Attention all Catholic haters

[Clement]

But Clement, I’m not doubting that particular woman destroyed the church. I know nothing of that topic so I’ll take your word. What is absurd is saying that “because she destroyed it, and is a lady, ALL women are now incapable of leading churches”.

Don't like that? How about "all women need to be subject to the same standard everybody else is", at the very least, and not be "given a chance" simply because they are women. They need to lead exemplary lives (and not engage in sexual sin, for example), and they, at the very least, need to believe in Jesus Christ as their savior if they are going to pretend to lead a "Christian" church?

Or is that too much to ask, too?

I am afraid I have taken a wrong turn on this one, though. For me to say that "women can't lead" was probably a bridge too far. It should suffice to say that in the RCC tradition of having only men in the priesthood has worked for 2000 years, it will work for another 2000. I know women want to be priests, and I am 6 foot tall, 200 lbs., and I want to be a runway model. Life has been a disappointment for both of us.

Women are not men. Men are not women. And no amount of torturing the English language is going to change that.

Politically correct? I thought I was just following general modern thinking by saying women and men are equal when it comes to things like intelligence, etc. There are successful women politicians, CEOs, entrepreneurs, etc, etc; women have proven that they can in fact lead. It’s an indisputable fact.

I am not a big fan of general modern thinking. General modern thinking has convinced us to believe some pretty stupid things, like spending money is the way to avert a financial crisis.

To say that men are generally better at leading is one thing, and though I might disagree we could at least have a conversation there.

In the church, they are.

But to say that NOT ONE woman on the face of the planet - not a single one of the 4,500,000,000 on earth today - is fit for the job is just sort of crazy to me.

I am not going to say none of them are fit, but of the ones I have seen, none of them have been fit, and do you know why? Because their agenda always seems to come first, not Christ's, not the church's. NOBODY with an agenda belongs in leadership, man or woman.

But that's neither here nor there, either, since the church simply is not set up that way, it's not how they roll.

Of the people who have answered this thread, they seem to be mostly "used to be" Catholics. Some are not and have never been Catholics. And still others have no faith tradition at all.

In other words, the people with the biggest mouths seem to have no stake in it at all.

 

[Clement]

That may be your personal belief but that certainly is not a universal or even common belief.

That's why Christ called them the wide and narrow gates. The lemmings try to enter through the wide gate, following what is "commonly" believed.

You are the biblical lemming, my friend.

And you, sir, are a social lemming.

 

[Clement]

Let's boil it down to the core. Apparently, we are led to understand that the lack of a penis makes one unqualified to be a minister of the gospel.

We can always count on you for an irrelevant, asinine contribution, can't we?

 

[KevinWestern]

I am afraid I have taken a wrong turn on this one, though. For me to say that "women can't lead" was probably a bridge too far. It should suffice to say that in the RCC tradition of having only men in the priesthood has worked for 2000 years, it will work for another 2000. I know women want to be priests, and I am 6 foot tall, 200 lbs., and I want to be a runway model. Life has been a disappointment for both of us.

Thanks for acknowledging that. But going back to the OP, you wanted to know why there’s a lot of “Catholic Haters”, and you’re going to have to accept the fact that modern society strives to treat men/women equally and that the setup of the Catholic Church goes against this standard.

I am not a big fan of general modern thinking. General modern thinking has convinced us to believe some pretty stupid things, like spending money is the way to avert a financial crisis.

I think you’re going off topic here. Of course “modern thinking” isn’t perfect, however I think we’re headed in the right direction on some of the “staple” changes such as allowing women to vote, or not enslaving black people – for example. Women and men are both equally capable of leading an organization, especially those that cater to both sexes.

I am not going to say none of them are fit, but of the ones I have seen, none of them have been fit, and do you know why? Because their agenda always seems to come first, not Christ's, not the church's.

Clement, it sounds to me like you’re asserting that women – as a whole – are “naturally” self-serving. That’s a pretty offensive generalization.

Of the people who have answered this thread, they seem to be mostly "used to be" Catholics. Some are not and have never been Catholics. And still others have no faith tradition at all.

In other words, the people with the biggest mouths seem to have no stake in it at all.

