Faith is Born from Fear

[MaxGrit]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.” - Mark Twain

I love Carl Sagan man. One of the most inspirational minds of our time.

No doubt. I remember listening to George Carlin on how religion is the greatest bullshit story ever written and I remember being in full agreement with what he was saying but I didn't put 2 and 2 together and realize that the entire notion of god is insane.

Today I can go on the internet and listen to great minds like Sagan. And watch the theists will bash him just like the Republicans bash Michael Moore. If they don't like what they are hearing they try to discredit the speaker. They'll say Sagan is a kook or nut. He's not. He's brilliant.

I agree. Christians resort to attacking the person and trying to discredit them when they can't attack the actual argument on its merits.

I do have to disagree with you about Michael Moor, however. I agree with his opinions on Bush but I find his support of Obama to be a little hypocritical.

You get the point though. The GOP hated Michael Moore because he was saying things they didn't like, but rather than discuss the topics he was talking about, they attack him personally and so nothing Michael Moore ever produces or says in the future matters. It's a tactic they use. They do it to every liberal. Pelosi, Reed, Ed Schultz, Randi Rhodes, Thom Hartmann, etc.

Yet we have to listen to what Romney, Chaney, Rush, Bill O'Reilly & Glen Beck have to say. Why are they taken seriously?

Yes I definitely agree. Christians do this far too often. They have this idea that free speech is a bad thing because it allows people to say things they don't like and if this nation ever became a true theocracy we would see that free speech we all enjoy become greatly diminished.

Just know that you will give account for your every word on judgment day will your own words condemn you?

No but yours will if there really is a judgement day. Your God is said to look poorly on liars and the self righteous.

Jesus is the final judge of sin loving unbelievers on judgment day but JESUS is a believers LORD and Savior and the only judgment believers face is the judgments of their works for what rewards they will receive!!! AWESOME!!! HUH??

I just want to say for the record, people like you sicken me. Whatever potential for good Christianity has is lost when people like you get involved.

I want to get in on the roller quotster

 

[AtheistBuddah]

Sadly though many Christians who go through those intervals of doubt turn to their religious authority (pastor, priest, etc) who is trained to discredit that doubt and reaffirm the delusion. So their doubt and reflection accomplishes nothing.

Why do you think primitive man would need a consolation to satisfy unanswerable questions about death? Because we fear the unknown and we as social animals fear an outcome that results in nonexistence. We fear having the experience and social interaction that is life taken away.

And yes I do feel slightly annoyed by Christians who are satisfied with their version of God because they have chosen not to question it. But that is their right and I would never dream of taking it from them.

Again, consciousness of inevitable death does not mean even primitive man was afraid to die. But since they were human they felt loss, they grieved, they cried, they found a satisfactory solution to act as a coping mechanism.

Further, why be annoyed by Christians who are content with their version of reality? Basically, you're proselytizing to the non-atheist in an identical manner as the Christian to you, and that's about as smart as spitting into the wind.

Fair enough. We can still agree though, I think, that man made God and the afterlife up as a way of making ourselves feel better.

And just because they annoy me does not mean I have a real desire to change their minds. In the end as long as their beliefs do not inspire actions that infringe upon the rights of others then it is their business. I agree that proselytizing to theists is about as smart as spitting into the wind. (Good analogy btw)

 

[AtheistBuddah]

oh? satan had the same idea he questioned GOD'S Word he said to eve,"did GOD really say you would surely die if you do not obey His law"? Satan lives on lies doubt and fear that is all he has to defeat man. Why help satan?

If Satan exists then I think it's safe to say that you would be one of his greatest assets.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

GOD says you have no excuse to not know God is real====
God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, evil men who push away the truth from them. 19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively; God has put this knowledge in their hearts. 20 Since earliest times men have seen the earth and sky and all God made, and have known of his existence and great eternal power. So they will have no excuse when they stand before God at Judgment Day.
21 Yes, they knew about him all right, but they wouldn’t admit it or worship him or even thank him for all his daily care. And after a while they began to think up silly ideas of what God was like and what he wanted them to do. The result was that their foolish minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming themselves to be wise without God, they became utter fools instead. 23Romans 1:18-22

Alright now you're just copying and pasting your old posts. It's clear that you have nothing of worth to contribute to this thread.

 

[amrchaos]

I seriously doubt that fear had anything to do with early religion.

Fear is a primitive tactic to herd people. A practical religion does not need fear, it just need to give good advice on living.

Anything else is some kind of "attachment" which you could examine further if you want to know what the purpose of a particular religion/religious sect is.

