Zone1 If God Is All Powerful, All Knowing, and All Loving, Then Why Didn't He Create Us To Be Perfect Like Himself

[onefour1]

I would say it completely misses the point , even its own point

" For example, every individual has a divine idea corresponding to his essence and every individual perfectly imitates that divine idea. So for instance, there is a divine idea of Socrates and Socrates cannot be any more or less like the divine idea of Socrates, for then Socrates would be more or less like Socrates. Thus each person has an "ontological dignity," since we are exactly the way God intended us to be. We are of course a deficient likeness of God's nature, but not of his divine idea of us."

So questioner assumed he knew why God made us to begin with. ANd he is wrong there.
And he took as his yardstick for 'perfection' what he wanted. And he is wrong there.
God created from love and freely.

If God, as Matt. 5:48 and John 17:20-23 suggest, wanted us to be perfect like Himself, why not just create us perfect instead of putting us through a life of suffering, death, etc. What is the purpose of choosing to put us through mortality instead of simply creating us to just like Himself?

 

[onefour1]

I normally don't answer when it is obvious the questioner doesn't care and does no homework BUT
Your entire premise is off

The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Pet.1:4) “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” (St. Irenaus) “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” (St. Athanasius) “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.” (St. Thomas Aquinas)

Catechism of the Catholic Church, para. 460.

But Why? Why go about it through pain and suffer of both the Son of God and the suffering of mankind. If God had the power and know how, why not simply create us as perfect as Himself instead of going through all the pain, suffering, and death?

 

[onefour1]

There is a theory ... not widely accepted, but interesting ... that G-d is doing precisely that.

That our Universe is one massive petri dish in which the experiment that is our cosmos is developing from inception to it's ultimate form of god-like perfection and that we, as a part of that experiment are only a portion of the way towards that end result. Whether we are 1% of the way their or 50% is open to speculation but the idea is that we aren't done cooking yet.

View attachment 885989

Why not make us perfect to begin with instead of going through a painful process?

 

[onefour1]

I just told you why. Do you not read? First of all, who ever decided that God could make us perfect like himself? That would be in effect God creating God, and God is outside/transcends the phenomenal/temporal universe; where is it written that God can create another of himself let alone a quadrillion to the quadrillion power more just like Him, especially when that is entirely in conflict with what God is? God is God, He is Himself. He is the original cause of all causes. He is beyond beginning, he is beyond end, yet you try to rationalize a creation of a billion trillion other gods who begin, even worse, exist separate from God while being God?! It is insanity and foolish mental speculation. Once again, tiny man tries to conceptualize God in the only finite way he can relate to as a separate entity to which others are separate and can co-exist like in a crowd, the exact opposite of what God is.

So you do not believe that God can make us perfect like himself? So it is your belief that there are things that an all powerful God cannot do and that He cannot do all things that are imaginable? In the Bible Jesus tells us that we are gods and that this applies to those unto whom the word of God came (Psalms 82:6 and John 10:31-36). Jesus also commanded us to become perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect (Matt. 5:48). Was Jesus deceiving us into believing we could actually be perfect like our Father in Heaven? John 17:20-23 tells us that we can become perfect in one with the Father even as Jesus is perfect in one with the Father. Was this a lie? Is perfection as God is perfect an impossibility in your mind? Can mankind never become perfect as their Heavenly Father is perfect?

What the Bible speaks of is us returning to be one with God, like guests living in his home, not being more, new, separate Gods. And man puts himself through his own suffering by insisting on being separate from God whose free will he gives us in his infinite mercy allows us to so choose.

Does He not also choose to allow us to become like God Himself?

I avoid nothing. I have answered you as completely as you are able to understand. The failing is yours in avoiding understanding. The typical temporal, rational, skeptical, doubting mind instead of listening through the heart.

I am not avoiding understanding but merely challenging your perspective. When Jesus commands us to be perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect, this does not imply that we cannot become perfect like our Father in Heaven but that we actually can become perfect like Father in Heaven is perfect. For us to become one with the Father even as Jesus is one with the Father implies that we can obtain the oneness that Jesus and the Father share. Are you saying that can never be obtained? From my perspective, I believe you also lack understanding. We all lack a certain degree of understanding but when God tells us and commands us to be perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect, I think I can take that as an assurance that mankind can become as perfect and our Father in Heaven. Can you not agree on that? My question to you is why didn't God simply make to be perfect like Himself instead of going through a process where we can become perfect like Himself? I believe there is an answer to this question and I want to see who out there on this forum can give me the answer. I believe I know the answer and I will share what I believe in a subsequent post.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Why is it an excuse? If God is all powerful, then wouldn't he have the power to create us perfect like himself? If God is all knowing, then wouldn't have the know how to create us perfect like himself? If God is all loving, then wouldn't he love us enough to create us perfect like himself? How is it an excuse?

