Act of War

[ChrisL]

That is not going to happen here. Those days are OVER. So no, you aren't being very realistic.

That is foolish IF you are referring to them attacking us on our soil.........which is what I was referring to.............

As far as the Russians............they are already carpet bombing which I have stated long ago before Russia showed up...............

I had a conversation with my brother before the War in Iraq......................I told him that we would be better off blowing the hell out of them from the air and then leave them in the dust...............HE WAS ANGRY WITH ME...............Said that WE WOULD THEN BE NO BETTER THAN THEM.................I told him I didn't care..............I said it's WAR...........and IT'S THEM OR US..........................and that we would get drawn into a long campaign and GET STUCK THERE................This happening as his son was going into the Marines..............................who is now 80% disabled due to an IED in Iraq.......................

I was right then............and I"m right now............

We are not going to bomb them into oblivion because too many "innocents" would be killed, the rest of the world would be in an uproar, etc. Also, you are not going to kill ALL the terrorists. In fact, you might even create MORE of them.

I never said it would kill them all...........It would kill a lot of them...............and most of Northern Syria has been vacated by the civilians a long time ago...........They are ghost towns in most cases..........

and to the other part of the equation............world in an UPROAR...............that is exactly why PC will destroy us.

And the children whose parents are killed are going to turn to terrorism, and their children and their children. You are just perpetuating a cycle of violence.

Losing a parent does not make them a terrorist. It's how they are treated after the loss. If they are treated as unwanted baggage in refugee camps and eventually tossed on streets to fend for themselves, they will most probably either end up in a terrorist or criminal organization. We may not want them in our country but terrorist organization welcome them.

Give me a break. That is a bunch of horse manure. Don't be silly. I thought you were one of the anti war on terror posters? Suddenly you are for this type of thing? Are you nuts?

 

[ChrisL]

So, instead of leaving their own young men of fighting age there to fight, we are going to take them here and in other countries as "refugees" who are trying to escape the war, and we have some who want to send OUR guys over to that hellhole to be captured, tortured and murdered by those nuts? Not my son.

77% of the Syrian refugees are women and children
Stretching Facts on Syrian Refugees

So? There are plenty of men then too. Stop making excuses. Our guys should not go over there to fight for these people and their bullshit anymore.

 

[ChrisL]

My son can't believe what cowards these guys are, targeting young people going out to enjoy themselves at a concert, and I think the story of the young American girl who was killed there really struck home for him. He couldn't believe they would kill a young attractive woman like that and thinks they are most cowardly, and he is absolutely right, but I still don't want him to ever have to go over there to that shit hole and die for those assholes.

He would be ill advised to go in under the current administration.............who fight wars with politics instead of military strategy..............even under Bush they engaged in rules that gave advantage to the enemy............................

We have no reason for long occupations there..............kill the fire ant beds and leave before the dust settles...................It is how it should have been fought from the onset..............

NOBODY should be "advised" to go there. Let the Arabs and the others deal with it. We don't want to send our kids over there to die, and for WHAT?

It doesn't end there..............It is the Paris attack......................It is the Mali attack....................and unless we want to see that on a regular basis we had better deal with it.......................It needs to end...............and not by the ROE's...........................and not by long invasions......................

They will continue to do these types of attacks and we will pay a price for ignoring it again.................It's not a matter of if...........but when.................This fight will come to our shores until we drop the hammer on them...............History of the Caliphate...........shows this will happen.............History repeats..........

It's NOT going to happen that way, and you know it. It will be another long and drawn out war where thousands of OUR guys get killed for nothing. Everything is not always up to US to solve. Let someone else deal with it. What we should be doing is working on a way to completely wash our hands of that entire region. We should be not accepting immigrants from that part of the world, no embassies, no trying to make "friends." They say the problem is that we keep "interfering." So? Let's stop interfering Let them work out ALL of their own problems unless they DIRECTLY affect the United States in a very negative way.

The US is now blowing the hell out the remaining Syrian oil field while the Russians are launching missiles at over a dozen targets in Syria. These air strikes will cripple ISIS but they won't drive them out of the country of them. I think eventually, the Russians are going to put enough troops on the ground to secure most of Syria. This will make Russia a major player in Middle East.

Oh sure, all of this is going to be so effective. how foolish.

 

[ChrisL]

That is not going to happen here. Those days are OVER. So no, you aren't being very realistic.

That is foolish IF you are referring to them attacking us on our soil.........which is what I was referring to.............

As far as the Russians............they are already carpet bombing which I have stated long ago before Russia showed up...............

I had a conversation with my brother before the War in Iraq......................I told him that we would be better off blowing the hell out of them from the air and then leave them in the dust...............HE WAS ANGRY WITH ME...............Said that WE WOULD THEN BE NO BETTER THAN THEM.................I told him I didn't care..............I said it's WAR...........and IT'S THEM OR US..........................and that we would get drawn into a long campaign and GET STUCK THERE................This happening as his son was going into the Marines..............................who is now 80% disabled due to an IED in Iraq.......................

