Christian friends of gays and lesbians

[eagleseven]

No means No.

Would you do a male octopus? Because a tentacle is a tentacle, after all.

 

[bodecea]

There's really no compelling reason not to allow gay couples to marry.

I agree with you.

That being said, the thread was started sounding like it was going to be a discussion of whether or not Christians have gay friends or Christians hate gay people. The thread turned out not to be at all what the title implies. What I expect will happen when gay marriage is legal, and I believe it will be, is that a good portion of the gay community will still resent Christians and view them as an enemy. This issue is a lose-lose, and no matter what the turn-out of the gay marriage issue, the resentment will still be there. It really doesn't matter to me personally, because I have no beef with either side, but this will be an ongoing point of contention imo.

I disagree with you. Christians are not the enemy. Bigotry is.

This.

 

[Smartt33]

This thread started out dead.

God does not hate gays. Christians (not meaning all of them, but in general) don't hate gays.

The Bible says that gay sex is sin, just like outside of marriage heterosexual sex is sin.

That statement is not at all bigotted, or hateful. It is what the Bible says, and what Christians believe.

I personally don't believe the story of the OP. I have lived on this earth for a good while now, and it is not as common as the OP says to have that many gay friends if you are a straight. It is not that common to even knoe that many gays (the Op seems to indicate that a large number of his/her peers are gay).

Should Christians befriend gays, yes, just like any other person. Do they have to approve of gay sex, no. Can they believe that the Bible is correct, and still have gay friends, yes. Can they have an active gay lifestyle and be a Christian? Not if they are in God's will.

There are many gay Christians, but they have usually chosen to not have gay sex relationships. That is what God calls for.

I have known a few gays over the years, and have not rejected any of them. However, when the issue comes up, I don't stray from telling them how I feel about the Bible's words.

If gay marriage is rightfully denied because it is a sin then all hetero marriages should be banned as well. Why? If the only valid marriage is one free of sin then no marriage on earth should be recognized since (according to mainstream Christian theology) we are all sinners.

Next!

Gay marriage is not denied because gay marriage is a sin. Gay marriage promotes sin and gives gays the belief that gay sex is OK just because a society says so. I know the laws can alow for gay marriage, and I would really not be personally effected by that at all. However, when that law happens, it makes gay marriage, thus gay sex something that is approved and condoned by the society. That would be a sin by the society, and would numb the next generations to the effects of the sin of gay sex.

How is heterosexual marriage sin?

The only valid marriage is not connected to if it is sin or not. It is connected to who is getting married. Marriage in the Bible is valid only when it is one man and one woman. There are a few other things that can make a marriage invalid as well, such as the person is currently married, when it is a forced marriage, when the people don't allow God to be in it. Of course these are Biblical reasons not legal ones.

 

[Hister]

This thread started out dead.

God does not hate gays. Christians (not meaning all of them, but in general) don't hate gays.

The Bible says that gay sex is sin, just like outside of marriage heterosexual sex is sin.

That statement is not at all bigotted, or hateful. It is what the Bible says, and what Christians believe.

I personally don't believe the story of the OP. I have lived on this earth for a good while now, and it is not as common as the OP says to have that many gay friends if you are a straight. It is not that common to even knoe that many gays (the Op seems to indicate that a large number of his/her peers are gay).

Should Christians befriend gays, yes, just like any other person. Do they have to approve of gay sex, no. Can they believe that the Bible is correct, and still have gay friends, yes. Can they have an active gay lifestyle and be a Christian? Not if they are in God's will.

There are many gay Christians, but they have usually chosen to not have gay sex relationships. That is what God calls for.

I have known a few gays over the years, and have not rejected any of them. However, when the issue comes up, I don't stray from telling them how I feel about the Bible's words.

If gay marriage is rightfully denied because it is a sin then all hetero marriages should be banned as well. Why? If the only valid marriage is one free of sin then no marriage on earth should be recognized since (according to mainstream Christian theology) we are all sinners.

Next!

Gay marriage is not denied because gay marriage is a sin. Gay marriage promotes sin and gives gays the belief that gay sex is OK just because a society says so. I know the laws can alow for gay marriage, and I would really not be personally effected by that at all. However, when that law happens, it makes gay marriage, thus gay sex something that is approved and condoned by the society. That would be a sin by the society, and would numb the next generations to the effects of the sin of gay sex.

How is heterosexual marriage sin?

The only valid marriage is not connected to if it is sin or not. It is connected to who is getting married. Marriage in the Bible is valid only when it is one man and one woman. There are a few other things that can make a marriage invalid as well, such as the person is currently married, when it is a forced marriage, when the people don't allow God to be in it. Of course these are Biblical reasons not legal ones.

