Did Israel Just Lose the Battle for Damascus?

[RoccoR]

toastman, Roudy, et al,

Nearly everyone has an agenda they promote. PF Tinmore and SherriMunnerlyn have one (pro-Palestinian) and there are others that are pro-Israeli. Once you add in the Syrian issue, the debate become even more complicated. Inserting the Iranians and Hezbollah into the equation, and it become extremely complex. With that come the Sunni-Shi'ite confrontation that adds another flammable mixture to the fire.

And, we haven't even begun to talk about the Quartet, the EU, and the Regional coalitions that have some finger in the pie.

Since 2012 the US has tried to help the Syrian people. But after Libya, they are very hesitant. So this president is going to stand by while the Syrian leader commits genocide on his own people. And you guys are Assad's biggest supporters because he has been enemies with Israel.

That's what it comes down to in a nutshell. People like you don't give a shit about Syrians or Palestinians, or anybody. Your hatred of Jews and Israel is the prime motivating factor.

(COMMENT)

A number of political entities have wanted to help the situation in Syria. You and "JROC" are correct, in that Syria is a client state of Russia; but, it also has a relationship of a similar sort with Iran. And Iran has a client non-state actor relationship to Hezbollah. No matter which side and external observer picks, there are elements involved that taint the choice.

Example of the Trap​

• If the US were to side with the Free Syrian Army (Rebel Forces), then by extension, there is a connection to al-Qaeda and Hamas; which have sided with the Rebels.
  
• If the US were to side with the Assad Regime (Government Forces), then by extension, they have established a connection with the Iranians (IRGC-QF), and Hezbollah.

In insurgencies gone-bye, this wouldn't make a difference. But in today's environment, the dilemma is magnified by a factor of ten.

This does not take into account that the Syrian debacle is truly an extension of the Arab Spring, a revolutionary wave of demonstrations, protests, and conflict to effect regime change by domestic edict (not external influences).

The external observers are very concerned that if they get involved in any way, the outcome will be such that the emerging new government will bite the hand that helped them. Caution is the order of the day.

Sherri didn't shed a tear for any of the 80 000 slaughtered civilians in Syria. But the moment Israel bombed the so called 'research center' , she was all over the story and condemned Israel for killing the soldiers in the center.
Pro - Palestinian hypocrisy at its best !

(COMMENT)

The hard core pro-Palestinian movement is not really about being pro-Palestinian, as it is being anti-Israel. It is not about a clear and firm assessment about what is being done right and what is being done wrong. It is about the wrong that Israel does. In that respect, you have to understand that there is no ground on which a debate can be held in any informative way. Someone will be on the defensive and someone will be on the offensive. It is not a public question in an assembly or discussion forum, involving opposing viewpoints expressed through processes of critical thinking.

In this setting, the opposition will not objectively look at any action the opponent makes as a positive effort. So anything the Israeli does is a negative and based on some anti-Palestinian agenda.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

et al,

I had not realized.

Remind me... how many innocent Syrians have been killed by their innocent Syrian brothers? I've lost count.

And with US supplied weapons.

Hmmm.

(QUESTION)

I had NOT heard that the US was supplying weapons.

Where did you hear that?

Most Respectfully,
R

I heard that from several different sources.

I wonder why you have been left out of the loop.

 

[toastman]

I thought they were supplying them with non military aid. Tinmore, care to show us the article about the U.S providing the FSA with weapons ??

 

[ForeverYoung436]

et al,

I had not realized.

And with US supplied weapons.

Hmmm.

(QUESTION)

I had NOT heard that the US was supplying weapons.

Where did you hear that?

Most Respectfully,
R

I heard that from several different sources.

I wonder why you have been left out of the loop.

You should just stick with your anti-Israel bias. You are out of your depth here.

 

[Roudy]

et al,

I had not realized.

And with US supplied weapons.

Hmmm.

(QUESTION)

I had NOT heard that the US was supplying weapons.

Where did you hear that?

Most Respectfully,
R

I heard that from several different sources.

