Can Atheists be Moral?

[hobelim]

Really? You are going to leave it at that?

Maybe you don't know how the universe began. Is that the problem?

He seems pretty intelligent, I just havent discovered why he doesnt proclaim his own actual beliefs. You, youre just a whiny twat on the internet with poor reasoning skills.

Whats left to say today? He and I will converse again.

I really don't understand how you or anyone would think that I haven't already openly stated by beliefs especially after you try to discredit them...Am I speaking in a strange language that you don't understand? Having trouble retaining information?

Are you looking for a creed? A manifesto?

lol.. "heads I win tails you lose?"

Find another sucker.

Im not sure why you couldnt answer a direct question with a direct answer, that's all....but it doesnt really matter to me, so. Do you, playboy.

Hey, I was just trying to make a distinction between the creation story in genesis what children were expected to know and what no one can possible know.

I do not like to conflate the two entirely different subjects. One thing has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the other.

So when was the universe created? How was the universe created? Where was God when the universe was created? Did God create the universe? Here's your big opportunity to explain it all.

When was the universe created? It wasn't.

How was it created? It wasn't.

Did God create the universe? No. The universe does not exist.

God created heaven and earth.


Where was God? God was exactly where he is.

 

[Mindful]

Do you want me to read you a bedtime story?

No, I'd like your opinion on where/when/how existence came to be. Youre obviously drawn to these discussions ~ declining to offer your own view would allude to you being a bad faith actor.

Ok, fair enough.


Before God created heaven and earth the world was without form and void and darkness covered the face of the deep for billions of years.

Every living thing on the planet was trapped in the violent struggle for survival, eat or be eaten. People were brute unthinking animals. The survival of the fittest and all that.

Then God said, let there be light, and the law came down from heaven like a tree of life to teach the wild beasts of the field to distinguish between clean and unclean, right and wrong, good and evil, life and death.

and so man was raised up from the dust of the earth and became aware, a living being..... and then fucked it all up, threw his mind in the trash and said with clenched fist raised in anger against God, I will not stop being a dick

When did the universe begin? How did the universe begin? Where was God before the universe began.

Please don't tell me the universe has always existed because then I will have to bitch slap you with science.

How do you know it hasn't always existed? Are you going to bitch slap me too, for the impertinence of daring to question you?

The short answer? The second law of thermodynamics.

That was a great question BTW.

Tells me nothing.

Our part animal, part lizard brains are programmed for beginnings and endings. Even I can't get my head round 'always was, always is, and will be'. But if there was a beginning, how does your science and second laws of whatevers explain what happened before that beginning?

 

[G.T.]

Funny, but really its a good thing to know about ya.

Really? You are going to leave it at that?

Maybe you don't know how the universe began. Is that the problem?

He seems pretty intelligent, I just havent discovered why he doesnt proclaim his own actual beliefs. You, youre just a whiny twat on the internet with poor reasoning skills.

Whats left to say today? He and I will converse again.

I really don't understand how you or anyone would think that I haven't already openly stated by beliefs especially after you try to discredit them...Am I speaking in a strange language that you don't understand? Having trouble retaining information?

Are you looking for a creed? A manifesto?

lol.. "heads I win tails you lose?"

Find another sucker.

Im not sure why you couldnt answer a direct question with a direct answer, that's all....but it doesnt really matter to me, so. Do you, playboy.

Hey, I was just trying to make a distinction between the creation story in genesis, what Hebrew children were expected to know about the beginning of their culture, and what no one can possibly know.

I do not like to conflate the two entirely different subjects. One thing has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the other.

No biggy.

 

[ding]

lol...Lets see if everyone is still talking about the cat in the hat or the little mermaid in 2000 years. Maybe entire societies will be based on Hop on Pop.....

I sincerely doubt that Jesus will be any more or less relevant in 2000 years than my currently perceived wardrobe.

Actually the cotton tee shirt is almost SURE to outlast the bronze aged Nun books that teach the derps that its probably not a good idea to be a dick all the time.

Hmmm.... Toynbee felt that way about the Jews too.

You mean that doyenne of the Left; Polly?

I don't even know what that means. All I know is that the Jews were the only hole in his argument and he predicted their demise in a fashion similar to the one where GT predicted the demise of Jesus.

Polly Toynbee. She writes for The Guardian.

As for the demise of the Jews, that was attempted by 'you know who'. In fact there was a memorial erected by the Germans, to commemorate a lost civilisation and culture BEFORE they'd all been finished off. I visited it in Krakow.

Ahhhh.... now I get it. No, Arnold Toynbee.

