If all the cars in the US were EV's how much load would that put on the grid?

[Old Rocks]

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

What you chart shows is that Texas could cover the electric demand with gas and coal only ... as wind is unreliable ... what you're claiming is that Texas gas suppliers ran their reserves to empty just before a massive polar front moved over the State ... do you have a citation or are you just guessing? ... and please refer to your claim in post #81 that you didn't know what happened ...

The Texas grid doesn't collapse every time the wind stops blowing (c.f. Jan 20th, Jan 23rd, Feb 1st) ... so the natural gas pipeline system can handle all the demand put on it ... something went wrong with the pipeline system ... and now we're laughing at Texas, an energy rich State can't keep her heaters on ... HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW ...

Bubba didn't finish Middle School ...

No. What I am surmising is that the electrical providers counted on wind remaining online and did not contract with the gas marketers for gas to cover the increased generation needed because wind went down. They eventually got the gas to run the plants. It just took a little while to get enough.

The gas fired plants were already there. They just weren't running at full capacity because they were generating power from the wind turbines. Gas fired plants have essentially become swing generators. AND the electrical providers didn't plan for needing that swing because they did not anticipate or plan for the wind turbines going off line.

About 30% more, and if we had the growth rate from 1960 to 2000, that would take about 6.5 years;

Not that simple. Your neighborhood electrical system may not have been designed to move that many extra electrons into every home, particularly when most people would be charging simultaneously. You would have to have a practical way to keep everybody charged without overloading any part of the system. In addition, most older homes do not have garages and most household seem to have multiple cars so you would have to deal with those practicalities as well. Sure these things can be sorted in time, but they won't be sorted in the 10 years we alleged have left to turn to the tide. Hell, a lot of these problems won't be sorted in ten decades.

How many electrons does a residential house with 3k square feet use?

We have 5 computers, central air, and 3 portable ac's in our house and we test the limits of our circuit. Add a heater to the mix and circuits blow. No way we could afford to add a car charger.

The government and the environazis don't care. You will be assimilated. Never mind that no one has actually thought through what it's called when the government controls markets. [cough com cough munism]

And we know how well that has worked in the past.

The government and the environazis don't care. You will be assimilated. Never mind that no one has actually thought through what it's called when the government controls markets. [cough com cough munism] ... And we know how well that has worked in the past.

Do you have a choice of electric companies where you live? ... that's unusual, typically it's the government who decides which electric company we get power from ... and if we don't like it, we don't get electric power to our homes ...

When I lived up in Oregon ... we got our power from the US Army Corps of Engineers' Bonneville Power Administration, and the US Army is generally considered a government agency ... and they also own the main trunk lines that run down through Oregon, Jefferson, all the way to South California ... and having a local government agency handle retail distribution was common enough: for example the Eugene Water and Electric Board or the Springfield Utility Board ...

The kicker is that it's strictly illegal to get electric power from any other source ... pure socialism ... government has exclusive ownership of everything electric from river to weatherhead ... I'm paying 6.3¢ per kW-hr ... what are you paying? ... without dividends to pay, they can use maintenance money for maintenance ... they'll drive right onto our property and start cutting down trees, whether we like it or not ...

... or use the Texas system ... little chilly weather and the whole damn grid fails ... woot ... but I'll bet share prices are still healthy ... "profit before people" ... Lord have mercy, it would cut profits by entire tenth's of cents to install a few heaters ...

We can choose the provider but not the transportation company. That's pretty cheap. Our unit cost is somewhere around 9 to 12 cents per KWH. Cheaper than a lot of place - I would imagine - just because of the large quantities we consume (i.e. economy of scale), but nothing like what you are paying. That's a good price.

As for the root cause of our problems this February, I don't think we have gotten the real story and probably never will. I think they got caught with their pants down and did not have enough contractual gas to make up the difference when wind started going off line. I say that because spot prices soared. If their issue was mechanical then there wouldn't have been an impact on natural gas prices at all as the needed volume would have already been under contract.

Freeze-offs caused the problems in Texas this past winter, water in the pipeline solidifying and blocking flow ... "Texas' Natural Gas Production Just Froze under Pressure" -- The Verge -- Feb 17th, 2021 ...

I don't know where you're storing this gas, but if the pipeline is blocked, then it's not going to get to the power plant ...

Texas just replaced California as the laughing stock of the world ...

I'm not buying it. Pretty sparse details there. I don't trust them to tell the truth. They make it sound like the generating plants are hooked up to a fields which just isn't the case. They get their gas from pipelines. Pipelines have water specs. I suspect gas production was at max rate to take advantage of the higher prices because everyone was heating their homes. Texas is a huge gas producer and close to Henry Hub which is the hub for all of the gas from GoM. No way natural gas supply was limited.

And we are supposed to believe that Texas power generating was the only thing affected by wells freezing up? C'mon man.

They got caught not having gas purchased to offset the loss of wind energy that went off line. That's what happened.

Get some facts;

 

[ReinyDays]

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

In Oregon we get more power from renewables than from gas, coal, and nuclear combined.

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

Two points here:

1. Oregon is not Texas.

2. "In 2019, 49% of Oregon's utility-scale electricity net generation came from hydroelectric power, and 62% came from conventional hydroelectric power plants and other renewable energy resources combined."

Are you saying environmentalists would support new hydroelectric dams being built? Because -- they wouldn't.

Oregon is actively trying to tear out dams ... the ones not worthy for the new technologies ... the power is surplus and so unnecessary to Oregon's electric demand ... BPA's facilities also provide for navigation up and down the Columbia River, so those dams aren't going anywhere, and they get all the latest technology and equipment ...

No one supports building more dams, we have all that we need already ... land to build homes on is what's in dreadfully short supply ...

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

What you chart shows is that Texas could cover the electric demand with gas and coal only ... as wind is unreliable ... what you're claiming is that Texas gas suppliers ran their reserves to empty just before a massive polar front moved over the State ... do you have a citation or are you just guessing? ... and please refer to your claim in post #81 that you didn't know what happened ...

