Are there any Scientologists here??

[eots]

They know jack and shit about psychiatry and medicine, and the only reason they care is because they don't appreciate any competition when it comes to the "mind control" racket.

I cant speak to their motives but the have broke many stories in these areas later picked up by major news sources and were among the first to bring the connection between antidepressants and suicidal/homicidal reactions which is now an accepted fact right on the warning label and in the ads and also the risk to pregnant woman on these drugs which again is a commonly held belief now...they seem very strange I must admit be they or someone in their organization has done some good work in theses areas

Are you sure that they were the first to come up with these premises.

According to the author I mentioned, many scientologists claim that they are responsible for the Berlin wall falling. Also, according to Atack, the Scientologists are suppose to have infiltrated most levels of government and most large corporations, thus it is possible that research conducted by the government/corporations could have fallen into their hands before it was made public.

In other words, these "good ideas" may not have been theirs orignially. Of course what I just said sound as nuts as the Xenu story so I wonder if it is not just a program/deprogram facility or privately mananged Asylum.

yes ..they are very intelligent and well connected..they did not do the medical research through their organization but their investigative reporters and film makers did a excellent job of disseminating the information and it was very professionally done and no mention of scientology was ever made in these pieces only through researching the credits does it become clear these are published or produced by scientology

 

[alan1]

yes ..they are very intelligent and well connected..they did not do the medical research through their organization but their investigative reporters and film makers did a excellent job of disseminating the information and it was very professionally done and no mention of scientology was ever made in these pieces only through researching the credits does it become clear these are published or produced by scientology

Plagiarized by scientology is probably a better term.

 

[eots]

yes ..they are very intelligent and well connected..they did not do the medical research through their organization but their investigative reporters and film makers did a excellent job of disseminating the information and it was very professionally done and no mention of scientology was ever made in these pieces only through researching the credits does it become clear these are published or produced by scientology

Plagiarized by scientology is probably a better term.

well I am certainly not here as a defender of scientology but they have assembled a group of people that are very successful and skilled at their respective fields...there is just no accounting for what otherwise rational people will embrace when it comes to a search for spiritual answers there are brilliant surgeons,,lawyers ..businessmen that practice voodoo at home consult psychics ..do astrology..people a strange

 

[alan1]

yes ..they are very intelligent and well connected..they did not do the medical research through their organization but their investigative reporters and film makers did a excellent job of disseminating the information and it was very professionally done and no mention of scientology was ever made in these pieces only through researching the credits does it become clear these are published or produced by scientology

Plagiarized by scientology is probably a better term.

well I am certainly not here as a defender of scientology but they have assembled a group of people that are very successful and skilled at their respective fields...there is just no accounting for what otherwise rational people will embrace when it comes to a search for spiritual answers there are brilliant surgeons,,lawyers ..businessmen that practice voodoo at home consult psychics ..do astrology..people a strange

So has pretty much every other religion. To me, that doesn't add any credence to their religion.

 

[Avatar4321]

I dislike labelling a religion or even a psuedo religion as a joke. There is obviously some reason people believe what they do. They are being totally rational in their mind. I am curious what the motivations are in the individuals.

 

[alan1]

I dislike labelling a religion or even a psuedo religion as a joke. There is obviously some reason people believe what they do. They are being totally rational in their mind. I am curious what the motivations are in the individuals.

The same motivations that are in christians. muslims, jews, buddhists, etc.

 

[geauxtohell]

I cant speak to their motives but the have broke many stories in these areas later picked up by major news sources and were among the first to bring the connection between antidepressants and suicidal/homicidal reactions which is now an accepted fact right on the warning label and in the ads and also the risk to pregnant woman on these drugs which again is a commonly held belief now...they seem very strange I must admit be they or someone in their organization has done some good work in theses areas

They hold an inherent belief that psychiatry is evil and psychiatrists should be jailed for crimes against humanity.

As crazy as that is, they're alternative (that mental illness is a manifestation of alien possession that can only be cured by giving $ to the Church of Scientology) is even crazier.

If I go ahead and call that out as bullshit and counterproductive to good mental health, will I also be praised for having "done some good work"?

like I say i cant speak to their overall agenda but their reporting was very factual and effective in getting certain warnings on labels and that much is a good thing for pregnant and children..the alternatives they offer may very well not be...this is one of my favorite scientology clips...I for a moment I thought it was my first wife.. looks and sounds like her except for the scientology stuff when I watched it I felt annoyed and agitated while simultaneously thinking ...gee shes kinda cute...disturbing to say the least


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocw90W44Boc]YouTube - Scientology - What are your crimes?[/ame]

Oh yes, the old "What Are Your Crimes" groupthink Scientology talking point. The implication (actually stated by Hubbert) that the only people who refuse Scientology are "criminals who have something to hide". So, if you think Scientology is bullshit, you must be a criminal who is hiding his/her crimes.

