Do You Think The Fast & Furious Scandal Is Worse Than Watergate Scandal?

[Vast LWC]

EP. That's ALL that you need worry about. Obama and Holder are hiding.

Keep on repeating that T, maybe one day even you'll believe it.

 

[Foxfyre]

Yep. EP to protect information of which he had adamently claimed he knew nothing about.

But according to Vast LWC, the only culprits in this entire thing are members of the GOP who are demanding to exercise their constituionally authorized responsibility of Congressional oversight.

They have already exercised said responsibility. And found N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

They then used the media to turn their "responsibility" into a political circus, using implication and outright lies to fill in blanks that don't even exist.

And now they're all butt-hurt when the administration says "Enough".

They have NOT been furnished ANY of the subpoenaed documents that they have requested re the Brian Terry incident. Why is that? Sure Congress has been given a whole bunch of stuff they didn't ask for and a whole lot of stuff that was immaterial to the questions they want answers for.

Why are YOU so butt hurt that Congress is exercising its constitutionally mandated function of oversight? Why are YOU so certain that Holder and the President should not release the requested documents? Why are you defending Holder's refusal to do so and the President's enacting EP for something he said he knew nothing about?

Is it so terrifying to you that your annointed ones, your heroes might actually have something to hide? Would you be so generous in them hiding it if it was the Bush administration?

Can you honestly say you would be defending George Bush and Alberto Gonzales if they had refused to turn over specific documents that Congress demanded re the death of a border patrol agent?

 

[The T]

Yep. EP to protect information of which he had adamently claimed he knew nothing about.

But according to Vast LWC, the only culprits in this entire thing are members of the GOP who are demanding to exercise their constituionally authorized responsibility of Congressional oversight.

They have already exercised said responsibility. And found N-O-T-H-I-N-G.

They then used the media to turn their "responsibility" into a political circus, using implication and outright lies to fill in blanks that don't even exist.

And now they're all butt-hurt when the administration says "Enough".

They have NOT been furnished ANY of the subpoenaed documents that they have requested re the Brian Terry incident. Why is that? Sure Congress has been given a whole bunch of stuff they didn't ask for and a whole lot of stuff that was immaterial to the questions they want answers for.

Why are YOU so butt hurt that Congress is exercising its constitutionally mandated function of oversight? Why are YOU so certain that Holder and the President should not release the requested documents? Why are you defending Holder's refusal to do so and the President's enacting EP for something he said he knew nothing about?

Is it so terrifying to you that your annointed ones, your heroes might actually have something to hide? Would you be so generous in them hiding it if it was the Bush administration?

Can you honestly say you would be defending George Bush and Alberto Gonzales if they had refused to turn over specific documents that Congress demanded re the death of a border patrol agent?

Reasoning with partisans goes only so far in my world. Yours is fortunately more tolerant than mine.

Good on ya.

 

[idb]

I suggest you read this The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features
Fast & Furious did not happen as alleged.
Guns were not allowed to 'walk'.
It's a fucking scandal!

Republican lies.
Democrat politics.
ATF agents thrown to the wolves.

A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. How the world came to believe just the opposite is a tale of rivalry, murder, and political bloodlust.

Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

 

[The T]

EP. That's ALL that you need worry about. Obama and Holder are hiding.

Keep on repeating that T, maybe one day even you'll believe it.

But I do after reading Issa's leter to Obama.

perhaps you have heard about it? And even if you have? So what?

I repost it.

Either You Were Involved in ‘Fast & Furious’ or You Are Asserting a Presidential Power That You Know to be Unjustified: Rep. Issa’s Scathing Letter to President Obama

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I suggest you read this The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features
Fast & Furious did not happen as alleged.
Guns were not allowed to 'walk'.
It's a fucking scandal!

Republican lies.
Democrat politics.
ATF agents thrown to the wolves.

A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. How the world came to believe just the opposite is a tale of rivalry, murder, and political bloodlust.

Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

There is too much information out there other than that which states your source is full of shit.

