Breaking: Mass Shooting at Ft. Hood in Texas ... 7 confirmed dead

[AllieBaba]

Exhibit 1: He was a Muslim
Exhibit 2: He wanted out of the military after 9/11! I think most of us remember the surge in recruitment back then.
Exhibit 3: He attacked US soldiers
Exhibit 4: He was extremely upset with the war in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Exhibit 5: He expressed views that America was the aggressor
Exhibit 6: He wrote blogs praising suicide bombers as true soldiers
Exhibit 7: It was confirmed that as he was shooting American soldiers he yelled "Allah Akbar!"

I think the burden of proof as shifted to the appeasers here!

Appeasers? What a bloody stupid position to take. This was an individual act, the way you're banging on you'd think every second Muslim in the States was firing away at people. Yes it's tragic but put it into perspective. One man apparently went nutso. The reasons for him going nutso were apparently related to his religion and cultural identity and his imminent posting to a war zone in an Islamic country occupied by western forces. Appeasers? That's not appeasing, it's simply trying to understand what happened.

He isn't one man who went nutso. Islamic fundamentalists around the world are wacko, including those in the US, and they are attacking us. To deny it is to lie.

 

[Diuretic]

Exhibit 1: He was a Muslim
Exhibit 2: He wanted out of the military after 9/11! I think most of us remember the surge in recruitment back then.
Exhibit 3: He attacked US soldiers
Exhibit 4: He was extremely upset with the war in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Exhibit 5: He expressed views that America was the aggressor
Exhibit 6: He wrote blogs praising suicide bombers as true soldiers
Exhibit 7: It was confirmed that as he was shooting American soldiers he yelled "Allah Akbar!"

I think the burden of proof as shifted to the appeasers here!

Appeasers? What a bloody stupid position to take. This was an individual act, the way you're banging on you'd think every second Muslim in the States was firing away at people. Yes it's tragic but put it into perspective. One man apparently went nutso. The reasons for him going nutso were apparently related to his religion and cultural identity and his imminent posting to a war zone in an Islamic country occupied by western forces. Appeasers? That's not appeasing, it's simply trying to understand what happened.

He isn't one man who went nutso. Islamic fundamentalists around the world are wacko, including those in the US, and they are attacking us. To deny it is to lie.

"To deny it is to lie" - Newspeak?

Religious fundamentalists of any stripe are certainly not all there, they have definitely got mental problems. But most of them aren't going around killing people. Fact is a lot of killing is done for secular reasons but secular people aren't being accused of attacking everyone are they?

This bloke went postal. People go postal. Martin Bryant went postal at Port Arthur, Tasmania. This bloke went postal for the reasons that have been explored here - apparently. But there are plenty of Muslims in America who are uncomfortable with the invasion and occupation of Iraq who are not going postal. This was an individual's act, not an act of a particular religious grouping.

 

[Diuretic]

Anyway, about Officer Kimberley Munley.

1. Courageous
2. Professional
3. Handled the active shooter incident in a manner which followed recent doctrine and stopped many more casualties.
4. The next time I hear someone say women can't do police work I am going to tear strips off them (verbally, I'm not a violent man).

I hope Officer Munley is recognised for her outstanding bravery and professionalism.

 

[WillowTree]

Exhibit 1: He was a Muslim
Exhibit 2: He wanted out of the military after 9/11! I think most of us remember the surge in recruitment back then.
Exhibit 3: He attacked US soldiers
Exhibit 4: He was extremely upset with the war in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Exhibit 5: He expressed views that America was the aggressor
Exhibit 6: He wrote blogs praising suicide bombers as true soldiers
Exhibit 7: It was confirmed that as he was shooting American soldiers he yelled "Allah Akbar!"

I think the burden of proof as shifted to the appeasers here!

Appeasers? What a bloody stupid position to take. This was an individual act, the way you're banging on you'd think every second Muslim in the States was firing away at people. Yes it's tragic but put it into perspective. One man apparently went nutso. The reasons for him going nutso were apparently related to his religion and cultural identity and his imminent posting to a war zone in an Islamic country occupied by western forces. Appeasers? That's not appeasing, it's simply trying to understand what happened.

not to mention of course that apparently he milked the system for a damn good education then wanted to back out of his contract,, just too damn inconvenient to stand up for his country. Nice way to repay your country huh? by killing of the innocents?? Yes, I'd say "appeasers" fits nicely.

 

[Ringel05]

Anyway, about Officer Kimberley Munley.