I was right then............and I"m right now............

We are not going to bomb them into oblivion because too many "innocents" would be killed, the rest of the world would be in an uproar, etc. Also, you are not going to kill ALL the terrorists. In fact, you might even create MORE of them.

I never said it would kill them all...........It would kill a lot of them...............and most of Northern Syria has been vacated by the civilians a long time ago...........They are ghost towns in most cases..........

and to the other part of the equation............world in an UPROAR...............that is exactly why PC will destroy us.

And the children whose parents are killed are going to turn to terrorism, and their children and their children. You are just perpetuating a cycle of violence.

Losing a parent does not make them a terrorist. It's how they are treated after the loss. If they are treated as unwanted baggage in refugee camps and eventually tossed on streets to fend for themselves, they will most probably either end up in a terrorist or criminal organization. We may not want them in our country but terrorist organization welcome them.

What's your angle here anyway? No, we don't need any more immigrants. It is counterproductive and only hurts and takes resources away from our own people. Let their neighbors take care of their needs and problems. I don't care anymore. I just don't.

 

[Flopper]

So, instead of leaving their own young men of fighting age there to fight, we are going to take them here and in other countries as "refugees" who are trying to escape the war, and we have some who want to send OUR guys over to that hellhole to be captured, tortured and murdered by those nuts? Not my son.

77% of the Syrian refugees are women and children
Stretching Facts on Syrian Refugees

So? There are plenty of men then too. Stop making excuses. Our guys should not go over there to fight for these people and their bullshit anymore.

That 23% includes many that not fit for military service. BTW, I'm not saying we should send troops over there. We should support the troops doing the fighting, not do the fighting for them.

 

[ChrisL]

So, instead of leaving their own young men of fighting age there to fight, we are going to take them here and in other countries as "refugees" who are trying to escape the war, and we have some who want to send OUR guys over to that hellhole to be captured, tortured and murdered by those nuts? Not my son.

77% of the Syrian refugees are women and children
Stretching Facts on Syrian Refugees

So? There are plenty of men then too. Stop making excuses. Our guys should not go over there to fight for these people and their bullshit anymore.

That 23% includes many that not fit military service. BTW, I'm not saying we should send troops over there. We should support those the troops doing the fighting, not do the fighting for them.

I don't care. I'm weary and tired of this. I think most of us are. We don't want to deal with other people's problems anymore and want to take care of our own. Fuck them! Every fucking thing that goes wrong in this world is not, nor should it be, OUR responsibility or our problem. I'm sick of it . . . really.

 

[Flopper]

So, instead of leaving their own young men of fighting age there to fight, we are going to take them here and in other countries as "refugees" who are trying to escape the war, and we have some who want to send OUR guys over to that hellhole to be captured, tortured and murdered by those nuts? Not my son.

77% of the Syrian refugees are women and children
Stretching Facts on Syrian Refugees

So? There are plenty of men then too. Stop making excuses. Our guys should not go over there to fight for these people and their bullshit anymore.

That 23% includes many that not fit for military service. BTW, I'm not saying we should send troops over there. We should support the troops doing the fighting, not do the fighting for them.

I doubt you see many of the 3 million refugees from Syria, only 1500 since 2011 have ended up in the US. The biggest obstacle is transportation. They can't afford to come to the US and must have a sponsor willing to reimburse the US government.

 

[Flopper]

So, instead of leaving their own young men of fighting age there to fight, we are going to take them here and in other countries as "refugees" who are trying to escape the war, and we have some who want to send OUR guys over to that hellhole to be captured, tortured and murdered by those nuts? Not my son.

77% of the Syrian refugees are women and children
Stretching Facts on Syrian Refugees

So? There are plenty of men then too. Stop making excuses. Our guys should not go over there to fight for these people and their bullshit anymore.

That 23% includes many that not fit military service. BTW, I'm not saying we should send troops over there. We should support those the troops doing the fighting, not do the fighting for them.

I don't care. I'm weary and tired of this. I think most of us are. We don't want to deal with other people's problems anymore and want to take care of our own. Fuck them! Every fucking thing that goes wrong in this world is not, nor should it be, OUR responsibility or our problem. I'm sick of it . . . really.

It's Saturday night. Have a beer and forget about it which is what I'm going to do.

 

[frigidweirdo]

So what will the French do? Go into Syria and Iraq? And then what? This has been done already, and it just got worse.

The French don't exactly have a very good military record.

My guess is that the US should do it for them, like Obama did to remove Gaddafi for them.

Yeah, the US have a great record, I mean, Vietnam, the French lost there, the US lost there.

Iraq, initial success followed by ineptitude and total and utter failure.

