Americans Buying AK47's Like They Are Going Out Of Style

[bigrebnc1775]

Eflat -

The prevalence of guns is linked to the prevalence of deaths by gun shot wound.

This does not mean guns are the cause of crime.

I've ask you this several times

How many of those homicides were committed in cities or states with strict gun control laws?

I don't have those stats in my head, dude. There are studies done on this, but I don't have them here.

With not being in the US myself myself, the international stats have always been of more interest to me than the domestic ones.

Why not go and look yourself?

OMG without being in the U.S. personally you can't give me the stats but you can give me the stats of homicides in the U.S.? I TELL YOU WHAT TAKE YOUR STATS AND KEEP THEM IN YOUR COUNTRY.

 

[M14 Shooter]

I've ask you this several times

How many of those homicides were committed in cities or states with strict gun control laws?

I don't have those stats in my head, dude. There are studies done on this, but I don't have them here.

With not being in the US myself myself, the international stats have always been of more interest to me than the domestic ones.

Why not go and look yourself?

OMG without being in the U.S. personally you can't give me the stats but you can give me the stats of homicides in the U.S.? I TELL YOU WHAT TAKE YOUR STATS AND KEEP THEM IN YOUR COUNTRY.

Why is anyone still responding to this guy?
Obvious troll is obvious.

 

[gallantwarrior]

[. Most of Europe remains a vast underclass ruled by a wealthy elite.
.

Actually, no, that would be the US.

Where 1% of the population control 34% of the wealth, a number inconceivable in Europe.

Europe leads the US both in Gini Index distribution of wealth, and in economic mobility.

You just go on sucking down that liberal blue koolaide, buddy. You do seem to have the talking points down dead.

 

[Mr.Nick]

The homicide rate in the US is currently around 10 times the rate on most civilised countries....I wonder how high it would have to get before Americans would start to worry.

There have been something like three major mass murders in the US in the past fortnight - I suspect there will be more to come.

99.9% of gun crimes are carried out by those who are not legally authorized to own a gun...

I would say that gang shootings make up 95% of gun crimes....

There were six homicides in Chicago on Saturday, which is tied for the highest total of slayings on a single day in the city this year. - chicagotribune.com

All those homicides^ were committed in ghettos by gangbangers...

Overall, 346 people have been slain in Chicago in 2012, compared with 265 during the same period last year, an increase of about 31 percent. Shootings are also up by about 8 percent.

 

[eflatminor]

If the number of firearms among the US population is linked to the prevalence of death by firearm we would see an increasing firearm murder rate over time given that the prevalence of firearms has increased dramatically. Instead, we've seen a massive decrease in "deaths by gun shot wound".

This would be true if we were dealing with a neutral scenario in which no other factors existed except guns, but obviously other facts do exist.

These factors are more often the causes of crime - poverty, drug abuse, crime, urbanisation and so forth and so forth.

You are contradicting your own statements in which you drew a correlation between the number of firearms and the firearm murder rate. If other facts are "obvious" why did you make the statement "The more of them in society, the more innocent Americans that end up dead."

Admit you made a false statement and maybe reasonable discourse could be possible.

Although murder rates in the US have dropped, in some states we have also seen the number of murders involving guns increase.

A few states. The vast majority have dropped. The overall has dropped dramatically...again, while the number of firearms has increased dramatically.

But wait, you said "in some states"...How does that square with "What is key here is to look at studies conducted across a wide range of areas and years, and to establish patterns"?

Not very consistent of you.

...there seems to be a universal rule that households in which guns are kept are more likely to experience death by gun shot wound than households without guns.

And what proof do you have of that?

Also, at least at an international level - the linking of gun possession to homicide rates is virtually statistically perfect. By which I mean, if we rank 20 developed countries by gun ownership, and again by homicide, the two tables are virtually identical.

Link?

Bottom line, you've still not proven that the prevalence of guns is linked to increased deaths of gun-related causes. And you still haven't explained how deaths by gun-related causes has decreased dramatically while the prevalence of guns has increased.

"The more of them in society, the more innocent Americans that end up dead."

You said it, not me.

Your constant deflection is nothing new here. Sad, but not surprising.

I call troll.