1. Courageous
2. Professional
3. Handled the active shooter incident in a manner which followed recent doctrine and stopped many more casualties.
4. The next time I hear someone say women can't do police work I am going to tear strips off them (verbally, I'm not a violent man).

I hope Officer Munley is recognised for her outstanding bravery and professionalism.

You're a cop, of course you'd say that.
(Just pulling your chain )

 

[KittenKoder]

Cops rule, perps drool.

 

[Diuretic]

Exhibit 1: He was a Muslim
Exhibit 2: He wanted out of the military after 9/11! I think most of us remember the surge in recruitment back then.
Exhibit 3: He attacked US soldiers
Exhibit 4: He was extremely upset with the war in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Exhibit 5: He expressed views that America was the aggressor
Exhibit 6: He wrote blogs praising suicide bombers as true soldiers
Exhibit 7: It was confirmed that as he was shooting American soldiers he yelled "Allah Akbar!"

I think the burden of proof as shifted to the appeasers here!

Appeasers? What a bloody stupid position to take. This was an individual act, the way you're banging on you'd think every second Muslim in the States was firing away at people. Yes it's tragic but put it into perspective. One man apparently went nutso. The reasons for him going nutso were apparently related to his religion and cultural identity and his imminent posting to a war zone in an Islamic country occupied by western forces. Appeasers? That's not appeasing, it's simply trying to understand what happened.

not to mention of course that apparently he milked the system for a damn good education then wanted to back out of his contract,, just too damn inconvenient to stand up for his country. Nice way to repay your country huh? by killing of the innocents?? Yes, I'd say "appeasers" fits nicely.

Careful Willow, any more stretching and you'll bust something

 

[Diuretic]

Anyway, about Officer Kimberley Munley.

1. Courageous
2. Professional
3. Handled the active shooter incident in a manner which followed recent doctrine and stopped many more casualties.
4. The next time I hear someone say women can't do police work I am going to tear strips off them (verbally, I'm not a violent man).

I hope Officer Munley is recognised for her outstanding bravery and professionalism.

You're a cop, of course you'd say that.
(Just pulling your chain )

I wish I was half the cop she is!

 

[mdn2000]

Kalem, of all that post Kalem knows the least of Islam, Kalem has his nose stuck up the Koran so far Kalem has never bothered to read the unbiased western accounts of Islamic history.

I prefer reading from the source. I find ahadith more useful for understanding early Islamic history than works by orientalists, but that's just me.

Even in this thread Kalem must demonize the dead, I dont care how you reword things kalem, it was pretty low to state that the victims "were not personally guilty of rape". Those murdered were collectively guilty

Collective guilt is not an Islamic concept. Their choice to serve in the military does not make them criminals because the military per se isn't attempting to wage war against Islam or purposefully kill civilians. You may find this fatwa relevant to our discussion:


edit: Most of my ancestors are European. It may disappoint you to know that I am, by most standards, a white guy. Islam is not endemic to any single race or ethnicity.

Qaradawi et al. fatwa

Kalem, your white? We are all shocked, I would never of guessed, I though I was speaking with the same Sunni that make up al qaeda, next thing you are going to tell me is your not in a cave. I guess that just goes to show that Kalem is the smart one after all.

Kalem, I am glad you only read the holy books of Islam, like the Hadith, or Hadiths. Kalem that is why you dont know much about Islam, you see Kalem many great works were written by westerners, also by writers from Russia, Kalem remembers this, Kalem stereotyped my sources as being biased western books when one source was written by an Iraqi, another by a Russian. Kalem even called the books "written by travelers", funny, why is a man of such great intellegence stereotyping books Kalem had never heard of?

How much can Kalem really know when he is so quick to stereotype all non-islamic books.

Kalem thinks he needs to tell me Kalem is white, Kalem has stereotyped all non-islamic books, Kalem posts erronously about books Kalem never heard of. How can one who is so smart act, well for the lack of a better word, act as a bigot.

As far as how Kalem originally described the dead victims not being guilty of rape and murder, that in light of your other idiotic comments show me that outside cuting and pasting the Koran, Kalem knows nothing, Kalem does not even recogonize when Kalem's post are exactly what Kalem insinuates others posts are, Stereotyping and Bigoted.

Kalem is white. Kalem is a moslem not.

