How do the non-spiritual explain it?

[Carla_Danger]

...which brings us to the next level of discussion. If god is a woman, does she dress like Queen Elizabeth, or like Lady Gaga?

LOL! I'm going with Lady Gaga.

 

[Carla_Danger]

There's no key.

Because you lack faith in believing there is one.

Because you're a rube who believes in magical "keys".

I have a collection of golden plates I will sell you. Just PM your Mastercard number and I'll arrange to get you the plates.

Really, just trust me.

Are those the same golden plates from when Joseph Smith looked inside a magic hat and was able to translate Egyptian hieroglyphics into English?

 

[edthecynic]

I have no special powers which allows me to find magic keys. You don't possess that power either. I know this because we have access to the same information.

I don't mind saying that I'm not 100% certain, but Gawd is very improbable, and I live my life under the assumption that he/she is not there.

What color dress do you see?
...we have access to the same information.

Well you would really have to see the dress in person. As someone who is experienced in color correcting photos, the light part of the dress could easily have a blue cast from the type of lighting. One thing is obvious, there is no way the darker part of the dress is black as it is not even close in color to the black panels on the left and right!

 

[Boss]

I have no special powers which allows me to find magic keys. You don't possess that power either. I know this because we have access to the same information.

I don't mind saying that I'm not 100% certain, but Gawd is very improbable, and I live my life under the assumption that he/she is not there.

What color dress do you see?
...we have access to the same information.

Well you would really have to see the dress in person. As someone who is experienced in color correcting photos, the light part of the dress could easily have a blue cast from the type of lighting. One thing is obvious, there is no way the darker part of the dress is black as it is not even close in color to the black panels on the left and right!

There are all kinds of problems with objectively evaluating the evidence to reach a conclusion. I also have over 30 years experience with critical color and digital imaging, and when I first looked at the dress it appeared to be white and gold. After all the hoopla, I kept looking and finally saw where people were seeing blue and black. I also see lilac/olive and orchid/orange. The photo has very little background to gain any sort of reference point, and the image is back-lit and faded. BUT.... You are missing the point!

We do not know the truth. We all have the same information. We are all seeing the same dress. Some of us will swear it must be white and gold and anyone who sees black and blue is a moron. Some will swear it's black and blue, and can't imagine how it's possible someone sees white and gold. Our perceptions of what we see are different, even though we have the exact same information.

 

[Boss]

No, that's not true. We both came to the same conclusion about the colors of the dress...

No, we didn't. You didn't say what color dress you saw. That was my question. You didn't reach a conclusion. If you did this with God, or "the key" in the example we are discussing, I wouldn't have a problem with that. It's okay to say you don't know, you don't have enough information.

My conclusion was, there is a true color of the dress and we don't know it. We can only have faith that we think we know. There are too many unknown and unknowable factors to draw a conclusion. Yet... our brain has already concluded. It has already concluded the dress is white/gold, blue/black, or something else, and that's what it is telling us is there. But what is the TRUTH?

 

[Carla_Danger]

No, that's not true. We both came to the same conclusion about the colors of the dress...

No, we didn't. You didn't say what color dress you saw. That was my question. You didn't reach a conclusion. If you did this with God, or "the key" in the example we are discussing, I wouldn't have a problem with that. It's okay to say you don't know, you don't have enough information.

My conclusion was, there is a true color of the dress and we don't know it. We can only have faith that we think we know. There are too many unknown and unknowable factors to draw a conclusion. Yet... our brain has already concluded. It has already concluded the dress is white/gold, blue/black, or something else, and that's what it is telling us is there. But what is the TRUTH?

I'd appreciate it if you not butcher or edit my quotes from now on.

Maybe you're a forgetful poster. You already stated that the dress can't be both sets of colors, it's one or the other, and possibly neither. Did you not say that? You have already admitted there's not enough info, so we both came to the same conclusion. What you're unhappy about is the fact that I did not answer the question they way you wanted me to answer.