Smartt, you're a homo hating douche. The US should just make all their laws on equality apply everywhere in the US, even to churches. It's like condoning having a church that hates junglebunnies, would that even be allowed?

 

[Samson]

No means No.

.. a tentacle is a tentacle, after all.

Really?

Post a pic.

 

[CurveLight]

This thread started out dead.

God does not hate gays. Christians (not meaning all of them, but in general) don't hate gays.

The Bible says that gay sex is sin, just like outside of marriage heterosexual sex is sin.

That statement is not at all bigotted, or hateful. It is what the Bible says, and what Christians believe.

I personally don't believe the story of the OP. I have lived on this earth for a good while now, and it is not as common as the OP says to have that many gay friends if you are a straight. It is not that common to even knoe that many gays (the Op seems to indicate that a large number of his/her peers are gay).

Should Christians befriend gays, yes, just like any other person. Do they have to approve of gay sex, no. Can they believe that the Bible is correct, and still have gay friends, yes. Can they have an active gay lifestyle and be a Christian? Not if they are in God's will.

There are many gay Christians, but they have usually chosen to not have gay sex relationships. That is what God calls for.

I have known a few gays over the years, and have not rejected any of them. However, when the issue comes up, I don't stray from telling them how I feel about the Bible's words.

If gay marriage is rightfully denied because it is a sin then all hetero marriages should be banned as well. Why? If the only valid marriage is one free of sin then no marriage on earth should be recognized since (according to mainstream Christian theology) we are all sinners.

Next!

Gay marriage is not denied because gay marriage is a sin. Gay marriage promotes sin and gives gays the belief that gay sex is OK just because a society says so. I know the laws can alow for gay marriage, and I would really not be personally effected by that at all. However, when that law happens, it makes gay marriage, thus gay sex something that is approved and condoned by the society. That would be a sin by the society, and would numb the next generations to the effects of the sin of gay sex.

How is heterosexual marriage sin?

The only valid marriage is not connected to if it is sin or not. It is connected to who is getting married. Marriage in the Bible is valid only when it is one man and one woman. There are a few other things that can make a marriage invalid as well, such as the person is currently married, when it is a forced marriage, when the people don't allow God to be in it. Of course these are Biblical reasons not legal ones.

Your opposition is based on sexual activity which makes no sense because marriage is not based upon fucking sex. Your argument based on Biblical interpretations makes no sense because polygamy, incest-rape, and attempted prostitution all resulted in the offenders being rewarded and not punished. More importantly, you're the centerpiece of anti-Americanism because religion should never be the underwriter of legislation. Your claim homosexuality is a sin is a completely moot point. Why? It's a theological position based on consequence contrived in the realm of fantasy. What actual harm does homosexuality cause? None. It is in this light we see why even if it is a sin.......so what? If it is offensive it is only God that is offended and carries no causation justifying your Sinorometer.

 

[mal]

If gay marriage is rightfully denied because it is a sin then all hetero marriages should be banned as well. Why? If the only valid marriage is one free of sin then no marriage on earth should be recognized since (according to mainstream Christian theology) we are all sinners.

Next!

Gay marriage is not denied because gay marriage is a sin. Gay marriage promotes sin and gives gays the belief that gay sex is OK just because a society says so. I know the laws can alow for gay marriage, and I would really not be personally effected by that at all. However, when that law happens, it makes gay marriage, thus gay sex something that is approved and condoned by the society. That would be a sin by the society, and would numb the next generations to the effects of the sin of gay sex.

How is heterosexual marriage sin?

The only valid marriage is not connected to if it is sin or not. It is connected to who is getting married. Marriage in the Bible is valid only when it is one man and one woman. There are a few other things that can make a marriage invalid as well, such as the person is currently married, when it is a forced marriage, when the people don't allow God to be in it. Of course these are Biblical reasons not legal ones.

Your opposition is based on sexual activity which makes no sense because marriage is not based upon fucking sex. Your argument based on Biblical interpretations makes no sense because polygamy, incest-rape, and attempted prostitution all resulted in the offenders being rewarded and not punished. More importantly, you're the centerpiece of anti-Americanism because religion should never be the underwriter of legislation. Your claim homosexuality is a sin is a completely moot point. Why? It's a theological position based on consequence contrived in the realm of fantasy. What actual harm does homosexuality cause? None. It is in this light we see why even if it is a sin.......so what? If it is offensive it is only God that is offended and carries no causation justifying your Sinorometer.

Religion is Irrelevant...