The Texas grid doesn't collapse every time the wind stops blowing (c.f. Jan 20th, Jan 23rd, Feb 1st) ... so the natural gas pipeline system can handle all the demand put on it ... something went wrong with the pipeline system ... and now we're laughing at Texas, an energy rich State can't keep her heaters on ... HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW ...

Bubba didn't finish Middle School ...

No. What I am surmising is that the electrical providers counted on wind remaining online and did not contract with the gas marketers for gas to cover the increased generation needed because wind went down. They eventually got the gas to run the plants. It just took a little while to get enough.

The gas fired plants were already there. They just weren't running at full capacity because they were generating power from the wind turbines. Gas fired plants have essentially become swing generators. AND the electrical providers didn't plan for needing that swing because they did not anticipate or plan for the wind turbines going off line.

Horsefeathers ... the graph you posted clearly shows wind going offline .. and gas kicking in to cover the load ... why doesn't the grid go off-line then? ...

"... electrical providers counted on wind ..."

Are you serious? ... why are you letting Bubba make these decisions? ...

First ... explain to me in simple terms why it's physically impossible for freeze-offs to occur in Texas in cold weather ... something that's a fairly common problem in North Dakota ... I respect your opinion on The Verge, but I've been reading this elsewhere and The Verge was the first hit on a google search ...

What you want us to believe is that the Texas governor is too stupid to order those gas valves turned on ... yeah, right ... okay boomer ...

 

[ding]

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

In Oregon we get more power from renewables than from gas, coal, and nuclear combined.

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

Two points here:

1. Oregon is not Texas.

2. "In 2019, 49% of Oregon's utility-scale electricity net generation came from hydroelectric power, and 62% came from conventional hydroelectric power plants and other renewable energy resources combined."

Are you saying environmentalists would support new hydroelectric dams being built? Because -- they wouldn't.

Oregon is actively trying to tear out dams ... the ones not worthy for the new technologies ... the power is surplus and so unnecessary to Oregon's electric demand ... BPA's facilities also provide for navigation up and down the Columbia River, so those dams aren't going anywhere, and they get all the latest technology and equipment ...

No one supports building more dams, we have all that we need already ... land to build homes on is what's in dreadfully short supply ...

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

What you chart shows is that Texas could cover the electric demand with gas and coal only ... as wind is unreliable ... what you're claiming is that Texas gas suppliers ran their reserves to empty just before a massive polar front moved over the State ... do you have a citation or are you just guessing? ... and please refer to your claim in post #81 that you didn't know what happened ...

The Texas grid doesn't collapse every time the wind stops blowing (c.f. Jan 20th, Jan 23rd, Feb 1st) ... so the natural gas pipeline system can handle all the demand put on it ... something went wrong with the pipeline system ... and now we're laughing at Texas, an energy rich State can't keep her heaters on ... HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW ...

Bubba didn't finish Middle School ...

No. What I am surmising is that the electrical providers counted on wind remaining online and did not contract with the gas marketers for gas to cover the increased generation needed because wind went down. They eventually got the gas to run the plants. It just took a little while to get enough.

The gas fired plants were already there. They just weren't running at full capacity because they were generating power from the wind turbines. Gas fired plants have essentially become swing generators. AND the electrical providers didn't plan for needing that swing because they did not anticipate or plan for the wind turbines going off line.

Horsefeathers ... the graph you posted clearly shows wind going offline .. and gas kicking in to cover the load ... why doesn't the grid go off-line then? ...

"... electrical providers counted on wind ..."

Are you serious? ... why are you letting Bubba make these decisions? ...

First ... explain to me in simple terms why it's physically impossible for freeze-offs to occur in Texas in cold weather ... something that's a fairly common problem in North Dakota ... I respect your opinion on The Verge, but I've been reading this elsewhere and The Verge was the first hit on a google search ...

What you want us to believe is that the Texas governor is too stupid to order those gas valves turned on ... yeah, right ... okay boomer ...

Horsefeathers ... the graph you posted clearly shows wind going offline .. and gas kicking in to cover the load ...

That's what I said. Go back and re-read what I wrote.

why doesn't the grid go off-line then? ...
It did. At least the amount needed to avoid an overload. They were supposed to roll the blackouts but they didn't do that the first 36 hours. The Y axis shows the percentage supplied by type not KWH so you can't see the lower load on that graph.

 

[ding]

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

What you chart shows is that Texas could cover the electric demand with gas and coal only ... as wind is unreliable ... what you're claiming is that Texas gas suppliers ran their reserves to empty just before a massive polar front moved over the State ... do you have a citation or are you just guessing? ... and please refer to your claim in post #81 that you didn't know what happened ...

The Texas grid doesn't collapse every time the wind stops blowing (c.f. Jan 20th, Jan 23rd, Feb 1st) ... so the natural gas pipeline system can handle all the demand put on it ... something went wrong with the pipeline system ... and now we're laughing at Texas, an energy rich State can't keep her heaters on ... HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW ...

Bubba didn't finish Middle School ...

No. What I am surmising is that the electrical providers counted on wind remaining online and did not contract with the gas marketers for gas to cover the increased generation needed because wind went down. They eventually got the gas to run the plants. It just took a little while to get enough.

The gas fired plants were already there. They just weren't running at full capacity because they were generating power from the wind turbines. Gas fired plants have essentially become swing generators. AND the electrical providers didn't plan for needing that swing because they did not anticipate or plan for the wind turbines going off line.

About 30% more, and if we had the growth rate from 1960 to 2000, that would take about 6.5 years;

Not that simple. Your neighborhood electrical system may not have been designed to move that many extra electrons into every home, particularly when most people would be charging simultaneously. You would have to have a practical way to keep everybody charged without overloading any part of the system. In addition, most older homes do not have garages and most household seem to have multiple cars so you would have to deal with those practicalities as well. Sure these things can be sorted in time, but they won't be sorted in the 10 years we alleged have left to turn to the tide. Hell, a lot of these problems won't be sorted in ten decades.

How many electrons does a residential house with 3k square feet use?

We have 5 computers, central air, and 3 portable ac's in our house and we test the limits of our circuit. Add a heater to the mix and circuits blow. No way we could afford to add a car charger.