Vietnam was lost due to Rules of engagement and not being fought as a War.............You Shall not pass this line..............Kinda like Gandolf in the Lord of the Rings in the Cave...............Had we massed forces and pushed North there was no way in hell the Viet Cong could have stopped us........Their max force was only about 250,000 men..............We fought by their rules which is why they never capitulated....................

In Iraq, the armies were destroyed...........the Civil War.......Sunni versus Shiite..........Then Petraeous changed the tactics and had a lot of it calmed down via the intel and rapid strikes against the insurgence.................The country was taken and held until another political Midget took the office................and hauled ass without leaving even a intel contingent...................

Politicians lose Wars............left to their strategies with sufficient forces............and without the ROEs you would have seen a different outcome.........refusal to Fight these battles as War.........like WWII is why this shit has grown.

Vietnam was lost because or arrogance, and also because the army didn't understand that things had changed.

Yep, in Iraq the forces were destroyed. Hardly surprising seeing how weak the Iraqi army was. However it was lost in the post war period by arrogance and ineptitude, again.

You say the country was taken and held. But it wasn't held. It was having problems all the time. What would become ISIS was battering away until 2007 when a surge was needed to stop this happening. Then under BUSH, the withdrawal started to happen. So, even you think that there was ineptitude from Bush. He started a withdrawal and signed a document that led to the withdrawal. AND the Republicans supported this. McCain who criticized Obama for withdrawing, yet supported and pushed for the withdrawal. Go figure.

Yeah, politicians lose wars. Politicians elected by the people. People lose wars by electing morons. Look at the current situation, Trump, I mean, COME THE FUCK ON.

Vietnam was lost because the Politicians didn't listen...............Generals wanted to invade the North and choke the shit out of their supplies and home base...............................again..............what the fuck would we have done after with it.....................

Petraeous strategy was working...........and did cut down the violence there.............................I never was for full occupation or nation building..............but refuse to tuck tail and run from it as Obama did when these regions were payed for in blood..........................We should not have went cold turkey there...........................

Most of the ones who served feel betrayed by America............saying they would never go back and take those places again...............only to be handed over............

I've talked to many who have stated that.

Politicians don't listen? The politicians listen. What they're listening to are people who don't understand and want short term goals.
Look at Trump. He's parroting those who are nationalistic and simplistic, and he's doing well. The message is simple, far too simple, but too many people connect to simplistic messages.

He's not saying anything novel or new. He's merely putting it together in a package and being loud about it, and people seem to like that.

You keep blaming Obama for running away. But Bush started the running away. Bush gave Obama the written document that said he had to run away and EVERYONE supported it in politics, like 66% of Republicans supported it. So why would he do any different? HE WAS LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE.

So those who served feel betrayed? Why did they not feel betrayed that they being sent to places like Iraq, under equipped and in a bad situation made by the C-in-C Bush?

 

[eagle1462010]

The French don't exactly have a very good military record.

My guess is that the US should do it for them, like Obama did to remove Gaddafi for them.

Yeah, the US have a great record, I mean, Vietnam, the French lost there, the US lost there.

Iraq, initial success followed by ineptitude and total and utter failure.

Vietnam was lost due to Rules of engagement and not being fought as a War.............You Shall not pass this line..............Kinda like Gandolf in the Lord of the Rings in the Cave...............Had we massed forces and pushed North there was no way in hell the Viet Cong could have stopped us........Their max force was only about 250,000 men..............We fought by their rules which is why they never capitulated....................

In Iraq, the armies were destroyed...........the Civil War.......Sunni versus Shiite..........Then Petraeous changed the tactics and had a lot of it calmed down via the intel and rapid strikes against the insurgence.................The country was taken and held until another political Midget took the office................and hauled ass without leaving even a intel contingent...................

Politicians lose Wars............left to their strategies with sufficient forces............and without the ROEs you would have seen a different outcome.........refusal to Fight these battles as War.........like WWII is why this shit has grown.

Vietnam was lost because or arrogance, and also because the army didn't understand that things had changed.

Yep, in Iraq the forces were destroyed. Hardly surprising seeing how weak the Iraqi army was. However it was lost in the post war period by arrogance and ineptitude, again.

You say the country was taken and held. But it wasn't held. It was having problems all the time. What would become ISIS was battering away until 2007 when a surge was needed to stop this happening. Then under BUSH, the withdrawal started to happen. So, even you think that there was ineptitude from Bush. He started a withdrawal and signed a document that led to the withdrawal. AND the Republicans supported this. McCain who criticized Obama for withdrawing, yet supported and pushed for the withdrawal. Go figure.

Yeah, politicians lose wars. Politicians elected by the people. People lose wars by electing morons. Look at the current situation, Trump, I mean, COME THE FUCK ON.

Vietnam was lost because the Politicians didn't listen...............Generals wanted to invade the North and choke the shit out of their supplies and home base...............................again..............what the fuck would we have done after with it.....................