My quote..."No, that's not true. We both came to the same conclusion about the colors of the dress, both admitting we need more information due to shadows and lighting, both having access to the same information. (Google)

Now if you could do the same for the key...."

 

[Carla_Danger]

No, that's not true. We both came to the same conclusion about the colors of the dress...

No, we didn't. You didn't say what color dress you saw. That was my question. You didn't reach a conclusion. If you did this with God, or "the key" in the example we are discussing, I wouldn't have a problem with that. It's okay to say you don't know, you don't have enough information.

My conclusion was, there is a true color of the dress and we don't know it. We can only have faith that we think we know. There are too many unknown and unknowable factors to draw a conclusion. Yet... our brain has already concluded. It has already concluded the dress is white/gold, blue/black, or something else, and that's what it is telling us is there. But what is the TRUTH?

What is this faith crap? Faith has nothing to do with the damn colors of a dress. We both have access to the same info. We both know that due to the shade and lighting we cannot determine the color without more information.

Now that you're changing your story and admitting your brain has already come to a conclusion without knowing the facts, that's your problem. It sounds like you're doing the same thing with the key, as you are with the dress.

 

[theword]

Setting aside the various criticisms of religious beliefs for a moment, and pretending the whimsical dismissal of God is perfectly 'natural' for man and all... how do the non-spiritualists explain the following....

Astral projection experiences.
Near-death experiences.
Transcendental meditation.
ESP and telepathy.
Ghost stories and paranormal experiences.
Other unexplained supernatural phenomenon.
Spells, curses and black magic.
Edgar Cayce.
Nostradamus.
Prophecy in general.

Is every single bit of it a bunch of hooey caused by our fears and imagination?

To me, it just seems as if there might be something more here. Especially in the case of people like Edgar Cayce. If you've never studied up on him, it's worth a search and read... fascinating man. His uncanny ability to predict the future was beyond anything we've ever known. He gave over 14k readings but that includes a brief period where he didn't do them because he was getting headaches. People were exploiting his power to win horse races and trade stock and he believed this was why he was getting the headaches. After some time, he did more readings but only his trusted wife was allowed to ask him questions.

Can our physical sciences understand this?

God is the Creator of everything, including all the illusions He formed from His creation such as aliens and their space ships, ghosts, demon looking images, Jesus, angels, people, beasts, flies, worms, fish, birds, etc.

 

[Hollie]

I don't mind saying that I'm not 100% certain, but Gawd is very improbable....

I admit, I don't really know what a Gawd is supposed to be. If you mean the incarnation of a bearded man sitting on a cloud with a Charlton Heston voice, who invisibly sits in judgment of man, meting out rewards and retributions based on religious dogma... I tend to agree such a concept is silly.

However... When I look at the sheer beauty of the universe, the complexity in volumes, the 40-some-odd constants which have to be intricately precise for any material universe to exist, much less life... couple this with science continuing to reveal how our own physics break down at the subatomic level, inside black holes and at the moment of the big bang... if there was a big bang. Add the understanding that matter cannot create matter, things can only be in motion if something acts on them to cause motion and it is impossible that physical nature can create itself... How can anyone NOT believe in something greater that we don't yet understand?

To me... it takes an enormous amount of faith to believe this is all random chance.

How can anyone NOT believe that such slogans and cliches' came directly from one of your fundamentalist creation ministries?

 

[Boss]

No, that's not true. We both came to the same conclusion about the colors of the dress...

No, we didn't. You didn't say what color dress you saw. That was my question. You didn't reach a conclusion. If you did this with God, or "the key" in the example we are discussing, I wouldn't have a problem with that. It's okay to say you don't know, you don't have enough information.

My conclusion was, there is a true color of the dress and we don't know it. We can only have faith that we think we know. There are too many unknown and unknowable factors to draw a conclusion. Yet... our brain has already concluded. It has already concluded the dress is white/gold, blue/black, or something else, and that's what it is telling us is there. But what is the TRUTH?