It's that kind of Nazi-assed tactics that leads the rest of the world to regard Scientology as a complete farce that is not to be seriously considered. Saying Scientology has "done some good" is like saying Hitler "did some good". (Apologies for playing the 'Hitler Card'. It was the best analogy I could think of.)

As for the SSRI BBW, as I am sure you know, that was somewhat controversial unto itself:

Patient Rep Reverses Position On SSRI Black-Box Warning -- Rosack 40 (10): 9 -- Psychiatr News

There is no solid evidence that SSRIs lead to suicide, but a BBW was stuck on SSRIs due to public outcry from parents. It's pretty hard to quantify if a depressed person who was suicidal killed themselves because of, or in-spite of, SSRIs.

No real studies have been done to analyze the issue in a systematic way. As it stands, the BBW is a CYA by the FDA and Doctors. I think it's absurd. I think this is a much more pragmatic way to deal with the issue:

"At one point I said, `Why not simply go with an informed-consent document?' I felt that by requiring a formal written informed consent, the FDA would in a way force the prescriber to sit down with the patient and engage in a discussion about the risks and the benefits."

Another interesting read:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/10/h...gin&adxnnlx=1184077071-vw43uaOwFtLenT//nfF7Tw

 

[Care4all]

they have some very intelligent people in their organization and have done some excellent investigative journalism on government corruption.. psychiatry and medicine...but other than that the rest of it seems pretty far gone

They know jack and shit about psychiatry and medicine, and the only reason they care is because they don't appreciate any competition when it comes to the "mind control" racket.

I cant speak to their motives but the have broke many stories in these areas later picked up by major news sources and were among the first to bring the connection between antidepressants and suicidal/homicidal reactions which is now an accepted fact right on the warning label and in the ads and also the risk to pregnant woman on these drugs which again is a commonly held belief now...they seem very strange I must admit be they or someone in their organization has done some good work in theses areas

i'm uncertain if they are the same thing...

the Christian Science Monitor (news/magazine) and Scientology?

the CSMonitor is an excellent source of information, i agree

 

[geauxtohell]

They know jack and shit about psychiatry and medicine, and the only reason they care is because they don't appreciate any competition when it comes to the "mind control" racket.

I cant speak to their motives but the have broke many stories in these areas later picked up by major news sources and were among the first to bring the connection between antidepressants and suicidal/homicidal reactions which is now an accepted fact right on the warning label and in the ads and also the risk to pregnant woman on these drugs which again is a commonly held belief now...they seem very strange I must admit be they or someone in their organization has done some good work in theses areas

i'm uncertain if they are the same thing...

the Christian Science Monitor (news/magazine) and Scientology?

the CSMonitor is an excellent source of information, i agree

"Christian Science" is not the same thing as "Scientology".

I think "Christian Science" is silly, but I think the CSMonitor is a good source of information.

 

[PixieStix]

I dislike labelling a religion or even a psuedo religion as a joke. There is obviously some reason people believe what they do. They are being totally rational in their mind. I am curious what the motivations are in the individuals.

Here ya go. Tom Cruz doesn't mince words LOL


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0]YouTube - Tom Cruise Scientology Video - ( Original UNCUT )[/ame]

 

[Zander]

 

[Zander]

 

[Zander]

 

[Zander]

 

[Zander]

 

[alan1]

Operation Clambake presents: Quotes about Scientology

Justice Anderson, Supreme Court of Victoria, Australia:

"Scientology is evil; its techniques are evil; its practice is a serious threat to the community, medically, morally, and socially; and its adherents are sadly deluded and often mentally ill... (Scientology is) the world's largest organization of unqualified persons engaged in the practice of dangerous techniques which masquerade as mental therapy."

Kenneth Robinson, British Minister of Health:

"The government is satisfied that Scientology is socially harmful. It alienates members of families from each other and attributes squalid and disgraceful motives to all who oppose it; its authoritarian principles and practice are a potential menace to the personality and well being of those so deluded as to become followers; above all, its methods can be a serious danger to the health of those who submit to them... There is no power under existing law to prohibit the practice of Scientology; but the government has concluded that it is so objectionable that it would be right to take all steps within its power to curb its growth."

Federal prosecutor's memorandum to the judge urging stiff jail sentences for 9 top leaders of Scientology who had pleaded guilty to criminal charges:

"The crime committed by these defendants is of a breath and scope previously unheard of. No building, office, desk, or file was safe from their snooping and prying. No individual or organization was free from their despicable conspiratorial minds. The tools of their trade were miniature transmitters, lock picks, secret codes, forged credentials and any other device they found necessary to carry out their conspiratorial schemes."

