Cake or No Cake – Arizona’s Religious Freedom Bill

[PaintMyHouse]

And you expect to have a complete understanding? I don't know anyone including myself who has a complete understanding of the Bible. Is it like you to place unfair expectations on people?

Yes, I expect them to be better than they are, and they never live up to it.

How judgmental. Should you know my "Holy Book" better than I do, why is it you miss this part?

7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Matthew 7:1-5

I expected you to be an intelligent and rational individual, lo and behold I was let down.

I judge and have no problem being judged. How's that working out for you? Are you willing to test your list of sins against another, to see who is more worthy in God's eyes? Are you the First or the Last? Is that first or last here or there? Eternity is on the line for you so choose wisely. Tell us, have you done unto the least of them as Jesus commanded?

 

[TemplarKormac]

The new law rules there brain-trust, not the old. If the old law ruled we'd still be burning witches, and Christians for that matter.

Are you nuts? All American law is supposed to be derived from a Constitutional origin!

Whoever told you that was a fool. So, who was that?

Given that all federal laws rely on the Constitution to exist, over 150 years of case law is "who" tells me that.

Do you want to debate law and justice next? So where in the Constitution does it order people to "burn witches and Christians for that matter?" You do realize how idiotic your argument is, correct?

If you're referring to the Salem Witch Trials in 1692, this occurred 89 years before the foundation of the United States and the ratification of the Constitution. So tell me again how only "new law is supposed to rule the brain-trust" again? I have no idea where you got the burning Christians part from though.

Case in point: The Constitution IS the old law, and it is still pertinent law, it is the basis for which all Federal Law is derived in America.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Perhaps you were unaware of Colossians 3:23-24?

23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

Terrific. When you bake cakes for a living who are your human masters? Are they maybe the ones paying your bills by buying the cakes?

Most certainly not ones who ask me to serve them against my faith. If I run my own business, PMH, only God is my master. I am the one who pays the bills and bakes the cakes, nobody else, that is unless I choose to hire employees. In that case I would BE the master. Who are my human masters? As far as this world goes, I am my own master. As far as my faith goes, God is my master.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Are you nuts? All American law is supposed to be derived from a Constitutional origin!

Whoever told you that was a fool. So, who was that?

Given that all federal laws has a rely on the Constitution to exist, over 150 years of case law is "who" tells me that.

Do you want to debate law and justice next? So where in the Constitution does it order people to "burn witches and Christians for that matter?" You do realize how idiotic your argument is, correct?

If you're referring to the Salem Witch Trials in 1692, this occurred 89 years before the foundation of the United States and the ratification of the Constitution. So tell me again how only "new law is supposed to rule the brain-trust" again? I have no idea where you got the burning Christians part from though.

Case in point: The Constitution IS the old law, and it is still pertinent law, it is the basis for which all Federal Law is derived in America.

Saying the Constitution rules here is as dumb as saying Roman or Christian law rules here. None of them have speed limits and yet we do. It is our law. It's not Constitutional and it's not required that it be Constitutional. If you wish to say that the Old Law rules, go play with the kiddos who think there are no limitations on rights grated by the Constitution. I'm not interested. Been there, argued that. They lost but they still try.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Perhaps you were unaware of Colossians 3:23-24?

Terrific. When you bake cakes for a living who are your human masters? Are they maybe the ones paying your bills by buying the cakes?

Most certainly not ones who ask me to serve them against my faith. If I run my own business, PMH, only God is my master. I am the one who pays the bills and bakes the cakes, nobody else, that is unless I choose to hire employees. In that case I would BE the master. Who are my human masters? As far as this world goes, I am my own master. As far as my faith goes, God is my master.

So you are both the servant and the master then? Interesting, and also, wrong. Can't help you out here, you're not competent.

Tell me though, but this is really for others reading this not you, when Jesus commanded that wages be paid out daily, who was the Master then? Was it the man with the cash who paid for the work? Like say maybe, a field to be harvested, or a cake to be baked? Were the men in the field serving God while they were working for a man who paid them wages as the scripture says? Were the ones who baked the cake doing the same, working for the man but really serving God at the same time? They did have Human Masters right? The ones who paid their wages maybe?