I'd appreciate it if you not butcher or edit my quotes from now on.

Maybe you're a forgetful poster. You already stated that the dress can't be both sets of colors, it's one or the other, and possibly neither. Did you not say that? You have already admitted there's not enough info, so we both came to the same conclusion. What you're unhappy about is the fact that I did not answer the question they way you wanted me to answer.

My quote..."No, that's not true. We both came to the same conclusion about the colors of the dress, both admitting we need more information due to shadows and lighting, both having access to the same information. (Google)

Now if you could do the same for the key...."

The dress can't be both sets of colors, it doesn't matter that I stated this, it's an immutable truth. Another truth is, you and I, along with any other human with the ability of sight, look at the dress and see color. We don't see an outline of the dress in neutral gray with a question mark. Our brains are not inconclusive as to the color, they see clearly the dress is white and gold, or black and blue, or something else and that is what our eyes have told our brain. It is our mind which overrides what our brain tells us.

You and I can both agree, there is not enough information to know the truth. Regardless, you see the dress as some color and so do I. Our opinion is based on what our eyes have told our brain. We have the same information, we both admit the truth is unknown, and our opinions can be different because our eyes see the evidence differently. And even though "physical evidence" of what our eyes see and tell the brain, our minds have the ability to disregard this evidence and consider other possibility.

Now, there is a big difference between the dress and the key. Most obviously, the key is a metaphor and not a physical dress we can all see. In order to draw an analogy between the dress and key, we have to imagine a viral internet image of a dress everyone is talking about, but some people see no dress at all. It's just an indiscernible image of muddled colors to you. The conclusion your brain has reached is, there is no dress and these people are delusional. Furthermore, you are devoutly determined not to let your mind override what your brain has told you to believe. You don't see a dress so you can't rationalize how someone else can.

 

[sealybobo]

.....Because I don't know where the key is......
All you have is an ancient book, full of weird, bizarre, and even creepy stories, passed down from one generation to the next.

it's not that creepy.....John3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God......hardly registers a single blip on the creep-o-meter.......

Well fuck it if we're condemned already. Lol

By the way yes whenever you quote the bible its creepy.

 

[Boss]

What is this faith crap? Faith has nothing to do with the damn colors of a dress. We both have access to the same info. We both know that due to the shade and lighting we cannot determine the color without more information.

Now that you're changing your story and admitting your brain has already come to a conclusion without knowing the facts, that's your problem. It sounds like you're doing the same thing with the key, as you are with the dress.

Your brain works the same as mine. When you looked at the dress, you saw it as some combination of colors, not question marks. You can refuse to divulge your perception and proclaim there is not enough information to conclude the truth, but we already agree on this. You still have a biased opinion (as do I) on what color the dress really is. This is based on our visual perception, even though we admit our perception can be wrong.

The truth is, the dress exists and has some combination of colors. Our faith is based on our opinion which is based on the information available. If you read a story today about the person who started the dress debate and they claim the dress is really white and gold, your faith may lead you to believe this is truth. However, if you read tomorrow that someone else has claimed credit for the dress photo, and they claim it's blue and black, you may question your faith.

I am sure that one of the great philosophers probably stated this much better than myself, but humans are unable to ever know truths. All we can aspire to do is have faith in what we believe are the truths.

 

[Carla_Danger]

No, that's not true. We both came to the same conclusion about the colors of the dress...

No, we didn't. You didn't say what color dress you saw. That was my question. You didn't reach a conclusion. If you did this with God, or "the key" in the example we are discussing, I wouldn't have a problem with that. It's okay to say you don't know, you don't have enough information.

My conclusion was, there is a true color of the dress and we don't know it. We can only have faith that we think we know. There are too many unknown and unknowable factors to draw a conclusion. Yet... our brain has already concluded. It has already concluded the dress is white/gold, blue/black, or something else, and that's what it is telling us is there. But what is the TRUTH?