Justice Latey, ruling in the High Court of London:

"Scientology is both immoral and socially obnoxious...It is corrupt sinister and dangerous. It is corrupt because it is based on lies and deceit and has its real objective money and power for Mr. Hubbard... It is sinister because it indulges in infamous practices both to its adherents who do not toe the line unquestionably and to those who criticize it or oppose it. It is dangerous because it is out to capture people and to indoctrinate and brainwash them so they become the unquestioning captives and tools of the cult, withdrawn from ordinary thought, living, and relationships with others."

Judge Breckenridge, Los Angeles Superior Court:

"[The court record is] replete with evidence [that Scientology] is nothing in reality but a vast enterprise to extract the maximum amount of money from its adepts by pseudo scientific theories... and to exercise a kind of blackmail against persons who do not wish to continue with their sect.... The organization clearly is schizophrenic and paranoid, and this bizarre combination seems to be a reflection of its founder, L.Ron Hubbard."

Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Paul Breckenridge, June 1984, in the Gerry Armstrong case:

"In addition to violating and abusing its own members' civil rights, the organization over the years with its 'fair game' doctrine has harassed and abused those persons not in the church whom it perceives as enemies."

California appellate court, 2nd. district, 3rd. division, July 29, 1991, B025920 & B038975, Super. Ct. No. C 420153:

"In January 1980, fearing a raid by law enforcement agencies, Hubbard's representatives ordered the shredding of all documents showing that Hubbard controlled Scientology organizations, finances, personnel, or the property at Gilman Hot Springs. In a two week period, approximately one million pages were shredded pursuant to this order."

California Supreme Court, United States v. Lee [455 U.S. 252,257,258 (1982)*/:

"When a person is subjected to coercive persuasion [as in Scientology] without his knowledge or consent ...[he may] develop serious and sometimes irreversible physical and psychiatric disorders, up to and including schizophrenia, self-mutilation, and suicide."

USDJ Judge Leonie Brinkema 4 Oct 96 Memorandum Opinion, RTC vs Lerma:

"The dispute in this case surrounds Lerma's acquisition and publication on the Internet of texts that the Church of Scientology considers sacred and protects heavily from unauthorized disclosure. Founded by L. Ron Hubbard, the Scientology religion attempts to explain the origin of negative spiritual forces in the world and advances techniques for improving one's own spiritual well-being. Scientologists believe that most human problems can be traced to lingering spirits of an extraterrestrial people massacred by their ruler, Xenu, over 75 million years ago. These spirits attach themselves by "clusters" to individuals in the contemporary world, causing spiritual harm and negatively influencing the lives of their hosts ".

Lord Denning:

"...capable of such danger that the public interest demands that people should know what is going on"

Judge Constandia Angelaki:

"It is an organization with medical, social and ethical practices that are dangerous and harmful,"

"It claims to act freely so as to draw members who subsequently undergo ... brainwashing by dictated ways of thinking that limit reaction capabilities."

Supreme Court of Victoria, Australia, Justice Brookings, 1982:

" ...the teaching of Scientology and the practice of Scientology will result in the commission of many offenses and may well result in the commission of many others."

California 9th Circuit Appeals court in the Zolan case, after secret Scientology tapes were remanded from the U.S. Supreme Court:

"The purpose of the MCCS project was to cover up past criminal wrongdoing.... The MCCS project involved the discussion and planning for future frauds against the IRS in violation of 18C USC 371."

Ted Gunderson, former head of the FBI's Los Angeles office, quoted in TIME May 6, 1991:

"In my opinion the church has one of the most effective intelligence operations in the U.S. rivaling even that of the FBI."

IRS Final Adverse Ruling re "Church of Spiritual Technology," July 8, 1988:

"The California case also demonstrates inurement... amid continuous representations denying control by and benefit to Mr. Hubbard, and a tenacious denial of the actual state of the organization's actual affairs in the face of overwhelming evidence establishing the true nature of the organization's operations." ...Such self dealing does not lose its identity as private benefit and inurement merely because it is conducted through intermediary individuals and\or organizations.