The government and the environazis don't care. You will be assimilated. Never mind that no one has actually thought through what it's called when the government controls markets. [cough com cough munism]

And we know how well that has worked in the past.

The government and the environazis don't care. You will be assimilated. Never mind that no one has actually thought through what it's called when the government controls markets. [cough com cough munism] ... And we know how well that has worked in the past.

Do you have a choice of electric companies where you live? ... that's unusual, typically it's the government who decides which electric company we get power from ... and if we don't like it, we don't get electric power to our homes ...

When I lived up in Oregon ... we got our power from the US Army Corps of Engineers' Bonneville Power Administration, and the US Army is generally considered a government agency ... and they also own the main trunk lines that run down through Oregon, Jefferson, all the way to South California ... and having a local government agency handle retail distribution was common enough: for example the Eugene Water and Electric Board or the Springfield Utility Board ...

The kicker is that it's strictly illegal to get electric power from any other source ... pure socialism ... government has exclusive ownership of everything electric from river to weatherhead ... I'm paying 6.3¢ per kW-hr ... what are you paying? ... without dividends to pay, they can use maintenance money for maintenance ... they'll drive right onto our property and start cutting down trees, whether we like it or not ...

... or use the Texas system ... little chilly weather and the whole damn grid fails ... woot ... but I'll bet share prices are still healthy ... "profit before people" ... Lord have mercy, it would cut profits by entire tenth's of cents to install a few heaters ...

We can choose the provider but not the transportation company. That's pretty cheap. Our unit cost is somewhere around 9 to 12 cents per KWH. Cheaper than a lot of place - I would imagine - just because of the large quantities we consume (i.e. economy of scale), but nothing like what you are paying. That's a good price.

As for the root cause of our problems this February, I don't think we have gotten the real story and probably never will. I think they got caught with their pants down and did not have enough contractual gas to make up the difference when wind started going off line. I say that because spot prices soared. If their issue was mechanical then there wouldn't have been an impact on natural gas prices at all as the needed volume would have already been under contract.

Freeze-offs caused the problems in Texas this past winter, water in the pipeline solidifying and blocking flow ... "Texas' Natural Gas Production Just Froze under Pressure" -- The Verge -- Feb 17th, 2021 ...

I don't know where you're storing this gas, but if the pipeline is blocked, then it's not going to get to the power plant ...

Texas just replaced California as the laughing stock of the world ...

I'm not buying it. Pretty sparse details there. I don't trust them to tell the truth. They make it sound like the generating plants are hooked up to a fields which just isn't the case. They get their gas from pipelines. Pipelines have water specs. I suspect gas production was at max rate to take advantage of the higher prices because everyone was heating their homes. Texas is a huge gas producer and close to Henry Hub which is the hub for all of the gas from GoM. No way natural gas supply was limited.

And we are supposed to believe that Texas power generating was the only thing affected by wells freezing up? C'mon man.

They got caught not having gas purchased to offset the loss of wind energy that went off line. That's what happened.

Get some facts;

I just showed you the data from ercot, dude.

 

[daveman]

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

What you chart shows is that Texas could cover the electric demand with gas and coal only ... as wind is unreliable ... what you're claiming is that Texas gas suppliers ran their reserves to empty just before a massive polar front moved over the State ... do you have a citation or are you just guessing? ... and please refer to your claim in post #81 that you didn't know what happened ...

The Texas grid doesn't collapse every time the wind stops blowing (c.f. Jan 20th, Jan 23rd, Feb 1st) ... so the natural gas pipeline system can handle all the demand put on it ... something went wrong with the pipeline system ... and now we're laughing at Texas, an energy rich State can't keep her heaters on ... HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW ...

Bubba didn't finish Middle School ...

No. What I am surmising is that the electrical providers counted on wind remaining online and did not contract with the gas marketers for gas to cover the increased generation needed because wind went down. They eventually got the gas to run the plants. It just took a little while to get enough.

The gas fired plants were already there. They just weren't running at full capacity because they were generating power from the wind turbines. Gas fired plants have essentially become swing generators. AND the electrical providers didn't plan for needing that swing because they did not anticipate or plan for the wind turbines going off line.

Renewable’s defenders retort that Texas’ wind resource is “reliably unreliable.” Translation: It can’t be counted on when it’s needed most. The state has spent tens of billions of dollars on wind turbines that don’t work when millions of people desperately need electricity. As the cold weather has gotten worse, half the state’s wind generation has sat frozen and immobile. Where wind provided 42% of the state’s electricity on Feb. 7, it fell to 8% on Feb.11.

The Texas power outage was inevitable​

Unsurprisingly, the failure of wind has sparked a competing narrative that fossil fuel plants were the real cause of power outages. This claim can be quickly dispelled with a look at data from ERCOT, the state’s electricity regulator. Even though the extreme cold had frozen cooling systems on coal plants and natural gas pipelines, the state’s coal plants still upped their output by 47% in response to increasing demand. Natural gas plants across the state increased their output by an amazing 450%. Fossil fuels have done yeoman’s work to make up for wind’s reliable unreliability.

Sadly, even these herculean efforts weren’t enough. The loss of wind has been compounded by the loss of some natural gas and coal generation, and one nuclear reactor, which experienced a cold-related safety issue and shut down. Things are improving, but rolling power outages are still impacting millions. Had the state invested more heavily in nuclear plants instead of pushing wind power, Texans would have ample, reliable, safe, emission-free electricity powering their lives through the cold. Instead, over 20 have died.

Texas blackouts warning to Biden and all of us: Renewables do play a role in grid problems

Common-sense has already lost to political considerations — and people across Texas and the Great Plains are paying the price.

www.usatoday.com

 

[daveman]

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

In Oregon we get more power from renewables than from gas, coal, and nuclear combined.

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

Two points here:

1. Oregon is not Texas.

2. "In 2019, 49% of Oregon's utility-scale electricity net generation came from hydroelectric power, and 62% came from conventional hydroelectric power plants and other renewable energy resources combined."

Are you saying environmentalists would support new hydroelectric dams being built? Because -- they wouldn't.