OMG you couldn't be any more dumb. Fear is exactly the reason the human mind came up with god(s). That and ignorance regarding science. Think about early primitive man. Like us they wondered what happened to their love ones when they died. They were sad when they died. And they wondered what would happen to them when they died. Of course they told themselves that one day they would see their love ones again in the great beyond. In "heaven".

Like every other animal humans too had a healthy fear of the unknown. It helped keep them alive. They also had brains large enough to imagine up a super parent/god(s).

Fear played a very big part in inventing god. For you to suggest not says how close minded you are to the possibility that your god(s) are completely made up. Trust us, they are.

I believe my gods are the ones that created me and did their best to teach me to be an acceptable human being.

And despite what you say, my mother and father do exists!!

Now what do you say to that, Mr Know it all?

If you read my post a little better, you would know that is not a theistic take on religion!!

I suggested that there are "thematic attachments" on a religion that can be used to define the purpose of that religion?

Tell me, what theist thinks like that? Buddhists? Taoists? You tell me.


And by the way, the theme of death in earlier religions had everyone going to the same place. The divided "afterlife" is a new theme mainly found in western religion. It came about due to societies becoming more complex and a need for authority. If you think about it, it is too complex a theme to create without some added incentive. The whole idea of "Justice" had to be formed before we could talk about who goes to "eternal Bingo night" and who goes to "Porkies BBQ pit"

This is how I see it

Early religions were very simple and did not answer much--why would they, it was new and who was the religious authority? Probably the tribe itself or the chief of a tribe.

Later religions, become more complex as societies became complex

Western religion--highly complex because it tries to reach for too much.

Whatever the Future Religion will be is a guess but it has to avoid conflicts with what is provable. Else it will get tossed into the junk heap.

 

[amrchaos]

You ever hear of protesting too much? That's the op.

On the contrary, Christians DON'T have to live in fear because Christ died for their sins and paid the price.

John 3:16 King James Version
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The op is protesting too much he doesn't have fear and making it clear, he's living in denial.

I made no form of protest. I stated facts. Also I just have to point out that the irony of your closing statement is pretty funny.

No, sorry you did not post facts, you posted YOUR OPINION. And in it, you protested way too much.

Your protesting too much, betrays fear. Your anger betrays fear.

If you were so darn secure, you wouldn't need to be declaring why you think atheism is better than Christianity. Obviously, Christianity worries you. You can read it all over the op. Maybe you don't see it, but everyone else does.

BTW, I don't fear hell. I don't have to, I'm covered by the blood of Jesus.

But you? What is the old saying? If a Christian is wrong then, he's wrong. He'll die and never know he was wrong.

But if YOU are wrong, then what? Better think about that.

Alright firstly, Pacal's Wager is full of shit and you betray your fear by using it. It's a false dichotomy. It assumes that the only two options are:
A)You're right in which case I burn and you are rewarded.
Or
B) I'm right and neither of us will exist to know about it.Those are not the only two options. We could both be wrong.
Any of the other religions could be right and we'd both burn in their version of hell. Or they could all be wrong. There could be an afterlife but no God(s). Or God(s) but no afterlife. Or there could be a God(s) that just lets everyone into heaven.
Even if I had undeniable proof that your God existed I still would not worship him simply to save myself from hell because that is the act of a coward. I have a guiding set of morals that your Bible and your God routinely trample on and I won't comprise them just to save myself from your deity's wrath.

Lastly, yes Christianity does worry me but not for the reasons you think. The possibility of me being wrong doesn't scare me. The possibility of your religion turning the country I love into a theocracy does.

Turning this country into a Theocracy maybe the least of our problem.

What do you think Cannibals do when they are hungry ? They tend to kill and eat each other! And that is what all these little denominations would do. Fight each other and proclaim their interpretation is true.

And before any of you disagree with me just remember what happened in Europe. It wasn't just the Catholics fighting each group. It was one religious sect fighting another.

But then again, the Catholics most likely will win. Their global numbers and political expertise gives them a fine edge over any Protestant group probably except the Mormons.

So what do the theocrats want? A government that answer to a church in Italy, or the one that answers to the church in Utah?
Because no other group has a chance to win. Think about it.

 

[Genevieve]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

Religion uses guilt and fear to herd people into certain behaviors.
That has always been the case I think.

That people use peoples' inherent fears to control them does nothing to prove there is a God or to disprove it.