Tell us, why do we say someone is Serving the Customers? What does that imply about the relationship between the Servant and the Master? Is maybe one working for the other in that case?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Yes, I expect them to be better than they are, and they never live up to it.

How judgmental. Should you know my "Holy Book" better than I do, why is it you miss this part?

7 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Matthew 7:1-5

I expected you to be an intelligent and rational individual, lo and behold I was let down.

I judge and have no problem being judged. How's that working out for you? Are you willing to test your list of sins against another, to see who is more worthy in God's eyes? Are you the First or the Last? Is that first or last here or there? Eternity is on the line for you so choose wisely. Tell us, have you done unto the least of them as Jesus commanded?

How does this work out for me? It tells me you are a hypocrite who sets massive double standards for others and himself. You have no problem being a judge or judging, but have every problem when gays are judged. As for who God sees as superior, he doesn't. All men are created equal in his eyes, he loves them all just the same. There is no man or woman more worthy in God's eyes than another. They will all be judged equally in God's sight.

"He who is without sin, cast the first stone." You may as well drop the rock my friend. As for "doing unto the least of them" as it says Matthew 25:40, I have. I have and still do donate money to the homeless, I've helped feed and clothe them, I have three gay friends which I show tolerance and respect for and would help at the drop of a hat. I care for my sickly grandmother. I do plenty of things to "do unto the least of them." I've donated toys and clothing to needy children. Even as a child I actively participated in can drives to help the hungry at school.. Can we say the same for you? Or all you all talk?

So, my question to you now is, how can you expect me to be the model Christian, when you yourself know so little about my faith and are yourself not a Christian? How can you sit there and trample on the beliefs of those pious to appease your political ones? One other thing. Only God can determine my "eternity" you are a mere mortal, a human being who holds little sway with me.

I am neither first nor last. I am a sinner, just as you are.

 

[Clementine]

Since religious rights are not being respected, they should have done what the chicken place did- just tout family values and then the gay community would have boycotted them.

I don't have issues with gay marriage, but can't understand why people would take their business to people that don't approve of their life style for whatever reason.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

How judgmental. Should you know my "Holy Book" better than I do, why is it you miss this part?



Matthew 7:1-5

I expected you to be an intelligent and rational individual, lo and behold I was let down.

I judge and have no problem being judged. How's that working out for you? Are you willing to test your list of sins against another, to see who is more worthy in God's eyes? Are you the First or the Last? Is that first or last here or there? Eternity is on the line for you so choose wisely. Tell us, have you done unto the least of them as Jesus commanded?

How does this work out for me? It tells me you are a hypocrite who sets massive double standards for others and himself. You have no problem being a judge or judging, but have every problem when gays are judged. As for who God sees as superior, he doesn't. All men are created equal in his eyes, he loves them all just the same. There is no man or woman more worthy in God's eyes than another. They will all be judged equally in God's sight.

"He who is without sin, cast the first stone." You may as well drop the rock my friend. As for "doing unto the least of them" as it says Matthew 25:40, I have. I have and still do donate money to the homeless, I've helped feed and clothe them, I have three gay friends which I show tolerance and respect for and would help at the drop of a hat. I care for my sickly grandmother. I do plenty of things to "do unto the least of them." I've donated toys and clothing to needy children. Even as a child I actively participated in can drives to help the hungry at school.. Can we say the same for you? Or all you all talk?

So, my question to you now is, how can you expect me to be the model Christian, when you yourself know so little about my faith and are yourself not a Christian? How can you sit there and trample on the beliefs of those pious to appease your political ones? One other thing. Only God can determine my "eternity" you are a mere mortal, a human being who holds little sway with me.

I am neither first nor last. I am a sinner, just as you are.

You seem to believe that Christianity is based upon actions? Do you know the word for that? Do you know why Saved through Grace means both you can be saved by your faith but that even then you can end up rotting in Hell, that it's God's Will? Do you believe that you are saving souls here by calling Liberals scum and arguing politics?