I'd appreciate it if you not butcher or edit my quotes from now on.

Maybe you're a forgetful poster. You already stated that the dress can't be both sets of colors, it's one or the other, and possibly neither. Did you not say that? You have already admitted there's not enough info, so we both came to the same conclusion. What you're unhappy about is the fact that I did not answer the question they way you wanted me to answer.

My quote..."No, that's not true. We both came to the same conclusion about the colors of the dress, both admitting we need more information due to shadows and lighting, both having access to the same information. (Google)

Now if you could do the same for the key...."

The dress can't be both sets of colors, it doesn't matter that I stated this, it's an immutable truth. Another truth is, you and I, along with any other human with the ability of sight, look at the dress and see color. We don't see an outline of the dress in neutral gray with a question mark. Our brains are not inconclusive as to the color, they see clearly the dress is white and gold, or black and blue, or something else and that is what our eyes have told our brain. It is our mind which overrides what our brain tells us.

You and I can both agree, there is not enough information to know the truth. Regardless, you see the dress as some color and so do I. Our opinion is based on what our eyes have told our brain. We have the same information, we both admit the truth is unknown, and our opinions can be different because our eyes see the evidence differently. And even though "physical evidence" of what our eyes see and tell the brain, our minds have the ability to disregard this evidence and consider other possibility.

Now, there is a big difference between the dress and the key. Most obviously, the key is a metaphor and not a physical dress we can all see. In order to draw an analogy between the dress and key, we have to imagine a viral internet image of a dress everyone is talking about, but some people see no dress at all. It's just an indiscernible image of muddled colors to you. The conclusion your brain has reached is, there is no dress and these people are delusional. Furthermore, you are devoutly determined not to let your mind override what your brain has told you to believe. You don't see a dress so you can't rationalize how someone else can.

We both know that dresses exist. We have scientific proof. We could probably even trace the beginning of the dress to a sweat shop in the Philippines. We might disagree on the color of the dress, but there is no denying that dresses exist. We can see them, feel them, and even wear them.

Now this key to the magical gates of heaven is different, because no one has ever actually seen the key. There's no physical evidence that the key exists. You have faith that the key exists, but your faith doesn't trump reality.

 

[RandomVariable]

What is this faith crap? Faith has nothing to do with the damn colors of a dress. We both have access to the same info. We both know that due to the shade and lighting we cannot determine the color without more information.

Now that you're changing your story and admitting your brain has already come to a conclusion without knowing the facts, that's your problem. It sounds like you're doing the same thing with the key, as you are with the dress.

Your brain works the same as mine. When you looked at the dress, you saw it as some combination of colors, not question marks. You can refuse to divulge your perception and proclaim there is not enough information to conclude the truth, but we already agree on this. You still have a biased opinion (as do I) on what color the dress really is. This is based on our visual perception, even though we admit our perception can be wrong.

The truth is, the dress exists and has some combination of colors. Our faith is based on our opinion which is based on the information available. If you read a story today about the person who started the dress debate and they claim the dress is really white and gold, your faith may lead you to believe this is truth. However, if you read tomorrow that someone else has claimed credit for the dress photo, and they claim it's blue and black, you may question your faith.

I am sure that one of the great philosophers probably stated this much better than myself, but humans are unable to ever know truths. All we can aspire to do is have faith in what we believe are the truths.

Just buy a stupid spectrometer already!

 

[sealybobo]

What is this faith crap? Faith has nothing to do with the damn colors of a dress. We both have access to the same info. We both know that due to the shade and lighting we cannot determine the color without more information.

Now that you're changing your story and admitting your brain has already come to a conclusion without knowing the facts, that's your problem. It sounds like you're doing the same thing with the key, as you are with the dress.

