if a pregnant woman is attacked and her baby dies has murder been committed ??

[jknowgood]

No libs love women. Until the fetus is born its the women's choice so get over it, we're never going back. If a women doesn't want to have the child it's her decision. Until its born it is not an individual and has no rights and from my perspective as a "godless agnostic" it doesn't make any difference. The fetus has no conscience, no awareness and except in the case of the rare late term abortion no feelings (most of those take place because the fetus is badly damaged in some way).
I'm sure there will be many who disagree but they have no proof of a god who will judge us in "the afterlife".
Birth is the demarcation of right to life.

There is a special place in hell for you.

 

[Faun]

As far as kidnapping and torture; we, as a society, have decided they should be outlawed.

And yet our government does these very things.

Should we simply shrug our shoulders, as you implied earlier? What do you do if the law is wrong or the State takes immoral action?

Are you a Moralist or a Statist? Do you follow your conscience or the Senate? What is more important, the laws of man or those of your own morality? Do you make any effort to change the laws or simply say that 'society' has chosen?

Buck v. Bell is still on the books and US federal law still allows for forced sterilization if any member state chooses to institute such measures once again at any time. Roe v. wade, despite being built on perjury, is on the books. Are those who disagree with it for moral reasons wrong for wanting to change the laws any more than those on the other side are wrong for trying to change the laws to suit their own beliefs and aims?

What irks me, personally, is that the pro-abortion side can never be honest. In every abortion thread, they [as a group] insist they started as some other species and magically transformed into a human at some point in time.

I believe we make the law collectively as a society and we follow it as a society, not as individuals who want the law to work the way it works best for them, especially when they are in the minority. Label that however you wish.

 

[Faun]

No libs love women. Until the fetus is born its the women's choice so get over it, we're never going back. If a women doesn't want to have the child it's her decision. Until its born it is not an individual and has no rights and from my perspective as a "godless agnostic" it doesn't make any difference. The fetus has no conscience, no awareness and except in the case of the rare late term abortion no feelings (most of those take place because the fetus is badly damaged in some way).
I'm sure there will be many who disagree but they have no proof of a god who will judge us in "the afterlife".
Birth is the demarcation of right to life.

There is a special place in hell for you.

Nice to see you speak for God.

 

[varelse]

What I find interesting is that Noomi said she'd opt for infanticide, not a first-trimester abortion after an ultrasound revealed the twins to be conjoined...

As far as kidnapping and torture; we, as a society, have decided they should be outlawed.

And yet our government does these very things.

Should we simply shrug our shoulders, as you implied earlier? What do you do if the law is wrong or the State takes immoral action?

Are you a Moralist or a Statist? Do you follow your conscience or the Senate? What is more important, the laws of man or those of your own morality? Do you make any effort to change the laws or simply say that 'society' has chosen?

Buck v. Bell is still on the books and US federal law still allows for forced sterilization if any member state chooses to institute such measures once again at any time. Roe v. wade, despite being built on perjury, is on the books. Are those who disagree with it for moral reasons wrong for wanting to change the laws any more than those on the other side are wrong for trying to change the laws to suit their own beliefs and aims?

What irks me, personally, is that the pro-abortion side can never be honest. In every abortion thread, they [as a group] insist they started as some other species and magically transformed into a human at some point in time.

I believe we make the law collectively as a society and we follow it as a society, not as individuals who want the law to work the way it works best for them, especially when they are in the minority. Label that however you wish.

So the freedom riders, civil rights marchers, abolitionists, the underground railroad, Ghandi, and the Founding Fathers should have all just shut up, say down, and obeyed the law?

 

[Faun]

What I find interesting is that Noomi said she'd opt for infanticide, not a first-trimester abortion after an ultrasound revealed the twins to be conjoined...

And yet our government does these very things.

Should we simply shrug our shoulders, as you implied earlier? What do you do if the law is wrong or the State takes immoral action?

Are you a Moralist or a Statist? Do you follow your conscience or the Senate? What is more important, the laws of man or those of your own morality? Do you make any effort to change the laws or simply say that 'society' has chosen?