"...Over three hundred years ago King Louis XIV of France asked Blaise Pascal, the great French philosopher of his day, to give him proof of the existence of miracles. Without a moment's hesitation, Pascal answered,"Why, the Jews, your Majesty-the Jews."

We don't have to speculate what Pascal meant when he gave this answer, because he took the trouble to spell it out. In his masterwork, Pensees, he explained that the fact that the Jewish people had survived until the seventeenth century-the time period in which he lived-was nothing short of a supernatural phenomenon.

Pascal is but one of many scholars and students of Jewish history who have been awed by a story that seems inexplicable by the ordinary rules of logic. When Arnold Toynbee completed his classic ten-volume analysis of the rise and fall of human civilizations, A Study of History, he was troubled by only one seeming refutation of his universal rules governing the inexorable decline of every people on earth. Only the Jews had survived, in defiance of Toynbee's carefully reasoned analysis. So Toynbee proclaimed the Jews nothing more than"a vestigial remnant," a people destined soon to perish..."

The Miracle of Jewish History | History News Network


British historian, philosopher of history, author of numerous books and research professor of international history at the London School of Economics and King's College in the University of London. Toynbee in the 1918–1950 period was a leading specialist on international affairs. He is best known for his 12-volume A Study of History (1934–1961). With his prodigious output of papers, articles, speeches and presentations, and numerous books translated into many languages, Toynbee was a widely read and discussed scholar in the 1940s and 1950s.

Arnold J. Toynbee - Wikipedia

 

[Mindful]

Yes, I know Arnold Toynbee, Ding.

I was just testing you.

 

[ding]

No, I'd like your opinion on where/when/how existence came to be. Youre obviously drawn to these discussions ~ declining to offer your own view would allude to you being a bad faith actor.

Ok, fair enough.


Before God created heaven and earth the world was without form and void and darkness covered the face of the deep for billions of years.

Every living thing on the planet was trapped in the violent struggle for survival, eat or be eaten. People were brute unthinking animals. The survival of the fittest and all that.

Then God said, let there be light, and the law came down from heaven like a tree of life to teach the wild beasts of the field to distinguish between clean and unclean, right and wrong, good and evil, life and death.

and so man was raised up from the dust of the earth and became aware, a living being..... and then fucked it all up, threw his mind in the trash and said with clenched fist raised in anger against God, I will not stop being a dick

When did the universe begin? How did the universe begin? Where was God before the universe began.

Please don't tell me the universe has always existed because then I will have to bitch slap you with science.

How do you know it hasn't always existed? Are you going to bitch slap me too, for the impertinence of daring to question you?

The short answer? The second law of thermodynamics.

That was a great question BTW.

Tells me nothing.

Our part animal, part lizard brains are programmed for beginnings and endings. Even I can't get my head round 'always was, always is, and will be'. But if there was a beginning, how does your science and second laws of whatevers explain what happened before that beginning?

Ok, long answer....

Red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and the Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that space and time did have a beginning. If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. For every matter to energy or energy to matter exchange there is a loss of usable energy. So while the total energy of the universe does not decrease, the usable energy of the universe does decrease. If it is a periodic or cyclical universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem. Since we do not see thermal equilibrium (good thing too because there would be no life) we know that the universe did have a beginning.

 

[ding]

Yes, I know Arnold Toynbee, Ding.

I was just testing you.

Did you misspell teasing?

 

[ding]

Really? You are going to leave it at that?

Maybe you don't know how the universe began. Is that the problem?

He seems pretty intelligent, I just havent discovered why he doesnt proclaim his own actual beliefs. You, youre just a whiny twat on the internet with poor reasoning skills.

Whats left to say today? He and I will converse again.

I really don't understand how you or anyone would think that I haven't already openly stated by beliefs especially after you try to discredit them...Am I speaking in a strange language that you don't understand? Having trouble retaining information?

Are you looking for a creed? A manifesto?

lol.. "heads I win tails you lose?"

Find another sucker.

Im not sure why you couldnt answer a direct question with a direct answer, that's all....but it doesnt really matter to me, so. Do you, playboy.

Hey, I was just trying to make a distinction between the creation story in genesis, what Hebrew children were expected to know about the beginning of their culture, and what no one can possibly know.

I do not like to conflate the two entirely different subjects. One thing has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the other.

No biggy.

Actually the account of Genesis is exactly about the creation of space and time. Specifically it is the allegorical account of how existence had a beginning and that man is a product of that creation. That man arose from what was created. All things proven true by science 6000 years later.

 

[Mindful]

Ok, fair enough.


Before God created heaven and earth the world was without form and void and darkness covered the face of the deep for billions of years.

Every living thing on the planet was trapped in the violent struggle for survival, eat or be eaten. People were brute unthinking animals. The survival of the fittest and all that.