California appellate court, 2nd district, 7th division, Wollersheim v. Church of Scientology of California, Civ. No. B023193 Cal. Super. (1986):

"Substantial evidence supports the conclusion Scientology leaders made the deliberate decision to ruin Wollersheim economically and possible psychologically.... We do not mean to suggest Scientology's retributive program as described in the evidence of this case represented a full scale modern day "inquisition." Nevertheless there are some parallels in purpose and effect. "Fair game" like the "inquisition" targeted "heretics." "Other testimony established Scientology is a hierarchal organization which exhibits near paranoid attitudes toward certain institutions and individuals---in particular the government, mental health professions, disaffected members, and others who criticize the organization or its leadership... During trial, Wollersheim's experts testified Scientology's "auditing" and "disconnect" practices constituted "brainwashing" and "thought reform" akin to what the Chinese and North Koreans practiced on American prisoners of war." "A religious practice which takes place in the context of this level of coercion has less religious value than one the recipient engages in voluntarily. Even more significantly, it poses a greater threat to society to have coerced religious practices inflicted on its citizens." "Using its position as religious leader, the church and its agents coerced Wollersheim into continuing auditing even though his sanity was repeatedly threatened by this practice... Thus there is adequate proof the religious practice in this instance caused real harm to the individual and the appellant's outrageous conduct caused that harm... Church practices conducted in a coercive environment are not qualified to be voluntary religious practices entitled to first amendment religious freedom guarantees." "We hold that the state has a compelling interest in allowing its citizens to recover for serious emotional injuries they suffer through religious practices they are coerced into accepting. Such conduct is too outrageous to be protected under the constitution and too unworthy to be privileged under the law of torts."

U.S. v Kuch 288 F Sup. 439 (1968):

"Those who seek constitutional protections for their participation in an establishment of religion and freedom to practice its beliefs must not be permitted the special freedoms this special sanctuary may provide merely by adopting religious nomenclature and cynically using it as a shield to protect them when participating in anti social conduct that otherwise stands condemned."

United States v. Article or Device, Etc., 333 F.Supp. 357 (D.D.C. 1971) [regarding Scientology's "E-Meter"]:

"The bulk of the material is replete with false medical and scientific claims devoid of any religious overlay or reference." (333 F.Supp. at 361) "The Court's opinion directly and forcefully confronts the issue of claimed First Amendment protection by Scientology. The Court then held that the practice of Scientology was secular." (333 F.Supp. at 359

Commissioners of the City of Clearwater, Florida, public hearings, May 5-10, 1982. The Commission received documentary and testimonial evidence with respect to the operation, activities and conduct of Scientology. Based upon the sworn testimony of witnesses, affidavits, state and federal court decisions, and miscellaneous documents reviewed and considered, the Commission made the following factual recitation:

"Evidentiary fact:
The Church of Scientology is currently engaged in a nationwide conspiracy to impede and obstruct municipal, state and federal taxing authorities, by adopting a religious and charitable guise to avoid payment of taxes.
"Scientology's internal policies state: "They (the public) want ministers. We will show them what ministers look like" (Vol. 1 p.41). "Churches are looked upon as reform groups. Therefore, we must act like a reform group" (Vol.1 p.196).
"Scientology has nothing to do with religion. The Church did not adopt the religious guise until it was necessary to seek First Amendment protection (Vol.4 p.405).
"Scientology uses a religious image checklist designed to falsely portray a religious image to mislead officials (Vol. 2 p.238,239). "Church policy instructs members to lie to inquiring officials (Vol.1 p.226,227).

Documentary evidence in Church of Spiritual Technology vs U.S., November 22, 1989

"The goal of the department [of governmental affairs] is to bring the government and hostile philosophies or societies into a state of complete compliance with the goals of Scientology. This is done by a high level ability to control and in its absence by a low level ability to overwhelm. Introvert such agencies. Control suchagencies." -- LRH
"The purpose of the legal officer is to help LRH handle every legal, government, suit, accounting and tax contact or action... and to bring the greatest possible confusion and loss to its enemies." -- LRH

"Guardian Order 060971" seized in FBI authorized search of Scientology headquarters:

"The vital targets on which we must invest most of our time are:
(T1) Depopularizing the enemy to the point of obliteration.
(T2) Taking over the control or allegiance of the heads or proprietors of all news media.
(T3) Taking over the control or allegiance of key political figures.
(T4) Taking over the control or allegiance of those who monitor international finance..."

Documentary evidence in the Armstrong case:

"You can be merciless whenever your will is crossed and you have the right to be merciless." -- LRH

California Supreme Court, in United States v. Lee 455 U.S. 252,257,258 (1982):

"When a person is subjected to coercive persuasion [as in Scientology] without his knowledge or consent ...[he may] develop serious and sometimes irreversible physical and psychiatric disorders, up to and including schizophrenia, self-mutilation, and suicide."

 

[Zander]

and finally!!!

 

[Father Time]

I dislike labelling a religion or even a psuedo religion as a joke. There is obviously some reason people believe what they do. They are being totally rational in their mind. I am curious what the motivations are in the individuals.

I wonder if people with schizophrenia and delusions think they are rational as well.

 

[alan1]

Lisa McPherson autopsy

 

[PixieStix]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCGP-0545EU]YouTube - The Un-Funny TRUTH about Scientology[/ame]