Petraeous strategy was working...........and did cut down the violence there.............................I never was for full occupation or nation building..............but refuse to tuck tail and run from it as Obama did when these regions were payed for in blood..........................We should not have went cold turkey there...........................

Most of the ones who served feel betrayed by America............saying they would never go back and take those places again...............only to be handed over............

I've talked to many who have stated that.

Politicians don't listen? The politicians listen. What they're listening to are people who don't understand and want short term goals.
Look at Trump. He's parroting those who are nationalistic and simplistic, and he's doing well. The message is simple, far too simple, but too many people connect to simplistic messages.

He's not saying anything novel or new. He's merely putting it together in a package and being loud about it, and people seem to like that.

You keep blaming Obama for running away. But Bush started the running away. Bush gave Obama the written document that said he had to run away and EVERYONE supported it in politics, like 66% of Republicans supported it. So why would he do any different? HE WAS LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE.

So those who served feel betrayed? Why did they not feel betrayed that they being sent to places like Iraq, under equipped and in a bad situation made by the C-in-C Bush?

The final withdrawal was subject to change based on the situation in Iraq.................In the Presidential debates with Romney he said as much.............The final decision came from the new Commander N Chief and he made the final call....................which was wrong.............He ran on getting us out of there............He had no intentions of staying if the situation wasn't ready for it................You can't blame Bush for decisions he made.............

You talk about the old argument of Under equipped troops............but forget as part of the Budget cuts under Clinton we had a MASSIVE reduction in Military Budget, bases , and troops..........Your side was all too happy to Cheer for that then............and HYPOCRITES LATER for saying we sent men off to War without the equipment after CUTTING THE FUCK OUT OF THE MILITARY...............That is nothing more than circle jerk politics.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yeah, the US have a great record, I mean, Vietnam, the French lost there, the US lost there.

Iraq, initial success followed by ineptitude and total and utter failure.

Vietnam was lost due to Rules of engagement and not being fought as a War.............You Shall not pass this line..............Kinda like Gandolf in the Lord of the Rings in the Cave...............Had we massed forces and pushed North there was no way in hell the Viet Cong could have stopped us........Their max force was only about 250,000 men..............We fought by their rules which is why they never capitulated....................

In Iraq, the armies were destroyed...........the Civil War.......Sunni versus Shiite..........Then Petraeous changed the tactics and had a lot of it calmed down via the intel and rapid strikes against the insurgence.................The country was taken and held until another political Midget took the office................and hauled ass without leaving even a intel contingent...................

Politicians lose Wars............left to their strategies with sufficient forces............and without the ROEs you would have seen a different outcome.........refusal to Fight these battles as War.........like WWII is why this shit has grown.

Vietnam was lost because or arrogance, and also because the army didn't understand that things had changed.

Yep, in Iraq the forces were destroyed. Hardly surprising seeing how weak the Iraqi army was. However it was lost in the post war period by arrogance and ineptitude, again.

You say the country was taken and held. But it wasn't held. It was having problems all the time. What would become ISIS was battering away until 2007 when a surge was needed to stop this happening. Then under BUSH, the withdrawal started to happen. So, even you think that there was ineptitude from Bush. He started a withdrawal and signed a document that led to the withdrawal. AND the Republicans supported this. McCain who criticized Obama for withdrawing, yet supported and pushed for the withdrawal. Go figure.

Yeah, politicians lose wars. Politicians elected by the people. People lose wars by electing morons. Look at the current situation, Trump, I mean, COME THE FUCK ON.

Vietnam was lost because the Politicians didn't listen...............Generals wanted to invade the North and choke the shit out of their supplies and home base...............................again..............what the fuck would we have done after with it.....................

Petraeous strategy was working...........and did cut down the violence there.............................I never was for full occupation or nation building..............but refuse to tuck tail and run from it as Obama did when these regions were payed for in blood..........................We should not have went cold turkey there...........................

Most of the ones who served feel betrayed by America............saying they would never go back and take those places again...............only to be handed over............

I've talked to many who have stated that.

Politicians don't listen? The politicians listen. What they're listening to are people who don't understand and want short term goals.
Look at Trump. He's parroting those who are nationalistic and simplistic, and he's doing well. The message is simple, far too simple, but too many people connect to simplistic messages.

He's not saying anything novel or new. He's merely putting it together in a package and being loud about it, and people seem to like that.

You keep blaming Obama for running away. But Bush started the running away. Bush gave Obama the written document that said he had to run away and EVERYONE supported it in politics, like 66% of Republicans supported it. So why would he do any different? HE WAS LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE.

So those who served feel betrayed? Why did they not feel betrayed that they being sent to places like Iraq, under equipped and in a bad situation made by the C-in-C Bush?

The final withdrawal was subject to change based on the situation in Iraq.................In the Presidential debates with Romney he said as much.............The final decision came from the new Commander N Chief and he made the final call....................which was wrong.............He ran on getting us out of there............He had no intentions of staying if the situation wasn't ready for it................You can't blame Bush for decisions he made.............