Do you believe that only Christians can know Christianity? Might it not be possible for someone to reject the faith not because they don't know it but the exact opposite, because they know it very well indeed? And I have no problem with you judging people, I just wouldn't want to stand before your God, with his list of sins, and say that I should be allowed into Heaven while this faggot over there is unworthy? By not serving them, not doing unto the least of them, meaning Jesus himself, that is what your actions show. You judged them to be unworthy. What do you think Jesus will have to say to you about that knowing his teaching of the beam in your own eye? To my way of thinking, that would be a very uncomfortable position to be in because maybe, just maybe, I had made myself first, a judge, and now will be last.

It's your faith, but I know it very well. Think on it. Your God works in mysterious ways right? Can you honestly say, for sure, that I am not speaking for him? Give it some thought. It might humble you a bit, and Jesus is a fan of such things. I know because I read what he is reported to have said...

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Since religious rights are not being respected, they should have done what the chicken place did- just tout family values and then the gay community would have boycotted them.

I don't have issues with gay marriage, but can't understand why people would take their business to people that don't approve of their life style for whatever reason.

Because it's business, not Group Hug time at preschool.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Terrific. When you bake cakes for a living who are your human masters? Are they maybe the ones paying your bills by buying the cakes?

Most certainly not ones who ask me to serve them against my faith. If I run my own business, PMH, only God is my master. I am the one who pays the bills and bakes the cakes, nobody else, that is unless I choose to hire employees. In that case I would BE the master. Who are my human masters? As far as this world goes, I am my own master. As far as my faith goes, God is my master.

So you are both the servant and the master then? Interesting, and also, wrong. Can't help you out here, you're not competent.

Tell me though, but this is really for others reading this not you, when Jesus commanded that wages be paid out daily, who was the Master then? Was it the man with the cash who paid for the work? Like say maybe, a field to be harvested, or a cake to be baked? Were the men in the field serving God while they were working for a man who paid them wages as the scripture says? Were the ones who baked the cake doing the same, working for the man but really serving God at the same time? They did have Human Masters right? The ones who paid their wages maybe?

Tell us, why do we say someone is Serving the Customers? What does that imply about the relationship between the Servant and the Master? Is maybe one working for the other in that case?

Tell me though, but this is really for others reading this not you, when Jesus commanded that wages be paid out daily, who was the Master then? Was it the man with the cash who paid for the work?

Jesus, if he indeed ever gave such a command. But where in the Bible does Jesus actually command that people be paid a monetary salary?

In Luke 10:3, Jesus was speaking to a group of 70 people. He spoke of a worker being "worthy of his wages." Even still, you would be taking that out of context. When he says a worker is worthy of his wages, he speaks of sustenance, not of monetary profit. Given that Jesus never paid his disciples a discernible salary, to say Jesus commanded others to pay daily wages is thus false. In Matthew 10:7-10, Jesus commands his disciples not to take in money for themselves for performing miracles, but he commands them "Freely you received, freely give" instead. "A worker" he goes on to say "is worthy of his support."

Luke 10:3-9
3"Go; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves.
4 "Carry no money belt, no bag, no shoes; and greet no one on the way.
5 "Whatever house you enter, first say, `Peace be to this house.
6 "If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; but if not, it will return to you.
7 "Stay in that house, eating and drinking what they give you; for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not keep moving from house to house.
8 "Whatever city you enter and they receive you, eat what is set before you;
9 and heal those in it who are sick, and say to them, `The kingdom of God has come near to you."

Were the men in the field serving God while they were working for a man who paid them wages as the scripture says?

There are multiple stories in the Bible about men tilling fields, there's the story of the talents, the story of the men being paid equal wages despite doing more or less work than the other... You'll have to be more specific. Or are you being that vague on purpose?

Were the ones who baked the cake doing the same, working for the man but really serving God at the same time?

Yes, given that Romans speaks of obeying the governing authorities, so long as their laws don't conflict with God's will. But if serving someone means you must fly in the face of God to do it, forget it.

They did have Human Masters right? The ones who paid their wages maybe?

Do you know anything about business? These business owners are self employed, meaning they pay their own salaries. So once again, they are their own masters in this case.

Tell us, why do we say someone is Serving the Customers? What does that imply about the relationship between the Servant and the Master? Is maybe one working for the other in that case?