I wonder why you have been left out of the loop.

Really? Perhaps those sources are those voices in your head? Either that or provide a link that the USA has been supplying Syria with weapons. And I'm not talking about recently as in the last year or so since the uprising started and the entire world is watching in horror at what Assad is doing to his own people. I'm talking historically.

 

[toastman]

I'm still waiting for the link

 

[Roudy]

toastman, Roudy, et al,

Nearly everyone has an agenda they promote. PF Tinmore and SherriMunnerlyn have one (pro-Palestinian) and there are others that are pro-Israeli. Once you add in the Syrian issue, the debate become even more complicated. Inserting the Iranians and Hezbollah into the equation, and it become extremely complex. With that come the Sunni-Shi'ite confrontation that adds another flammable mixture to the fire.

And, we haven't even begun to talk about the Quartet, the EU, and the Regional coalitions that have some finger in the pie.

Since 2012 the US has tried to help the Syrian people. But after Libya, they are very hesitant. So this president is going to stand by while the Syrian leader commits genocide on his own people. And you guys are Assad's biggest supporters because he has been enemies with Israel.

That's what it comes down to in a nutshell. People like you don't give a shit about Syrians or Palestinians, or anybody. Your hatred of Jews and Israel is the prime motivating factor.

(COMMENT)

A number of political entities have wanted to help the situation in Syria. You and "JROC" are correct, in that Syria is a client state of Russia; but, it also has a relationship of a similar sort with Iran. And Iran has a client non-state actor relationship to Hezbollah. No matter which side and external observer picks, there are elements involved that taint the choice.

Example of the Trap​

• If the US were to side with the Free Syrian Army (Rebel Forces), then by extension, there is a connection to al-Qaeda and Hamas; which have sided with the Rebels.
  
• If the US were to side with the Assad Regime (Government Forces), then by extension, they have established a connection with the Iranians (IRGC-QF), and Hezbollah.

In insurgencies gone-bye, this wouldn't make a difference. But in today's environment, the dilemma is magnified by a factor of ten.

This does not take into account that the Syrian debacle is truly an extension of the Arab Spring, a revolutionary wave of demonstrations, protests, and conflict to effect regime change by domestic edict (not external influences).

The external observers are very concerned that if they get involved in any way, the outcome will be such that the emerging new government will bite the hand that helped them. Caution is the order of the day.

Sherri didn't shed a tear for any of the 80 000 slaughtered civilians in Syria. But the moment Israel bombed the so called 'research center' , she was all over the story and condemned Israel for killing the soldiers in the center.
Pro - Palestinian hypocrisy at its best !

(COMMENT)

The hard core pro-Palestinian movement is not really about being pro-Palestinian, as it is being anti-Israel. It is not about a clear and firm assessment about what is being done right and what is being done wrong. It is about the wrong that Israel does. In that respect, you have to understand that there is no ground on which a debate can be held in any informative way. Someone will be on the defensive and someone will be on the offensive. It is not a public question in an assembly or discussion forum, involving opposing viewpoints expressed through processes of critical thinking.

In this setting, the opposition will not objectively look at any action the opponent makes as a positive effort. So anything the Israeli does is a negative and based on some anti-Palestinian agenda.

Most Respectfully,
R

Exactly right. And most of the pro Palestinians are just outright Jew haters for one reason or another. Although I'm not sure if I want Assad removed, who knows what Islamic crap will come that will not be ten times worse? Nobody can guarantee that, especially in that neck of the woods, where Islamist takeovers are spreading like cancer. So we (as in the USA, Israel, and the West in general) are stuck with the evil that we know verses the evil that we don't know.

 

[georgephillip]

You really should clarify what you mean by "the US providing the FSA with weapons" first, Toast.
The US began to officially supply weapons to fundamentalist Islamists during the Soviet invasion and occupation of Afghanistan four decades ago. Unofficially, the CIA has been funneling arms and training to al-Qa'ida and its ilk ever since the Russians ended their occupation in '89. If you want to pursue this, let's start by finding agreement on sources; I'm thinking Stratfor via Wikileaks might be useful.