The consistency and repetition in nature; the laws of physics and math that were there before men discovered them point to intelligent creation. It may be that our Creator is NOT the judgmental being that humankind has built It so be. It may be that our Souls are created by the Creator to learn, to experience ........so that the Creator can experience something beyond the loneliness of just being.

Perhaps we are flawed for a purpose. Maybe in order for us to not be God's little robots, we are given flaws and challenges where we can make decisions on our own, not subject to God's choices for us. Free choice makes it necessary to have flaws to work with.

In my belief, every single person belongs to God. At some point a Soul will realize itself. Young Souls might not be to that point of realization yet. But that non-realizing Soul is just as loved by God as is the older self-realizing Soul.

This is one of many possibilities
I believe that our religions take a very narrow view of things.
Maybe some atheists should look beyond religion before they declare that they don't believe in Intelligent Design. What is God? What does God do? What can God do?

 

[AtheistBuddah]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

Religion uses guilt and fear to herd people into certain behaviors.
That has always been the case I think.

That people use peoples' inherent fears to control them does nothing to prove there is a God or to disprove it.

The consistency and repetition in nature; the laws of physics and math that were there before men discovered them point to intelligent creation. It may be that our Creator is NOT the judgmental being that humankind has built It so be. It may be that our Souls are created by the Creator to learn, to experience ........so that the Creator can experience something beyond the loneliness of just being.

Perhaps we are flawed for a purpose. Maybe in order for us to not be God's little robots, we are given flaws and challenges where we can make decisions on our own, not subject to God's choices for us. Free choice makes it necessary to have flaws to work with.

In my belief, every single person belongs to God. At some point a Soul will realize itself. Young Souls might not be to that point of realization yet. But that non-realizing Soul is just as loved by God as is the older self-realizing Soul.

This is one of many possibilities
I believe that our religions take a very narrow view of things.
Maybe some atheists should look beyond religion before they declare that they don't believe in Intelligent Design. What is God? What does God do? What can God do?

I hold many views that are analogous to the ones you've stated here, though it may not seem like I do based on my OP. For example. I don't agree with the traditional idea of Intelligent Design based on the fundamentalist Christian perspective but I do sometimes wonder if the processes of evolution aren't subtly and minutely guided by some sentient force. It would at times seem that way though given the nature of the cosmos I would say that if something created us then it would be vastly different than any of the gods depicted by man so far. It may very well have its own limitations just as we have ours.

 

[Genevieve]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

Religion uses guilt and fear to herd people into certain behaviors.
That has always been the case I think.

That people use peoples' inherent fears to control them does nothing to prove there is a God or to disprove it.

The consistency and repetition in nature; the laws of physics and math that were there before men discovered them point to intelligent creation. It may be that our Creator is NOT the judgmental being that humankind has built It so be. It may be that our Souls are created by the Creator to learn, to experience ........so that the Creator can experience something beyond the loneliness of just being.

Perhaps we are flawed for a purpose. Maybe in order for us to not be God's little robots, we are given flaws and challenges where we can make decisions on our own, not subject to God's choices for us. Free choice makes it necessary to have flaws to work with.

In my belief, every single person belongs to God. At some point a Soul will realize itself. Young Souls might not be to that point of realization yet. But that non-realizing Soul is just as loved by God as is the older self-realizing Soul.

This is one of many possibilities
I believe that our religions take a very narrow view of things.
Maybe some atheists should look beyond religion before they declare that they don't believe in Intelligent Design. What is God? What does God do? What can God do?

I hold many views that are analogous to the ones you've stated here, though it may not seem like I do based on my OP. For example. I don't agree with the traditional idea of Intelligent Design based on the fundamentalist Christian perspective but I do sometimes wonder if the processes of evolution aren't subtly and minutely guided by some sentient force. It would at times seem that way though given the nature of the cosmos I would say that if something created us then it would be vastly different than any of the gods depicted by man so far. It may very well have its own limitations just as we have ours.

I am glad you are open minded.
To even begin to break away from historical religious belief and explore that really might be regarding Intelligent Design ......requires an open mind.

Religions have their purpose. They help to keep us somewhat civilized (even though they also produce zealots that make the full circle and kill).

Let's say that the Creator made the rules, then implemented them. If we break the rules (breathe under water for example) we suffer the consequences. That's awful, but it makes sense. But then, someone who is making up a religion says "God says breathing under water is a sin and if you do that ........God will kill you". Well, right away..... we get the idea that God is a vengeful God. But a religion is born.

Rules of physics and biology and mathematics are necessary to have a cohesive universe that won't just fall apart. But God doesn't hate us if we break those rules....... the consequences, though, are built in.