Then God said, let there be light, and the law came down from heaven like a tree of life to teach the wild beasts of the field to distinguish between clean and unclean, right and wrong, good and evil, life and death.

and so man was raised up from the dust of the earth and became aware, a living being..... and then fucked it all up, threw his mind in the trash and said with clenched fist raised in anger against God, I will not stop being a dick

When did the universe begin? How did the universe begin? Where was God before the universe began.

Please don't tell me the universe has always existed because then I will have to bitch slap you with science.

How do you know it hasn't always existed? Are you going to bitch slap me too, for the impertinence of daring to question you?

The short answer? The second law of thermodynamics.

That was a great question BTW.

Tells me nothing.

Our part animal, part lizard brains are programmed for beginnings and endings. Even I can't get my head round 'always was, always is, and will be'. But if there was a beginning, how does your science and second laws of whatevers explain what happened before that beginning?

Ok, long answer....

Red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and the Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that space and time did have a beginning. If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. For every matter to energy or energy to matter exchange there is a loss of usable energy. So while the total energy of the universe does not decrease, the usable energy of the universe does decrease. If it is a periodic or cyclical universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem. Since we do not see thermal equilibrium (good thing too because there would be no life) we know that the universe did have a beginning.

Where do morals and atheists come into this?

 

[ding]

An expert witness in support of the position that the big bang matches the account of creation in the Bible:

Similarly, Bar Ilan University’s Professor Nathan Aviezer, author of the book In the Beginning, told The Times of Israel, this discovery “isn’t going to make anyone who wasn’t a believer in God into one, or vice versa, but one thing the announcement does do is make it clear that the universe had a definite starting point — a creation — as described in the Book of Genesis,” said Aviezer. “To deny this now is to deny scientific fact.”

“Without addressing who or what caused it, the mechanics of the creation process in the Big Bang match the Genesis story perfectly. If I had to make up a theory to match the first passages in Genesis, the Big Bang theory would be it,” said Aviezer.

“It’s an example of Divine irony that it took atheistic scientists like [Nobel laureate Paul] Dirac and all the others to point out the truth of the Torah. At this point I think we can say that creation is a scientific fact.”

Could New Scientific Discovery Support Creation?

Nathan Aviezer - Wikipedia

 

[ding]

When did the universe begin? How did the universe begin? Where was God before the universe began.

Please don't tell me the universe has always existed because then I will have to bitch slap you with science.

How do you know it hasn't always existed? Are you going to bitch slap me too, for the impertinence of daring to question you?

The short answer? The second law of thermodynamics.

That was a great question BTW.

Tells me nothing.

Our part animal, part lizard brains are programmed for beginnings and endings. Even I can't get my head round 'always was, always is, and will be'. But if there was a beginning, how does your science and second laws of whatevers explain what happened before that beginning?

Ok, long answer....

Red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and the Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that space and time did have a beginning. If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. For every matter to energy or energy to matter exchange there is a loss of usable energy. So while the total energy of the universe does not decrease, the usable energy of the universe does decrease. If it is a periodic or cyclical universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem. Since we do not see thermal equilibrium (good thing too because there would be no life) we know that the universe did have a beginning.

Where do morals and atheists come into this?

Five left turns ago?

 

[Mindful]

Yes, I know Arnold Toynbee, Ding.

I was just testing you.

Did you misspell teasing?

No.

Teasing would be misconstrued as flirting by some backward thinking people.

 

[ding]

But if there was a beginning, how does your science and second laws of whatevers explain what happened before that beginning?

A three minute video...



or if you prefer... Inflation Theory, the First Law of Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics tells us that it is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws which describes the evolution of the universe describes the creation of the universe which means the laws of nature were in place before the creation of space and time.

 

[ding]

Yes, I know Arnold Toynbee, Ding.

I was just testing you.

Did you misspell teasing?

No.

Teasing would be misconstrued as flirting by some backward thinking people.

I would be in big trouble if that were the case.

 

[Mindful]

But if there was a beginning, how does your science and second laws of whatevers explain what happened before that beginning?

A three minute video...



or if you prefer... Inflation Theory, the First Law of Thermodynamics and quantum mechanics tells us that it is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws which describes the evolution of the universe describes the creation of the universe which means the laws of nature were in place before the creation of space and time.

That's all very well, Ding.

It depends on your favourite scientist of the day.

 

[ding]

He seems pretty intelligent, I just havent discovered why he doesnt proclaim his own actual beliefs. You, youre just a whiny twat on the internet with poor reasoning skills.

Whats left to say today? He and I will converse again.

