Americans Buying AK47's Like They Are Going Out Of Style

[OODA_Loop]

These are worrying figures.

I worry less w/ a m1911.

 

[editec]

Some of us have lots of guns right now.

How are those guns working at keeping our government from becoming oppressive?

Is the presence of these guns actually working to keep this a free nation do you think?

I only ask because it looks to me like we're less FREE than ever.

 

[OODA_Loop]

Some of us have lots of guns right now.

How are those guns working at keeping our government from becoming oppressive?

Is the presence of these guns actually working to keep this a free nation do you think?

I only ask because it looks to me like we're less FREE than ever.

I have a fire extinguisher ready when I need it, but it doesnt keep fire from becoming opressive until I pull the pin.

 

[HomeInspect]

For home defense, I believe there is nothing better than a short barrel 12 gauge pump shot gun with 00 buck. The sound of chambering a round usually stops people in thier tracks. By the way, most studies like the one I listed below show that gun laws have little effect on homocide and suicide rates, but crime rates jump higher the stricter the guns laws. Crimes rates soared in Washington DC after the 1976 gun laws went into effect. The left likes to use stats comparing other countries. Well any twit would know that other countries are much different from the US. The USA has higher murder and suicide rates for a dozen reasons, and none of them have a thing to do with guns.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/29/weekinreview/29liptak.html?pagewanted=all

 

[zeke]

All this talk and worry about guns. Why don't we just come out and admit that, as long as the gun lovers can get their guns when they want them, that we here in America could give a shit less about how many people get killed accidently or commit suicide with a readily available weapon.

Going round and round over the exact same topic makes us look more stupid than our gun laws.

As an aside; a friend of mine with alcohol and martial problems was able to buy a gun from a private individual who knew of his mental state. He bought the weapon with two bullets. Who you think they were for? Fortunately he only used the one on himself.

Isn't it great that a person with a deranged mind can buy a weapon from an individual with no back ground checks? Gotta love guns in America. (the police did question the seller, nothing they could or would do) Could he have killed himself some other way? Sure he could. But he didn't. He chose the easy way out. Buy a gun from a private individual, shoot yourself. Lucky for the wife he didn't shoot her first.

Oh well enough of my little story of death and despair by gun. At least he could buy the gun without the interference of the hated guvmint. Good for him eh?

 

[eflatminor]

If the number of guns in the US halved tomorrow, the homicide rate would also drop...

This doesn't mean to me that if in one area more people buy guns, the homicide rate suddenly rockets.

Logical disconnect. Fail. Troll.

Ignored.

 

[Saigon]

If the number of guns in the US halved tomorrow, the homicide rate would also drop...

This doesn't mean to me that if in one area more people buy guns, the homicide rate suddenly rockets.

Logical disconnect. Fail. Troll.

Ignored.

No, it's perfectly logical.

Any change in the number of guns in society will effect change in the number of homicides, but that change may not happen overnight, and it may not occur in the same way in every state or city because there are so many other factors involved.

Was that difficult?

 

[Uncensored2008]

No, that is absolutely true.

Check the info below, and I hope you'll be big enough to discuss it.

The UK economic mobility rate is roughly the same as the US - virtually everything other country in Europe is higher.


Here is the Gini Index chart:

Gini coefficient - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apples and corned beef.

Gini isn't a valid measure economic mobility. Rather it is the dispersion rate of capital across the population strata.

Those who employ Gini in this way take the flawed perspective that the bottom 10% is a static sample - which has been repeatedly demonstrated in the USA as false.

The biggest flaw in the system is the sample size, which I am admittedly misusing terminology wise. If the upper tiers of wealth are more restrictive, the resultant Gini graph is actually more favorable. i.e. the absence of an upper middle class, as is the case in most of Europe, creates a more favorable coefficient. Concentrating wealth into a 1% elite with 99% in the lower echelons creates a statistically favorable chart over a 13% group with greater wealth. A greater percentage of GDP is held by the 13% than is held by the 1%, but that isn't really a bad thing as is portrayed.

As a percentage of GDP, the wealth held by the top 1% in the UK for instance, is significantly greater than what is held by the top 1% in the USA. (Yes, you'll argue the Royal family invalidates this, but why should they? They control a huge portion of the wealth and income of the nation.) When expanded to the top 10% - this reverses. Gini, being a mathematical formula, shows this as less dispersant, though common sense would say otherwise. So wealth in the USA is concentrated at the top, just as it is in the UK, but that top is a larger percentage of people than in the UK.

Further, though the bottom 90% in the USA control less percentage of GDP, resulting in a less desirable Gini coefficient, they have greater actual wealth than their lower 90% counterparts in the UK.