A few quick things. When you start a thread asking why people hate the Catholic church, does it surprise you that mostly ex-Catholics respond? That seems to me like something one would expect to occur.

In summary, we’ve established that the Catholic Church considers women somewhat incapable of leadership, and given that women are half the population and that most modern people in the US believe that women and men are equal when it comes to the intellect, I think this is a fair reason why some might dislike the Church (or at least be discouraged to become participants). Personally, I think you guys are going to need to change your ways or face a dwindling followership (which is obviously not good).

I’m not saying “update the Bible” or anything at all like that, I’m just saying that many churches seem to be able to teach the word of God, the saving power of Jesus, and all that other good stuff while also treating women as “equals”. Why can't Catholics?

You do realize the Pope, the Cardinals, the Bishops, and the official hierarchy was all made up at some point by people just like you, and thus I think people just like you have the power to rewire things once again if you want to save the church.


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[Clement]

Thanks for acknowledging that. But going back to the OP, you wanted to know why there’s a lot of “Catholic Haters”, and you’re going to have to accept the fact that modern society strives to treat men/women equally and that the setup of the Catholic Church goes against this standard.

I'll come back to this.

....allowing women to vote, or not enslaving black people – for example....

Come off it, man, you weren't even alive for either of those things. I do know that some people in this society, in the absence of real injustice, will invent one, and this is as good as any.

Clement, it sounds to me like you’re asserting that women – as a whole – are “naturally” self-serving. That’s a pretty offensive generalization.

The ones who are demanding to be priests are, I told you that from the beginning. Your approach to ordination should be one of humility, surely not pride, and especially not entitlement. And I don't care if that offends you.

A few quick things. When you start a thread asking why people hate the Catholic church, does it surprise you that mostly ex-Catholics respond? That seems to me like something one would expect to occur.

And we can expect disgruntled ex-Catholics to be honest?

In summary, we’ve established that the Catholic Church considers women somewhat incapable of leadership, and given that women are half the population and that most modern people in the US believe that women and men are equal when it comes to the intellect, I think this is a fair reason why some might dislike the Church (or at least be discouraged to become participants). Personally, I think you guys are going to need to change your ways or face a dwindling followership (which is obviously not good).

I’m not saying “update the Bible” or anything at all like that, I’m just saying that many churches seem to be able to teach the word of God, the saving power of Jesus, and all that other good stuff while also treating women as “equals”. Why can't Catholics?

It doesn't have anything to do with "equality", I told you - he who would be the greatest among you must be a servant.

You do realize the Pope, the Cardinals, the Bishops, and the official hierarchy was all made up at some point by people just like you, and thus I think people just like you have the power to rewire things once again if you want to save the church.

That is pure BS, and if you had paid attention in Sunday school you'd know better. Read the book of Acts. Jesus chose 12 MEN, the apostles, also called Bishops in some translations, to send into the world, who in turn chose other MEN, Deacons, to do the things they didn't have time for. As you read through the Epistle letters you will see the "hierarchy", as you call it, was in place from the beginning, and it has been handed down to us from antiquity. Priests eventually came along as representatives of the Bishop, which is actually what "vicar" means.

Your last sentence was particularly ignorant: " people just like you have the power to rewire things once again if you want to save the church".

Save the church?????

My dear man, the church doesn't need to be "saved", not by me, not by anybody. The Church is the Body of the Eternal Christ, in Heaven, Paradise, and on earth, she is antecedent to her worldly members. Every Christian in the world could be slaughtered tomorrow, every church, chapel, and cathedral razed to the ground, every Bible and prayer-book, every word of Christian theology and devotion, could be destroyed; and it would not make the slightest difference to the existence of the "Church".

No wonder you didn't make it as a Catholic.

 

[MrMax]

I dislike the Catholic church because of all the pedophilia, the women as second class citizens mentality and the silly outfits.

 

[KevinWestern]

No wonder you didn't make it as a Catholic.

But Clement, the structure of the Catholic church was not laid out directly in the Bible. There's nothing that explicitly says you need (A) 1 Pope, (B) Cardinals, (C) Bishops, and (D) Priests and some of the people must live in the Vatican, and the Pope must be chosen in this way, with white smoke, etc. You know this. Those are traditions made by man...

Unless I'm wrong? Was it clearly laid out in the Bible?