Wonderful!!!! We used 111% of the electricity that we used. LOL!!! No, we are not Texas. But there is more potential for wind and solar in Texas than in Oregon. Enough so that they would never need nuclear or fossil fuels if they took advantage of only a small part of it. Oregon also has vast amounts of renewable potential in comparison to it's population, especially in the south eastern part of Oregon.

I repeat:

Are you saying environmentalists would support new hydroelectric dams being built? Because -- they wouldn't.

 

[daveman]

Upgrading public streets to be more EV friendly could help reduce accidents and improve commute times.

What is an EV friendly public street?

Something analogous to slot cars. Sensors could be placed in the roadways to help EVs navigate better and potentially draw power from that "grid" as well.

Ahhh. How much would that cost?

How much does a first world economy cost?

 

[daveman]

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

In Oregon we get more power from renewables than from gas, coal, and nuclear combined.

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

Two points here:

1. Oregon is not Texas.

2. "In 2019, 49% of Oregon's utility-scale electricity net generation came from hydroelectric power, and 62% came from conventional hydroelectric power plants and other renewable energy resources combined."

Are you saying environmentalists would support new hydroelectric dams being built? Because -- they wouldn't.

Oregon is actively trying to tear out dams ... the ones not worthy for the new technologies ... the power is surplus and so unnecessary to Oregon's electric demand ... BPA's facilities also provide for navigation up and down the Columbia River, so those dams aren't going anywhere, and they get all the latest technology and equipment ...

No one supports building more dams, we have all that we need already ... land to build homes on is what's in dreadfully short supply ...

"...the ones not worthy for the new technologies..."

What does that mean?

 

[danielpalos]

Upgrading public streets to be more EV friendly could help reduce accidents and improve commute times.

What is an EV friendly public street?

Something analogous to slot cars. Sensors could be placed in the roadways to help EVs navigate better and potentially draw power from that "grid" as well.

Ahhh. How much would that cost?

How much does a first world economy cost?

Our welfare clause is General not limited or common. Promoting and providing for the general welfare is in our federal Constitution. And, we have a Commerce Clause in particular that implies Capitalism and market based economics.

New Cities in more optimal locations can render our economy more efficient and the latest in infrastructure development could enable the public sector to generate revenue from the physical layer.

Any good plan that can generate some revenue will do.

 

[daveman]

Upgrading public streets to be more EV friendly could help reduce accidents and improve commute times.

What is an EV friendly public street?

Something analogous to slot cars. Sensors could be placed in the roadways to help EVs navigate better and potentially draw power from that "grid" as well.

Ahhh. How much would that cost?

How much does a first world economy cost?

Our welfare clause is General not limited or common. Promoting and providing for the general welfare is in our federal Constitution. And, we have a Commerce Clause in particular that implies Capitalism and market based economics.

New Cities in more optimal locations can render our economy more efficient and the latest in infrastructure development could enable the public sector to generate revenue from the physical layer.

Any good plan that can generate some revenue will do.

So, not only do you want to trench every single lane of every road and street -- you want to build entirely new cities.

So you have no answers to Dr. Sowell's questions.

 

[danielpalos]

Upgrading public streets to be more EV friendly could help reduce accidents and improve commute times.

What is an EV friendly public street?

Something analogous to slot cars. Sensors could be placed in the roadways to help EVs navigate better and potentially draw power from that "grid" as well.

Ahhh. How much would that cost?

How much does a first world economy cost?

Our welfare clause is General not limited or common. Promoting and providing for the general welfare is in our federal Constitution. And, we have a Commerce Clause in particular that implies Capitalism and market based economics.

New Cities in more optimal locations can render our economy more efficient and the latest in infrastructure development could enable the public sector to generate revenue from the physical layer.

Any good plan that can generate some revenue will do.

So, not only do you want to trench every single lane of every road and street -- you want to build entirely new cities.

So you have no answers to Dr. Sowell's questions.

Those were answers. Upgrading infrastructure can mean advancing automotive ai sensors as well.

 

[daveman]

Upgrading public streets to be more EV friendly could help reduce accidents and improve commute times.

What is an EV friendly public street?

Something analogous to slot cars. Sensors could be placed in the roadways to help EVs navigate better and potentially draw power from that "grid" as well.

Ahhh. How much would that cost?

How much does a first world economy cost?

Our welfare clause is General not limited or common. Promoting and providing for the general welfare is in our federal Constitution. And, we have a Commerce Clause in particular that implies Capitalism and market based economics.

New Cities in more optimal locations can render our economy more efficient and the latest in infrastructure development could enable the public sector to generate revenue from the physical layer.

Any good plan that can generate some revenue will do.

So, not only do you want to trench every single lane of every road and street -- you want to build entirely new cities.

So you have no answers to Dr. Sowell's questions.

Those were answers. Upgrading infrastructure can mean advancing automotive ai sensors as well.

Those were platitudes, not answers.

 

[danielpalos]

Upgrading public streets to be more EV friendly could help reduce accidents and improve commute times.

What is an EV friendly public street?

Something analogous to slot cars. Sensors could be placed in the roadways to help EVs navigate better and potentially draw power from that "grid" as well.

Ahhh. How much would that cost?

How much does a first world economy cost?

Our welfare clause is General not limited or common. Promoting and providing for the general welfare is in our federal Constitution. And, we have a Commerce Clause in particular that implies Capitalism and market based economics.

New Cities in more optimal locations can render our economy more efficient and the latest in infrastructure development could enable the public sector to generate revenue from the physical layer.

Any good plan that can generate some revenue will do.

So, not only do you want to trench every single lane of every road and street -- you want to build entirely new cities.

So you have no answers to Dr. Sowell's questions.

Those were answers. Upgrading infrastructure can mean advancing automotive ai sensors as well.

Those were platitudes, not answers.

Not at all. New Cities in more optimal locations is one answer to this dilemma:

 

[ReinyDays]

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

In Oregon we get more power from renewables than from gas, coal, and nuclear combined.

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

Two points here:

1. Oregon is not Texas.

2. "In 2019, 49% of Oregon's utility-scale electricity net generation came from hydroelectric power, and 62% came from conventional hydroelectric power plants and other renewable energy resources combined."

Are you saying environmentalists would support new hydroelectric dams being built? Because -- they wouldn't.