And here is the NY Times on economic mobility:

Harder for Americans to Rise From Lower Rungs

But many researchers have reached a conclusion that turns conventional wisdom on its head: Americans enjoy less economic mobility than their peers in Canada and much of Western Europe.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/u...-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all

The Times often engages in propaganda. This is such a case.

What the Times and many left of center groups note is the unsustainable situation of post WWII America. Europe was in shambles and American manufacturing had a veritable monopoly. The Unions rose to high ranks and demanded professional wages for menial labor.

Those days are gone. Much of the "economic mobility" that you point to is a farce. The station of a worker in Greece has not truly changed, if he was born in the 25th percentile of earners, he will die in the 25th percentile. However, as the NY Times points out, a child in Greece born in 1969 could expect to earn 52% more in adjusted wages than his father.

Timothy Noah: The Mobility Myth | The New Republic

Great, so that means Greece has a significantly superior economy, right? The model we should all follow, right?

Obviously the issue here is the Europe is not sustainable - oh, and neither is the USA. Europe is falling faster and harder than we are, but the USA is going to fall, and hard, as well. Because the economic mobility you tout is a farce, a ponzi scheme. The anemic GDP rise since 2009 isn't a fluke, it is evidence of an unsustainable economic base.

With the Austerity measures in Germany and even Finland, it seems a bit cynical to claim economic mobility, when by all indicators, the standard of living is destined to decline. Yes, the Nordic nations may well weather this storm, but Spain, Italy, France, and Greece, will not. There WILL be dramatically lower standards of living in those nations.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Would you want every household in New Orleans, St. Louis, Memphis and other cities with a lot of violent crime to have such weapons? You cannot compare Switzerland to the United States, they are not as violent a society as America. Canada has as many guns and much less violent crimes as America.

Then clearly the guns have nothing to do with it.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

To bad you used a anti gun source.
To bad you used a anti gun source.
2009
FBI — Crime Rates Fall in First Half of 2009

Individual crimes are also decreasing across the board:

Murder (down 10.0 percent);
Forcible rape (down 3.3 percent);
Robbery (down 6.5 percent);
Aggravated assault (down 3.2 percent);
Burglary (down 2.5 percent);
Larceny-theft (down 5.3 percent); and
Motor vehicle theft (down 18.7 percent).

Americans are afraid of this economy. As a result, they're getting locked and loaded. To wit: Jacquita Baker, a soft-spoken single mother from Kentwood, Mich., near Grand Rapids. She works as an administrative assistant at the Grand Rapids Urban League and is studying criminal justice at a local university. As of Monday, she's the proud owner of a shotgun. Why bear arms now? "The economy played a large part in my decision," says Baker, 27. "When people don't have jobs, they might go breaking into people's homes. I want to be safe in my home."

Read more: Boom in Gun Sales Fueled by Politics and the Economy - TIME

I didn't - but as we have seen repeatedly on this thread, you will absolutely not discuss this issue rationally under any circumstances.

You will not, and you can not, and we both know why that is.

We also know that you did not read the reports provided. Again, we both know why, and I would not expect you to read them.

I didn't - but as we have seen repeatedly on this thread, you will absolutely not discuss this issue rationally under any circumstances.

Yes you did use an anti gun source to support your position. As for not discussing the issue rationally I haven't a fucking clue to what and who you are talking about, unless you're saying facts are irrational? After my last post your part of the discussion should have been thanks for the FBI stats proving I was wrong and move along. But you came back.

We also know that you did not read the reports provided. Again, we both know why, and I would not expect you to read them

Again yes I did read your information, and again your reply after reading my FBI stats should be "sorry Reb I was wrong"

 

[Saigon]

Uncensored -

I have read your lengthy and intersting points, but I don't see much there that required further rebuttal than my original two points, especially as we have deviated a bit from the topic!!

- The US Gini Index shows clearly that in terms of economic wealth being concrentrated into the hands of a tiny minority, the US can only be compared with China, Brazil and Mexico.

Not a single western country sees so much wealth held by so few.

- The NY Times articles is backed by extensive research that I have read elsewhere. Economic mobility in the US is a myth. Though it is no better in the UK - it is better everywhere else in Europe.

I do agree Southern Europe is a bit of a mess, but France, Germany and Scandinavia are much better places to move up the economic ladder than the US is.

 

[M14 Shooter]

All this talk and worry about guns. Why don't we just come out and admit that, as long as the gun lovers can get their guns when they want them, that we here in America could give a shit less about how many people get killed accidently or commit suicide with a readily available weapon.

~300,000,000 guns in the US
~30,000 yearly gun-related deaths in the US, from all causes.
Thus
~0.01% of guns are involved in killing someone.

The sky is falling.

