A Catholic Thread, if you please

[Two Thumbs]

pity this turned into a bash thred..

 

[JoeB131]

pity this turned into a bash thred..

You don't think the Catholic Church deserves to be bashed?

"Oh we have to close down your parishes because no one is signing up to be a priest anymore and the few who do cost us millions of dollars because they're pedophiles!"

But they never think of things like 'Hey, let's let married men become priests!" Because that would solve both problems!

 

[Two Thumbs]

pity this turned into a bash thred..

You don't think the Catholic Church deserves to be bashed?

"Oh we have to close down your parishes because no one is signing up to be a priest anymore and the few who do cost us millions of dollars because they're pedophiles!"

But they never think of things like 'Hey, let's let married men become priests!" Because that would solve both problems!

we have thousands of CC bash threads, and you've posted in all of them.

This isn't about the church, this is about the op and having a non-asshole discussion.

guess your hate and bigotry won out.

 

[JoeB131]

we have thousands of CC bash threads, and you've posted in all of them.

This isn't about the church, this is about the op and having a non-asshole discussion.

guess your hate and bigotry won out.

I talked about the elephant in the middle of the room.

The Catholic Church is having to close parishes for the following three reasons.

1) People are less inclined to believe in an Imaginary Sky Fairy
2) Less people are signing up for Holy Orders than they used to.
3) The people who are tend to be deviants who are costing the church a lot of money in settlements for sexual misconduct.

Now, they can't do anything about #1, the happy day when we all stop believing in magic pixies in the sky isn't coming fast enough, but we'll get there eventually.

But #2 and #3 are totally in their control, they've known about this problem for decades and they aren't doing anything about it. and the fix is simple. Let men who are married and have normal sexual libidos become priests. Problem solved. I know a lot of married guys who are very devout and would make better priests than the clowns they have, but they put family first.

Now, something that no one likes to talk about when looking at these numbers is how the gay rights movement has hurt Clergy Enrollment. You see, back in the bad old days, when little Billy started singing show tunes or Little Sally started liking scented candles, they shipped their asses off to a seminary or convent before they got too gay.

Today, people are like, "Well, the Kid is gay!"

This is nothing but a positive development! I just think of all the nasty nuns I had in grammar school who would have greatly benefited from some k.d. lang albums and sensible shoes.

You know, instead of tormenting small children because they couldn't deal with their own demons.

 

[Two Thumbs]

yes yes

thread derailed by the hate squad.

thanks, I'm sure the op will never ask descent people on the net for help b/c now he knows the hate patrol with pour in.

 

[JoeB131]

yes yes

thread derailed by the hate squad.

thanks, I'm sure the op will never ask descent people on the net for help b/c now he knows the hate patrol with pour in.

Hey, what I suggested was very helpful, probably more help than I want to give them.

You see, I would like to see nothing better than the Catholic Church vanish. It won't be missed.

But if they are serious about saving their little club of Bronze Age Superstitions, they could make some of the changes I suggested.

 

[Meriweather]

Bullshit. The Catholic CHurch was worse because unlike other organizations, it moved the offending clerics around and hid them without warning the parishes what they were getting into. A priest could confess to being a kiddy diddler, and they'd give him 10 Hail Marys and keep his confidences.

Wrong. Schools (and everyone else) did the exact same thing, because back then psychiatrists believed that seminars and a change of location could actually solve pedophilia tendencies. It was the Catholic Church who informed the psychiatric community, "This does not work, does not work, does not work." The end result was the psychiatric community changed their conclusion to pedophilia cannot be cured. Do the research, learn the whole story. The Catholic Church immediately went to work cleaning house. So stop acting like what was changed and stopped now a generation ago here in the United States is and was an ongoing practice.

Here's the thing. It makes your Sky Man awfully needy, doesn't it? He needs to be worshiped all the time, merely doing good works and being a good person isn't enough.

Again, Jeff Dahmer confesses his sins and gets into heaven and Ann Frank burns in Hell for rejecting Jesus.

This is all sorts of messed up. Good thing I rejected it at an early age.

No. On all accounts. First of all, putting God first is not need on God's account, it is advice to humanity that putting God first can result into everything else falling more easily into place. Second, it is non-Catholic Christians (most of whom don't even believe in Confession) who place Dahmer in heaven. Catholic teaching is that only God knows whether Jeff Dahmer had a sincere change of heart or sincere lip service with no change of heart. Further, Catholic teaching does not place any Jew in hell because as it pointed out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Jews also have an everlasting covenant with God. God does not go back on His covenants.