I believe strongly in Intelligent Design.

 

[PratchettFan]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

“I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But much as I want to believe that, and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking. The world is so exquisite with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there’s little good evidence. Far better it seems to me, in our vulnerability, is to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.” – Carl Sagan

“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.” - Mark Twain

I love Carl Sagan man. One of the most inspirational minds of our time.

No doubt. I remember listening to George Carlin on how religion is the greatest bullshit story ever written and I remember being in full agreement with what he was saying but I didn't put 2 and 2 together and realize that the entire notion of god is insane.

Today I can go on the internet and listen to great minds like Sagan. And watch the theists will bash him just like the Republicans bash Michael Moore. If they don't like what they are hearing they try to discredit the speaker. They'll say Sagan is a kook or nut. He's not. He's brilliant.

I agree. Christians resort to attacking the person and trying to discredit them when they can't attack the actual argument on its merits.

I do have to disagree with you about Michael Moor, however. I agree with his opinions on Bush but I find his support of Obama to be a little hypocritical.

You get the point though. The GOP hated Michael Moore because he was saying things they didn't like, but rather than discuss the topics he was talking about, they attack him personally and so nothing Michael Moore ever produces or says in the future matters. It's a tactic they use. They do it to every liberal. Pelosi, Reed, Ed Schultz, Randi Rhodes, Thom Hartmann, etc.

Yet we have to listen to what Romney, Chaney, Rush, Bill O'Reilly & Glen Beck have to say. Why are they taken seriously?

Yes I definitely agree. Christians do this far too often. They have this idea that free speech is a bad thing because it allows people to say things they don't like and if this nation ever became a true theocracy we would see that free speech we all enjoy become greatly diminished.

You do get that the majority of liberals are Christians, don't you?

But the majority of fundamentalist, Bible thumping thought police are conservatives. You do see that, don't you?

Yes. Which is why I try not to make sweeping statements that lump entire groups of people into a single box. I understand that makes it easier to point fingers and feel superior, but it is dishonest and wildly inaccurate.

 

[PratchettFan]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

You are doing to others what you complain others are doing to you.

I am doing no such thing. I do not complain about the criticism of my ideas in fact I welcome and cherish it. I welcome Christians to make the same criticizing statements about my views because that is a vital part of how a free society works. What I complain about is when my rights and the rights of other minorities are infringed upon by the Christian majority in the name of their specific values.

Yes, you are. You are taking an entire class of people and sticking them into a little box and slapping a label on it. You are acting in exactly the same manner as the people you are complaining about.

The fundamental difference is that I am not trying to get laws passed that limit their freedom of expression.

I have no idea what you personally might be doing, but to say Atheists have not tried to do this is flat wrong. In fact, most of the attempts to limit freedom of expression I can think of have come from either Atheists or the left.

 

[PratchettFan]

oh? satan had the same idea he questioned GOD'S Word he said to eve,"did GOD really say you would surely die if you do not obey His law"? Satan lives on lies doubt and fear that is all he has to defeat man. Why help satan?

Satan who?

Rick Satan. He lives a couple of doors down from me. Nice guy.

 

[mudwhistle]

 

[PratchettFan]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

Religion uses guilt and fear to herd people into certain behaviors.
That has always been the case I think.

That people use peoples' inherent fears to control them does nothing to prove there is a God or to disprove it.

The consistency and repetition in nature; the laws of physics and math that were there before men discovered them point to intelligent creation. It may be that our Creator is NOT the judgmental being that humankind has built It so be. It may be that our Souls are created by the Creator to learn, to experience ........so that the Creator can experience something beyond the loneliness of just being.

Perhaps we are flawed for a purpose. Maybe in order for us to not be God's little robots, we are given flaws and challenges where we can make decisions on our own, not subject to God's choices for us. Free choice makes it necessary to have flaws to work with.

In my belief, every single person belongs to God. At some point a Soul will realize itself. Young Souls might not be to that point of realization yet. But that non-realizing Soul is just as loved by God as is the older self-realizing Soul.

This is one of many possibilities
I believe that our religions take a very narrow view of things.
Maybe some atheists should look beyond religion before they declare that they don't believe in Intelligent Design. What is God? What does God do? What can God do?

I hold many views that are analogous to the ones you've stated here, though it may not seem like I do based on my OP. For example. I don't agree with the traditional idea of Intelligent Design based on the fundamentalist Christian perspective but I do sometimes wonder if the processes of evolution aren't subtly and minutely guided by some sentient force. It would at times seem that way though given the nature of the cosmos I would say that if something created us then it would be vastly different than any of the gods depicted by man so far. It may very well have its own limitations just as we have ours.