 

[Saigon]

Sorry. Take a statistics class.

Says the person who claimed blacks consituted "less than 5%" of the US population.

 

[Saigon]

Why is anyone still responding to this guy?
Obvious troll is obvious.

We disagree on this, so therefore I must be a troll?

Should I be accusing of trolling as well?

We've seen almost every excuse possible for not discussing his topic rationally -and your response here is just another of those.

 

[Saigon]

99.9% of gun crimes are carried out by those who are not legally authorized to own a gun...

I would say that gang shootings make up 95% of gun crimes....

Then you'd be wrong.

Particularly with accidental death, the guns are largely legaly owned, but also a fair number of homicides are committed in otherwise law abiding familes.

I don't have the stats on this here, but I will try to find them and post them.

 

[Saigon]

You just go on sucking down that liberal blue koolaide, buddy. You do seem to have the talking points down dead.

Another excuse to avoid the topic.

I'm not in the US and don't hear propaganda from either side - but I suspect many, many of the responses on this thread are straight out of the NRA playbook on How To Avoid Discussing Statistics.

 

[Saigon]

Europe leads the US both in Gini Index distribution of wealth, and in economic mobility.

Bullshit.

Economic mobility is virtually non-existent in most of Europe, in my experience. Where you are born is where you stay.

No, that is absolutely true.

Check the info below, and I hope you'll be big enough to discuss it.

The UK economic mobility rate is roughly the same as the US - virtually everything other country in Europe is higher.


Here is the Gini Index chart:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

And here is the NY Times on economic mobility:

Harder for Americans to Rise From Lower Rungs

But many researchers have reached a conclusion that turns conventional wisdom on its head: Americans enjoy less economic mobility than their peers in Canada and much of Western Europe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/u...-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all

 

[Saigon]

Eflat -

I stand by my original statement - "the more guns in society, the more Americans end up dead" - because when we compare gun ownership internationally, we see a strong correlation between gun ownership and homicide statistics.

If the number of guns in the US halved tomorrow, the homicide rate would also drop, because it would limit the ability of killers to kill (particularly large numbers of victims).

This doesn't mean to me that if in one area more people buy guns, the homicide rate suddenly rockets. It's a general, long term pattern.

There are studies which back up the other points you mention them, and I will find and link them when I have time, inasmuch as they can be linked. I know one that you'll need to pay to download or buy the book. But I can absolutely point you in the direction of the research, which I have read.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Guns are nothing more than a tool chosen by a person in order to carry out their intention to kill. A person intent upon killing another, or others, can and will find a way to do so, whether guns are available, or not.
However, firearms in the hands of responsible citizens serve as a definitive deterrent to those who would prey upon the unarmed.

I agree.

Guns enable a person wishing to commit murder to do so quickly and effectively. They do not cause the person to commit the crime.

The problem being that an angry man with a knife may kill one person - an angry man with a gun can kill 10.

Semsible laws will ensure vulnerable groups on society, such as those with psychological problems, are not able to acquire weapons because of this.

Well except recently in China ( a Country with strict gun laws) a man with a knife killed 9 people before being stopped. Here in the States a man with a knife went on a spree, stabbed 2 people and would have continued exce4pt a man with a handgun stopped him. With the average time of response it takes for Police to get some where in major city knife, bat crowbar, ext attacks can kill a lot more then one person before a cop shows up.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

99.9% of gun crimes are carried out by those who are not legally authorized to own a gun...

I would say that gang shootings make up 95% of gun crimes....

Then you'd be wrong.

Particularly with accidental death, the guns are largely legaly owned, but also a fair number of homicides are committed in otherwise law abiding familes.

I don't have the stats on this here, but I will try to find them and post them.

Less then 1000 deaths a year to accidental gun usage. Only like 10 to 12 thousand murders a year with fire arms. With between 200 million and 300 Million weapons in private hands, millions more in the hands of police security and the military those statistics are almost zero. Of the 12000 murders the vast majority were committed with illegally acquired firearms.

Latest figure I saw was 49 percent of the US House Holds have firearms in them. And yet less then 1000 accidental deaths and only 12000 murders by firearm. The numbers do not support your claims.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Eflat -

I stand by my original statement - "the more guns in society, the more Americans end up dead" - because when we compare gun ownership internationally, we see a strong correlation between gun ownership and homicide statistics.