 

[toastman]

You really should clarify what you mean by "the US providing the FSA with weapons" first, Toast.
The US began to officially supply weapons to fundamentalist Islamists during the Soviet invasion and occupation of Afghanistan four decades ago. Unofficially, the CIA has been funneling arms and training to al-Qa'ida and its ilk ever since the Russians ended their occupation in '89. If you want to pursue this, let's start by finding agreement on sources; I'm thinking Stratfor via Wikileaks might be useful.

Huh? Tinmore claimed the U.S was supporting the FSA rebels with weapons, but he didn't provide a link. The links I read said they were supporting them with NON MILITARY AID

 

[georgephillip]

You really should clarify what you mean by "the US providing the FSA with weapons" first, Toast.
The US began to officially supply weapons to fundamentalist Islamists during the Soviet invasion and occupation of Afghanistan four decades ago. Unofficially, the CIA has been funneling arms and training to al-Qa'ida and its ilk ever since the Russians ended their occupation in '89. If you want to pursue this, let's start by finding agreement on sources; I'm thinking Stratfor via Wikileaks might be useful.

Huh? Tinmore claimed the U.S was supporting the FSA rebels with weapons, but he didn't provide a link. The links I read said they were supporting them with NON MILITARY AID

Do you find it credible the CIA is supplying al'Qa'ida type insurgents in Syria in the same way they did in Libya? What source would you accept as authentic?

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

We never find the full truth about secret US operations until years later.

 

[georgephillip]

We never find the full truth about secret US operations until years later.

Funds for some of the unofficial CIA arms and training missions may well come directly from the profits of illegal drug sales, which probably explains the Long War in Afghanistan. (and the coming blood-bath in Mexico)

 

[P F Tinmore]

You really should clarify what you mean by "the US providing the FSA with weapons" first, Toast.
The US began to officially supply weapons to fundamentalist Islamists during the Soviet invasion and occupation of Afghanistan four decades ago. Unofficially, the CIA has been funneling arms and training to al-Qa'ida and its ilk ever since the Russians ended their occupation in '89. If you want to pursue this, let's start by finding agreement on sources; I'm thinking Stratfor via Wikileaks might be useful.

Huh? Tinmore claimed the U.S was supporting the FSA rebels with weapons, but he didn't provide a link. The links I read said they were supporting them with NON MILITARY AID

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJRs18A7qnE]USA is the main Arms Supplier for the Regime Change Operation in Syria (Sibel Edmonds, dec 16, 2011) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[MHunterB]

Well, I participated in discussions years ago where we discussed US Special Ops in Syria trying to stir up a Civil War there. I guess the US was successful in her endeavors there.

I note that when unable to access a particular webstain for several hours, this poster's first conjecture as to the source of the difficulty was 'censorship by cyber-attack'. How droll.

It's well-documented that those who ascribe situations to 'conspiracies' will apply that model to more and more situations - whether appropriate or not. The above gives such appearance: the underlying hatred for "US aggression", the expressed contempt for people in the military - so the "natural" conclusion is yet another vilification of ALLEGED PURPROTED 'government' actions.

Note that at no time is anything approaching empirical evidence even invoked: it's strictly conjecture. But in another few posts, this malignant 'idea' is all too likely to take root because it fits the overall 'True Believer' attitude that the US Government is always wrong......

 

[georgephillip]

You people are nuts the Russians and Iranians supply weapons that kill all those people, and at this point Israel would rather see Assad stay i would guess. You damn Israel Jew haters are a pathetic joke

While you Israel Jew first-ers never quite grasp the fact that your Jewish state would not even exist today without billion$ of US taxpayer dollars, right? Israel was created as a Jewish state in the heart of Arab oil for the express purpose killing Arabs and stealing their resources. The rest of the world is catching on fast, and when critical mass is achieved, the Jewish state will vanish from the page of time.