I am glad you are open minded.
To even begin to break away from historical religious belief and explore that really might be regarding Intelligent Design ......requires an open mind.

Religions have their purpose. They help to keep us somewhat civilized (even though they also produce zealots that make the full circle and kill).

Let's say that the Creator made the rules, then implemented them. If we break the rules (breathe under water for example) we suffer the consequences. That's awful, but it makes sense. But then, someone who is making up a religion says "God says breathing under water is a sin and if you do that ........God will kill you". Well, right away..... we get the idea that God is a vengeful God. But a religion is born.

Rules of physics and biology and mathematics are necessary to have a cohesive universe that won't just fall apart. But God doesn't hate us if we break those rules....... the consequences, though, are built in.

I believe strongly in Intelligent Design.

I'm not sure what I believe would be intelligent design as that implies an outside force. I think there is a controlling aspect to our universe but I don't think it is cognizant of us. I think it was Delta who used the analogy of a single blood cell inside a human body and I think it apt. Your body is currently creating blood cells but you aren't really aware it is happening. Yet it is all you.

I have no reason to believe that to be the case with the universe, but it does feel right to me. Until something better comes along, you should always go with your gut. I believe the problems we run into are when we insist other people go with our gut.

 

[sealybobo]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

You are doing to others what you complain others are doing to you.

I am doing no such thing. I do not complain about the criticism of my ideas in fact I welcome and cherish it. I welcome Christians to make the same criticizing statements about my views because that is a vital part of how a free society works. What I complain about is when my rights and the rights of other minorities are infringed upon by the Christian majority in the name of their specific values.

Yes, you are. You are taking an entire class of people and sticking them into a little box and slapping a label on it. You are acting in exactly the same manner as the people you are complaining about.

The fundamental difference is that I am not trying to get laws passed that limit their freedom of expression.

I have no idea what you personally might be doing, but to say Atheists have not tried to do this is flat wrong. In fact, most of the attempts to limit freedom of expression I can think of have come from either Atheists or the left.

We want an Atheist display next to your Christmas displays. We want a booth next to Santa to talk to all the kids that don't believe in Santa or Xmas. And we want to put up right next to the Prayer you have in our school a sign that says THERE IS NO GOD and a Website where students can go see that their parents and churches have quite possibly been feeding them a fairy tale for the last 3-18 years. Let them decide after seeing both sides of the argument. But instead it is you who wouldn't dare let us have a place in society because we would expose your lie.

So don't cry about us. We sit quietly and let your religious holidays go by and some of us even participate. I like Easter and Xmas for the family. I skip church. The people bore me. Should I find a new church? Why? Am I doing it because I believe in God or because I want to meet new friends and have fun?

For some they believe because they want to believe. They don't want to be the odd ball in the flock. They enjoy church and the people at church. Met their wives or husbands at church. I know there is a lot of good that comes out of this cult but a lot of bad comes too. Like Ghandi said. Christ sounded like a good man. It's Christians that he had a problem with. AGREED!

 

[PratchettFan]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

You are doing to others what you complain others are doing to you.

I am doing no such thing. I do not complain about the criticism of my ideas in fact I welcome and cherish it. I welcome Christians to make the same criticizing statements about my views because that is a vital part of how a free society works. What I complain about is when my rights and the rights of other minorities are infringed upon by the Christian majority in the name of their specific values.

Yes, you are. You are taking an entire class of people and sticking them into a little box and slapping a label on it. You are acting in exactly the same manner as the people you are complaining about.

The fundamental difference is that I am not trying to get laws passed that limit their freedom of expression.

I have no idea what you personally might be doing, but to say Atheists have not tried to do this is flat wrong. In fact, most of the attempts to limit freedom of expression I can think of have come from either Atheists or the left.

We want an Atheist display next to your Christmas displays. We want a booth next to Santa to talk to all the kids that don't believe in Santa or Xmas. And we want to put up right next to the Prayer you have in our school a sign that says THERE IS NO GOD and a Website where students can go see that their parents and churches have quite possibly been feeding them a fairy tale for the last 3-18 years. Let them decide after seeing both sides of the argument. But instead it is you who wouldn't dare let us have a place in society because we would expose your lie.

So don't cry about us. We sit quietly and let your religious holidays go by and some of us even participate. I like Easter and Xmas for the family. I skip church. The people bore me. Should I find a new church? Why? Am I doing it because I believe in God or because I want to meet new friends and have fun?

