Ben Franklin Said It Best

[Weatherman2020]

Ben Franklin’s statement was more apropos for the Patriot Act that people like the OP supported.

A voluntary and temporary lockdown for the sake of saving lives is not taking anyone’s ”liberty” away. If any anything it is in the pursuit of ”life”. But of course I am pro-life and not pro-death as opposed to Trumpers who differ.

The left who bitched about the Patriot Act are cheering every American being put under house arrest without due process.

 

[Blues Man]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

I'm not so sure eating out or drinking at a bar are "essential" liberties.

In fact I don't feel too put out at all.

But then again I work for myself and mostly from home anyway. I do miss my regular jam sessions but we're making do with Zoom for now.

The issue is whether the government should be able to place you under house arrest without due process of law.

No one is under house arrest.

I still go out and walk my dogs. I still go for a drive, I still go to the store for booze and groceries I still work in my yard

It's really not that difficult to be just a little more aware of your surroundings so as to keep a distance from others

Michigan you get arrested for checking on your neighbor or driving to your cabin in the woods.

Michigan stay-at-home order now bans visits to friends, relatives, governor says | Fox News

Traveling to another home within Michigan, even to visit friends or relatives, or to go to a vacation home, is now banned under Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s coronavirus stay-at-home order, which has been extended until May 1.

www.foxnews.com

Do you live in Michigan?

Shitty strawman. I bet you applauded the black Philly man being dragged off the bus by 10 white cops.

You already tried that one on me.

So I'll give you the same answer.

I don't agree with most of what the government does I never have and I most likely never will.

But being the rational person that I am I do not let the irrational acts of others cloud my thinking.

And not that it's any of your business but I'll bet I'm more Black than you are

 

[JLW]

Ben Franklin’s statement was more apropos for the Patriot Act that people like the OP supported.

A voluntary and temporary lockdown for the sake of saving lives is not taking anyone’s ”liberty” away. If any anything it is in the pursuit of ”life”. But of course I am pro-life and not pro-death as opposed to Trumpers who differ.

The left who bitched about the Patriot Act are cheering every American being put under house arrest without due process.

Wrong...the Patriot act gave sweeping surveillance powers to the federal government that still exist today. The current lockdown is temporary and to save American lives. Suck it up for the sake of your fellow citizens.

 

[jwoodie]

Shitty strawman. I bet you applauded the black Philly man being dragged off the bus by 10 white cops.

The real shitty straw man is your insinuation that white cops are targeting black men for no reason. Not to mention your ad hominem remark...

 

[OldLady]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

I dearly wish some of you would read each others' posts so we wouldn't have to go through this over and over.

That quote by Franklin was actually IN SUPPORT of the authority of the Pennsylvania Assembly to tax a particular large landholder who the Governor was continuing to "let off the hook." The Assembly was trying to raise money to fight the French and Indian War. It's kind of confusing, but Franklin's quote had nothing to do with individual liberties. He was talking about TAXES.

It has to do with surrendering for the sake of safety.

Fine, just don't attribute it to Ben Franklin, because that is not what he meant.

 

[OldLady]

Benjamin Franklin on the trade off between essential liberty and temporary safety (1775) - Online Library of Liberty

Ben may have repeated that phrase in 1775, but this researcher actually dug out the letter where this quote began. All the researchers who have explained what it really meant rely on this letter as being the origin of the quote. I don't know when the article in the Library of Liberty was written, but the NPR and Lawfare articles I quote were written in 2011 and 2015. So there was no Trumpian motivation there. Just history nerds correcting the record.

The words appear originally in a 1755 letter that Franklin is presumed to have written on behalf of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the colonial governor during the French and Indian War. The letter was a salvo in a power struggle between the governor and the Assembly over funding for security on the frontier, one in which the Assembly wished to tax the lands of the Penn family, which ruled Pennsylvania from afar, to raise money for defense against French and Indian attacks. The governor kept vetoing the Assembly’s efforts at the behest of the family, which had appointed him.
https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-ben-franklin-really-said

WITTES: It is a quotation that defends the authority of a legislature to govern in the interests of collective security. It means, in context, not quite the opposite of what it's almost always quoted as saying but much closer to the opposite than to the thing that people think it means.

Ben Franklin's Famous 'Liberty, Safety' Quote Lost Its Context In 21st Century

He once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." That quote often comes up in the context of new technology.

www.npr.org

No biggie, but, like a history nerd, this is where I got my information.

 

[playtime]

good 'ol ben..........

he rocked!

 

[Rigby5]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Large groups of people aren't that essential for a few weeks if the alternative is unchecked spread of the virus. Getting past the curve is more than just a little temporary safety.

Not sure, because it is possible that those who do not get it this time, will lack immunity when it comes around again, and by next time, it could be even more lethal?

There will most likely be a vaccine for it by then

Just like with colds and flu, there may never be a successful vaccine.
What comes next year may have varied too much.

 

[Rigby5]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

I'm not so sure eating out or drinking at a bar are "essential" liberties.

In fact I don't feel too put out at all.

But then again I work for myself and mostly from home anyway. I do miss my regular jam sessions but we're making do with Zoom for now.

The issue is whether the government should be able to place you under house arrest without due process of law.