Perhaps consider the possibility your hatred of a mean nun and then all things Catholic has resulted in a thinking/perspective may be "all sorts of messed up." Since this thinking/perspective doesn't even begin with factual Catholic teachings, it can't end with correct conclusions.

 

[Meriweather]

But I have a proposal to place before the Board. Rather than have a top-down "solution," with the Bishop picking the surviving parishes, why not throw it back at the congregations? Challenge each congregation (minus its current Pastor) to either present a viable plan for continuing in existence, or agree to consolidate and liquidate its assets. Then the priests would act as Free Agents to serve the surviving parishes as the arrangements can be worked out.

That's a nice idea, it won't happen though.

The church has been in control of things for centuries, and it won't give an ounce of power to the flock. (flocks are lead, not asked where they want to go)

good luck though.

and look out for your older members that want to attend but can't make the longer trips, a visit from a member would brighten their days.

Keep in mind each parish has its own Church Council, budget, etc. They can (and in some cases have) gone to their diocese with a proposal to keep a parish open. I don't believe a diocese ever acts without input from parishes. This does not mean every parish is in favor of the end result. I do know of parishes that remain open as "satellites." In other words, staff and deacons run the daily operation with a visiting (or traveling) priest coming in to celebrate Sunday Mass and hear confessions.

As was said earlier, married priests may help with the priest shortage. I would further recommend that if parishes have a shortage of male deacons, allow women to at least be ordained as deacons. There is at least an early tradition of this. Current Catholic thought is that being ordained a deacon is considered a step towards the priesthood--and this step would not be open to women. Even so, I believe the Church could be open to female deacons while retaining a male priesthood.

 

[JoeB131]

Wrong. Schools (and everyone else) did the exact same thing, because back then psychiatrists believed that seminars and a change of location could actually solve pedophilia tendencies. It was the Catholic Church who informed the psychiatric community, "This does not work, does not work, does not work." The end result was the psychiatric community changed their conclusion to pedophilia cannot be cured. Do the research, learn the whole story. The Catholic Church immediately went to work cleaning house. So stop acting like what was changed and stopped now a generation ago here in the United States is and was an ongoing practice.

Oh, bullshit. Again, I knew back in the 1970's that the priests were all queers... and so did everyone else. Only a Catholic Fanatic would look at the pedophile scandal and try to make the Church the "hero".

No. On all accounts. First of all, putting God first is not need on God's account, it is advice to humanity that putting God first can result into everything else falling more easily into place. Second, it is non-Catholic Christians (most of whom don't even believe in Confession) who place Dahmer in heaven. Catholic teaching is that only God knows whether Jeff Dahmer had a sincere change of heart or sincere lip service with no change of heart. Further, Catholic teaching does not place any Jew in hell because as it pointed out in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Jews also have an everlasting covenant with God. God does not go back on His covenants.

Actually, it was the Catholic teaching - at least before I went over the wall and got out - that if you confessed your sins on your deathbed and got absolution, you get a "Get out of Hell Free" card. And the whole "forgiving the Jews" thing, that only came in after Vatican II when Catholics were a little embarrassed about how they aided and abetted the Holocaust. Before that, it was "The Jews Killed Jesus!" (Someone needs to go back and Edit John's Gospel, it didn't get the memo!)

Perhaps consider the possibility your hatred of a mean nun and then all things Catholic has resulted in a thinking/perspective may be "all sorts of messed up." Since this thinking/perspective doesn't even begin with factual Catholic teachings, it can't end with correct conclusions.

again, 12 years of Catholic School, and I figured out it was bullshit by the 5th grade. The one where Sister Mary Butch said it was okay to drown babies in the flood because they were "wicked" babies. (No, seriously, she actually said that. The woman was scary as shit, but then again, most religious fanatics are.)

 

[Meriweather]

Oh, bullshit. Again, I knew back in the 1970's that the priests were all queers... and so did everyone else. Only a Catholic Fanatic would look at the pedophile scandal and try to make the Church the "hero"

Again, a generation ago...1979+25 (years in a generation)=2004. Add ten years to the changes that were made beginning then and we have 2014. You are speaking of events that took place a generation ago. Return to the present.