And if so why are the Catholics the only denomination to do these things? I don't believe Lutherans have a Pope - for example.

I'm not saying that you need to alter Jesus's words, or change the Bible, I'm saying that (in my view) if you're planning to thrive and prosper in this century then you're going to have to allow yourselves to adapt to some modern modes of thinking with regards to the hierarchical/administrative structure of the church.

Just my view.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I dislike the Catholic church because of all the pedophilia, the women as second class citizens mentality and the silly outfits.

Do you dislike the public schools as well, since they have about a dozen times more pedophilia, and cover it up far more than the Catholics ever did?

 

[guno]

How would you like it if your boss said "just work and keep quiet, we don't need to hear your thoughts on how to run this company"?

For most employees in most companies that is, for all practical purposes, the correct stance. Since a religion is not a company, your question is moot in any case.

The Vatican’s treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion dollars. A large bulk of this is stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest. But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country. When to that is added all the real estate, property, stocks and shares abroad, then the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment.

It's a business

Catholic Church and Pope Francis: Religious institutions are exempted from nonprofit disclosure rules, so nobody knows how rich they really are.

 

[MrMax]

I dislike the Catholic church because of all the pedophilia, the women as second class citizens mentality and the silly outfits.

Do you dislike the public schools as well, since they have about a dozen times more pedophilia, and cover it up far more than the Catholics ever did?

I smell fartsmoke. Got a credible link?

 

[Nutz]

No wonder you didn't make it as a Catholic.

But Clement, the structure of the Catholic church was not laid out directly in the Bible. There's nothing that explicitly says you need (A) 1 Pope, (B) Cardinals, (C) Bishops, and (D) Priests and some of the people must live in the Vatican, and the Pope must be chosen in this way, with white smoke, etc. You know this. Those are traditions made by man...

Unless I'm wrong? Was it clearly laid out in the Bible?

And if so why are the Catholics the only denomination to do these things? I don't believe Lutherans have a Pope - for example.

I'm not saying that you need to alter Jesus's words, or change the Bible, I'm saying that (in my view) if you're planning to thrive and prosper in this century then you're going to have to allow yourselves to adapt to some modern modes of thinking with regards to the hierarchical/administrative structure of the church.

Just my view.

I don't know why you continue to *debate* with this guy. He obviously believes the Catholic Church is the only church sanctioned by God. He believes all of the man made rules, rituals and traditions are of God. He thinks that when Jesus refers to the church, he was referring to the Catholic Church.

He disregards any points made by anyone else, not with scripture, but with Catholic dogma.

Read his words, he truly believes the Catholic Church is an extension of God. He is dangerously close to including the Catholic Church in the Holy Trinity. How dangerous is this...the whole ideal reeks and shows that the Catholic Church does not believe an individual can have a personal relationship with God.

And I revert back to the verse he ignored earlier...For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them Matthew 18:20. In essence, what this guy is doing is trying to define the Catholic church as the only true church. He is trying to attack all other denominations by perverting the word of God...something the Catholic church has done throughout history.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

What's your beef?

Please be specific. No "pedophile priest" answers, there are no more pedophile priests than there are pedophile scoutmasters. Or schoolteachers.

Give me your theological reasons. REAL theological reasons, not made up theology.

I don't hate Catholics. I don't fully understand their beliefs. Things like praying to Mary, purgatory, asking forgiveness by man who they call "father", asking him for absolution and other things that are not in the Bible.

 

[Clement]

He disregards any points made by anyone else, not with scripture, but with Catholic dogma.

If you ever made a point, I would consider it, but all I ever get from you is emotional outbursts, like this one:

Read his words, he truly believes the Catholic Church is an extension of God. He is dangerously close to including the Catholic Church in the Holy Trinity. How dangerous is this...the whole ideal reeks and shows that the Catholic Church does not believe an individual can have a personal relationship with God.

Not only is that false on it's face, you totally ignored what I said when I told you I am not RCC.

And I revert back to the verse he ignored earlier...For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them Matthew 18:20.

Is that the only verse you know? Here's another one for you:

Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

In essence, what this guy is doing is trying to define the Catholic church as the only true church. He is trying to attack all other denominations by perverting the word of God...something the Catholic church has done throughout history.