If He did create us perfect, how is it that we make imperfect decisions and have short comings?

The Divine Right of Kings to Invent Divinities

According to the mythology, He did create perfect angels. But some of them used their free will to become devils. In a repetition of the Prometheus myth, Lucifer, literally a "bringer of light," rebelled against God's totalitarian authority. It tell us something (if truth could be told) that Christians were made to believe that was the worst sin of all.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

The first thing Adam and Eve did was disobey him

The Serpent, of Course, Was a Phallic Symbol

The implied meaning of that story was that Adam obeyed Eve because of his overwhelming sex drive (which God created). This was the beginning of the frigid fear of sexuality by God's Goody Two Shoes intrusive cult.

 

[onefour1]

Maybe, just maybe, God isn't omniscient. What if god knows exactly what we do, when we do it, but nothing before hand? This allows us to make decisions, good or bad. This removes God's culpability, because if he knows all things, then is there for culpable for all things. It's called "Open Theism". I know for many, it would be heretical. But it does not remove God's power, only His foreknowledge.

My understanding from scripture is that God is all knowing and because of this He is able to prophesy of things to come in the future and it will come to pass. I believe that being all knowing is part of being all powerful and visa versa.

1 John 3:20
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

Or it's simply that man created God. T

Propaganda From Pompous Parasites

The absolute rulers created all these gods in their own image. Their subjects couldn't see any gods, so they only believed out of wishful thinking. To compensate their minds for that, they had to worship their rulers as clear and present images of gods.

 

[Arlette]

Propaganda From Pompous Parasites

The absolute rulers created all these gods in their own image. Their subjects couldn't see any gods, so they only believed out of wishful thinking. To compensate their minds for that, they had to worship their rulers as clear and present images of gods.

Gods were used/needed to legitimize rulers

 

[OneIsTheWord]

If God has the power to do anything imaginable and knows all things, certainly He would have the power to make us to be exactly like himself. Certainly He would know how to make us perfect like himself, and if He truly loves us, then he would certainly make us to be the best we could be. So why did God create us as imperfect sinful beings instead of perfect beings just like himself?

Some have answered this by saying that God gave us free will and because of this mankind has chosen to be imperfect. However, this does not really answer the dilemma. If God created us to be perfect like Himself, then we would make perfect choices given that we are created to be perfect even as God is perfect. Does God have free will? Does God make bad choices?

As a Christian, how would you respond to this problem of imperfect and evil?

greetings
because the Lord wants to create imperfection, perfectly
when something has some flaw, it has greater value, because its one of its kind
perfection has many flaws

 

[onefour1]

As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. Through Joseph Smith, God revealed the following:

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

It is doctrine of the church that when God created our spirits, he created it from two things, 1. Spirit Matter and 2. eternal intelligence.

The above verse speaks of eternal intelligence and tells us that our intelligence has always existed and is self existent. What this is saying is that God did not create our intellect and that it, just like God, has eternally existed. The spirit body was created from a more pure and fine substance we call spirit matter. This spirit matter was combined with our self-existing intelligence to make up our spirits. We believe that our spirits were all created prior to coming to this earth through the procreation process of God. In other words, we are the literal offspring of God. He is literally our Father in Heaven. However, the intelligence within our spirits has always existed. Thus God could never create it and thus he could never create it to be perfect. It was in the state it was in prior to us being born on this earth. God cannot create something that is self-existing. The above verse teaches that our intelligence in self-existing and was never created or made. Here is another verse that informs us that our spirit bodies are made up of spiritual matter:

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7-8
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

So in summary, because our intelligence could not be created or made by God, He could not create it to be perfect. Yes, we have always existed as an intelligence. We do not know what an intelligence looks like but we know that our intelligence is not as advanced as God. Since God could not create our intelligence, the only way for it to progress is for it to go through experience and learning. God placed us on this earth to learn good from evil and to experience more joy through having a physical body just as God knows good and evil and has a resurrected body. When resurrected we will be able to receive a fulness of joy.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:33
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Free will plays a major part in our progression. Nobody makes God be a good being. He chooses to be a good being in and of himself. God gives us free will so that we too can learn to be a good being and make the right choices in and of ourselves. You cannot become a good being by force. This is why Satan, who wanted to force us all to be good had a faulty plan. You can only be a truly good being by choosing in and of yourself to be a good being. Since God could not create us to be perfect, He needs to try and get us to choose to be a good being of our own volition. In the premortal world of spirits, we all wanted to become like our Father in Heaven and God provided a means whereby we could achieve that goal. However, it requires that we choose of our own free will and choice to be a good being. We need to be converted to choosing good over evil. All who come to this earth and receive a body did not rebel against God in the premortal world of spirits. We chose to side with God in the war in heaven. Those who sided with Lucifer (Satan) were denied the opportunity to receive a body of flesh and bones but were cast into this earth to try and test us to see if we would choose good over evil. Those evil spirits can only tempt us but never force us to be evil. Thus we truly have free will to be either a good being or a bad one. So this is our belief as to why God could not create us to be perfect from the beginning. There is a part of man that is self-existing and the only way for us to become like our Father in Heaven is to choose in and of ourselves to be so. Thus we come to the world of hard knocks to make that choice and overcome evil and experience good and evil that we might better appreciate the good. God, in his wisdom, has found that this is the best way to progress and only those who choose to be good of their own free will and choice will become like God. Those who choose otherwise will reap the rewards of their choices.