Oregon is actively trying to tear out dams ... the ones not worthy for the new technologies ... the power is surplus and so unnecessary to Oregon's electric demand ... BPA's facilities also provide for navigation up and down the Columbia River, so those dams aren't going anywhere, and they get all the latest technology and equipment ...

No one supports building more dams, we have all that we need already ... land to build homes on is what's in dreadfully short supply ...

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

What you chart shows is that Texas could cover the electric demand with gas and coal only ... as wind is unreliable ... what you're claiming is that Texas gas suppliers ran their reserves to empty just before a massive polar front moved over the State ... do you have a citation or are you just guessing? ... and please refer to your claim in post #81 that you didn't know what happened ...

The Texas grid doesn't collapse every time the wind stops blowing (c.f. Jan 20th, Jan 23rd, Feb 1st) ... so the natural gas pipeline system can handle all the demand put on it ... something went wrong with the pipeline system ... and now we're laughing at Texas, an energy rich State can't keep her heaters on ... HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW ...

Bubba didn't finish Middle School ...

No. What I am surmising is that the electrical providers counted on wind remaining online and did not contract with the gas marketers for gas to cover the increased generation needed because wind went down. They eventually got the gas to run the plants. It just took a little while to get enough.

The gas fired plants were already there. They just weren't running at full capacity because they were generating power from the wind turbines. Gas fired plants have essentially become swing generators. AND the electrical providers didn't plan for needing that swing because they did not anticipate or plan for the wind turbines going off line.

Horsefeathers ... the graph you posted clearly shows wind going offline .. and gas kicking in to cover the load ... why doesn't the grid go off-line then? ...

"... electrical providers counted on wind ..."

Are you serious? ... why are you letting Bubba make these decisions? ...

First ... explain to me in simple terms why it's physically impossible for freeze-offs to occur in Texas in cold weather ... something that's a fairly common problem in North Dakota ... I respect your opinion on The Verge, but I've been reading this elsewhere and The Verge was the first hit on a google search ...

What you want us to believe is that the Texas governor is too stupid to order those gas valves turned on ... yeah, right ... okay boomer ...

Horsefeathers ... the graph you posted clearly shows wind going offline .. and gas kicking in to cover the load ...

That's what I said. Go back and re-read what I wrote.

why doesn't the grid go off-line then? ...
It did. At least the amount needed to avoid an overload. They were supposed to roll the blackouts but they didn't do that the first 36 hours. The Y axis shows the percentage supplied by type not KWH so you can't see the lower load on that graph.

It did. At least the amount needed to avoid an overload. They were supposed to roll the blackouts but they didn't do that the first 36 hours. The Y axis shows the percentage supplied by type not KWH so you can't see the lower load on that graph.

No it didn't ... what the hell are you talking about? ... the Texas grid did NOT fail on Jan 20th, or Jan 23rd, or Feb 1st ... it failed on Feb 14th and ONLY on Feb 14th ... in spite wind going off-line those three dates beforehand ...

The difference is Texas was experiencing all time record cold on Feb 14th ... something that wasn't in the long term plans and the expensive equipment needed to prevent the black out never installed ... it's a risk/benefit decision made in corporate boardrooms ... profit before people ...

I did noticed one thing that the Practical Engineering video (post #101) didn't touch upon ... the record cold hit the entire grid, all the power plants were effected by the cold ... in previous cold snaps, only one side of the grid or the other would freeze up and the other side could manage the load ... that's a problem with Texas being mostly isolated from the Eastern Grid, Texas wasn't able to draw power in from where power plants were still working ...

You're trying to pin all this on the wind farms ... and that's very plainly something that's easily, and regularly, mitigated ... as demonstrated by your graph ... something else went terribly wrong and your the only one who claims gas suppliers refused to provide the gas needed ... other engineers, regulators and grid managers claim the pipelines were blocked with ice ... a fairly common problem in other areas of the USA ... the contracts were in place, users paid the spot price, when the spot price skyrocketed that evening, users shut down rather than pay that price ... profit before people ...

 

[ding]

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

In Oregon we get more power from renewables than from gas, coal, and nuclear combined.

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

Two points here:

1. Oregon is not Texas.

2. "In 2019, 49% of Oregon's utility-scale electricity net generation came from hydroelectric power, and 62% came from conventional hydroelectric power plants and other renewable energy resources combined."

Are you saying environmentalists would support new hydroelectric dams being built? Because -- they wouldn't.

Oregon is actively trying to tear out dams ... the ones not worthy for the new technologies ... the power is surplus and so unnecessary to Oregon's electric demand ... BPA's facilities also provide for navigation up and down the Columbia River, so those dams aren't going anywhere, and they get all the latest technology and equipment ...

No one supports building more dams, we have all that we need already ... land to build homes on is what's in dreadfully short supply ...

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

What you chart shows is that Texas could cover the electric demand with gas and coal only ... as wind is unreliable ... what you're claiming is that Texas gas suppliers ran their reserves to empty just before a massive polar front moved over the State ... do you have a citation or are you just guessing? ... and please refer to your claim in post #81 that you didn't know what happened ...

The Texas grid doesn't collapse every time the wind stops blowing (c.f. Jan 20th, Jan 23rd, Feb 1st) ... so the natural gas pipeline system can handle all the demand put on it ... something went wrong with the pipeline system ... and now we're laughing at Texas, an energy rich State can't keep her heaters on ... HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW ...

Bubba didn't finish Middle School ...

No. What I am surmising is that the electrical providers counted on wind remaining online and did not contract with the gas marketers for gas to cover the increased generation needed because wind went down. They eventually got the gas to run the plants. It just took a little while to get enough.

The gas fired plants were already there. They just weren't running at full capacity because they were generating power from the wind turbines. Gas fired plants have essentially become swing generators. AND the electrical providers didn't plan for needing that swing because they did not anticipate or plan for the wind turbines going off line.

Horsefeathers ... the graph you posted clearly shows wind going offline .. and gas kicking in to cover the load ... why doesn't the grid go off-line then? ...

"... electrical providers counted on wind ..."

Are you serious? ... why are you letting Bubba make these decisions? ...