 

[WillowTree]

Appeasers? What a bloody stupid position to take. This was an individual act, the way you're banging on you'd think every second Muslim in the States was firing away at people. Yes it's tragic but put it into perspective. One man apparently went nutso. The reasons for him going nutso were apparently related to his religion and cultural identity and his imminent posting to a war zone in an Islamic country occupied by western forces. Appeasers? That's not appeasing, it's simply trying to understand what happened.

not to mention of course that apparently he milked the system for a damn good education then wanted to back out of his contract,, just too damn inconvenient to stand up for his country. Nice way to repay your country huh? by killing of the innocents?? Yes, I'd say "appeasers" fits nicely.

Careful Willow, any more stretching and you'll bust something

what part was stretched?

 

[Diuretic]

not to mention of course that apparently he milked the system for a damn good education then wanted to back out of his contract,, just too damn inconvenient to stand up for his country. Nice way to repay your country huh? by killing of the innocents?? Yes, I'd say "appeasers" fits nicely.

Careful Willow, any more stretching and you'll bust something

what part was stretched?

The "appeasers" bit. It seems that any attempt to look at an issue objectively brings up the assertion of "appeaser". It's not just a stretch, it's a calculated smear.

This bloke for example. He apparently got his education in return for service. I know that is the case in my country in the military as well. And some people do try and get out of it. I know one bloke who was an RAAF pilot who wanted to get out and work for an overseas airline, he had a huge legal battle with the service and eventually got out. Should he have been permitted to do so? Should he have been ordered to serve out his time? I'm not sure if I would want to be sitting in the seat next to him if he was consumed with frustration and anger about not being able to get out and fly for big bucks.

For what it's worth though, I see your point. He has been given a very good education and he was morally obligated to his return of service for that education.

But pointing out that his problems were caused - apparently - by his own actions and that while his religious and cultural values contributed to his sense of frustration and anger and probably fear but that they couldn't be generalised to Muslims, whether they are serving in the military or not, is not appeasement.

 

[JW Frogen]

I wish I was half the cop she is!

She put that mother fucker down quick time, and while being hit several times.

I like it.

I bet she is a wild cat in bed too.

 

[WillowTree]

Careful Willow, any more stretching and you'll bust something

what part was stretched?

The "appeasers" bit. It seems that any attempt to look at an issue objectively brings up the assertion of "appeaser". It's not just a stretch, it's a calculated smear.

This bloke for example. He apparently got his education in return for service. I know that is the case in my country in the military as well. And some people do try and get out of it. I know one bloke who was an RAAF pilot who wanted to get out and work for an overseas airline, he had a huge legal battle with the service and eventually got out. Should he have been permitted to do so? Should he have been ordered to serve out his time? I'm not sure if I would want to be sitting in the seat next to him if he was consumed with frustration and anger about not being able to get out and fly for big bucks.

For what it's worth though, I see your point. He has been given a very good education and he was morally obligated to his return of service for that education.

But pointing out that his problems were caused - apparently - by his own actions and that while his religious and cultural values contributed to his sense of frustration and anger and probably fear but that they couldn't be generalised to Muslims, whether they are serving in the military or not, is not appeasement.

I think you misunderstand what we are saying when we say appeasement, maybe a better term is "politically correct".

 

[JenyEliza]

Anyway, about Officer Kimberley Munley.

1. Courageous
2. Professional
3. Handled the active shooter incident in a manner which followed recent doctrine and stopped many more casualties.
4. The next time I hear someone say women can't do police work I am going to tear strips off them (verbally, I'm not a violent man).

I hope Officer Munley is recognised for her outstanding bravery and professionalism.

You're a cop, of course you'd say that.
(Just pulling your chain )

I wish I was half the cop she is!

The first step is to give Oz cops a gun -- and a bullet. Everything else flows from there.
(I kid, I kid)

 

[Diuretic]

what part was stretched?

The "appeasers" bit. It seems that any attempt to look at an issue objectively brings up the assertion of "appeaser". It's not just a stretch, it's a calculated smear.

This bloke for example. He apparently got his education in return for service. I know that is the case in my country in the military as well. And some people do try and get out of it. I know one bloke who was an RAAF pilot who wanted to get out and work for an overseas airline, he had a huge legal battle with the service and eventually got out. Should he have been permitted to do so? Should he have been ordered to serve out his time? I'm not sure if I would want to be sitting in the seat next to him if he was consumed with frustration and anger about not being able to get out and fly for big bucks.

For what it's worth though, I see your point. He has been given a very good education and he was morally obligated to his return of service for that education.