If the number of guns in the US halved tomorrow, the homicide rate would also drop, because it would limit the ability of killers to kill (particularly large numbers of victims).

This doesn't mean to me that if in one area more people buy guns, the homicide rate suddenly rockets. It's a general, long term pattern.

There are studies which back up the other points you mention them, and I will find and link them when I have time, inasmuch as they can be linked. I know one that you'll need to pay to download or buy the book. But I can absolutely point you in the direction of the research, which I have read.

200 to 300 million firearms in private hands, 49 percent of households with firearms yet less then 1000 accidental shootings and 12000 murders committed with firearms. Do the math.

 

[Saigon]

Ok, here are the first research papers - from Harvard:

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

2. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.

We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.

3. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Homicide - Firearms Research - Harvard Injury Control Research Center - Harvard School of Public Health

Read them and weep.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Ok, here are the first research papers - from Harvard:

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

2. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.

We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.

3. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Homicide - Firearms Research - Harvard Injury Control Research Center - Harvard School of Public Health

Read them and weep.

To bad you used a anti gun source.
2009
FBI — Crime Rates Fall in First Half of 2009

Individual crimes are also decreasing across the board:

Murder (down 10.0 percent);
Forcible rape (down 3.3 percent);
Robbery (down 6.5 percent);
Aggravated assault (down 3.2 percent);
Burglary (down 2.5 percent);
Larceny-theft (down 5.3 percent); and
Motor vehicle theft (down 18.7 percent).

Americans are afraid of this economy. As a result, they're getting locked and loaded. To wit: Jacquita Baker, a soft-spoken single mother from Kentwood, Mich., near Grand Rapids. She works as an administrative assistant at the Grand Rapids Urban League and is studying criminal justice at a local university. As of Monday, she's the proud owner of a shotgun. Why bear arms now? "The economy played a large part in my decision," says Baker, 27. "When people don't have jobs, they might go breaking into people's homes. I want to be safe in my home."

Read more: Boom in Gun Sales Fueled by Politics and the Economy - TIME

 

[bigrebnc1775]

2nd amendment offers protection from just the kind of government we have now

If you read the Declaration of Independence you’ll see what the self-appointed “ruling-class” elites want us to forget. The second amendment has never been about hunting and self-protection, but protection against the type of government we are now experiencing.

One that shreds the Constitution and uses executive orders to by-pass our checks and balances. A government that acquiesces to the United Nations and abdicates its responsibility to Americans and its sovereignty as a nation, promoting the appearance of the New World Order.

The Declaration, as so many have forgotten, says government derives its just power from the consent of the governed. Whenever “any form” of government becomes destructive of these ends (pursuit of life, liberty and happiness) it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it and to institute new government.

2nd amendment offers protection from just the kind of government we have now | Palladium-Item | pal-item.com

 

[NoNukes]

Obviously Saigon has never heard about Switzerland's gun laws. EVERY household is REQUIRED to own a weapon,they have the lowest crime rate in the world. Blows your little theory about more guns equals more crime out of the water.

Would you want every household in New Orleans, St. Louis, Memphis and other cities with a lot of violent crime to have such weapons? You cannot compare Switzerland to the United States, they are not as violent a society as America. Canada has as many guns and much less violent crimes as America.

 

[Saigon]

To bad you used a anti gun source.

I didn't - but as we have seen repeatedly on this thread, you will absolutely not discuss this issue rationally under any circumstances.

You will not, and you can not, and we both know why that is.

We also know that you did not read the reports provided. Again, we both know why, and I would not expect you to read them.

 

[Saigon]

200 to 300 million firearms in private hands, 49 percent of households with firearms yet less then 1000 accidental shootings and 12000 murders committed with firearms. Do the math.

I agree that the figures have improved a lot in the past 20 years, and I would also agree that if you consider the chances of being killed in the US as a percentage, maybe it doesn't sound that bad.

But the fact remains - the USA has a homicide rate 5 times that of Germany, more when compared with other, similar countries.

The number of homicides in the US which involve firearms is rising, even as the total number of homicides falls.

These are worrying figures.