Because we say we will serve the customers. That implies a promise between the proprietor and the buyer. The proprietor works for himself, by serving the customers. Given that, the proprietor has the right to refuse business, meaning in a sense, that he can choose not to "work" for the buyer. He can just as easily find business from someone else. So this "Servant and Master" analogy is flawed.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I judge and have no problem being judged. How's that working out for you? Are you willing to test your list of sins against another, to see who is more worthy in God's eyes? Are you the First or the Last? Is that first or last here or there? Eternity is on the line for you so choose wisely. Tell us, have you done unto the least of them as Jesus commanded?

How does this work out for me? It tells me you are a hypocrite who sets massive double standards for others and himself. You have no problem being a judge or judging, but have every problem when gays are judged. As for who God sees as superior, he doesn't. All men are created equal in his eyes, he loves them all just the same. There is no man or woman more worthy in God's eyes than another. They will all be judged equally in God's sight.

"He who is without sin, cast the first stone." You may as well drop the rock my friend. As for "doing unto the least of them" as it says Matthew 25:40, I have. I have and still do donate money to the homeless, I've helped feed and clothe them, I have three gay friends which I show tolerance and respect for and would help at the drop of a hat. I care for my sickly grandmother. I do plenty of things to "do unto the least of them." I've donated toys and clothing to needy children. Even as a child I actively participated in can drives to help the hungry at school.. Can we say the same for you? Or all you all talk?

So, my question to you now is, how can you expect me to be the model Christian, when you yourself know so little about my faith and are yourself not a Christian? How can you sit there and trample on the beliefs of those pious to appease your political ones? One other thing. Only God can determine my "eternity" you are a mere mortal, a human being who holds little sway with me.

I am neither first nor last. I am a sinner, just as you are.

You seem to believe that Christianity is based upon actions? Do you know the word for that? Do you know why Saved through Grace means both you can be saved by your faith but that even then you can end up rotting in Hell, that it's God's Will? Do you believe that you are saving souls here by calling Liberals scum and arguing politics?

Do you believe that only Christians can know Christianity? Might it not be possible for someone to reject the faith not because they don't know it but the exact opposite, because they know it very well indeed? And I have no problem with you judging people, I just wouldn't want to stand before your God, with his list of sins, and say that I should be allowed into Heaven while this faggot over there is unworthy? By not serving them, not doing unto the least of them, meaning Jesus himself, that is what your actions show. You judged them to be unworthy. What do you think Jesus will have to say to you about that knowing his teaching of the beam in your own eye? To my way of thinking, that would be a very uncomfortable position to be in because maybe, just maybe, I had made myself first, a judge, and now will be last.

It's your faith, but I know it very well. Think on it. Your God works in mysterious ways right? Can you honestly say, for sure, that I am not speaking for him? Give it some thought. It might humble you a bit, and Jesus is a fan of such things. I know because I read what he is reported to have said...

Yes yes, you can keep lecturing me, but I will continue matching or exceeding you word for word.

"Faith without works is dead" in other words. Oh yes, lets see you put your knowledge of the Bible on display. You purport to know so much, lets see it.

You seem to believe that Christianity is based upon actions? Do you know the word for that? Do you know why Saved through Grace means both you can be saved by your faith but that even then you can end up rotting in Hell, that it's God's Will? Do you believe that you are saving souls here by calling Liberals scum and arguing politics?

"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you. 7"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words."

-Matthew 6:6-7

Perhaps you forget the reason for which Jesus died on the cross. For the salvation of all mankind. Only you can sentence yourself to eternal damnation by rejecting this gift via your own sinfulness. God will simply facilitate the process.

You are referring to Ephesians 2:8

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.…

You are misquoting the Bible, and me. Nowhere have I said anyone is going to hell because "it's God's will." I don't know what God's will is, and neither do you. Not even the angels in heaven know of God's plans for this universe.

Do you believe that only Christians can know Christianity? Might it not be possible for someone to reject the faith not because they don't know it but the exact opposite, because they know it very well indeed?

I believe people who take the time to know the inner workings of the faith and practice the faith can truly "know the faith." To presume you know more about my faith than me, an actual practicing member of such faith, is arrogant and condescending. People such as yourself are prone to stereotyping as well, based of your limited experiences with Christians in general. You are like all the rest, you presume to know all there is to know, yet you never grasp the true meaning. To you the Bible is a book, full of contradictions and fallacies. To me the Bible is a message, a set of instructions, an indisputable explanation of God's will. How can you judge us without first being one of us?