Buck v. Bell is still on the books and US federal law still allows for forced sterilization if any member state chooses to institute such measures once again at any time. Roe v. wade, despite being built on perjury, is on the books. Are those who disagree with it for moral reasons wrong for wanting to change the laws any more than those on the other side are wrong for trying to change the laws to suit their own beliefs and aims?

What irks me, personally, is that the pro-abortion side can never be honest. In every abortion thread, they [as a group] insist they started as some other species and magically transformed into a human at some point in time.

I believe we make the law collectively as a society and we follow it as a society, not as individuals who want the law to work the way it works best for them, especially when they are in the minority. Label that however you wish.

So the freedom riders, civil rights marchers, abolitionists, the underground railroad, Ghandi, and the Founding Fathers should have all just shut up, say down, and obeyed the law?

Never said that either. If you don't like the law, try and have it changed. There's nothing wrong with that. That's one of the greatnesses of America.

However, when it comes to abortion, there doesn't appear to be enough support to ban it. Even Republicans, when they controlled the House, Senate, and Executive branch, never even tried to overturn Roe v. Wade.

Why?

Because they know that issue drives their base to the polls and they're not about to relinquish that wedge issue.

 

[varelse]

If you don't like the law, try and have it changed.

Exactly what people are trying to do, yet that's not what you were just saying earlier in this thread.

 

[Faun]

If you don't like the law, try and have it changed.

Exactly what people are trying to do, yet that's not what you were just saying earlier in this thread.

I don't believe my view has changed at all. I stated that we, as a society, decide on what the law should be. That certainly doesn't preclude changing the laws we, as a society, don't like.

 

[varelse]

I believe we make the law collectively as a society and we follow it as a society, not as individuals who want the law to work the way it works best for them, especially when they are in the minority. Label that however you wish.

That precludes the actions of the Founding Fathers (a minority), the Freedom Riders, and others

 

[Faun]

I believe we make the law collectively as a society and we follow it as a society, not as individuals who want the law to work the way it works best for them, especially when they are in the minority. Label that however you wish.

That precludes the actions of the Founding Fathers (a minority), the Freedom Riders, and others

You confuse giving the minority a voice with allowing the minority to dictate the laws of the nation.

 

[varelse]

The minority always does dictate the laws to the nation. This nation was founded on a minority of landed white males governing over everyone- from forming a 'nation' to drafting and passing a constitution and determining who was eligible to vote or hold office under this new system.

 

[Faun]

The minority always does dictate the laws to the nation. This nation was founded on a minority of landed white males governing over everyone- from forming a 'nation' to drafting and passing a constitution and determining who was eligible to vote or hold office under this new system.

No, the minority does not dictate the laws; nor does the system support any such notion. Ours is a system where the majority rules.

The majority party controls all of the chairs.

And a majority vote is required to pass legislation. Depending on the circumstance, sometimes a super majority.

But the majority rules.

Now then, do not confuse that with the minority has no say. The minority does have a voice. Theirs is the voice of dissent. The minority can block legislation from passing, but they cannot, by design, dictate what legislation gets passed.

 

[varelse]

The minority always does dictate the laws to the nation. This nation was founded on a minority of landed white males governing over everyone- from forming a 'nation' to drafting and passing a constitution and determining who was eligible to vote or hold office under this new system.

No, the minority does not dictate the laws; nor does the system support any such notion. Ours is a system where the majority rules.

The majority only gained suffrage recently in history. The history chooses from among the options the elite provide and even then their vote isn't even guaranteed to [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Loser-Take-All-Subversion-Democracy/dp/0978843142"]be counted[/ame]. Also, the system isn't even intended to be a democracy, but a republic, in which the wishes of the majority weigh less than the rights of the individual.

And a majority vote is required to pass legislation. Depending on the circumstance, sometimes a super majority.

But the majority rules.

A majority of the small number of persons in the congress

 

[Faun]

The minority always does dictate the laws to the nation. This nation was founded on a minority of landed white males governing over everyone- from forming a 'nation' to drafting and passing a constitution and determining who was eligible to vote or hold office under this new system.