I really don't understand how you or anyone would think that I haven't already openly stated by beliefs especially after you try to discredit them...Am I speaking in a strange language that you don't understand? Having trouble retaining information?

Are you looking for a creed? A manifesto?

lol.. "heads I win tails you lose?"

Find another sucker.

Im not sure why you couldnt answer a direct question with a direct answer, that's all....but it doesnt really matter to me, so. Do you, playboy.

Hey, I was just trying to make a distinction between the creation story in genesis what children were expected to know and what no one can possible know.

I do not like to conflate the two entirely different subjects. One thing has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the other.

So when was the universe created? How was the universe created? Where was God when the universe was created? Did God create the universe? Here's your big opportunity to explain it all.

When was the universe created? It wasn't.

How was it created? It wasn't.

Did God create the universe? No. The universe does not exist.

God created heaven and earth.


Where was God? God was exactly where he is.

That's the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Please tell me more. If you can, but I somehow think you can't.

 

[Mindful]

Yes, I know Arnold Toynbee, Ding.

I was just testing you.

Did you misspell teasing?

No.

Teasing would be misconstrued as flirting by some backward thinking people.

I would be in big trouble if that were the case.

With whom?

The geniuses of USMB?

 

[ding]

He seems pretty intelligent, I just havent discovered why he doesnt proclaim his own actual beliefs. You, youre just a whiny twat on the internet with poor reasoning skills.

Whats left to say today? He and I will converse again.

I really don't understand how you or anyone would think that I haven't already openly stated by beliefs especially after you try to discredit them...Am I speaking in a strange language that you don't understand? Having trouble retaining information?

Are you looking for a creed? A manifesto?

lol.. "heads I win tails you lose?"

Find another sucker.

Im not sure why you couldnt answer a direct question with a direct answer, that's all....but it doesnt really matter to me, so. Do you, playboy.

Hey, I was just trying to make a distinction between the creation story in genesis what children were expected to know and what no one can possible know.

I do not like to conflate the two entirely different subjects. One thing has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the other.

So when was the universe created? How was the universe created? Where was God when the universe was created? Did God create the universe? Here's your big opportunity to explain it all.

When was the universe created? It wasn't.

How was it created? It wasn't.

Did God create the universe? No. The universe does not exist.

God created heaven and earth.


Where was God? God was exactly where he is.

So why does red shift which shows galaxies moving away from each other? Why is there cosmic background radiation which shows the remnant of the big bang? Why do Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations predict the universe had a beginning?

 

[ding]

Yes, I know Arnold Toynbee, Ding.

I was just testing you.

Did you misspell teasing?

No.

Teasing would be misconstrued as flirting by some backward thinking people.

I would be in big trouble if that were the case.

With whom?

The geniuses of USMB?

My wife and my friends. My friends tease each other a lot. And I mean a lot.

 

[hobelim]

When did the universe begin? How did the universe begin? Where was God before the universe began.

Please don't tell me the universe has always existed because then I will have to bitch slap you with science.

How do you know it hasn't always existed? Are you going to bitch slap me too, for the impertinence of daring to question you?

The short answer? The second law of thermodynamics.

That was a great question BTW.

Tells me nothing.

Our part animal, part lizard brains are programmed for beginnings and endings. Even I can't get my head round 'always was, always is, and will be'. But if there was a beginning, how does your science and second laws of whatevers explain what happened before that beginning?

Ok, long answer....

Red shift, cosmic background radiation, Friedmann's solutions to Einstein's field equations and the Second Law of Thermodynamics tells us that space and time did have a beginning. If the universe is expanding then it must have a beginning. If you follow it backwards in time, then any object must come to a boundary of space time. You cannot continue that history indefinitely. This is still true even if a universe has periods of contraction. It still has to have a beginning if expansion over weights the contraction. Physicists have been uncomfortable with the idea of a beginning since the work of Friedman which showed that the solutions of Einstein's equation showed that the universe had a beginning. The problem with a cyclical universe is with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. For every matter to energy or energy to matter exchange there is a loss of usable energy. So while the total energy of the universe does not decrease, the usable energy of the universe does decrease. If it is a periodic or cyclical universe then the entropy will increase with each cycle. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics is a fundamental law of nature which tells us that entropy can only increase or stay the same. Entropy can never decrease. Which means that in a finite amount of time, a finite system will reach a maximum state of disorder which is called thermal equilibrium and then it will stay in that state. A cyclical universe cannot avoid this problem. Since we do not see thermal equilibrium (good thing too because there would be no life) we know that the universe did have a beginning.

Where do morals and atheists come into this?

I don't can't speak for atheists but I think that Ding, a genuine believer, has proven beyond any doubt that he can't be moral if honesty is required.


At least I'm convinced.