First ... explain to me in simple terms why it's physically impossible for freeze-offs to occur in Texas in cold weather ... something that's a fairly common problem in North Dakota ... I respect your opinion on The Verge, but I've been reading this elsewhere and The Verge was the first hit on a google search ...

What you want us to believe is that the Texas governor is too stupid to order those gas valves turned on ... yeah, right ... okay boomer ...

Horsefeathers ... the graph you posted clearly shows wind going offline .. and gas kicking in to cover the load ...

That's what I said. Go back and re-read what I wrote.

why doesn't the grid go off-line then? ...
It did. At least the amount needed to avoid an overload. They were supposed to roll the blackouts but they didn't do that the first 36 hours. The Y axis shows the percentage supplied by type not KWH so you can't see the lower load on that graph.

It did. At least the amount needed to avoid an overload. They were supposed to roll the blackouts but they didn't do that the first 36 hours. The Y axis shows the percentage supplied by type not KWH so you can't see the lower load on that graph.

No it didn't ... what the hell are you talking about? ... the Texas grid did NOT fail on Jan 20th, or Jan 23rd, or Feb 1st ... it failed on Feb 14th and ONLY on Feb 14th ... in spite wind going off-line those three dates beforehand ...

The difference is Texas was experiencing all time record cold on Feb 14th ... something that wasn't in the long term plans and the expensive equipment needed to prevent the black out never installed ... it's a risk/benefit decision made in corporate boardrooms ... profit before people ...

I did noticed one thing that the Practical Engineering video (post #101) didn't touch upon ... the record cold hit the entire grid, all the power plants were effected by the cold ... in previous cold snaps, only one side of the grid or the other would freeze up and the other side could manage the load ... that's a problem with Texas being mostly isolated from the Eastern Grid, Texas wasn't able to draw power in from where power plants were still working ...

You're trying to pin all this on the wind farms ... and that's very plainly something that's easily, and regularly, mitigated ... as demonstrated by your graph ... something else went terribly wrong and your the only one who claims gas suppliers refused to provide the gas needed ... other engineers, regulators and grid managers claim the pipelines were blocked with ice ... a fairly common problem in other areas of the USA ... the contracts were in place, users paid the spot price, when the spot price skyrocketed that evening, users shut down rather than pay that price ... profit before people ...

Actually I'm not. I am pinning it on they did not have contracts in place for extra gas. If they already had the contracts in place they wouldn't have needed to pay the higher prices. It was their going to the market for more gas that caused the prices to soar. And yes, I don't believe their story. They were seconds away from exceeding their load and catastrophe.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

In Oregon we get more power from renewables than from gas, coal, and nuclear combined.

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

Wtf you get most of the power from hydro, how does that work in Wyoming?

 

[ReinyDays]

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

In Oregon we get more power from renewables than from gas, coal, and nuclear combined.

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

Two points here:

1. Oregon is not Texas.

2. "In 2019, 49% of Oregon's utility-scale electricity net generation came from hydroelectric power, and 62% came from conventional hydroelectric power plants and other renewable energy resources combined."

Are you saying environmentalists would support new hydroelectric dams being built? Because -- they wouldn't.

Oregon is actively trying to tear out dams ... the ones not worthy for the new technologies ... the power is surplus and so unnecessary to Oregon's electric demand ... BPA's facilities also provide for navigation up and down the Columbia River, so those dams aren't going anywhere, and they get all the latest technology and equipment ...

No one supports building more dams, we have all that we need already ... land to build homes on is what's in dreadfully short supply ...

"...the ones not worthy for the new technologies..."

What does that mean?

"...the ones not worthy for the new technologies..."
What does that mean?

Timber dams rot ... for the few kW these old dam produce, it's not worth repairing them with concrete ... duh ... plus silting is a problem, the impoundments fill up ...

The environmental concern, and this is shared by both the fishing and tourist industries, is these old dams block the salmon migration ... about 2/3's the Columbia River watershed is devoid of sea-run salmon and steelhead ... they can't get past Grand Coulee Dam in Washington State ... there's still a few places in Oregon where one could almost walk across small rivers on the backs of Springers ... besides, we have more than enough dams as it is, enough to ship electricity down to California, and California is rich enough to pay our prices ...

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

In Oregon we get more power from renewables than from gas, coal, and nuclear combined.

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

Two points here:

1. Oregon is not Texas.

2. "In 2019, 49% of Oregon's utility-scale electricity net generation came from hydroelectric power, and 62% came from conventional hydroelectric power plants and other renewable energy resources combined."

Are you saying environmentalists would support new hydroelectric dams being built? Because -- they wouldn't.

Oregon is actively trying to tear out dams ... the ones not worthy for the new technologies ... the power is surplus and so unnecessary to Oregon's electric demand ... BPA's facilities also provide for navigation up and down the Columbia River, so those dams aren't going anywhere, and they get all the latest technology and equipment ...

No one supports building more dams, we have all that we need already ... land to build homes on is what's in dreadfully short supply ...

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

What you chart shows is that Texas could cover the electric demand with gas and coal only ... as wind is unreliable ... what you're claiming is that Texas gas suppliers ran their reserves to empty just before a massive polar front moved over the State ... do you have a citation or are you just guessing? ... and please refer to your claim in post #81 that you didn't know what happened ...

The Texas grid doesn't collapse every time the wind stops blowing (c.f. Jan 20th, Jan 23rd, Feb 1st) ... so the natural gas pipeline system can handle all the demand put on it ... something went wrong with the pipeline system ... and now we're laughing at Texas, an energy rich State can't keep her heaters on ... HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW ...

Bubba didn't finish Middle School ...

No. What I am surmising is that the electrical providers counted on wind remaining online and did not contract with the gas marketers for gas to cover the increased generation needed because wind went down. They eventually got the gas to run the plants. It just took a little while to get enough.

The gas fired plants were already there. They just weren't running at full capacity because they were generating power from the wind turbines. Gas fired plants have essentially become swing generators. AND the electrical providers didn't plan for needing that swing because they did not anticipate or plan for the wind turbines going off line.