No one is under house arrest.

I still go out and walk my dogs. I still go for a drive, I still go to the store for booze and groceries I still work in my yard

It's really not that difficult to be just a little more aware of your surroundings so as to keep a distance from others

Michigan you get arrested for checking on your neighbor or driving to your cabin in the woods.

Michigan stay-at-home order now bans visits to friends, relatives, governor says | Fox News

Traveling to another home within Michigan, even to visit friends or relatives, or to go to a vacation home, is now banned under Democratic Gov. Gretchen Whitmer’s coronavirus stay-at-home order, which has been extended until May 1.

www.foxnews.com

Government going over the line there.

 

[Rigby5]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

I dearly wish some of you would read each others' posts so we wouldn't have to go through this over and over.

That quote by Franklin was actually IN SUPPORT of the authority of the Pennsylvania Assembly to tax a particular large landholder who the Governor was continuing to "let off the hook." The Assembly was trying to raise money to fight the French and Indian War. It's kind of confusing, but Franklin's quote had nothing to do with individual liberties. He was talking about TAXES.

It has to do with surrendering for the sake of safety.

Fine, just don't attribute it to Ben Franklin, because that is not what he meant.

Yes, it does have the same meaning, it is just the persons who are reversed.
Government is not always the bad guy.
But it is still talking about being short sighted.

 

[Shawnee_b]

He also had a club where they compared the worst farts. My kinda guy.

Ever read "fart proudly" ? Good book

 

[OldLady]

He also had a club where they compared the worst farts. My kinda guy.

Ever read "fart proudly" ? Good book

I'll bet the boys from Boston won.

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Cool discussion everyone! Glad to see the interest in history, and that folks here dig into quotes normally scattered around the internet with abandon, and used indiscriminately. Unbelievable about how many quotes out there are actually invented or altered. Anyway, the censored stuff about choosing a mistress and farting are great!

Interesting question that came up regularly in colonial times: Which one — the governor, a popular (or leading religious) assembly, the King, Parliament, or “proprietary stockholder-investors” were the effective “governing authority”? In many colonies ”Royal Charters” granting rights to aristocrats, or royally recognized stockholder groups’ own corporate rules for voting and resolving leadership questions, served as models for later ”rights” assumed by assemblies of property owning citizens. As I recall (vaguely) from reading Adam Winkler’s great book, “We the Corporations,” the first chapter of which is entitled “In the Beginning America Was a Corporation,” early colonies and later state constitutions took legal ideas from corporate rules of the Hudson Bay and East India trading companies!

 

[Blues Man]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Large groups of people aren't that essential for a few weeks if the alternative is unchecked spread of the virus. Getting past the curve is more than just a little temporary safety.

Not sure, because it is possible that those who do not get it this time, will lack immunity when it comes around again, and by next time, it could be even more lethal?

There will most likely be a vaccine for it by then

Just like with colds and flu, there may never be a successful vaccine.
What comes next year may have varied too much.

Don't overlook the good in favor of the perfect

 

[SweetSue92]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

I'm not so sure eating out or drinking at a bar are "essential" liberties.

In fact I don't feel too put out at all.

But then again I work for myself and mostly from home anyway. I do miss my regular jam sessions but we're making do with Zoom for now.

Not being able to travel freely between properties YOU OWN is a trampling of your essential liberties.
Not being able to worship even in your car with your windows up.
Not being able to buy a carseat for your baby, or seeds to grow a garden.

 

[SweetSue92]

He also said

Advice to a Friend on Choosing a Mistress - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Face first grows lank and wrinkled; then the Neck; then the Breast and Arms; the lower Parts continuing to the last as plump as ever: So that covering all above with a Basket, and regarding only what is below the Girdle, it is impossible of two Women to know an old from a young one. And as in the dark all Cats are grey, the Pleasure of corporal Enjoyment with an old Woman is at least equal, and frequently superior, every Knack being by Practice capable of Improvement.[1]

Fallacies get thrown around her a lot of often in a misapplied fashion. This is the classic ad hominem. It's immaterial.

 

[sparky]

That's your opinion- those large groups people (and the Individuals in them) are the ones who have the right to determine essential.

not any more.....

~S~

 

[Blues Man]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

I'm not so sure eating out or drinking at a bar are "essential" liberties.

In fact I don't feel too put out at all.

But then again I work for myself and mostly from home anyway. I do miss my regular jam sessions but we're making do with Zoom for now.

Not being able to travel freely between properties YOU OWN is a trampling of your essential liberties.
Not being able to worship even in your car with your windows up.
Not being able to buy a carseat for your baby, or seeds to grow a garden.

Where can you not buy seeds?

Home depot is still open.

Buy a car seat online

And no one has stopped me from driving anywhere

And you can worship anywhere as you have already been told countless times.

This is a TEMPORARY modification of behavior that's all

 

[sparky]

Those who think a temporary modification of their behavior is somehow a threat to their rights aren't understanding the old saying

With rights come responsibilities

and freedom isn't free

so it becomes a matter of respecting our rights and freedoms

~S~

 

[sparky]

And once again this is nothing but a temporary modification of behavior.

that would be less painful if true

~S~