 

[Montrovant]

Obviously Saigon has never heard about Switzerland's gun laws. EVERY household is REQUIRED to own a weapon,they have the lowest crime rate in the world. Blows your little theory about more guns equals more crime out of the water.

Would you want every household in New Orleans, St. Louis, Memphis and other cities with a lot of violent crime to have such weapons? You cannot compare Switzerland to the United States, they are not as violent a society as America. Canada has as many guns and much less violent crimes as America.

This is wrong both intuitively and based on any stats I've seen on gun ownership. The US has close to 10x the population of Canada. Canada having as many guns, especially in private ownership, would require either the US having a low amount of ownership or Canadians owning many guns per person. Further, the stats I've seen place the US first as far as number of guns per person. So, more people, more guns per people, the US has more guns.

If you want to make bold statements like that, I think you should at least provide some links or say where you get your information from.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Some of us have lots of guns right now.

How are those guns working at keeping our government from becoming oppressive?

Is the presence of these guns actually working to keep this a free nation do you think?

I only ask because it looks to me like we're less FREE than ever.

We are and we aren't.

I live in the Los Angeles area, home in Orange County and I work in Norwalk, just East of LA. I take the Metrolink train to work, because the 91 freeway is the 5th circle of hell.

The trains are often a reenactment of Schindlers List, with paramilitary thugs demanding "Papers Please." This is something that I NEVER thought I would see in this country and is VERY disturbing to me.

At the same time though, the internet has opened up the freedom of expression in ways never before allowed. The censorship of the 60's and 70's that I grew up with is gone, or so ineffective as to be virtually gone.

Giving that the police have turned into paramilitary gangs, what an armed populace does is keep them at bay. They may control the public transportation, but they tread lightly in residential neighborhoods.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

All this talk and worry about guns. Why don't we just come out and admit that, as long as the gun lovers can get their guns when they want them, that we here in America could give a shit less about how many people get killed accidently or commit suicide with a readily available weapon.

~300,000,000 guns in the US
~30,000 yearly gun-related deaths in the US, from all causes.
Thus
~0.01% of guns are involved in killing someone.

The sky is falling.

You can actually break that down even further
How many were Suicides and how many were protecting self against an assault.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Uncensored -

I have read your lengthy and intersting points, but I don't see much there that required further rebuttal than my original two points, especially as we have deviated a bit from the topic!!

- The US Gini Index shows clearly that in terms of economic wealth being concrentrated into the hands of a tiny minority, the US can only be compared with China, Brazil and Mexico.

Not a single western country sees so much wealth held by so few.

- The NY Times articles is backed by extensive research that I have read elsewhere. Economic mobility in the US is a myth. Though it is no better in the UK - it is better everywhere else in Europe.

I do agree Southern Europe is a bit of a mess, but France, Germany and Scandinavia are much better places to move up the economic ladder than the US is.

While I don't agree with your perspective, it's nice to talk to someone who actually knows economics. I don't want to derail this thread, but at a later date I would enjoy further conversations.

 

[NoNukes]

Would you want every household in New Orleans, St. Louis, Memphis and other cities with a lot of violent crime to have such weapons? You cannot compare Switzerland to the United States, they are not as violent a society as America. Canada has as many guns and much less violent crimes as America.

Then clearly the guns have nothing to do with it.

Are you stupid enough to believe that?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Obviously Saigon has never heard about Switzerland's gun laws. EVERY household is REQUIRED to own a weapon,they have the lowest crime rate in the world. Blows your little theory about more guns equals more crime out of the water.

Would you want every household in New Orleans, St. Louis, Memphis and other cities with a lot of violent crime to have such weapons? You cannot compare Switzerland to the United States, they are not as violent a society as America. Canada has as many guns and much less violent crimes as America.

Are you saying people should not be allowed to defend themselves?

 

[NoNukes]

Obviously Saigon has never heard about Switzerland's gun laws. EVERY household is REQUIRED to own a weapon,they have the lowest crime rate in the world. Blows your little theory about more guns equals more crime out of the water.

Would you want every household in New Orleans, St. Louis, Memphis and other cities with a lot of violent crime to have such weapons? You cannot compare Switzerland to the United States, they are not as violent a society as America. Canada has as many guns and much less violent crimes as America.

This is wrong both intuitively and based on any stats I've seen on gun ownership. The US has close to 10x the population of Canada. Canada having as many guns, especially in private ownership, would require either the US having a low amount of ownership or Canadians owning many guns per person. Further, the stats I've seen place the US first as far as number of guns per person. So, more people, more guns per people, the US has more guns.

If you want to make bold statements like that, I think you should at least provide some links or say where you get your information from.

Look at the
Murder rates of Detroit and Windsor Ontario which are across the lake from each other.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Are you stupid enough to believe that?

Are you so stupid that you don't grasp it?