 

[idb]

I suggest you read this The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features
Fast & Furious did not happen as alleged.
Guns were not allowed to 'walk'.
It's a fucking scandal!

Republican lies.
Democrat politics.
ATF agents thrown to the wolves.

A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. How the world came to believe just the opposite is a tale of rivalry, murder, and political bloodlust.

Some call it the "parade of ants"; others the "river of iron." The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

There is too much information out there other than that which states your source is full of shit.

You should be appalled at all parties bigrednec.
What a fucking mess!!!

 

[Vast LWC]

They have NOT been furnished ANY of the subpoenaed documents that they have requested re the Brian Terry incident. Why is that? Sure Congress has been given a whole bunch of stuff they didn't ask for and a whole lot of stuff that was immaterial to the questions they want answers for.

Why are YOU so butt hurt that Congress is exercising its constitutionally mandated function of oversight? Why are YOU so certain that Holder and the President should not release the requested documents? Why are you defending Holder's refusal to do so and the President's enacting EP for something he said he knew nothing about?

Is it so terrifying to you that your annointed ones, your heroes might actually have something to hide? Would you be so generous in them hiding it if it was the Bush administration?

Can you honestly say you would be defending George Bush and Alberto Gonzales if they had refused to turn over specific documents that Congress demanded re the death of a border patrol agent?

The Bush administration did the exact same thing, 6 times, and I didn't hear a peep out of any of you.

6 times.

Stop with your false self-righteousness, it doesn't suit you.

There is absolutely no evidence of any wrongdoing here.

There is just a failed law enforcement operation, and an argument between the Legislative and Executive branch.

I admit that Fast and Furious was ineffective, and probably ill-conceived, but that's not a crime, nor was it a crime when Bush replaced all those Federal Judges.

If you wish to bring a case against someone in the American Justice system, you must have grounds to do so.

The rules for Congress may be different, so they can do all the political grandstanding they want, but they have no grounds for the waste-of-taxpayer-money investigation they are conducting here.

Just like the judges thing with Bush, and just like the Lewinski thing with Clinton.

They're just hoping that they can find someplace in the thousands of documents where someone mis-spoke or made a mistake in a report, so they can pounce on it and put someone in jail for perjury.

Which makes them a bunch of assholes. But then we knew that already.

 

[Vast LWC]

But I do after reading Issa's leter to Obama.

perhaps you have heard about it? And even if you have? So what?

I repost it.

Either You Were Involved in ‘Fast & Furious’ or You Are Asserting a Presidential Power That You Know to be Unjustified: Rep. Issa’s Scathing Letter to President Obama

Did he send that before or after he stated:

Mr. Issa said his investigation had uncovered no evidence and now had no strong suspicion that Mr. Holder had known about or authorized a tactic used in Fast and Furious called gunwalking.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/u...-contempt-citation-battle.html?pagewanted=all

Man, that guy changes his story a lot, doesn't he?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I suggest you read this The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal - Fortune Features
Fast & Furious did not happen as alleged.
Guns were not allowed to 'walk'.
It's a fucking scandal!

Republican lies.
Democrat politics.
ATF agents thrown to the wolves.

There is too much information out there other than that which states your source is full of shit.

You should be appalled at all parties bigrednec.
What a fucking mess!!!

We need to get to the bottom of this so we can keep it from happening again.

 

[Foxfyre]

Fast and furious may in fact be one of those screwy things government does that was well intended but went very wrong. We have so many such events in our history to point to: A number of ill advised WWII missions, The Bay of Pigs, the escalation of the Vietnam War, the attempted rescue of the American embassy people in Iran, the Iran Contra stuff, George H.W. Bush's backing off his 'no new taxes' pledge, the Clinton impeachment, the invasion of Iraq, the events leading up to the housing bubble collapse, and now, in all likelihood, Fast & Furious.

It is not a matter of condemning or hanging somebody for a well intended project that goes very wrong or turns out to be a really bad idea.