Actually, it was the Catholic teaching - at least before I went over the wall and got out - that if you confessed your sins on your deathbed and got absolution, you get a "Get out of Hell Free" card. And the whole "forgiving the Jews" thing, that only came in after Vatican II when Catholics were a little embarrassed about how they aided and abetted the Holocaust. Before that, it was "The Jews Killed Jesus!" (Someone needs to go back and Edit John's Gospel, it didn't get the memo!)

Even then, the teaching was confession with a sincere heart. Confession was never a lip service get out of hell free card. True repentance has always been taught. The heart, not the lips, is what is judged by God. Catholics also worked against the Holocaust...Jews will confirm this.

again, 12 years of Catholic School, and I figured out it was bullshit by the 5th grade. The one where Sister Mary Butch said it was okay to drown babies in the flood because they were "wicked" babies. (No, seriously, she actually said that. The woman was scary as shit, but then again, most religious fanatics are.)

None of the priests and nuns in the parish in which I grew up held the philosophy you say your teacher taught you. Maybe it's time to get past one mis-statement by one person and do an actual study on a planet-wide flood (along with a study of the Hebrew language and culture of the time).

 

[Windparadox]

pity this turned into a bash thred..

`
You expected courtesy here? BTW, I'm not Catholic but attended both a Catholic high school and a Jesuit run university. I learned a lot about Catholicism and have nothing but praise for the nuns and priests I interacted with there. My oldest daughter concerted to Catholicism when she was 16. I didn't stand in her way.

 

[JoeB131]

Again, a generation ago...1979+25 (years in a generation)=2004. Add ten years to the changes that were made beginning then and we have 2014. You are speaking of events that took place a generation ago. Return to the present.

Yeah, the thing is, the only reason why the Catholic church 'fixed' the problem is because after years of covering it up, it was just costing them too much money.

Even then, the teaching was confession with a sincere heart. Confession was never a lip service get out of hell free card. True repentance has always been taught. The heart, not the lips, is what is judged by God.

Okay, here's the problem with that. Let's say that Jeffery Dahmner was SINCERELY sorry he killed and ate those guys? He should still get into heaven? Suppose he runs into one of those guys up there? I mean, most of them were gay and they probably aren't getting into Catholic Heaven because God Hates Fags. But let's say one of them did, that would be awkward, wouldn't it?

Okay, to take the Snark down a level, I really don't give a shit how sincerely sorry Chef Jeff was. He killed 19 people. One of them was a child. If you really think there's an afterlife where we are punished for our sins, then we should be punished for them. Not get a "Get out of Hell Card" because you were really sorry and said some prayers.

Catholics also worked against the Holocaust...Jews will confirm this.

And then you have guys like Pius XII and Fr. Josef Tizo (Leader of the Nazi puppet state of Slovakia) who open aided and abetted. Look, here's the reality. European Catholics were happy to throw Jews into the concentration camps because for 2000 years, the Church told them the Jews betrayed and killed their God-man. Just because they are really, really sorry about it later doesn't impress.

None of the priests and nuns in the parish in which I grew up held the philosophy you say your teacher taught you. Maybe it's time to get past one mis-statement by one person and do an actual study on a planet-wide flood (along with a study of the Hebrew language and culture of the time).

Actually, in defense of Sister Mary Butch, as retarded as what she said was, it wasn't any LESS retarded than the things said all the time by other religious apologists. There's really no good reason to drown babies because you don't like what their parents did.

But because I'm a fair guy, "It's okay for God to drown every baby in the world because _________." (Fill in your answer here.)

Of course, a planet wide flood is impossible. There's just not that much water and even if there was, everything would die. All the animals would have frozen to death once they were elevated to a height of mountaintops. all the plant life would have died and they wouldn't be able to grow new plants because the soil would be salinated by the oceans. We could also talk about the problem of inbreeding when ever species is descended from a single pair.

But the moral teaching of the Flood Story is "God gave man free will, and when he didn't like the choices they made, he drowned every last one of them save 8 people. Even the babies!"

That's really kind of messed up. But let's draw some cute cartoons of giraffes on the ark, that will make it all more kid-friendly.

 

[Meriweather]

Okay, here's the problem

Are people brain organisms whose brains prompt us to eat, sleep, use our limbs and imagine things? Or, does our being encompass a spirit that acts and directs information our brain feeds us? If we are just brain, when the brain dies, that is it. If our being includes spirit, then it makes sense to care for that spirit as we would our physical bodies. Are you all brain, Joe--or does spirit enter into your being?

