Affirmative Action

[Cousin Vinnie]

Originally posted by OCA
Its generational, the forefathers were racists and its as American as baseball and apple pie.

Yea, in the times of slavery and the civil rights movement.
Generational racism has mostly died out. People don't need to be taught from their parents how a large part of the black popultion act. They can watch the news, read the paper, or go out and witness it on their own.

But I still will stand by my original view: True racism isn't a big problem anymore. It's just seems like it because any injustice towards a black person is exaggerated and blown out of proportion mostly by the media. Too many blacks fail to realize that even though they are the minority (many growing up in a society that catered to "them" because of that simple fact), they still are going to face hardships in life and have conflicts/confrontations with white people that has nothing to do with their race.

 

[nycflasher]

Originally posted by Cousin Vinnie
Yea, in the times of slavery and the civil rights movement.
Generational racism has mostly died out. People don't need to be taught from their parents how a large part of the black popultion act. They can watch the news, read the paper, or go out and witness it on their own.

But I still will stand by my original view: True racism isn't a big problem anymore. It's just seems like it because any injustice towards a black person is exaggerated and blown out of proportion mostly by the media. Too many blacks fail to realize that even though they are the minority (many growing up in a society that catered to "them" because of that simple fact), they still are going to face hardships in life and have conflicts/confrontations with white people that has nothing to do with their race.

Racism isn't a big problem... have you heard of the War on Terror?
One of the main interests of Middle Eastern terrorists is to wipe out the Jews.
Genocide is definitely a racist policy isn't it?

As for racism in our country, a black man could not have sat next to my Grandfather at the lunch counter nor drank from the same water fountain 40-75 years ago. I hear racist comments almost EVERY day. As a country, we are still getting over this.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Yes, but institutionalized policies of racial discrimination don't help matters.

 

[Cousin Vinnie]

Originally posted by nycflasher
Racism isn't a big problem... have you heard of the War on Terror?
One of the main interests of Middle Eastern terrorists is to wipe out the Jews.
Genocide is definitely a racist policy isn't it?

As for racism in our country, a black man could not have sat next to my Grandfather at the lunch counter nor drank from the same water fountain 40-75 years ago. I hear racist comments almost EVERY day. As a country, we are still getting over this.

I apologize for that. My comments were really only referring to this country.

As I said before, the older generation is more likely to be racist because that's the way they were brought up and they're set in their ways. But let me say something about that too. Why is the older generation so racist? One of the main reasons is: Many of hese people came over from the old country with just the clothes on their back. They came to America to start a new life. They started from scratch--they were dirt poor most of them. Then, all of a sudden, blacks were fighting for anything and everything. These immigrants had no help. They were on their own, but the blacks just wanted things handed to them and the immigrants didn't like this. It led to a lot of racial prejudice in families that stayed there for a long time (hence, generational racism).

As I said before, "Sticks and stones can break your bones, but words will never hurt you." There will always be racist comments, and from a white point of view, the many faults of the black population come to mind. Now, not all blacks are at fault and even they know that, but they're still going to occasionally make comments. They may call a person a ******. To me, there should be nothing wrong with that. Blacks call themselves *******. But whites can't call them ******* or they get sued up to wazoo. The problem is, blacks can only be ******* when it suits them. They're just dumb ******* when they need financial aid or when they need easier tests. Overall, though, to me, blacks in this country can be separated into two groups. There's just the plain old hard-working, honest, law-abiding blacks who deserve the term "African-American." Then there's the "*******" who are lazy, stupid, miserable, arrogant, and in many cases, "not" law-abiding. It's as simple as that, and these two groups of blacks couldn't be any more apparent. Like I said before, it's easy to tell by the way that person acts, dresses, talks, etc. what category the they fall under. Either way, what someone says about these people has no effect on them. You use words; other people use weapons. Puts it into perspective.

 

[nycflasher]

I wondered if you just meant in this country but, as I said the lingering, somewhat tenseaftermath of a former slaveholding/descriminating society is still present here.

As far as "types of blacks" as you put it, I find it more constructive to look at types of people. Nice people. Assholes. Murderers. Saints. Hard-working. Lazy. They come in all different shapes, sizes and colors.

I'm just not used to people talking about different types of black people. People are people. And some of them are black. But then again I live in a very integrated neighborhood, and not everyone does.

Overall, I feel that the more we talk about the differences between people the less emphasis we place on uniting people.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

nycflasher. So do you think having institutionalized policies of racial discrimination brings us together or divides us?

 

[nycflasher]

I don't know how I feel about affirmative action. I'm not aware of exactly how it works. I mean, I think if a certain segment of society has been shat on for a long period of time, enslaved even, then by all means of our government should try to help them get into the workforce, etc.

And certainly racial descrimination in the workplace sucks.

I also understand the criticism of Affirmative Action, as it tends to have the opposite effect intended in some cases.