For some they believe because they want to believe. They don't want to be the odd ball in the flock. They enjoy church and the people at church. Met their wives or husbands at church. I know there is a lot of good that comes out of this cult but a lot of bad comes too. Like Ghandi said. Christ sounded like a good man. It's Christians that he had a problem with. AGREED!

Put them there. Who is stopping you? Don't go to church. Who is making you? You make a comment about limiting freedom expression, so let's deal with that claim. You want to match law for law, lawsuit for lawsuit, on which side is doing that the most? Heck, I'll start... Justices allow cross on public land in California - USATODAY.com

Your turn.

 

[Genevieve]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

Religion uses guilt and fear to herd people into certain behaviors.
That has always been the case I think.

That people use peoples' inherent fears to control them does nothing to prove there is a God or to disprove it.

The consistency and repetition in nature; the laws of physics and math that were there before men discovered them point to intelligent creation. It may be that our Creator is NOT the judgmental being that humankind has built It so be. It may be that our Souls are created by the Creator to learn, to experience ........so that the Creator can experience something beyond the loneliness of just being.

Perhaps we are flawed for a purpose. Maybe in order for us to not be God's little robots, we are given flaws and challenges where we can make decisions on our own, not subject to God's choices for us. Free choice makes it necessary to have flaws to work with.

In my belief, every single person belongs to God. At some point a Soul will realize itself. Young Souls might not be to that point of realization yet. But that non-realizing Soul is just as loved by God as is the older self-realizing Soul.

This is one of many possibilities
I believe that our religions take a very narrow view of things.
Maybe some atheists should look beyond religion before they declare that they don't believe in Intelligent Design. What is God? What does God do? What can God do?

I hold many views that are analogous to the ones you've stated here, though it may not seem like I do based on my OP. For example. I don't agree with the traditional idea of Intelligent Design based on the fundamentalist Christian perspective but I do sometimes wonder if the processes of evolution aren't subtly and minutely guided by some sentient force. It would at times seem that way though given the nature of the cosmos I would say that if something created us then it would be vastly different than any of the gods depicted by man so far. It may very well have its own limitations just as we have ours.

I am glad you are open minded.
To even begin to break away from historical religious belief and explore that really might be regarding Intelligent Design ......requires an open mind.

Religions have their purpose. They help to keep us somewhat civilized (even though they also produce zealots that make the full circle and kill).

Let's say that the Creator made the rules, then implemented them. If we break the rules (breathe under water for example) we suffer the consequences. That's awful, but it makes sense. But then, someone who is making up a religion says "God says breathing under water is a sin and if you do that ........God will kill you". Well, right away..... we get the idea that God is a vengeful God. But a religion is born.

Rules of physics and biology and mathematics are necessary to have a cohesive universe that won't just fall apart. But God doesn't hate us if we break those rules....... the consequences, though, are built in.

I believe strongly in Intelligent Design.

I'm not sure what I believe would be intelligent design as that implies an outside force. I think there is a controlling aspect to our universe but I don't think it is cognizant of us. I think it was Delta who used the analogy of a single blood cell inside a human body and I think it apt. Your body is currently creating blood cells but you aren't really aware it is happening. Yet it is all you.

I have no reason to believe that to be the case with the universe, but it does feel right to me. Until something better comes along, you should always go with your gut. I believe the problems we run into are when we insist other people go with our gut.

I agree with what you said in the last sentence. The other part is also one of the many possibilities regarding our creation. There is no need to insist others believe like we do. It is okay to express our beliefs in appropriate places, at appropriate times, but stops being okay when coercion to agree comes into play.

 

[sealybobo]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

You are doing to others what you complain others are doing to you.

I am doing no such thing. I do not complain about the criticism of my ideas in fact I welcome and cherish it. I welcome Christians to make the same criticizing statements about my views because that is a vital part of how a free society works. What I complain about is when my rights and the rights of other minorities are infringed upon by the Christian majority in the name of their specific values.

Yes, you are. You are taking an entire class of people and sticking them into a little box and slapping a label on it. You are acting in exactly the same manner as the people you are complaining about.

The fundamental difference is that I am not trying to get laws passed that limit their freedom of expression.

I have no idea what you personally might be doing, but to say Atheists have not tried to do this is flat wrong. In fact, most of the attempts to limit freedom of expression I can think of have come from either Atheists or the left.