It IS a matter of full disclosure on what happened, why it went wrong if it did, and how do we avoid making that mistake again? When our government provides full disclosure, yes heads may roll and careers may end in disgrace. Such is life in the free world both in government and in the private sector.

But full disclosure is nevertheless necessary in order for us to have a Democratic Republic and a free people. No matter who they are and no matter what party they represent, if the Attorney General or anybody else is allowed to cover his and/or the President's butt with impunity, we are all screwed.

 

[Vast LWC]

Reasoning with partisans goes only so far in my world. Yours is fortunately more tolerant than mine.

Good on ya.

Ahh, I see.

I'm pointing out the fact that taxpayer money is being wasted on an investigation where even the lead investigator admits that he has no evidence of wrongdoing or even a strong suspicion of wrongdoing by the people being investigated...

And I'm the partisan.

That Bizarro planet you live on a nice place?

 

[The T]

But I do after reading Issa's leter to Obama.

perhaps you have heard about it? And even if you have? So what?

I repost it.

Either You Were Involved in ‘Fast & Furious’ or You Are Asserting a Presidential Power That You Know to be Unjustified: Rep. Issa’s Scathing Letter to President Obama

Did he send that before or after he stated:

Mr. Issa said his investigation had uncovered no evidence and now had no strong suspicion that Mr. Holder had known about or authorized a tactic used in Fast and Furious called gunwalking.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/u...-contempt-citation-battle.html?pagewanted=all

Man, that guy changes his story a lot, doesn't he?

Rather than NY Slimes? I rather rely on Mr. Issa's pertinent questions directly to Obama.

But I submit your answer is a great illustration of mental partisan gymnastics by you to protect Obama, Holder, and to a lesser extent? Yourself.

Nice going. Got mustard ready?

Award Winner Vast LWC. ​

 

[Katzndogz]

What ever this regime is hiding, it's more than a mere mistake.

 

[Vast LWC]

Fast and furious may in fact be one of those screwy things government does that was well intended but went very wrong. We have so many such events in our history to point to: A number of ill advised WWII missions, The Bay of Pigs, the escalation of the Vietnam War, the attempted rescue of the American embassy people in Iran, the Iran Contra stuff, George H.W. Bush's backing off his 'no new taxes' pledge, the Clinton impeachment, the invasion of Iraq, the events leading up to the housing bubble collapse, and now, in all likelihood, Fast & Furious.

It is not a matter of condemning or hanging somebody for a well intended project that goes very wrong or turns out to be a really bad idea.

It IS a matter of full disclosure on what happened, why it went wrong if it did, and how do we avoid making that mistake again? When our government provides full disclosure, yes heads may roll and careers may end in disgrace. Such is life in the free world both in government and in the private sector.

But full disclosure is nevertheless necessary in order for us to have a Democratic Republic and a free people. No matter who they are and no matter what party they represent, if the Attorney General or anybody else is allowed to cover his and/or the President's butt with impunity, we are all screwed.

If that were the case, then I would agree with you.

But you can certainly tell that is not the case, just by the direction the investigation is going.

Holder is not being held in contempt because he's holding back documents on operational failures.

Congress is specifically asking for documents where he, or others, may have mistakenly given Congress incorrect information.

In other words:

They are looking to try to nail someone on perjury charges unrelated to the failure of the operation.

THAT'S why it's a "witch-hunt", and THAT'S why they keep pursuing it even after they admit they have no evidence or suspicion of wrongdoing.

And THAT is why Obama stepped in.

 

[Vast LWC]

But let me put it in Holder's own words.

“My efforts to resolve this matter short of such a battle were rebuffed by Congressman Issa and his supporters,” Mr. Holder said after the vote. “It’s clear that they were not interested in bringing an end to this dispute or obtaining the information they claimed to seek.”