Your brain works the same as mine. When you looked at the dress, you saw it as some combination of colors, not question marks. You can refuse to divulge your perception and proclaim there is not enough information to conclude the truth, but we already agree on this. You still have a biased opinion (as do I) on what color the dress really is. This is based on our visual perception, even though we admit our perception can be wrong.

The truth is, the dress exists and has some combination of colors. Our faith is based on our opinion which is based on the information available. If you read a story today about the person who started the dress debate and they claim the dress is really white and gold, your faith may lead you to believe this is truth. However, if you read tomorrow that someone else has claimed credit for the dress photo, and they claim it's blue and black, you may question your faith.

I am sure that one of the great philosophers probably stated this much better than myself, but humans are unable to ever know truths. All we can aspire to do is have faith in what we believe are the truths.

I have faith that the Abraham religions are all made up. Before they were invented people like us debated if gods existed. We see now that the arguments theists make are sketchy and flawed but still good enough for you all and that's fine with us. No harm in believing something must have created everything we see.

It was theists who ruined the debate by claiming they met god. I have faith they are liars. But I don't mind your generic god. All he asks is that you be good.

 

[Boss]

There's no physical evidence that the key exists. You have faith that the key exists, but your faith doesn't trump reality.

As we learned from the dress, physical evidence is not always reliable and doesn't always reveal the truth. We've also learned our perceptions of the physical evidence can differ greatly and we can hold completely different opinions.

You are absolutely correct, there is no physical evidence of spiritual things or those spiritual things would immediately become physical. No one has claimed that spiritual is physical.

Faith does trump reality. You can't see reality. It is impossible for humans to sense the present. Look at yourself in the mirror... that was you in the past. It took time for light to bounce off you, reflect in the mirror, go through your eyes, transmit signals from your optic nerve to brain and for your brain to register the signal and process the information. Everything you see is in the past, not a part of present reality.

You have faith that reality is happening because you see the past evidence of it.

 

[Boss]

What is this faith crap? Faith has nothing to do with the damn colors of a dress. We both have access to the same info. We both know that due to the shade and lighting we cannot determine the color without more information.

Now that you're changing your story and admitting your brain has already come to a conclusion without knowing the facts, that's your problem. It sounds like you're doing the same thing with the key, as you are with the dress.

Your brain works the same as mine. When you looked at the dress, you saw it as some combination of colors, not question marks. You can refuse to divulge your perception and proclaim there is not enough information to conclude the truth, but we already agree on this. You still have a biased opinion (as do I) on what color the dress really is. This is based on our visual perception, even though we admit our perception can be wrong.

The truth is, the dress exists and has some combination of colors. Our faith is based on our opinion which is based on the information available. If you read a story today about the person who started the dress debate and they claim the dress is really white and gold, your faith may lead you to believe this is truth. However, if you read tomorrow that someone else has claimed credit for the dress photo, and they claim it's blue and black, you may question your faith.

I am sure that one of the great philosophers probably stated this much better than myself, but humans are unable to ever know truths. All we can aspire to do is have faith in what we believe are the truths.

I have faith that the Abraham religions are all made up. Before they were invented people like us debated if gods existed. We see now that the arguments theists make are sketchy and flawed but still good enough for you all and that's fine with us. No harm in believing something must have created everything we see.

It was theists who ruined the debate by claiming they met god. I have faith they are liars. But I don't mind your generic god. All he asks is that you be good.

My God doesn't ask anything. Why would something omnipotent have to ask me for something? To me, God is a spiritual energy force. I have sometimes likened this to electricity... not because God=Electricity, but because electricity is an energy force most people can relate to. The electricity is there whether you can see it or not. If you need faith, you can stick a knife in the outlet and the evidence will be provided that electricity is there, even though you can't see it. The electricity doesn't "care" what you do. It's not demanding you use it properly or wisely... hell, you can strap someone into an electric chair and kill them for all it cares. Electricity has no feelings and emotions, it's not human. Now, it's not omnipotent so we've learned to tame it and control it, and you can utilize the electricity to your advantage, that's up to you. The electricity doesn't hate Mennonites and the Amish because they choose to live without it. It's not because the electricity became angry that it caused a fire and burned your house down, that was caused by you not respecting the power.