We want an Atheist display next to your Christmas displays. We want a booth next to Santa to talk to all the kids that don't believe in Santa or Xmas. And we want to put up right next to the Prayer you have in our school a sign that says THERE IS NO GOD and a Website where students can go see that their parents and churches have quite possibly been feeding them a fairy tale for the last 3-18 years. Let them decide after seeing both sides of the argument. But instead it is you who wouldn't dare let us have a place in society because we would expose your lie.

So don't cry about us. We sit quietly and let your religious holidays go by and some of us even participate. I like Easter and Xmas for the family. I skip church. The people bore me. Should I find a new church? Why? Am I doing it because I believe in God or because I want to meet new friends and have fun?

For some they believe because they want to believe. They don't want to be the odd ball in the flock. They enjoy church and the people at church. Met their wives or husbands at church. I know there is a lot of good that comes out of this cult but a lot of bad comes too. Like Ghandi said. Christ sounded like a good man. It's Christians that he had a problem with. AGREED!

Put them there. Who is stopping you? Don't go to church. Who is making you? You make a comment about limiting freedom expression, so let's deal with that claim. You want to match law for law, lawsuit for lawsuit, on which side is doing that the most? Heck, I'll start... Justices allow cross on public land in California - USATODAY.com

Your turn.

Frank Buono, a retired park service worker, had sued the National Park Service for allowing the Christian cross but no other religious symbols at the California site.

NO OTHER RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS. Nuff Said.

Lower U.S. courts sided with Buono and ruled that the cross violated the required constitutional separation of church and state under the First Amendment.

The issue for the justices Wednesday was not the finding of a constitutional violation, but rather whether a 2004 land-transfer law was permissible. To avoid the appearance of government endorsement of religion, Congress ordered a transfer of the property on which the cross sits to the VFW, in exchange for a parcel elsewhere in the preserve.

YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ALL THE DETAILS IDIOT.

Kennedy spoke favorably of Congress' attempt "to eliminate any perception of religious sponsorship …

 

[sealybobo]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

Religion uses guilt and fear to herd people into certain behaviors.
That has always been the case I think.

That people use peoples' inherent fears to control them does nothing to prove there is a God or to disprove it.

The consistency and repetition in nature; the laws of physics and math that were there before men discovered them point to intelligent creation. It may be that our Creator is NOT the judgmental being that humankind has built It so be. It may be that our Souls are created by the Creator to learn, to experience ........so that the Creator can experience something beyond the loneliness of just being.

Perhaps we are flawed for a purpose. Maybe in order for us to not be God's little robots, we are given flaws and challenges where we can make decisions on our own, not subject to God's choices for us. Free choice makes it necessary to have flaws to work with.

In my belief, every single person belongs to God. At some point a Soul will realize itself. Young Souls might not be to that point of realization yet. But that non-realizing Soul is just as loved by God as is the older self-realizing Soul.

This is one of many possibilities
I believe that our religions take a very narrow view of things.
Maybe some atheists should look beyond religion before they declare that they don't believe in Intelligent Design. What is God? What does God do? What can God do?

I hold many views that are analogous to the ones you've stated here, though it may not seem like I do based on my OP. For example. I don't agree with the traditional idea of Intelligent Design based on the fundamentalist Christian perspective but I do sometimes wonder if the processes of evolution aren't subtly and minutely guided by some sentient force. It would at times seem that way though given the nature of the cosmos I would say that if something created us then it would be vastly different than any of the gods depicted by man so far. It may very well have its own limitations just as we have ours.

I am glad you are open minded.
To even begin to break away from historical religious belief and explore that really might be regarding Intelligent Design ......requires an open mind.

Religions have their purpose. They help to keep us somewhat civilized (even though they also produce zealots that make the full circle and kill).

Let's say that the Creator made the rules, then implemented them. If we break the rules (breathe under water for example) we suffer the consequences. That's awful, but it makes sense. But then, someone who is making up a religion says "God says breathing under water is a sin and if you do that ........God will kill you". Well, right away..... we get the idea that God is a vengeful God. But a religion is born.

Rules of physics and biology and mathematics are necessary to have a cohesive universe that won't just fall apart. But God doesn't hate us if we break those rules....... the consequences, though, are built in.

I believe strongly in Intelligent Design.

I'm not sure what I believe would be intelligent design as that implies an outside force. I think there is a controlling aspect to our universe but I don't think it is cognizant of us. I think it was Delta who used the analogy of a single blood cell inside a human body and I think it apt. Your body is currently creating blood cells but you aren't really aware it is happening. Yet it is all you.

I have no reason to believe that to be the case with the universe, but it does feel right to me. Until something better comes along, you should always go with your gut. I believe the problems we run into are when we insist other people go with our gut.