 

[Foxfyre]

Fast and furious may in fact be one of those screwy things government does that was well intended but went very wrong. We have so many such events in our history to point to: A number of ill advised WWII missions, The Bay of Pigs, the escalation of the Vietnam War, the attempted rescue of the American embassy people in Iran, the Iran Contra stuff, George H.W. Bush's backing off his 'no new taxes' pledge, the Clinton impeachment, the invasion of Iraq, the events leading up to the housing bubble collapse, and now, in all likelihood, Fast & Furious.

It is not a matter of condemning or hanging somebody for a well intended project that goes very wrong or turns out to be a really bad idea.

It IS a matter of full disclosure on what happened, why it went wrong if it did, and how do we avoid making that mistake again? When our government provides full disclosure, yes heads may roll and careers may end in disgrace. Such is life in the free world both in government and in the private sector.

But full disclosure is nevertheless necessary in order for us to have a Democratic Republic and a free people. No matter who they are and no matter what party they represent, if the Attorney General or anybody else is allowed to cover his and/or the President's butt with impunity, we are all screwed.

If that were the case, then I would agree with you.

But you can certainly tell that is not the case, just by the direction the investigation is going.

Holder is not being held in contempt because he's holding back documents on operational failures.

Congress is specifically asking for documents where he, or others, may have mistakenly given Congress incorrect information.

In other words:

They are looking to try to nail someone on perjury charges unrelated to the failure of the operation.

THAT'S why it's a "witch-hunt", and THAT'S why they keep pursuing it even after they admit they have no evidence or suspicion of wrongdoing.

And THAT is why Obama stepped in.

You are drawing assumptions that you cannot prove. You appear to be coming from a purely partisan perspective, one with total blinders on, to defend the AG and the President against something you cannot support with any documentation or anybody's words or anybody's suggestion other than what you are reading on the leftwing websites or hearing from the partisan talking heads on television who are trying their damndest to deflect attention from the AG and President and make the GOP the villains.

The AG and President give every appearance of having something serious to hide by their actions. If they had been forthcoming with the subpoenaed documents and had thereby shown that there was nothing incriminating there, this would have been over long ago.

 

[Vast LWC]

You are drawing assumptions that you cannot prove. You appear to be coming from a purely partisan perspective, one with total blinders on, to defend the AG and the President against something you cannot support with any documentation or anybody's words or anybody's suggestion other than what you are reading on the leftwing websites or hearing from the partisan talking heads on television who are trying their damndest to deflect attention from the AG and President and make the GOP the villains.

The AG and President give every appearance of having something serious to hide by their actions. If they had been forthcoming with the subpoenaed documents and had thereby shown that there was nothing incriminating there, this would have been over long ago.

I'm not making any "assumptions".

Let me ask you this:

The specific documents that Issa filed contempt charges against Holder for:

Were they, or were they not letters sent to congress by Holder that seemed to contradict each other?

Were they, or were they not documents that dealt specifically with Holder's knowledge of the operation, rather than operational failures?

 

[The T]

But let me put it in Holder's own words.

“My efforts to resolve this matter short of such a battle were rebuffed by Congressman Issa and his supporters,” Mr. Holder said after the vote. “It’s clear that they were not interested in bringing an end to this dispute or obtaining the information they claimed to seek.”

So? The ONUS is on Holder...isn't it? HE is hiding behind the slick perfectly creased trousers of Obama under EP in a fetal postion, isn't he?

*I* Don't buy it with Mr. Holder's prior record working for Janet-el-Reno.

TRY again.

 

[Vast LWC]

So? The ONUS is on Holder...isn't it? HE is hiding behind the slick perfectly creased trousers of Obama under EP in a fetal postion, isn't he?

*I* Don't buy it with Mr. Holder's prior record working for Janet-el-Reno.

TRY again.

You don't have to buy anything.

The motivation for their inquisition is obvious to anyone, and Holder is far from stupid.

Therefore, he's not playing along. And Obama's got his back.

Now, if there were even an iota of criminal wrongdoing on Holder's part, I would be up in arms about this. But even Issa admits there is not, and he should know.

And since there is not, I'm going to keep on pointing out the facts with the intent of defending their actions.