I get that you are angry and hate the Catholic Church. Nothing I have said or ever will say is going to change that. You are trapped in a quicksand where you can't get past Sister Mary painting a picture of a flood sent to kill babies. It won't allow you to study information we now have about the flood. It won't allow you to study the culture and the lessons it was trying to convey with a flood as its setting.

You will search hungrily for stories about mistakes some Catholics made during the Holocaust, ignoring the great number of Catholics who were also victims of Concentration Camps and the Holocaust; ignoring stories of Catholics AND the Pope fighting against it.

Not one of us--not one person, not ANY organization is perfect or mistake free. However, most of us do try our best with the information we have and how we perceive it. Then, there is true hatred and evil in this world. Most do their best to avoid it or beat it back as best they can.

This thread is asking us to comment on whether Catholic parishes should be given the opportunity to remain open. I believe there is a way for parishes to remain open--IF the parishes are willing to step up and do what is needed. If parishes feel full-time priests are needed to do this, then they deserve to be closed. The parish is its people, not its priest(s). It is not easy, but a parish can get by with a visiting priest.

 

[Windparadox]

`
`
Correct me if I'm wrong but Diocesan run parishes are under the jurisdiction of either a Bishop or Archbishop. Dwindling parish enrollment and participation, leastways in urban areas, are affected the most. In Milwaukee at least, many parishes have merged, most with lay participation. K-8 schools however, has seen a spike in enrollment, particularly among the Latino's and Asians.

 

[JoeB131]

Are people brain organisms whose brains prompt us to eat, sleep, use our limbs and imagine things? Or, does our being encompass a spirit that acts and directs information our brain feeds us? If we are just brain, when the brain dies, that is it. If our being includes spirit, then it makes sense to care for that spirit as we would our physical bodies. Are you all brain, Joe--or does spirit enter into your being?

Brain can be scientifically measured and quantified. In fact, we have these scientists called neurologists, who spend a lot of time studying the brain.

"Spirit" can not.

I get that you are angry and hate the Catholic Church. Nothing I have said or ever will say is going to change that. You are trapped in a quicksand where you can't get past Sister Mary painting a picture of a flood sent to kill babies. It won't allow you to study information we now have about the flood. It won't allow you to study the culture and the lessons it was trying to convey with a flood as its setting.

The flood is a MYTH. It's not even an original story, it's a ripoff of older Mesopotamian stories. This guy did a great discussion of that, and it has a bit with Peter Capaldi at the end which is hilarious.



Naw, I'm not mad because the nun said God was cool with drowning babies. Mostly because the Flood is a myth, and there weren't any babies. (something even the Brothers who taught me in HS admitted.)

I'm pissed off because another nun said God had a reason for my mom to die of cancer after suffering for a year.

You will search hungrily for stories about mistakes some Catholics made during the Holocaust, ignoring the great number of Catholics who were also victims of Concentration Camps and the Holocaust; ignoring stories of Catholics AND the Pope fighting against it.

I don't have to search that hard. The point was, the Pope could have denounced Hitler and Mussolini and threatened any Catholic who fought for them with excommunication. He didn't. Because he was more worried about the Communists winning.

Not one of us--not one person, not ANY organization is perfect or mistake free. However, most of us do try our best with the information we have and how we perceive it. Then, there is true hatred and evil in this world. Most do their best to avoid it or beat it back as best they can.

Nice sentiments, but what if the organization itself is evil? The Catholic church as been a government and acted like a government for most of its history.

 

[Meriweather]

what if the organization itself is evil?

What if it is not? What if, for you, it's simply a handy target for bitterness and anger?

 

[Two Thumbs]

But I have a proposal to place before the Board. Rather than have a top-down "solution," with the Bishop picking the surviving parishes, why not throw it back at the congregations? Challenge each congregation (minus its current Pastor) to either present a viable plan for continuing in existence, or agree to consolidate and liquidate its assets. Then the priests would act as Free Agents to serve the surviving parishes as the arrangements can be worked out.

That's a nice idea, it won't happen though.

The church has been in control of things for centuries, and it won't give an ounce of power to the flock. (flocks are lead, not asked where they want to go)

good luck though.

and look out for your older members that want to attend but can't make the longer trips, a visit from a member would brighten their days.

Keep in mind each parish has its own Church Council, budget, etc. They can (and in some cases have) gone to their diocese with a proposal to keep a parish open. I don't believe a diocese ever acts without input from parishes. This does not mean every parish is in favor of the end result. I do know of parishes that remain open as "satellites." In other words, staff and deacons run the daily operation with a visiting (or traveling) priest coming in to celebrate Sunday Mass and hear confessions.