 

[JimH52]

If God has the power to do anything imaginable and knows all things, certainly He would have the power to make us to be exactly like himself. Certainly He would know how to make us perfect like himself, and if He truly loves us, then he would certainly make us to be the best we could be. So why did God create us as imperfect sinful beings instead of perfect beings just like himself?

Some have answered this by saying that God gave us free will and because of this mankind has chosen to be imperfect. However, this does not really answer the dilemma. If God created us to be perfect like Himself, then we would make perfect choices given that we are created to be perfect even as God is perfect. Does God have free will? Does God make bad choices?

As a Christian, how would you respond to this problem of imperfect and evil?

Read Genesis

 

[onefour1]

Read Genesis

Read it multiple times, what's your point?

 

[fncceo]

Why not make us perfect to begin with instead of going through a painful process?

G-d has infinite time... why work hard when you can work smart?

 

[onefour1]

G-d has infinite time... why work hard when you can work smart?

When I read your comment I think you might have that backwards. Seems like you would be more efficient by creating something perfect from the start rather than going through 100 times the work load over a lifetime of each person.

But like I truly believe, God made man from a self-existing non-creatable intelligence that was not created or made and thus could not create mankind to be perfect.

 

[toobfreak]

So you do not believe that God can make us perfect like himself? So it is your belief that there are things that an all powerful God cannot do and that He cannot do all things that are imaginable? In the Bible Jesus tells us that we are gods and that this applies to those unto whom the word of God came (Psalms 82:6 and John 10:31-36). Jesus also commanded us to become perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect (Matt. 5:48). Was Jesus deceiving us into believing we could actually be perfect like our Father in Heaven? John 17:20-23 tells us that we can become perfect in one with the Father even as Jesus is perfect in one with the Father. Was this a lie? Is perfection as God is perfect an impossibility in your mind? Can mankind never become perfect as their Heavenly Father is perfect?

Does He not also choose to allow us to become like God Himself?

I am not avoiding understanding but merely challenging your perspective. When Jesus commands us to be perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect, this does not imply that we cannot become perfect like our Father in Heaven but that we actually can become perfect like Father in Heaven is perfect. For us to become one with the Father even as Jesus is one with the Father implies that we can obtain the oneness that Jesus and the Father share. Are you saying that can never be obtained? From my perspective, I believe you also lack understanding. We all lack a certain degree of understanding but when God tells us and commands us to be perfect, even as our Father in Heaven is perfect, I think I can take that as an assurance that mankind can become as perfect and our Father in Heaven. Can you not agree on that? My question to you is why didn't God simply make to be perfect like Himself instead of going through a process where we can become perfect like Himself? I believe there is an answer to this question and I want to see who out there on this forum can give me the answer. I believe I know the answer and I will share what I believe in a subsequent post.

tl; dr. Sorry, 141, I'm not interested in reading nor debating your idle speculations about God. God cannot be approached through mental thought experiments. I've given you good information, have already answered all your questions, just not apparently with the answers you WANT to hear; it is now up to you to utilize it or not. It is your free choice. I rather think you will not.

 

[fncceo]

Seems like you would be more efficient by creating something perfect

You're assuming that the end result is the goal and not the process. if you're immortal, you have time to enjoy the form and the finish is not a matter of urgency.

You COULD build a mountain one scoop of dirt at a time OR, you put plate tectonics into motion and enjoy watching the mountains build themselves.

Either way, I'm gonna play the mysterious ways card here..

 

[cnm]

I just told you why. Do you not read?

That screed?

 

[cnm]

The same is true for omnipotent--having all the power it is possible to have. Usage changed its definition to unlimited power.

Is YHWH's power limited?

 

[ninja007]

god didnt make us,, he only made adam and eve,, how do you know hell is a punishment?? it could be better than this place,,

LOL, NO.