You're nuts, nutz, try reading what was written instead of what you want it to say.

 

[Clement]

But Clement, the structure of the Catholic church was not laid out directly in the Bible.

It is, you have to read it.

There's nothing that explicitly says you need (A) 1 Pope, (B) Cardinals, (C) Bishops, and (D) Priests and some of the people must live in the Vatican, and the Pope must be chosen in this way, with white smoke, etc. You know this. Those are traditions made by man...

The Pope and Cardinals are Bishops, are they not? Offices spelled out in everybody's Bible.

Unless I'm wrong? Was it clearly laid out in the Bible?

If that's the way you want it, was it forbidden by the Bible?

(The answer is no.)

I'm not saying that you need to alter Jesus's words, or change the Bible, I'm saying that (in my view) if you're planning to thrive and prosper in this century then you're going to have to allow yourselves to adapt to some modern modes of thinking with regards to the hierarchical/administrative structure of the church.

Just my view.

Your opinion has been noted, and disputed on several points, of which you seem to be happily oblivious.

These are exciting times, though. Anybody with an opinion can think that his opinion outweighs 2000 years of history.

 

[Clement]

What's your beef?

Please be specific. No "pedophile priest" answers, there are no more pedophile priests than there are pedophile scoutmasters. Or schoolteachers.

Give me your theological reasons. REAL theological reasons, not made up theology.

I don't hate Catholics. I don't fully understand their beliefs. Things like praying to Mary, purgatory, asking forgiveness by man who they call "father", asking him for absolution and other things that are not in the Bible.

Uh, those things are in the Bible.

 

[KevinWestern]

These are exciting times, though. Anybody with an opinion can think that his opinion outweighs 2000 years of history.

Do all other denominations have it wrong? Are they not practicing their Christian faith correctly?

 

[Nutz]

These are exciting times, though. Anybody with an opinion can think that his opinion outweighs 2000 years of history.

Do all other denominations have it wrong? Are they not practicing their Christian faith correctly?

Exactly...that is what this guy is preaching! If you don't follow the man-made laws of the spiritually dead Catholic Church, you will burn in hell!

Don't you find it funny, the Catholic Church says women cannot become clergy, yet they routinely pray to a woman?

 

[Uncensored2008]

I dislike the Catholic church because of all the pedophilia, the women as second class citizens mentality and the silly outfits.

Do you dislike the public schools as well, since they have about a dozen times more pedophilia, and cover it up far more than the Catholics ever did?

I smell fartsmoke. Got a credible link?

What you smell is the bullshit you tracked in from Media Matters, hack.

Has Media Ignored Sex Abuse In School? - CBS News

What banned leftist are you?

 

[KevinWestern]

Exactly...that is what this guy is preaching! If you don't follow the man-made laws of the spiritually dead Catholic Church, you will burn in hell!

Don't you find it funny, the Catholic Church says women cannot become clergy, yet they routinely pray to a woman?

Obviously you can’t dispute a straightforward “thou shall not kill” commandment. But when it comes to things like Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests – there’s no extraordinarily direct guidelines. There’s nothing in the Bible that says a pastor can’t marry, or have children. There’s nothing in the Bible that says you must confess your sins to an intermediary here on Earth (vs directly to God). There's nothing in the Bible saying you can't eat fish on Friday during lent, or must get ashes on ash Wednesday, or that one must receive “last rites” if possible, or that you must use white smoke to signal that a new Pope has been chosen. There’s nothing in the Bible that says a Pope must be male, and that he must be chosen by Cardinals. There’s nothing in the Bible that says there must be a central Vatican HQ.

Certainly not saying those things are bad or wrong, not the case at all, just saying they’re man-made traditions and it wouldn’t go against God’s teaching to modify a few things.

That’s all.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

What's your beef?

Please be specific. No "pedophile priest" answers, there are no more pedophile priests than there are pedophile scoutmasters. Or schoolteachers.

Give me your theological reasons. REAL theological reasons, not made up theology.

I don't hate Catholics. I don't fully understand their beliefs. Things like praying to Mary, purgatory, asking forgiveness by man who they call "father", asking him for absolution and other things that are not in the Bible.

Uh, those things are in the Bible.

Chapters and verses please.