You know nothing.

And I have no problem with you judging people, I just wouldn't want to stand before your God, with his list of sins, and say that I should be allowed into Heaven while this faggot over there is unworthy?

God is sinless. You blaspheme his name by calling him a sinner. God does work in mysterious ways, and he doesn't expect people like you to understand, let alone comprehend his plans. Everyone has a chance to be redeemed, it is their choice to accept it.

By not serving them, not doing unto the least of them, meaning Jesus himself, that is what your actions show.

Actually, I'm doing as I have been instructed by the Bible to do. Contend for the faith. I have already debunked your "not doing for the least of them" argument. Jesus is not "least" nor is he "gay." And where do you get off referring to homosexuals as "least"? Aren't they all supposed to be equal in your eyes? As in not inferior? Perhaps you need to perform a bit of self introspection. I think you have no more respect for homosexuals than you claim I don't have.

You judged them to be unworthy.

I never said that. Don't put words in my mouth. If I thought they were unworthy, I wouldn't keep three of them as my friends. Understand?

What do you think Jesus will have to say to you about that knowing his teaching of the beam in your own eye? To my way of thinking, that would be a very uncomfortable position to be in because maybe, just maybe, I had made myself first, a judge, and now will be last.

"To my way of thinking" you say. Does it occur to you that there are other ways of thinking apart from your own? You presume to be a God unto yourself. That's textbook narcissism.

It's your faith, but I know it very well.

Prove it. Because as of now, I'm running you into the ground. You demonstrate no requisite knowledge of my faith, you prove that by retreating to "your way of thinking." You know nothing of my faith, and I suggest you stop presuming to know unless you decide to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. You are like someone who says "I'm a physicist!" but knows not the first basic equation..

Can you honestly say, for sure, that I am not speaking for him?

You are no agent of God. I can say that for certain.

It might humble you a bit, and Jesus is a fan of such things. I know because I read what he is reported to have said.

He isn't a fan of dishonesty. This statement right here proves you have no idea what you're talking about.

1) How many Books of the Bible are there?

2) God came to the Israelites and issued a set of 612 commands to his people in the Old Testament. What are the set of commands called?

3) What was the name of the Pharaoh who chased the Hebrews into the Red Sea?

4) By what means did God stop the Pharaoh from reaching the Hebrews during the time they crossed the Red Sea?

5) In what town was Jesus born?

6) Name all 10 plagues, in chronological order. Name their effects. Also, what did God command the Hebrews to do when as he commenced the 10th plague?

I could go on and on, but I know this for certain. You barked up the wrong tree.

 

[The2ndAmendment]

Hey Jesus-freak, bake the stupid fucking cake. It's a cake, not a vow for all eternity before Jesus and God Almighty.

Did you just call me a "Jesus freak?"

Your argument is invalid.

I called her one. And I have a country full of judges and people who disagree with you. Now what?

So, if you passed a law the coerced people to bake cakes against their belief, you think you'd get a unanimous Jury conviction on more than 1 out of 70-80 cases?

 

[TemplarKormac]

I can keep this up all night PMH. I have been a practicing Christian for almost 20 years.

 

[Howey]

Lol...even when losing the phobes never quit whining.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Lol...even when losing the phobes never quit whining.

And what have you to contribute to this discussion?

 

[FlourPower]

Oh thank goodness. Jan Brewer has decided to let them eat cake.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Oh thank goodness. Jan Brewer has decided to let them eat cake.

Which makes you wonder, why are they making such a big deal out of cake?

 

[FlourPower]

I suppose it may be because millions of them are planning to migrate to AZ and they all have the munchies?

(I shall soon learn how to quote, apologies)

 

[Truthseeker420]

Republicans will fight to the death to help the rich but fold like a cheap suit over religious freedom.

 

[TemplarKormac]

I suppose it may be because millions of them are planning to migrate to AZ and they all have the munchies?

(I shall soon learn how to quote, apologies)

Ha!

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