Our Natural Design and Equipment is NOT.

On Deviancy of Choice does NOT have the Right to Redefine Marriage Exclusively in Law.

If Marriage isn't about Sex/Procreation and the Possibility of it, then let Siblings Marry...



peace...

 

[Hister]

If you're against gay marriage, you're likely not gay. So why even give a fuck what gays do?

 

[CurveLight]

Gay marriage is not denied because gay marriage is a sin. Gay marriage promotes sin and gives gays the belief that gay sex is OK just because a society says so. I know the laws can alow for gay marriage, and I would really not be personally effected by that at all. However, when that law happens, it makes gay marriage, thus gay sex something that is approved and condoned by the society. That would be a sin by the society, and would numb the next generations to the effects of the sin of gay sex.

How is heterosexual marriage sin?

The only valid marriage is not connected to if it is sin or not. It is connected to who is getting married. Marriage in the Bible is valid only when it is one man and one woman. There are a few other things that can make a marriage invalid as well, such as the person is currently married, when it is a forced marriage, when the people don't allow God to be in it. Of course these are Biblical reasons not legal ones.

Your opposition is based on sexual activity which makes no sense because marriage is not based upon fucking sex. Your argument based on Biblical interpretations makes no sense because polygamy, incest-rape, and attempted prostitution all resulted in the offenders being rewarded and not punished. More importantly, you're the centerpiece of anti-Americanism because religion should never be the underwriter of legislation. Your claim homosexuality is a sin is a completely moot point. Why? It's a theological position based on consequence contrived in the realm of fantasy. What actual harm does homosexuality cause? None. It is in this light we see why even if it is a sin.......so what? If it is offensive it is only God that is offended and carries no causation justifying your Sinorometer.

Religion is Irrelevant...

Our Natural Design and Equipment is NOT.

On Deviancy of Choice does NOT have the Right to Redefine Marriage Exclusively in Law.

If Marriage isn't about Sex/Procreation and the Possibility of it, then let Siblings Marry...



peace...

There has never been an exclusive definition of marriage in the US or the world so the claim of redefining marriage is a fallacy. Marriage is a very intimate and personal committment and one the government has no business interfering with on any level. However, if it is going involve itself the government needs to respect Equal Protection of the laws and afford the same rights to all married couples regardless of sex discrimination. As for your siblings distraction.......I say if two consenting adults want to get married then let them and make sure the government does not arbitrarily pick and choose who benefits. Apply the laws equally or not at all.

 

[CurveLight]

If you're against gay marriage, you're likely not gay. So why even give a fuck what gays do?

Controlling gender roles is a cultural compulsion for many Americans.

 

[bodecea]

If you're against gay marriage, you're likely not gay. So why even give a fuck what gays do?

Controlling gender roles is a cultural compulsion for many Americans.

Certainly seems that way, doesn't it?

 

[mal]

Your opposition is based on sexual activity which makes no sense because marriage is not based upon fucking sex. Your argument based on Biblical interpretations makes no sense because polygamy, incest-rape, and attempted prostitution all resulted in the offenders being rewarded and not punished. More importantly, you're the centerpiece of anti-Americanism because religion should never be the underwriter of legislation. Your claim homosexuality is a sin is a completely moot point. Why? It's a theological position based on consequence contrived in the realm of fantasy. What actual harm does homosexuality cause? None. It is in this light we see why even if it is a sin.......so what? If it is offensive it is only God that is offended and carries no causation justifying your Sinorometer.

Religion is Irrelevant...

Our Natural Design and Equipment is NOT.

On Deviancy of Choice does NOT have the Right to Redefine Marriage Exclusively in Law.

If Marriage isn't about Sex/Procreation and the Possibility of it, then let Siblings Marry...



peace...

There has never been an exclusive definition of marriage in the US or the world so the claim of redefining marriage is a fallacy. Marriage is a very intimate and personal committment and one the government has no business interfering with on any level. However, if it is going involve itself the government needs to respect Equal Protection of the laws and afford the same rights to all married couples regardless of sex discrimination. As for your siblings distraction.......I say if two consenting adults want to get married then let them and make sure the government does not arbitrarily pick and choose who benefits. Apply the laws equally or not at all.

Then you Support Siblings Marrying... At least you are Consistent.



peace...

 

[CurveLight]

Religion is Irrelevant...

Our Natural Design and Equipment is NOT.

On Deviancy of Choice does NOT have the Right to Redefine Marriage Exclusively in Law.

If Marriage isn't about Sex/Procreation and the Possibility of it, then let Siblings Marry...



peace...