 

[toastman]

You people are nuts the Russians and Iranians supply weapons that kill all those people, and at this point Israel would rather see Assad stay i would guess. You damn Israel Jew haters are a pathetic joke

While you Israel Jew first-ers never quite grasp the fact that your Jewish state would not even exist today without billion$ of US taxpayer dollars, right? Israel was created as a Jewish state in the heart of Arab oil for the express purpose killing Arabs and stealing their resources. The rest of the world is catching on fast, and when critical mass is achieved, the Jewish state will vanish from the page of time.

That's a lovely conspiracy theory

 

[MHunterB]

Bryant Jordan*writes for*Military.com, March 9, 2012, that according to a leaked Stratfor memo published by WikiLeaks,*U.S. Special Operation Forces reportedly have been in Syria since Decembertraining groups to conduct guerrilla attacks and assassinations to bring down Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. Stratfor is a Texas-based private intelligence-gathering company.But Pentagon spokesman Lt. Col. James Gregory said he could not comment on the memo’s authenticity, and that “due to the method” in which the memo was uncovered (by Wikileaks), it “seems to be pure conjecture.” He also said that DoD does not provide information on Special Operations deployments.The claim of American Spec Ops Forces operating in Syria is*made in an internal email dated Dec. 7, 2011, from an official at Stratfor. The writer — whose email reportedly belongs to the company’s director of analysis, Reva Bhalla — recounts a Pentagon meeting where officials “said without saying that SOF teams (presumably from US, UK, France, Jordan, Turkey) are already on the ground focused on recce [reconnaissance] missions and training opposition forces.” The idea ‘hypothetically’ is to commit guerrilla attacks, assassination campaigns, try to break the back of the Alawite forces, elicit collapse from within.* (Alawite is a minority branch of Islam to which the Assad family belongs.) US Special Ops are already in Syria | Fellowship of the Minds

Fascinating - but not exactly 'evidence'. It bears a certain resemblance to this "report" from the same source : US Army has a Field Manual on Civilian Internment | Fellowship of the Minds

I'll leave it to RoccoR why the subject 'manual' exists: I believe he will be able to put the information in the 'report' into *informed* context.

 

[Roudy]

You really should clarify what you mean by "the US providing the FSA with weapons" first, Toast.
The US began to officially supply weapons to fundamentalist Islamists during the Soviet invasion and occupation of Afghanistan four decades ago. Unofficially, the CIA has been funneling arms and training to al-Qa'ida and its ilk ever since the Russians ended their occupation in '89. If you want to pursue this, let's start by finding agreement on sources; I'm thinking Stratfor via Wikileaks might be useful.

Huh? Tinmore claimed the U.S was supporting the FSA rebels with weapons, but he didn't provide a link. The links I read said they were supporting them with NON MILITARY AID

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJRs18A7qnE]USA is the main Arms Supplier for the Regime Change Operation in Syria (Sibel Edmonds, dec 16, 2011) - YouTube[/ame]

Do you have anything better than Russian propaganda crap news? Of course the US and Europeans are training and helping the rebels, and neighboring Arabs are arming the rebels as well. This is all after the Syrian dictator decided to commit genocide upon his people. Keep up.

 

[MHunterB]

We never find the full truth about secret US operations until years later.

A statement which is actually true. MANY years late.

 

[Roudy]

You people are nuts the Russians and Iranians supply weapons that kill all those people, and at this point Israel would rather see Assad stay i would guess. You damn Israel Jew haters are a pathetic joke

While you Israel Jew first-ers never quite grasp the fact that your Jewish state would not even exist today without billion$ of US taxpayer dollars, right? Israel was created as a Jewish state in the heart of Arab oil for the express purpose killing Arabs and stealing their resources. The rest of the world is catching on fast, and when critical mass is achieved, the Jewish state will vanish from the page of time.

More mental masturbation. Israel was established in the ancient ancestral land of the Jews. There was no such thing as a Palestinian Arab nation, the land was under British control and before that for 700 years part if the Turkish Ottoman Empire.