You talk about the old argument of Under equipped troops............but forget as part of the Budget cuts under Clinton we had a MASSIVE reduction in Military Budget, bases , and troops..........Your side was all too happy to Cheer for that then............and HYPOCRITES LATER for saying we sent men off to War without the equipment after CUTTING THE FUCK OUT OF THE MILITARY...............That is nothing more than circle jerk politics.

So you think it was a wrong call. Is it wrong when 66% of REPUBLICANS thought he should have withdrawn? Isn't that called LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE?

So, you're saying he shouldn't have listened to the people? 75% of them thought he should have withdrawn, and he should have just gone with the 25% because..... because 6 years later and with hindsight, the Republicans changed their mind?

Maybe BUSH shouldn't have gone into Iraq. Yeah, loads of people supported that too. Mainly because of his own propaganda about nuclear programs and WMD which was bullshit and they knew it.

 

[eagle1462010]

Vietnam was lost due to Rules of engagement and not being fought as a War.............You Shall not pass this line..............Kinda like Gandolf in the Lord of the Rings in the Cave...............Had we massed forces and pushed North there was no way in hell the Viet Cong could have stopped us........Their max force was only about 250,000 men..............We fought by their rules which is why they never capitulated....................

In Iraq, the armies were destroyed...........the Civil War.......Sunni versus Shiite..........Then Petraeous changed the tactics and had a lot of it calmed down via the intel and rapid strikes against the insurgence.................The country was taken and held until another political Midget took the office................and hauled ass without leaving even a intel contingent...................

Politicians lose Wars............left to their strategies with sufficient forces............and without the ROEs you would have seen a different outcome.........refusal to Fight these battles as War.........like WWII is why this shit has grown.

Vietnam was lost because or arrogance, and also because the army didn't understand that things had changed.

Yep, in Iraq the forces were destroyed. Hardly surprising seeing how weak the Iraqi army was. However it was lost in the post war period by arrogance and ineptitude, again.

You say the country was taken and held. But it wasn't held. It was having problems all the time. What would become ISIS was battering away until 2007 when a surge was needed to stop this happening. Then under BUSH, the withdrawal started to happen. So, even you think that there was ineptitude from Bush. He started a withdrawal and signed a document that led to the withdrawal. AND the Republicans supported this. McCain who criticized Obama for withdrawing, yet supported and pushed for the withdrawal. Go figure.

Yeah, politicians lose wars. Politicians elected by the people. People lose wars by electing morons. Look at the current situation, Trump, I mean, COME THE FUCK ON.

Vietnam was lost because the Politicians didn't listen...............Generals wanted to invade the North and choke the shit out of their supplies and home base...............................again..............what the fuck would we have done after with it.....................

Petraeous strategy was working...........and did cut down the violence there.............................I never was for full occupation or nation building..............but refuse to tuck tail and run from it as Obama did when these regions were payed for in blood..........................We should not have went cold turkey there...........................

Most of the ones who served feel betrayed by America............saying they would never go back and take those places again...............only to be handed over............

I've talked to many who have stated that.

Politicians don't listen? The politicians listen. What they're listening to are people who don't understand and want short term goals.
Look at Trump. He's parroting those who are nationalistic and simplistic, and he's doing well. The message is simple, far too simple, but too many people connect to simplistic messages.

He's not saying anything novel or new. He's merely putting it together in a package and being loud about it, and people seem to like that.

You keep blaming Obama for running away. But Bush started the running away. Bush gave Obama the written document that said he had to run away and EVERYONE supported it in politics, like 66% of Republicans supported it. So why would he do any different? HE WAS LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE.

So those who served feel betrayed? Why did they not feel betrayed that they being sent to places like Iraq, under equipped and in a bad situation made by the C-in-C Bush?

The final withdrawal was subject to change based on the situation in Iraq.................In the Presidential debates with Romney he said as much.............The final decision came from the new Commander N Chief and he made the final call....................which was wrong.............He ran on getting us out of there............He had no intentions of staying if the situation wasn't ready for it................You can't blame Bush for decisions he made.............

You talk about the old argument of Under equipped troops............but forget as part of the Budget cuts under Clinton we had a MASSIVE reduction in Military Budget, bases , and troops..........Your side was all too happy to Cheer for that then............and HYPOCRITES LATER for saying we sent men off to War without the equipment after CUTTING THE FUCK OUT OF THE MILITARY...............That is nothing more than circle jerk politics.

So you think it was a wrong call. Is it wrong when 66% of REPUBLICANS thought he should have withdrawn? Isn't that called LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE?

So, you're saying he shouldn't have listened to the people? 75% of them thought he should have withdrawn, and he should have just gone with the 25% because..... because 6 years later and with hindsight, the Republicans changed their mind?