No, the minority does not dictate the laws; nor does the system support any such notion. Ours is a system where the majority rules.

The majority only gained suffrage recently in history. The history chooses from among the options the elite provide and even then their vote isn't even guaranteed to [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Loser-Take-All-Subversion-Democracy/dp/0978843142"]be counted[/ame]. Also, the system isn't even intended to be a democracy, but a republic, in which the wishes of the majority weigh less than the rights of the individual.

We're a collection of representative democracies forming a constitutional republic.

Majority rules.

The majority of electoral votes determines the president.

The majority of electoral votes determines the president of the Senate.

The majority in the House determines the House Speaker.

The majority party in the House determines the House majority leader.

I could go on but you get the picture.

Majority rules.

And a majority vote is required to pass legislation. Depending on the circumstance, sometimes a super majority.

But the majority rules.

A majority of the small number of persons in the congress

Who represent "we the people." It's still a majority rule.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Abortion is not murder. Get it through your head.



I would have terminated them both at birth. They are a monstrosity and shouldn't have been born in the first place. If there is a God, he fucked up badly.

You, "would have terminated them at birth"?

Wow....It's quite rare to see someone actually admit they would cold bloodedly murder another human being......You truly are a very sick in the head individual.

Mercy killing. Its allowed in some countries.

In this great country, you would find your ass facing a first degree murder charge, possibly two, and rightfully so.

In many states, you would find your ass facing the death penalty, and rightfully so.

 

[Noomi]

You, "would have terminated them at birth"?

Wow....It's quite rare to see someone actually admit they would cold bloodedly murder another human being......You truly are a very sick in the head individual.

Mercy killing. Its allowed in some countries.

In this great country, you would find your ass facing a first degree murder charge, possibly two, and rightfully so.

In many states, you would find your ass facing the death penalty, and rightfully so.

I don't live in your shitty country, so there goes your argument.

In some countries, mercy killings are legal.

 

[Wicked Jester]

Mercy killing. Its allowed in some countries.

In this great country, you would find your ass facing a first degree murder charge, possibly two, and rightfully so.

In many states, you would find your ass facing the death penalty, and rightfully so.

I don't live in your shitty country, so there goes your argument.

In some countries, mercy killings are legal.

Good!......We've got enough self loathing, miserable people in this country.....They're called liberals, and are the biggest scurge on our society.....Please, STAY HOME!

 

[Noomi]

In this great country, you would find your ass facing a first degree murder charge, possibly two, and rightfully so.

In many states, you would find your ass facing the death penalty, and rightfully so.

I don't live in your shitty country, so there goes your argument.

In some countries, mercy killings are legal.

Good!......We've got enough self loathing, miserable people in this country.....They're called liberals, and are the biggest scurge on our society.....Please, STAY HOME!

I will, don't worry about that. I might get shot by a gun crazed lunatic if I came to the US.

 

[Wicked Jester]

I don't live in your shitty country, so there goes your argument.

In some countries, mercy killings are legal.

Good!......We've got enough self loathing, miserable people in this country.....They're called liberals, and are the biggest scurge on our society.....Please, STAY HOME!

I will, don't worry about that. I might get shot by a gun crazed lunatic if I came to the US.

And, you might get beaten, robbed, raped, and strangled by some typical toothless aussie goon, who you could have easily shot had you had the means to protect yourself.

 

[AmyNation]

Mercy killing. Its allowed in some countries.

In this great country, you would find your ass facing a first degree murder charge, possibly two, and rightfully so.

In many states, you would find your ass facing the death penalty, and rightfully so.

I don't live in your shitty country, so there goes your argument.

In some countries, mercy killings are legal.

Name a country where its legal to kill your child after birth due to a birth defect.

 

[varelse]

Mercy killing. Its allowed in some countries.

In this great country, you would find your ass facing a first degree murder charge, possibly two, and rightfully so.

In many states, you would find your ass facing the death penalty, and rightfully so.

I don't live in your shitty country, so there goes your argument.

In some countries, mercy killings are legal.

You should write them and offer your 'mercy'. I wonder what response you'll get...