 

[Carla_Danger]

There's no physical evidence that the key exists. You have faith that the key exists, but your faith doesn't trump reality.

As we learned from the dress, physical evidence is not always reliable and doesn't always reveal the truth. We've also learned our perceptions of the physical evidence can differ greatly and we can hold completely different opinions.

You are absolutely correct, there is no physical evidence of spiritual things or those spiritual things would immediately become physical. No one has claimed that spiritual is physical.

Faith does trump reality. You can't see reality. It is impossible for humans to sense the present. Look at yourself in the mirror... that was you in the past. It took time for light to bounce off you, reflect in the mirror, go through your eyes, transmit signals from your optic nerve to brain and for your brain to register the signal and process the information. Everything you see is in the past, not a part of present reality.

You have faith that reality is happening because you see the past evidence of it.

That doesn't make a lick of sense.

 

[PostmodernProph]

.....Because I don't know where the key is......
All you have is an ancient book, full of weird, bizarre, and even creepy stories, passed down from one generation to the next.

it's not that creepy.....John3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God......hardly registers a single blip on the creep-o-meter.......

Well fuck it if we're condemned already. Lol

By the way yes whenever you quote the bible its creepy.

that then would be your choice....

 

[sealybobo]

What is this faith crap? Faith has nothing to do with the damn colors of a dress. We both have access to the same info. We both know that due to the shade and lighting we cannot determine the color without more information.

Now that you're changing your story and admitting your brain has already come to a conclusion without knowing the facts, that's your problem. It sounds like you're doing the same thing with the key, as you are with the dress.

Your brain works the same as mine. When you looked at the dress, you saw it as some combination of colors, not question marks. You can refuse to divulge your perception and proclaim there is not enough information to conclude the truth, but we already agree on this. You still have a biased opinion (as do I) on what color the dress really is. This is based on our visual perception, even though we admit our perception can be wrong.

The truth is, the dress exists and has some combination of colors. Our faith is based on our opinion which is based on the information available. If you read a story today about the person who started the dress debate and they claim the dress is really white and gold, your faith may lead you to believe this is truth. However, if you read tomorrow that someone else has claimed credit for the dress photo, and they claim it's blue and black, you may question your faith.

I am sure that one of the great philosophers probably stated this much better than myself, but humans are unable to ever know truths. All we can aspire to do is have faith in what we believe are the truths.

I have faith that the Abraham religions are all made up. Before they were invented people like us debated if gods existed. We see now that the arguments theists make are sketchy and flawed but still good enough for you all and that's fine with us. No harm in believing something must have created everything we see.

It was theists who ruined the debate by claiming they met god. I have faith they are liars. But I don't mind your generic god. All he asks is that you be good.

My God doesn't ask anything. Why would something omnipotent have to ask me for something? To me, God is a spiritual energy force. I have sometimes likened this to electricity... not because God=Electricity, but because electricity is an energy force most people can relate to. The electricity is there whether you can see it or not. If you need faith, you can stick a knife in the outlet and the evidence will be provided that electricity is there, even though you can't see it. The electricity doesn't "care" what you do. It's not demanding you use it properly or wisely... hell, you can strap someone into an electric chair and kill them for all it cares. Electricity has no feelings and emotions, it's not human. Now, it's not omnipotent so we've learned to tame it and control it, and you can utilize the electricity to your advantage, that's up to you. The electricity doesn't hate Mennonites and the Amish because they choose to live without it. It's not because the electricity became angry that it caused a fire and burned your house down, that was caused by you not respecting the power.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?” – Epicurus

So God doesn't hate me because I choose to live without him? And in your analogy, is god going to burn my house down figuratively speaking because I don't "respect" his power?