And I'd hate to lose out on a job JUST because I'm "white". However, I'm 28 and have been working since I was 15 doing everything from washing dishes to managing a restaurant to coaching Little League to designing websites for IBM. And I have never had trouble getting a job, with due diligence and perserverance. So I only buy into that whole reverse descrimination argument so much...

Feel free to expound on the topic though. I'm curious to learn more.
Just so long as you can do it without calling me a pinko faggot. I'm pretty tired of that crap and so is everyone else I think.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Well, it is race based discrimination. It looks at people according race instead of individual merits, which is a racialist attitude. I thought we decided stuff like this was wrong during the 50's and 60's.

 

[nycflasher]

Hmm.
Have you had trouble getting a job?

EDIT: I should say that I have been out of work for three months, but not due to AA. More of an economic thing.

 

[Bern80]

I guess I see now why Jimmy made the post about mud slinging. This thread would be half as long if it weren't for that.

Seriously though if anyone here is interested in actually persuading anybody of anything the affect of resorting to name calling is to push away from your view rather than brin closer.

In attempt to get back on track My 2 cents on AA is:

It hurts minorities more than it helps. It gives equal rewards for less achievement. Let's assume for just a second that minorities are less inteligent on avg. How do you expect them to reach the standards white's have come to expect if we don't demand it of them. Again assuming my assumption is true, it may not be.

In some cases it also has the potential of taking opportunities away from those that have worked hard for them in favor of someone that maybe hasn't worked as hard.

 

[Reilly]

Originally posted by Bern80
Let's assume for just a second that minorities are less inteligent on avg. How do you expect them to reach the standards white's have come to expect if we don't demand it of them. Again assuming my assumption is true, it may not be.

If what you mean by more intelligent is better educated (on average), then perhaps you are right. Thus, after hundreds of years of slavery and discrimination (widespread at least into the 70's), the answer to your question "how do we expect them. . . " would be more money to minority businesses and business people, investment in inner city infrastructure and education, and perhaps, affirmative action. The vestiges of what we as country did to minorities persist unto this day and probably as far into the future as I will see. That kind of abuse is not rectified in a generation. While white citizens and their families were able to lay down roots, get solid paying jobs, and build communities, until recently minorities (especially african-americans) were denied all of these things.

Consider life as a game of monopoly. While everybody is playing by the same rules now (the limited effects of affirmative action aside) african-americans were only given a quarter of the amount of money that white people were given to start the game.

 

[mattskramer]

Originally posted by Reilly
If what you mean by more intelligent is better educated (on average), then perhaps you are right. Thus, after hundreds of years of slavery and discrimination (widespread at least into the 70's), the answer to your question "how do we expect them. . . " would be more money to minority businesses and business people, investment in inner city infrastructure and education, and perhaps, affirmative action. The vestiges of what we as country did to minorities persist unto this day and probably as far into the future as I will see. That kind of abuse is not rectified in a generation. While white citizens and their families were able to lay down roots, get solid paying jobs, and build communities, until recently minorities (especially african-americans) were denied all of these things.

Consider life as a game of monopoly. While everybody is playing by the same rules now (the limited effects of affirmative action aside) african-americans were only given a quarter of the amount of money that white people were given to start the game.

Slavery in the 70's?!? I disagree with your position. There have been decades of reverse discrimination and preferential treatment policies. There are all sorts of special programs and opportunities for Blacks and other "minorities".

Yeah, it is like a monopoly game and perhaps White were "given" a little extra money at the start. Yet, about the time we pass "Free Parking", the Blacks were given extra turns. By the way, life is not a Monopoly game. It isn't necessary for there to be a loser.

 

[Big D]

Any area in the world where whites are the majority, is where blacks live the best lives, with the highest standard of living.

Any area in the world where blacks are the majority, is where blacks live the worst lives, with the lowest standards of living.

 

[Reilly]

Discrimination into the 70s. Come on. You know what I meant.

As long as we are using the analogy, I think whites received more than a "little" extra money. We used african-americans to raid the bank and then tossed them in jail for it.

As for preferential treatment, yes there has been preferential treatment - jobs and college entrance. But how much effect has this preferential treatment had so far? Blacks in the sixties, seventies and perhaps to this day, live in the poorest neighborhoods with the worst school systems and highest crime rates. So for a little while they got preferential treatment for jobs (pretty much gone now). What use was it when so little of them had decent educations? This just meant that they were better able to compete for the lower paying jobs. As for education, it was great that they received some preferences there, but few had the means or the preparation to go to college anyway. That is the result of years of discrimination and constistent indifference.

I was able to go to college because I live somewhere where the public schools were good, the neighborhoods peaceful and the atmosphere conducive to advancement. I lived there because my parents both had college educations and they could afford to live in that neighborhood.