But pointing out that his problems were caused - apparently - by his own actions and that while his religious and cultural values contributed to his sense of frustration and anger and probably fear but that they couldn't be generalised to Muslims, whether they are serving in the military or not, is not appeasement.

I think you misunderstand what we are saying when we say appeasement, maybe a better term is "politically correct".

That could well be my mistake. I have to admit that when I see or hear the word my mind starts running the Neville Chamberlain newsreel, probably that's what's going on with me.

As for "politically correct", I don't mean to sound cranky but I think that gets too much of a run as well sometimes. I agree that some time ago it became bloody ridiculous but now it seems to have shifted its meaning. Now again I have to acknowledge that I may have a different view of its meaning than an American. And that could well lead me down a blind alley. For me PC is the ridiculous behaviour where public and private authorities act so as to "not offend." Golliwogs were banned in the UK I think because it was seen as offensive to dark skinned people to have them on sale in shops. That's PC, well my understanding of it.

But arguing that ethnicity, religion, cultural values can't be used to broadly condemn isn't PC.

Take this bloke:

JERUSALEM: Yaakov Teitel is the new face of Israel's extreme right-wing religious movement. A fanatical Jewish settler from the tiny outpost of Shvut Rahel in the northern West Bank, Teitel flashed the peace sign as he was led from an Israeli courtroom this week.

But after confessing to a string of murders and hate crimes over the past 12 years, Teitel has emerged as anything but a peacemaker.

Branded a ''Jewish terrorist'', the 37-year-old father of four has already admitted to the murders of two Palestinians in 1997 and the pipe-bombing of the left-wing Israeli academic Zeev Sternhell this year

Man of hatred shocks the land he calls home

Would it be fair to take this fellow as an example and from that generalise to all Jews? Or even all Jewish settlers in the disputed territories? I don't think it's fair to do that. This bloke is alleged to have done these things as an individual. Yes his view of his religion and culture have been used by him to justify his actions to himself. But that doesn't taint his religion or his culture. The bloke could well be a nutter and that's the issue, not his religion or his culture.

 

[JakeStarkey]

appeasement: The policy of granting concessions to potential enemies to maintain.

politically correct: Of, relating to, or supporting broad social, political, and educational change, especially to redress historical injustices in matters such as race, class, gender, and sexual orientation.
Being or perceived as being overconcerned with such change, often to the exclusion of other matters.
asknow.com

 

[Vel]

Exhibit 1: He was a Muslim
Exhibit 2: He wanted out of the military after 9/11! I think most of us remember the surge in recruitment back then.
Exhibit 3: He attacked US soldiers
Exhibit 4: He was extremely upset with the war in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Exhibit 5: He expressed views that America was the aggressor
Exhibit 6: He wrote blogs praising suicide bombers as true soldiers
Exhibit 7: It was confirmed that as he was shooting American soldiers he yelled "Allah Akbar!"

I think the burden of proof as shifted to the appeasers here!

Appeasers? What a bloody stupid position to take. This was an individual act, the way you're banging on you'd think every second Muslim in the States was firing away at people. Yes it's tragic but put it into perspective. One man apparently went nutso. The reasons for him going nutso were apparently related to his religion and cultural identity and his imminent posting to a war zone in an Islamic country occupied by western forces. Appeasers? That's not appeasing, it's simply trying to understand what happened.

I think the point that most people are trying to make is that if this guy HADN'T been Muslim, military authorities would probably been more reactive to the odd behavior he'd displayed. In today's PC world everyone is so afraid of being branded a bigot or a racist or a xenophobe or whatever other name people apply that they'll overlook the obvious. It's a sad thing that people's safety is compromised for political correctness.

 

[JW Frogen]

The first step is to give Oz cops a gun -- and a bullet. Everything else flows from there.
(I kid, I kid)

If the Australian government could find a way to raise revenue by shooting people, believe me they would do it, and tell us it is for our own safety.

 

[BolshevikHunter]

Ah Oh well, we wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings just to save a few good folks lives. ~BH

 

[JenyEliza]

The first step is to give Oz cops a gun -- and a bullet. Everything else flows from there.
(I kid, I kid)

If the Australian government could find a way to raise revenue by shooting people, believe me they would do it, and tell us it is for our own safety.

I've noticed the Aussie gov has a fondness for GST. On everything, so I suppose you are completely right! And.....Rudd's folks *would* tell you it was for your own darned good too.