I agree with what you said in the last sentence. The other part is also one of the many possibilities regarding our creation. There is no need to insist others believe like we do. It is okay to express our beliefs in appropriate places, at appropriate times, but stops being okay when coercion to agree comes into play.

Exactly. We should be able to punch them in the face if they say believe or go to hell. That is so insulting. They have freedom of speech but sometimes what you say can get your ass kicked.

 

[PratchettFan]

It has been said by many Christians that one of the primary reasons for someone being an atheist and saying that they don't believe is because they don't want to believe. They don't want to ask the hard question "What if I'm wrong?" because they can't accept the implications of that questioning. They claim that we as atheists take the easy way out but I argue that it is just the opposite. Christians downright refuse to humor any kind of questioning when it comes to their belief. They refuse to look inside themselves and ask "What if there is no God?" because they are terrified of the implications of that question. They claim we are afraid of hell but in fact it is they who are afraid of oblivion. Of nonexistence. Understandably so. The idea of ceasing to exist is unpleasant to say the least. That is why being an atheist is far from the easy way out.

As an atheist you look that unpleasant reality in the face, swallow your fear and accept it and live your life to its fullest. Being a Christian is a way of ignoring the fact that the world is an unpleasant and often unjust place where some people live their whole lives in despair before their flame of consciousness goes out forever. This world can be cruel and unfair but as atheists we accept that it's the only one we are ever going to get and that motivates us to fight our hardest to make it a better and brighter one. For our sake and for the sake of our children. We don't turn away from reality and turn a wishful eye to an afterlife that isn't going to happen.

You are doing to others what you complain others are doing to you.

I am doing no such thing. I do not complain about the criticism of my ideas in fact I welcome and cherish it. I welcome Christians to make the same criticizing statements about my views because that is a vital part of how a free society works. What I complain about is when my rights and the rights of other minorities are infringed upon by the Christian majority in the name of their specific values.

Yes, you are. You are taking an entire class of people and sticking them into a little box and slapping a label on it. You are acting in exactly the same manner as the people you are complaining about.

The fundamental difference is that I am not trying to get laws passed that limit their freedom of expression.

I have no idea what you personally might be doing, but to say Atheists have not tried to do this is flat wrong. In fact, most of the attempts to limit freedom of expression I can think of have come from either Atheists or the left.

We want an Atheist display next to your Christmas displays. We want a booth next to Santa to talk to all the kids that don't believe in Santa or Xmas. And we want to put up right next to the Prayer you have in our school a sign that says THERE IS NO GOD and a Website where students can go see that their parents and churches have quite possibly been feeding them a fairy tale for the last 3-18 years. Let them decide after seeing both sides of the argument. But instead it is you who wouldn't dare let us have a place in society because we would expose your lie.

So don't cry about us. We sit quietly and let your religious holidays go by and some of us even participate. I like Easter and Xmas for the family. I skip church. The people bore me. Should I find a new church? Why? Am I doing it because I believe in God or because I want to meet new friends and have fun?

For some they believe because they want to believe. They don't want to be the odd ball in the flock. They enjoy church and the people at church. Met their wives or husbands at church. I know there is a lot of good that comes out of this cult but a lot of bad comes too. Like Ghandi said. Christ sounded like a good man. It's Christians that he had a problem with. AGREED!

Put them there. Who is stopping you? Don't go to church. Who is making you? You make a comment about limiting freedom expression, so let's deal with that claim. You want to match law for law, lawsuit for lawsuit, on which side is doing that the most? Heck, I'll start... Justices allow cross on public land in California - USATODAY.com

Your turn.

Frank Buono, a retired park service worker, had sued the National Park Service for allowing the Christian cross but no other religious symbols at the California site.

NO OTHER RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS. Nuff Said.

Lower U.S. courts sided with Buono and ruled that the cross violated the required constitutional separation of church and state under the First Amendment.

The issue for the justices Wednesday was not the finding of a constitutional violation, but rather whether a 2004 land-transfer law was permissible. To avoid the appearance of government endorsement of religion, Congress ordered a transfer of the property on which the cross sits to the VFW, in exchange for a parcel elsewhere in the preserve.

YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW ALL THE DETAILS IDIOT.

Kennedy spoke favorably of Congress' attempt "to eliminate any perception of religious sponsorship …

I know the details. Your claim was about limiting freedom of expression. That lawsuit was intended to limit freedom of expression regardless of the details. So all you are doing is attempting to justify it. I'm still waiting for you to come up with something similar.