Maybe BUSH shouldn't have gone into Iraq. Yeah, loads of people supported that too. Mainly because of his own propaganda about nuclear programs and WMD which was bullshit and they knew it.

You are the party of excuses.........................Did Obama have to ASK FOR PERMISSION FROM BUSH to make a DECISION IN IRAQ....................Kinda like HEY DAD CAN I USE YOUR CAR..............................

He made the FINAL CALL.....................and you try to lay that Blame on Bush.....................In the Debates Romney warned against it..............AS DID BUSH if the situation warranted a longer stay....................They were RIGHT and Obama was WRONG...................At a minimum our intel network should have remained.........................

Your side is good at blaming OTHERS for your own SHITTY DECISIONS.................Kinda like Libya..........and the Gun Running to Syria out of there..........How'd that TURN OUT............YEMEN......EGYPT..............Obama is a FAILURE.

 

[Tehon]

It is such an odd defense that defies logic. Bush created a democracy in Iraq that was a success until Obama lost it. How did Obama lose it. By not going against public opinion and breaking the contract that Bush signed with his successful democratic government. The contract that was supposed to prove Bush's success, that Iraq could stand on its own. Some of you must be contortionists in your day job.

 

[ChrisL]

Vietnam was lost due to Rules of engagement and not being fought as a War.............You Shall not pass this line..............Kinda like Gandolf in the Lord of the Rings in the Cave...............Had we massed forces and pushed North there was no way in hell the Viet Cong could have stopped us........Their max force was only about 250,000 men..............We fought by their rules which is why they never capitulated....................

In Iraq, the armies were destroyed...........the Civil War.......Sunni versus Shiite..........Then Petraeous changed the tactics and had a lot of it calmed down via the intel and rapid strikes against the insurgence.................The country was taken and held until another political Midget took the office................and hauled ass without leaving even a intel contingent...................

Politicians lose Wars............left to their strategies with sufficient forces............and without the ROEs you would have seen a different outcome.........refusal to Fight these battles as War.........like WWII is why this shit has grown.

Vietnam was lost because or arrogance, and also because the army didn't understand that things had changed.

Yep, in Iraq the forces were destroyed. Hardly surprising seeing how weak the Iraqi army was. However it was lost in the post war period by arrogance and ineptitude, again.

You say the country was taken and held. But it wasn't held. It was having problems all the time. What would become ISIS was battering away until 2007 when a surge was needed to stop this happening. Then under BUSH, the withdrawal started to happen. So, even you think that there was ineptitude from Bush. He started a withdrawal and signed a document that led to the withdrawal. AND the Republicans supported this. McCain who criticized Obama for withdrawing, yet supported and pushed for the withdrawal. Go figure.

Yeah, politicians lose wars. Politicians elected by the people. People lose wars by electing morons. Look at the current situation, Trump, I mean, COME THE FUCK ON.

Vietnam was lost because the Politicians didn't listen...............Generals wanted to invade the North and choke the shit out of their supplies and home base...............................again..............what the fuck would we have done after with it.....................

Petraeous strategy was working...........and did cut down the violence there.............................I never was for full occupation or nation building..............but refuse to tuck tail and run from it as Obama did when these regions were payed for in blood..........................We should not have went cold turkey there...........................

Most of the ones who served feel betrayed by America............saying they would never go back and take those places again...............only to be handed over............

I've talked to many who have stated that.

Politicians don't listen? The politicians listen. What they're listening to are people who don't understand and want short term goals.
Look at Trump. He's parroting those who are nationalistic and simplistic, and he's doing well. The message is simple, far too simple, but too many people connect to simplistic messages.

He's not saying anything novel or new. He's merely putting it together in a package and being loud about it, and people seem to like that.

You keep blaming Obama for running away. But Bush started the running away. Bush gave Obama the written document that said he had to run away and EVERYONE supported it in politics, like 66% of Republicans supported it. So why would he do any different? HE WAS LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE.

So those who served feel betrayed? Why did they not feel betrayed that they being sent to places like Iraq, under equipped and in a bad situation made by the C-in-C Bush?

The final withdrawal was subject to change based on the situation in Iraq.................In the Presidential debates with Romney he said as much.............The final decision came from the new Commander N Chief and he made the final call....................which was wrong.............He ran on getting us out of there............He had no intentions of staying if the situation wasn't ready for it................You can't blame Bush for decisions he made.............

You talk about the old argument of Under equipped troops............but forget as part of the Budget cuts under Clinton we had a MASSIVE reduction in Military Budget, bases , and troops..........Your side was all too happy to Cheer for that then............and HYPOCRITES LATER for saying we sent men off to War without the equipment after CUTTING THE FUCK OUT OF THE MILITARY...............That is nothing more than circle jerk politics.

So you think it was a wrong call. Is it wrong when 66% of REPUBLICANS thought he should have withdrawn? Isn't that called LISTENING TO THE PEOPLE?