As was said earlier, married priests may help with the priest shortage. I would further recommend that if parishes have a shortage of male deacons, allow women to at least be ordained as deacons. There is at least an early tradition of this. Current Catholic thought is that being ordained a deacon is considered a step towards the priesthood--and this step would not be open to women. Even so, I believe the Church could be open to female deacons while retaining a male priesthood.

all of which sounds reasonable.

I've never known the church to see or bow to reason.

I fully expect the church to go under, clinging to it's medieval ideals to the bitter end.

And honestly, there are far to many churches, since the invention of the auto, there's no need to have so many.

 

[Two Thumbs]

pity this turned into a bash thred..

`
You expected courtesy here? BTW, I'm not Catholic but attended both a Catholic high school and a Jesuit run university. I learned a lot about Catholicism and have nothing but praise for the nuns and priests I interacted with there. My oldest daughter concerted to Catholicism when she was 16. I didn't stand in her way.

I expected to get passed page 2 before the derail.


Live and learn. Hate overpowers manners.

 

[SobieskiSavedEurope]

Again, a generation ago...1979+25 (years in a generation)=2004. Add ten years to the changes that were made beginning then and we have 2014. You are speaking of events that took place a generation ago. Return to the present.

Yeah, the thing is, the only reason why the Catholic church 'fixed' the problem is because after years of covering it up, it was just costing them too much money.

Even then, the teaching was confession with a sincere heart. Confession was never a lip service get out of hell free card. True repentance has always been taught. The heart, not the lips, is what is judged by God.

Okay, here's the problem with that. Let's say that Jeffery Dahmner was SINCERELY sorry he killed and ate those guys? He should still get into heaven? Suppose he runs into one of those guys up there? I mean, most of them were gay and they probably aren't getting into Catholic Heaven because God Hates Fags. But let's say one of them did, that would be awkward, wouldn't it?

Okay, to take the Snark down a level, I really don't give a shit how sincerely sorry Chef Jeff was. He killed 19 people. One of them was a child. If you really think there's an afterlife where we are punished for our sins, then we should be punished for them. Not get a "Get out of Hell Card" because you were really sorry and said some prayers.

Catholics also worked against the Holocaust...Jews will confirm this.

And then you have guys like Pius XII and Fr. Josef Tizo (Leader of the Nazi puppet state of Slovakia) who open aided and abetted. Look, here's the reality. European Catholics were happy to throw Jews into the concentration camps because for 2000 years, the Church told them the Jews betrayed and killed their God-man. Just because they are really, really sorry about it later doesn't impress.

None of the priests and nuns in the parish in which I grew up held the philosophy you say your teacher taught you. Maybe it's time to get past one mis-statement by one person and do an actual study on a planet-wide flood (along with a study of the Hebrew language and culture of the time).

Actually, in defense of Sister Mary Butch, as retarded as what she said was, it wasn't any LESS retarded than the things said all the time by other religious apologists. There's really no good reason to drown babies because you don't like what their parents did.

But because I'm a fair guy, "It's okay for God to drown every baby in the world because _________." (Fill in your answer here.)

Of course, a planet wide flood is impossible. There's just not that much water and even if there was, everything would die. All the animals would have frozen to death once they were elevated to a height of mountaintops. all the plant life would have died and they wouldn't be able to grow new plants because the soil would be salinated by the oceans. We could also talk about the problem of inbreeding when ever species is descended from a single pair.

But the moral teaching of the Flood Story is "God gave man free will, and when he didn't like the choices they made, he drowned every last one of them save 8 people. Even the babies!"

That's really kind of messed up. But let's draw some cute cartoons of giraffes on the ark, that will make it all more kid-friendly.

Germany was dominantly Protestant, in fact they also killed millions of Catholics in Poland, including thousands of Catholic priests.

 

[JoeB131]

What if it is not? What if, for you, it's simply a handy target for bitterness and anger?

Naw, I've got a lot more handy targets for that...

But sorry, the Catholic Church engaged in...

The Burning of Witches
Torture of Heretics
Crusades
Suppression of Scientific Knowledge (Galileo and Bruno)
Opposition to vaccinations (They called them the "Devil's Needles")
Molestation of children
Collaboration with Fascism and other dictators

Sorry, the Catholic Church is an evil organization.

Did anyone else notice the resemblence between Benedict XVI and Palpatine from the Star Wars Movie?