There is a nearly all black community in Brooklyn called Crown Heights where 70% of the residents live in public housing, only 6% of the residents have a college education, the public schools are a disaster, and I don't like walking on some of the streets at noon. What realistic chance do most kids growing up there really have - even with affirmative action. Affirmative action hasn't succeeded because nobody cares to invest in the poor situation that many blacks currently live in (this is a problem of indifference to the poor, not just blacks). If you were to get rid of affirmative action and instead invest heavily (much higher than has ever been attempted before) in inner city (and many rural areas) schools, job training, etc., I might agree with that. But since that will never happen, I say keep affirmative action around. That, plus several generations, will eventually help remedy the problem.

It may not be necessary that there are losers (not in a derogatory sense) in life, but we have pretty much set it up so that there are plenty of them.

 

[Reilly]

Originally posted by Big D
Any area in the world where whites are the majority, is where blacks live the best lives, with the highest standard of living.

Any area in the world where blacks are the majority, is where blacks live the worst lives, with the lowest standards of living.

Just shut the hell up. Nobody wants to listen to your ignorant, racist, pathetic crap.

 

[mattskramer]

Originally posted by Reilly
Discrimination into the 70s. Come on. You know what I meant.

As long as we are using the analogy, I think whites received more than a "little" extra money. We used african-americans to raid the bank and then tossed them in jail for it.

As for preferential treatment, yes there has been preferential treatment - jobs and college entrance. But how much effect has this preferential treatment had so far? Blacks in the sixties, seventies and perhaps to this day, live in the poorest neighborhoods with the worst school systems and highest crime rates. So for a little while they got preferential treatment for jobs (pretty much gone now). What use was it when so little of them had decent educations? This just meant that they were better able to compete for the lower paying jobs. As for education, it was great that they received some preferences there, but few had the means or the preparation to go to college anyway. That is the result of years of discrimination and constistent indifference.

I was able to go to college because I live somewhere where the public schools were good, the neighborhoods peaceful and the atmosphere conducive to advancement. I lived there because my parents both had college educations and they could afford to live in that neighborhood.

There is a nearly all black community in Brooklyn called Crown Heights where 70% of the residents live in public housing, only 6% of the residents have a college education, the public schools are a disaster, and I don't like walking on some of the streets at noon. What realistic chance do most kids growing up there really have - even with affirmative action. Affirmative action hasn't succeeded because nobody cares to invest in the poor situation that many blacks currently live in (this is a problem of indifference to the poor, not just blacks). If you were to get rid of affirmative action and instead invest heavily (much higher than has ever been attempted before) in inner city (and many rural areas) schools, job training, etc., I might agree with that. But since that will never happen, I say keep affirmative action around. That, plus several generations, will eventually help remedy the problem.

It may not be necessary that there are losers (not in a derogatory sense) in life, but we have pretty much set it up so that there are plenty of them.

"Blacks in the sixties, seventies and perhaps to this day, live in the poorest neighborhoods with the worst school systems and highest crime rates."

Why is that? Is it due to the parents' of the Blacks being poor because their parents were poor because their parents were slaves, or could it be due to conditioning. When they hear comments that they can't make it on effort...that the "man" keeps them down, they may have lost hope.

My grandparents were dirt poor farmers in south Texas. They lost over half their land in the "Great Depression". Then their house was robbed twice. Yet, they managed to work very hard and penny-pinch. They taught my dad the value of hard work, thrift, and self-reliance while they lived in one of the poorest, dirtiest, crime-ridden areas of Texas. My dad, their only son, left home after high school with only $1000 in his pocket. He worked for a while, served in the military, went to school on the GI bill (and on income he made working after school), graduated, got a job, was promoted several times, and retired wealthy. Blacks can do the same if we expect as much from them instead of conditioning them to accept handouts.

 

[Big D]

Originally posted by Reilly
Just shut the hell up. Nobody wants to listen to your ignorant, racist, pathetic crap.

Pointing out any area of the world where blacks are the majority and having great success, would have shut me up.

 

[Big D]

Originally posted by mattskramer
"Blacks in the sixties, seventies and perhaps to this day, live in the poorest neighborhoods with the worst school systems and highest crime rates."

Why is that?

The I.Q.'s of American Negroes are from 15 to 20 points, on average, below those of American Whites.

 

[nycflasher]

With Big D being the exception to the rule :

 

[mattskramer]

Originally posted by Big D
The I.Q.'s of American Negroes are from 15 to 20 points, on average, below those of American Whites.

I agree with Reilly in that Big D should shut up. I doubt that is IQ statistics are accurate. Yet, even if they are, why are they so? The present-day statistics are not the issue. The issue is WHY there is a discrepancy and what should be done about it. I think that it is more due to societal expectation and conditioned dependence than outright discrimination and past slavery. Blacks expect less of themselves and less for themselves. Assuming such is the case, we should teach Blacks, and people of all races, of the opportunities available.