So, you're saying he shouldn't have listened to the people? 75% of them thought he should have withdrawn, and he should have just gone with the 25% because..... because 6 years later and with hindsight, the Republicans changed their mind?

Maybe BUSH shouldn't have gone into Iraq. Yeah, loads of people supported that too. Mainly because of his own propaganda about nuclear programs and WMD which was bullshit and they knew it.

Well he did, and that is now water under the bridge. Time to start dealing with our current problems. The blame game isn't solving any problems, that's for damn sure.

 

[eagle1462010]

It is such an odd defense that defies logic. Bush created a democracy in Iraq that was a success until Obama lost it. How did Obama lose it. By not going against public opinion and breaking the contract that Bush signed with his successful democratic government. The contract that was supposed to prove Bush's success, that Iraq could stand on its own. Some of you must be contortionists in your day job.

The Battle ongoing was a Civil War between Shiite and Sunni factions...........left over Baathist from Saddam wanting the power back..................The agreement Bush was going for was DEPENDENT ON THE CONDITIONS ON THE GROUND.........................Bush stated that pulling out cold turkey would result in what has happened.....................As did Romney.............................

It doesn't matter..................Obama made the FINAL CALL and it was HIS FINAL DECISION...............I'm sick of the blame game..........because the Generals, Intel agencies, Bush, Romney ALL SAID THIS WOULD HAPPEN when Obama made the final decision......................

He didn't listen.........he wanted out at the first opportunity.............and hauled ass...................knowing later if the place went to shit that he could hold up the document and say IT'S BUSHES FAULT................What a hell of a CNC......................pffft.....................

I got out of the military because I couldn't stomach anymore of Clinton after Somalia.................and now the chump Obama is even worse to our people in Uniform...........

The BUCK STOPS with WHO MADE THE CALL..............and it WAS WRONG.

 

[Tehon]

It is such an odd defense that defies logic. Bush created a democracy in Iraq that was a success until Obama lost it. How did Obama lose it. By not going against public opinion and breaking the contract that Bush signed with his successful democratic government. The contract that was supposed to prove Bush's success, that Iraq could stand on its own. Some of you must be contortionists in your day job.

The Battle ongoing was a Civil War between Shiite and Sunni factions...........left over Baathist from Saddam wanting the power back..................The agreement Bush was going for was DEPENDENT ON THE CONDITIONS ON THE GROUND.........................Bush stated that pulling out cold turkey would result in what has happened.....................As did Romney.............................

It doesn't matter..................Obama made the FINAL CALL and it was HIS FINAL DECISION...............I'm sick of the blame game..........because the Generals, Intel agencies, Bush, Romney ALL SAID THIS WOULD HAPPEN when Obama made the final decision......................

He didn't listen.........he wanted out at the first opportunity.............and hauled ass...................knowing later if the place went to shit that he could hold up the document and say IT'S BUSHES FAULT................What a hell of a CNC......................pffft.....................

I got out of the military because I couldn't stomach anymore of Clinton after Somalia.................and now the chump Obama is even worse to our people in Uniform...........

The BUCK STOPS with WHO MADE THE CALL..............and it WAS WRONG.

Was this written into the agreement that he signed?

The agreement Bush was going for was DEPENDENT ON THE CONDITIONS ON THE GROUND

 

[eagle1462010]

Obama ignored general’s pleas to keep American forces in Iraq

Retired ArmyGen. John M. Keane, who advised commanders in Iraq and helped devise the 2007 troop surge, remembers how the U.S. achieved victory by working hand in hand with Iraq’s military to conduct pinpoint strikes. The effort was so effective that the enemy, al Qaeda in Iraq, stopped sending killers into Iraq because they would be exterminated quickly.

In December 2011, the U.S. military left, led by Army Gen. Lloyd J. Austin III, who now heads U.S. Central Command and is studying options for helping Baghdad survive absent U.S. combat troops.

The exit was completed too soon, Gen. Keane said.

“As we pulled out of Iraq in 2011, just think of this: We had all our intelligence capability there. We knew where the enemy was. We were flying drones. We’re tracking them. We have signals intelligence pouring in, eavesdropping on phone conversations and the rest of it. We’re using our counterterrorism forces to bang against these guys. We’re passing that information to the Iraqis so their commandos can do the same,” the general said.

After several years of reduced violence in Iraq, the Americans left.

“On a given day in 2011, that screen went blank. The Iraqis went from a significant amount of intelligence on what was taking place, and the screen just went blank,” Gen. Keane said.

 

[Care4all]

It is such an odd defense that defies logic. Bush created a democracy in Iraq that was a success until Obama lost it. How did Obama lose it. By not going against public opinion and breaking the contract that Bush signed with his successful democratic government. The contract that was supposed to prove Bush's success, that Iraq could stand on its own. Some of you must be contortionists in your day job.