Horsefeathers ... the graph you posted clearly shows wind going offline .. and gas kicking in to cover the load ... why doesn't the grid go off-line then? ...

"... electrical providers counted on wind ..."

Are you serious? ... why are you letting Bubba make these decisions? ...

First ... explain to me in simple terms why it's physically impossible for freeze-offs to occur in Texas in cold weather ... something that's a fairly common problem in North Dakota ... I respect your opinion on The Verge, but I've been reading this elsewhere and The Verge was the first hit on a google search ...

What you want us to believe is that the Texas governor is too stupid to order those gas valves turned on ... yeah, right ... okay boomer ...

Horsefeathers ... the graph you posted clearly shows wind going offline .. and gas kicking in to cover the load ...

That's what I said. Go back and re-read what I wrote.

why doesn't the grid go off-line then? ...
It did. At least the amount needed to avoid an overload. They were supposed to roll the blackouts but they didn't do that the first 36 hours. The Y axis shows the percentage supplied by type not KWH so you can't see the lower load on that graph.

It did. At least the amount needed to avoid an overload. They were supposed to roll the blackouts but they didn't do that the first 36 hours. The Y axis shows the percentage supplied by type not KWH so you can't see the lower load on that graph.

No it didn't ... what the hell are you talking about? ... the Texas grid did NOT fail on Jan 20th, or Jan 23rd, or Feb 1st ... it failed on Feb 14th and ONLY on Feb 14th ... in spite wind going off-line those three dates beforehand ...

The difference is Texas was experiencing all time record cold on Feb 14th ... something that wasn't in the long term plans and the expensive equipment needed to prevent the black out never installed ... it's a risk/benefit decision made in corporate boardrooms ... profit before people ...

I did noticed one thing that the Practical Engineering video (post #101) didn't touch upon ... the record cold hit the entire grid, all the power plants were effected by the cold ... in previous cold snaps, only one side of the grid or the other would freeze up and the other side could manage the load ... that's a problem with Texas being mostly isolated from the Eastern Grid, Texas wasn't able to draw power in from where power plants were still working ...

You're trying to pin all this on the wind farms ... and that's very plainly something that's easily, and regularly, mitigated ... as demonstrated by your graph ... something else went terribly wrong and your the only one who claims gas suppliers refused to provide the gas needed ... other engineers, regulators and grid managers claim the pipelines were blocked with ice ... a fairly common problem in other areas of the USA ... the contracts were in place, users paid the spot price, when the spot price skyrocketed that evening, users shut down rather than pay that price ... profit before people ...

Actually I'm not. I am pinning it on they did not have contracts in place for extra gas. If they already had the contracts in place they wouldn't have needed to pay the higher prices. It was their going to the market for more gas that caused the prices to soar. And yes, I don't believe their story. They were seconds away from exceeding their load and catastrophe.

Unbelievable ... sorry, Texas grid managers warned power plant operators a full week ahead of time there would be record cold temperatures, and record demand ... you claim operators ignored this warning and didn't prepare ... maybe all the people involve really are that stupid ... Texas has the reputation of having a piss-poor education system ...

You still haven't explained the magical properties of Texas water so that it alone won't freeze when temperatures drop below 32ºF ... you tell me, how much water comes up with the natural gas into the wellhead ... other engineers from Texas claim freeze-offs in the pipeline and wellheads were a major contributing factor ...

You've yet to post a citation that backs your claims ... that tells me your idea are below the National Enquirer's journalistic standards ...

 

[ReinyDays]

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

In Oregon we get more power from renewables than from gas, coal, and nuclear combined.

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

Wtf you get most of the power from hydro, how does that work in Wyoming?

Oregon is being offered as a counter-example to the claim "renewables don't work" ... clearly, they do work quite well in some places ... and the choice is strictly a local decision ...

If wind/solar/hydro isn't economical for your local area, don't bother with them ... the pollution problems with fossil fuels have been mostly solved already ... my understanding is that frackers use agar these days, that's a human food source ... it's pollution, just it's not a problem, human food in the ground water isn't killing anyone ...

And check your facts ... Carbon County, Wyoming, is building one of the nation's largest wind farms ... {Cite}

 

[ding]

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

In Oregon we get more power from renewables than from gas, coal, and nuclear combined.

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

Two points here:

1. Oregon is not Texas.

2. "In 2019, 49% of Oregon's utility-scale electricity net generation came from hydroelectric power, and 62% came from conventional hydroelectric power plants and other renewable energy resources combined."

Are you saying environmentalists would support new hydroelectric dams being built? Because -- they wouldn't.

Oregon is actively trying to tear out dams ... the ones not worthy for the new technologies ... the power is surplus and so unnecessary to Oregon's electric demand ... BPA's facilities also provide for navigation up and down the Columbia River, so those dams aren't going anywhere, and they get all the latest technology and equipment ...

No one supports building more dams, we have all that we need already ... land to build homes on is what's in dreadfully short supply ...

"...the ones not worthy for the new technologies..."

What does that mean?

"...the ones not worthy for the new technologies..."
What does that mean?

Timber dams rot ... for the few kW these old dam produce, it's not worth repairing them with concrete ... duh ... plus silting is a problem, the impoundments fill up ...

The environmental concern, and this is shared by both the fishing and tourist industries, is these old dams block the salmon migration ... about 2/3's the Columbia River watershed is devoid of sea-run salmon and steelhead ... they can't get past Grand Coulee Dam in Washington State ... there's still a few places in Oregon where one could almost walk across small rivers on the backs of Springers ... besides, we have more than enough dams as it is, enough to ship electricity down to California, and California is rich enough to pay our prices ...

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

In Oregon we get more power from renewables than from gas, coal, and nuclear combined.

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

Two points here:

1. Oregon is not Texas.

2. "In 2019, 49% of Oregon's utility-scale electricity net generation came from hydroelectric power, and 62% came from conventional hydroelectric power plants and other renewable energy resources combined."

Are you saying environmentalists would support new hydroelectric dams being built? Because -- they wouldn't.

Oregon is actively trying to tear out dams ... the ones not worthy for the new technologies ... the power is surplus and so unnecessary to Oregon's electric demand ... BPA's facilities also provide for navigation up and down the Columbia River, so those dams aren't going anywhere, and they get all the latest technology and equipment ...