There has never been an exclusive definition of marriage in the US or the world so the claim of redefining marriage is a fallacy. Marriage is a very intimate and personal committment and one the government has no business interfering with on any level. However, if it is going involve itself the government needs to respect Equal Protection of the laws and afford the same rights to all married couples regardless of sex discrimination. As for your siblings distraction.......I say if two consenting adults want to get married then let them and make sure the government does not arbitrarily pick and choose who benefits. Apply the laws equally or not at all.

Then you Support Siblings Marrying... At least you are Consistent.



peace...

My position is based on legal application and not the glass hammer of morality.

 

[CurveLight]

If you're against gay marriage, you're likely not gay. So why even give a fuck what gays do?

Controlling gender roles is a cultural compulsion for many Americans.

Certainly seems that way, doesn't it?

I was wrong when I said Christianity is the main driving force behind homophobia. Religion is only the tool because the actual motivation is maintaining a patriarchal structure. Marilyn Frye has a good piece on what she calls Announcing gender and its critical role in everyday life. We see it on here as well because people have often whined about my responses based not on the insulting terms themselves but more on the gender of the person I was flaming.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Religion is Irrelevant...

Our Natural Design and Equipment is NOT.

On Deviancy of Choice does NOT have the Right to Redefine Marriage Exclusively in Law.

If Marriage isn't about Sex/Procreation and the Possibility of it, then let Siblings Marry...



peace...

There has never been an exclusive definition of marriage in the US or the world so the claim of redefining marriage is a fallacy. Marriage is a very intimate and personal committment and one the government has no business interfering with on any level. However, if it is going involve itself the government needs to respect Equal Protection of the laws and afford the same rights to all married couples regardless of sex discrimination. As for your siblings distraction.......I say if two consenting adults want to get married then let them and make sure the government does not arbitrarily pick and choose who benefits. Apply the laws equally or not at all.

Then you Support Siblings Marrying... At least you are Consistent.



peace...

The thing the SSM activist keep missing is that they are discriminating themselves. Someone is always going to be excluded from marriage as long as the government has anything to do with it. Some states require a blood test in order to get a marriage license, something most people do not object to. Jehovah's Witnesses have a religious objection to providing blood, does this discriminate against those who refuse to give blood?

Incest laws in some states bar cousins from marrying, even if they are not related genetically. The logic behind this is supposedly about preventing inbreeding, but the truth is that it is entirely religious in nature. More discrimination.

You mentioned brothers and sisters marrying, something that is illegal almost everywhere. This applies even if they are step siblings. More discrimination.

Marriage laws are inherently discriminatory. Currently they discriminate on the basis of age, gender, social and religious taboos, and sheer idiocy. If we truly want our government not to discriminate the only possible way to eliminate it is to get it out of the business of marriage entirely.

 

[Immanuel]

I'm going to come to bodecea's aid here because she is only openly lesbian poster I know of at USMB.

You have'nt walked in her shoes. You have no idea what crap she's had to put up with.

Maybe you could extend some of that Christian love and acceptance to people who have been hurt by Christian anti-gay activists. You never know who's been the victim of a hate crime.

Just a thought.

I have tried before, but every time I do, I get slapped in the face by her.

I have tried to come up with a workable solution to the issue. I have not once stated that she should not be able to be married in a church that will marry her. Unfortunately, she is not happy with that. It seems she believes that every church must submit to accepting gay marriage. That may come eventually, but it is not going to happen by force.

Immie

Bodecea is interested in civil marriage equality. that's what I read in her posts. What are the churches doing messing around with civil law? They can choose to marry whoever they like.

bodecea can speak for herself but I see no evidence that she believes every church must submit to accepting gay marriage.

In case you didn't know it, Marriage has been an institution of the Church since before the western hemisphere was even discovered.

As I have stated, because America sees the need, and rightly so, of keeping the church and state separate, the state should not have a damned thing to do with the religious Rite of marriage.

It is for that reason that the government should change its view of what they now call contractual marriage, to civil unions. Doing so in no way inhibits a church from choosing to marry any couple.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

I'm going to come to bodecea's aid here because she is only openly lesbian poster I know of at USMB.

You have'nt walked in her shoes. You have no idea what crap she's had to put up with.

Maybe you could extend some of that Christian love and acceptance to people who have been hurt by Christian anti-gay activists. You never know who's been the victim of a hate crime.

Just a thought.

I have tried before, but every time I do, I get slapped in the face by her.

I have tried to come up with a workable solution to the issue. I have not once stated that she should not be able to be married in a church that will marry her. Unfortunately, she is not happy with that. It seems she believes that every church must submit to accepting gay marriage. That may come eventually, but it is not going to happen by force.