The Battle ongoing was a Civil War between Shiite and Sunni factions...........left over Baathist from Saddam wanting the power back..................The agreement Bush was going for was DEPENDENT ON THE CONDITIONS ON THE GROUND.........................Bush stated that pulling out cold turkey would result in what has happened.....................As did Romney.............................

It doesn't matter..................Obama made the FINAL CALL and it was HIS FINAL DECISION...............I'm sick of the blame game..........because the Generals, Intel agencies, Bush, Romney ALL SAID THIS WOULD HAPPEN when Obama made the final decision......................

He didn't listen.........he wanted out at the first opportunity.............and hauled ass...................knowing later if the place went to shit that he could hold up the document and say IT'S BUSHES FAULT................What a hell of a CNC......................pffft.....................

I got out of the military because I couldn't stomach anymore of Clinton after Somalia.................and now the chump Obama is even worse to our people in Uniform...........

The BUCK STOPS with WHO MADE THE CALL..............and it WAS WRONG.

OK, so let's PRETEND like we kept troops there, and Obama did not bring them home....

what would that rosy scenario be??

how long would the troops be there? would any more troops be killed? would terrorism and jihadists disappear in the whole middle east? would shiites and sunnis be having a lovefest? And in Iran, Syria, Palestine, Egypt ,Libya, Somalia etc etc.... tell us how wonderful it would all be there in this PRETEND scenario.... I'm all ears....

 

[eagle1462010]

It is such an odd defense that defies logic. Bush created a democracy in Iraq that was a success until Obama lost it. How did Obama lose it. By not going against public opinion and breaking the contract that Bush signed with his successful democratic government. The contract that was supposed to prove Bush's success, that Iraq could stand on its own. Some of you must be contortionists in your day job.

The Battle ongoing was a Civil War between Shiite and Sunni factions...........left over Baathist from Saddam wanting the power back..................The agreement Bush was going for was DEPENDENT ON THE CONDITIONS ON THE GROUND.........................Bush stated that pulling out cold turkey would result in what has happened.....................As did Romney.............................

It doesn't matter..................Obama made the FINAL CALL and it was HIS FINAL DECISION...............I'm sick of the blame game..........because the Generals, Intel agencies, Bush, Romney ALL SAID THIS WOULD HAPPEN when Obama made the final decision......................

He didn't listen.........he wanted out at the first opportunity.............and hauled ass...................knowing later if the place went to shit that he could hold up the document and say IT'S BUSHES FAULT................What a hell of a CNC......................pffft.....................

I got out of the military because I couldn't stomach anymore of Clinton after Somalia.................and now the chump Obama is even worse to our people in Uniform...........

The BUCK STOPS with WHO MADE THE CALL..............and it WAS WRONG.

Was this written into the agreement that he signed?

The agreement Bush was going for was DEPENDENT ON THE CONDITIONS ON THE GROUND

New agreements can be made..............while he made the agreement Obama had no intention of trying to make a deal to ensure they wouldn't have the intel backing and support needed to assist the Iraqi's in holding the North...................Obama wanted out.............period.................the Iraqi's knew that............

Had Romney been in office............they would have cut another deal to CEMENT the VICTORY...........not CUT AND RUN.

 

[eagle1462010]

It is such an odd defense that defies logic. Bush created a democracy in Iraq that was a success until Obama lost it. How did Obama lose it. By not going against public opinion and breaking the contract that Bush signed with his successful democratic government. The contract that was supposed to prove Bush's success, that Iraq could stand on its own. Some of you must be contortionists in your day job.

The Battle ongoing was a Civil War between Shiite and Sunni factions...........left over Baathist from Saddam wanting the power back..................The agreement Bush was going for was DEPENDENT ON THE CONDITIONS ON THE GROUND.........................Bush stated that pulling out cold turkey would result in what has happened.....................As did Romney.............................

It doesn't matter..................Obama made the FINAL CALL and it was HIS FINAL DECISION...............I'm sick of the blame game..........because the Generals, Intel agencies, Bush, Romney ALL SAID THIS WOULD HAPPEN when Obama made the final decision......................

He didn't listen.........he wanted out at the first opportunity.............and hauled ass...................knowing later if the place went to shit that he could hold up the document and say IT'S BUSHES FAULT................What a hell of a CNC......................pffft.....................

I got out of the military because I couldn't stomach anymore of Clinton after Somalia.................and now the chump Obama is even worse to our people in Uniform...........

The BUCK STOPS with WHO MADE THE CALL..............and it WAS WRONG.

OK, so let's PRETEND like we kept troops there, and Obama did not bring them home....

what would that rosy scenario be??

how long would the troops be there? would any more troops be killed? would terrorism and jihadists disappear in the whole middle east? would shiites and sunnis be having a lovefest? And in Iran, Syria, Palestine, Egypt ,Libya, Somalia etc etc.... tell us how wonderful it would all be there in this PRETEND scenario.... I'm all ears....

I'll let General Keane answer that for you.............