No one supports building more dams, we have all that we need already ... land to build homes on is what's in dreadfully short supply ...

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

What you chart shows is that Texas could cover the electric demand with gas and coal only ... as wind is unreliable ... what you're claiming is that Texas gas suppliers ran their reserves to empty just before a massive polar front moved over the State ... do you have a citation or are you just guessing? ... and please refer to your claim in post #81 that you didn't know what happened ...

The Texas grid doesn't collapse every time the wind stops blowing (c.f. Jan 20th, Jan 23rd, Feb 1st) ... so the natural gas pipeline system can handle all the demand put on it ... something went wrong with the pipeline system ... and now we're laughing at Texas, an energy rich State can't keep her heaters on ... HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW ...

Bubba didn't finish Middle School ...

No. What I am surmising is that the electrical providers counted on wind remaining online and did not contract with the gas marketers for gas to cover the increased generation needed because wind went down. They eventually got the gas to run the plants. It just took a little while to get enough.

The gas fired plants were already there. They just weren't running at full capacity because they were generating power from the wind turbines. Gas fired plants have essentially become swing generators. AND the electrical providers didn't plan for needing that swing because they did not anticipate or plan for the wind turbines going off line.

Horsefeathers ... the graph you posted clearly shows wind going offline .. and gas kicking in to cover the load ... why doesn't the grid go off-line then? ...

"... electrical providers counted on wind ..."

Are you serious? ... why are you letting Bubba make these decisions? ...

First ... explain to me in simple terms why it's physically impossible for freeze-offs to occur in Texas in cold weather ... something that's a fairly common problem in North Dakota ... I respect your opinion on The Verge, but I've been reading this elsewhere and The Verge was the first hit on a google search ...

What you want us to believe is that the Texas governor is too stupid to order those gas valves turned on ... yeah, right ... okay boomer ...

Horsefeathers ... the graph you posted clearly shows wind going offline .. and gas kicking in to cover the load ...

That's what I said. Go back and re-read what I wrote.

why doesn't the grid go off-line then? ...
It did. At least the amount needed to avoid an overload. They were supposed to roll the blackouts but they didn't do that the first 36 hours. The Y axis shows the percentage supplied by type not KWH so you can't see the lower load on that graph.

It did. At least the amount needed to avoid an overload. They were supposed to roll the blackouts but they didn't do that the first 36 hours. The Y axis shows the percentage supplied by type not KWH so you can't see the lower load on that graph.

No it didn't ... what the hell are you talking about? ... the Texas grid did NOT fail on Jan 20th, or Jan 23rd, or Feb 1st ... it failed on Feb 14th and ONLY on Feb 14th ... in spite wind going off-line those three dates beforehand ...

The difference is Texas was experiencing all time record cold on Feb 14th ... something that wasn't in the long term plans and the expensive equipment needed to prevent the black out never installed ... it's a risk/benefit decision made in corporate boardrooms ... profit before people ...

I did noticed one thing that the Practical Engineering video (post #101) didn't touch upon ... the record cold hit the entire grid, all the power plants were effected by the cold ... in previous cold snaps, only one side of the grid or the other would freeze up and the other side could manage the load ... that's a problem with Texas being mostly isolated from the Eastern Grid, Texas wasn't able to draw power in from where power plants were still working ...

You're trying to pin all this on the wind farms ... and that's very plainly something that's easily, and regularly, mitigated ... as demonstrated by your graph ... something else went terribly wrong and your the only one who claims gas suppliers refused to provide the gas needed ... other engineers, regulators and grid managers claim the pipelines were blocked with ice ... a fairly common problem in other areas of the USA ... the contracts were in place, users paid the spot price, when the spot price skyrocketed that evening, users shut down rather than pay that price ... profit before people ...

Actually I'm not. I am pinning it on they did not have contracts in place for extra gas. If they already had the contracts in place they wouldn't have needed to pay the higher prices. It was their going to the market for more gas that caused the prices to soar. And yes, I don't believe their story. They were seconds away from exceeding their load and catastrophe.

Unbelievable ... sorry, Texas grid managers warned power plant operators a full week ahead of time there would be record cold temperatures, and record demand ... you claim operators ignored this warning and didn't prepare ... maybe all the people involve really are that stupid ... Texas has the reputation of having a piss-poor education system ...

You still haven't explained the magical properties of Texas water so that it alone won't freeze when temperatures drop below 32ºF ... you tell me, how much water comes up with the natural gas into the wellhead ... other engineers from Texas claim freeze-offs in the pipeline and wellheads were a major contributing factor ...

You've yet to post a citation that backs your claims ... that tells me your idea are below the National Enquirer's journalistic standards ...

There are pipeline quality specs that limit water content, CO2 and H2S concentrations into pipelines. They are super picky about what goes into interstate pipelines. And interstate pipelines are typically buried 3 to 6 feet. Any freezing issues would be in fields - at wellheads and above ground flow lines - not in buried interstate pipelines. I haven't even brought up gas storage fields yet which are used during high demand periods and make up shortfalls. So the argument that gas was unavailable is bullshit.

You can rant on Texas all you want. In my opinion that says more about you than Texas.

But listen, if you want to believe that shit, go right ahead. I couldn't care less.

 

[Wyatt earp]

Read'em and weep Old Rocks

View attachment 498006

In Oregon we get more power from renewables than from gas, coal, and nuclear combined.

U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis

www.eia.gov

Wtf you get most of the power from hydro, how does that work in Wyoming?

Oregon is being offered as a counter-example to the claim "renewables don't work" ... clearly, they do work quite well in some places ... and the choice is strictly a local decision ...

If wind/solar/hydro isn't economical for your local area, don't bother with them ... the pollution problems with fossil fuels have been mostly solved already ... my understanding is that frackers use agar these days, that's a human food source ... it's pollution, just it's not a problem, human food in the ground water isn't killing anyone ...

And check your facts ... Carbon County, Wyoming, is building one of the nation's largest wind farms ... {Cite}

Old rocks is trying to say its mostly wind and solar,which is a lie