Immie

Well now...that is simply a lie...and we all know what the 10 commandments say about that.

It seem to me that you are the liar in this case.

How many dozens of times have you jumped all over me when I have suggested the idea of civil unions?

Are you claiming that I am wrong when I state that it seems you believe that every church must submit? You have attacked me personally for stating that I believe churches should be free to choose whether or not to marry homosexual couples. I do not see how I can be wrong in that case.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

Simply not true....once you admit that, we can speak honestly on the issue.

You are full of shit. Just because someone does not support gay marriage, does not mean they hate gay people. I believe the state should treat both gay and straight equally. I support your right to get married in any church that will marry you. In the mean time, the state should sanction civil unions for all and stay out of the religious field.

You seem to hate everyone that does not give in to you. I feel so sorry for you. Once you admit that the state has no business being involved in religious rites, we can have an honest discussion. Until then, your hatred of those who will not bow down to your cause will always be in the way.

You talk of Christians hating you? You should look in the damned mirror.

Immie

You said Marriage EQUALITY...I am a law-abiding, tax-paying citizen. You are nothing but a Segregationist....just like the Segregationists of old....to sit there and expect us to believe your CRAP about not hating us when we have done NOTHING to you yet you want the STATE to without equal rights from us....sorry, but I'm not the idiot you want me to be.

BTW...there has been an effort to start a Proposition here in CA to get the word "Marriage" removed from all legal documentation and make all civil marriages into civil unions....guess who, when faced with something like that REALLY happening, have started SQUAWKING? You guessed it, the churches.

A segregationist? Now that is a damned lie.

I have stated repeated for years, that I believe the government should license all "marriages" both gay and straight as civil unions and you know full well that is the case.

Makes you the liar here.

What equal rites have I denied to you? None! Not a damned one!

Immie

 

[DiveCon]

You are full of shit. Just because someone does not support gay marriage, does not mean they hate gay people. I believe the state should treat both gay and straight equally. I support your right to get married in any church that will marry you. In the mean time, the state should sanction civil unions for all and stay out of the religious field.

You seem to hate everyone that does not give in to you. I feel so sorry for you. Once you admit that the state has no business being involved in religious rites, we can have an honest discussion. Until then, your hatred of those who will not bow down to your cause will always be in the way.

You talk of Christians hating you? You should look in the damned mirror.

Immie

You said Marriage EQUALITY...I am a law-abiding, tax-paying citizen. You are nothing but a Segregationist....just like the Segregationists of old....to sit there and expect us to believe your CRAP about not hating us when we have done NOTHING to you yet you want the STATE to without equal rights from us....sorry, but I'm not the idiot you want me to be.

BTW...there has been an effort to start a Proposition here in CA to get the word "Marriage" removed from all legal documentation and make all civil marriages into civil unions....guess who, when faced with something like that REALLY happening, have started SQUAWKING? You guessed it, the churches.

A segregationist? Now that is a damned lie.

I have stated repeated for years, that I believe the government should license all "marriages" both gay and straight as civil unions and you know full well that is the case.

Makes you the liar here.

What equal rites have I denied to you? None! Not a damned one!

Immie

yes, you have as long as i have known you
something we are both in agreement on

 

[Immanuel]

Simply not true....once you admit that, we can speak honestly on the issue.

You are full of shit. Just because someone does not support gay marriage, does not mean they hate gay people. I believe the state should treat both gay and straight equally. I support your right to get married in any church that will marry you. In the mean time, the state should sanction civil unions for all and stay out of the religious field.

You seem to hate everyone that does not give in to you. I feel so sorry for you. Once you admit that the state has no business being involved in religious rites, we can have an honest discussion. Until then, your hatred of those who will not bow down to your cause will always be in the way.

You talk of Christians hating you? You should look in the damned mirror.

Immie

Don't forget about the Christian gays who oppose same sex marriage. Those I know think the government has no place authorizing what they claim is a religious tenet of faith. "We should all have civil unions" is the general opinion.

But spewing hate with a different political purpose seems to be the preferred tactic.

I don't understand what you are trying to say here.

I have come up with what I think is a fair and equitable solution to the very real problem that the homosexual community faces. That would be "civil unions" as the legal contract between any couple and allowing any church the ability to decide whether or not it will marry a couple. Marriage under the umbrella of the church would offer no legal advantages whatsoever. If a couple wants the legal benefits of a relationship, they would have to be under a civil union.

For the life of me, I cannot see why that is not a very good solution to the problem, except some people like bod do not seem to want that.

Immie