If he had had a gun, he would be alive today, hero of mass shooting should have had a gun...

[harmonica]

we DO have guns EVERYWHERE--the most
and one of the highest murder rates in comparable countries

gun ownership:

And what do your charts show? Turkey, not even in the top 25 as far as gun ownership is concerned, is number 2 with homicides.

You did nothing more than prove us right, you don't need a gun to kill someone.

....France, Germany, UK, Japan, etc strict gun control and murder rates MUCH lower than the US--this is plain and simple--CANNOT be denied

 

[Lewdog]

we DO have guns EVERYWHERE--the most
and one of the highest murder rates in comparable countries

gun ownership:

And what do your charts show? Turkey, not even in the top 25 as far as gun ownership is concerned, is number 2 with homicides.

You did nothing more than prove us right, you don't need a gun to kill someone.

....France, Germany, UK, Japan, etc strict gun control and murder rates MUCH lower than the US--this is plain and simple--CANNOT be denied

Yeah but Japan has a higher number of people killed by sword. So it evens out.

 

[Issa]

This hero charged a mass public shooter and tried to stop him. If he had had a gun, he would likely be alive today. This is why gun free zones are stupid policy.....they don't stop mass shooters, and they leave good people, like this hero, unarmed in the fight against a criminal with a gun...

21-Year-Old Student Died Trying to 'Jump' on UNCC Gunman, Disarm Him

If the guns were banned we wouldnt have the same outcomes. Proof? Most countries in the world.

 

[harmonica]

we DO have guns EVERYWHERE--the most
and one of the highest murder rates in comparable countries

gun ownership:

And what do your charts show? Turkey, not even in the top 25 as far as gun ownership is concerned, is number 2 with homicides.

You did nothing more than prove us right, you don't need a gun to kill someone.

o --boy!!!!! yes---it SURE did prove you right !
wow! great logic there

 

[Leo123]

his hero charged a mass public shooter and tried to stop him. If he had had a gun, he would likely be alive today. This is why gun free zones are stupid policy.....they don't stop mass shooters, and they leave good people, like this hero, unarmed in the fight against a criminal with a gun...

Actually, if the nutter who shot all these people didn't have a gun, there wouldn't have been a shooting.

That is one of the stupidest statements I have read on this forum.

 

[Leo123]

This hero charged a mass public shooter and tried to stop him. If he had had a gun, he would likely be alive today. This is why gun free zones are stupid policy.....they don't stop mass shooters, and they leave good people, like this hero, unarmed in the fight against a criminal with a gun...

21-Year-Old Student Died Trying to 'Jump' on UNCC Gunman, Disarm Him

Yeah, too bad Jesus didn't have guns he too would still be alive...

I didn't think anyone could top Joe for the stupidest statement ever made on this forum but by God Moonglow (alias pants-boy) did it.

 

[airplanemechanic]

Yes, I'd much rather see every student packing heat and turning college campuses into the OK Corral.

The O.K. Corral was a gun free zone too..........and the criminals brought their guns anyway...please....read on the topic before you post....you will post with more intelligence...

Doesn't matter. Have you been on a college campus lately? No way in a million years should guns be allowed carried on campus.

Only a person who lacks logic would think that the way to lower gun violence is to arm MORE people with guns. Of course people have shown you stat after stat and you ignore it and continue to post logical fallacies to support your position.

Let me ask you a simple question. Who is at the highest risk to die from gun violence:

A woman in a gun free home or a woman in a home with guns?

If your hypothesis that more guns equals more gun related homicides...let's look more into it. According to the FBI here are the top 10 states in gun ownership (per capita, not raw numbers):


Alaska
Arkansas
Idaho
West Virginia
Wyomig
Montana
New Mexico
Alabama
North Dakota
Hawaii

Here are the top 10 states in homicides where a gun is used (per capita):

Louisiana
Missouri
Maryland
South Carolina
Michigan
Delaware
Mississippi
Georgia
Arizona
Pennsylvania

What you'll notice that there's no correlation between states with gun ownership and homicides where guns are used in the United States.

You are roughly 7 times more likely to be killed in the US than in Canada by a gun, yet Americans are 4 times are likely to own a gun. If the more guns = more homicides we should expect the correlation to be more similar.

We would also expect a large correlation between countries that have a large amount of gun ownership to homicides as well. Canada is 7th in the world for gun ownership. They are 29th in homicides.

The problem with mass shooting in the US (and there's no doubt that it is a problem), is that people don't want to look at the real problem because it makes us uncomfortable: it's our culture, our mentality, and mental health system. Gun killings are the symptom, not the underlying problem.

Damn straight. We know here in Louisiana that bad guys have guns, so tons of good guys have them too.

 

[Weatherman2020]

OK. How do you stop criminals from getting guns?

Same way Japan, the UK, France, Germany, Italy do it, where they have nowhere near our crime rates.

Same way Mexico does gun confiscation too. Except Mexico is more dangerous than Iraq.

 

[2aguy]

This hero charged a mass public shooter and tried to stop him. If he had had a gun, he would likely be alive today. This is why gun free zones are stupid policy.....they don't stop mass shooters, and they leave good people, like this hero, unarmed in the fight against a criminal with a gun...

21-Year-Old Student Died Trying to 'Jump' on UNCC Gunman, Disarm Him

If the guns were banned we wouldnt have the same outcomes. Proof? Most countries in the world.

Wrong....criminal in France and Britain get illegal guns easily, they just don't use them to murder each other.....you don't know what you are talking about...

Britain....

Police struggle to stop flood of firearms into UK


Police and border officials are struggling to stop a rising supply of illegal firearms being smuggled into Britain, a senior police chief has warned.

Chief constable Andy Cooke, the national police lead for serious and organised crime, said law enforcement had seen an increased supply of guns over the past year, and feared that it would continue in 2019

The Guardian has learned that the situation is so serious that the National Crime Agency has taken the rare step of using its legal powers to direct every single police force to step up the fight against illegal guns.

The NCA has used tasking powers to direct greater intelligence about firearms to be gathered by all 43 forces in England and Wales.

Another senior law enforcement official said that “new and clean” weapons were now being used in the majority of shootings, as opposed to guns once being so difficult to obtain that they would be “rented out” to be used in multiple crimes.

Cooke, the Merseyside chief constable, told the Guardian: “We in law enforcement expect the rise in new firearms to continue. We are doing all we can. We are not in a position to stop it anytime soon.

“Law enforcement is more joined up now than before, but the scale of the problem is such that despite a number of excellent firearms seizures, I expect the rise in supply to be a continuing issue.”

The increasing supply of guns belies problems with UK border security and innovations by organised crime gangs. Smugglers have increasingly found new ways and innovative routes to get guns past border defences.


Cooke said that the dynamics of the streets of British cities had changed and that criminals were more willing to use guns: “If they bring them in people will buy them. It’s a kudos thing for organised criminals.”

Simon Brough, head of firearms at the NCA, said: “The majority of guns being used are new, clean firearms ... which indicates a relatively fluid supply.”

He said shotguns were 40% of the total, with an increase in burglaries to try and steal them.

Handguns are the next biggest category, most often smuggled in from overseas, with ferry ports such as Dover being a popular entry point into the UK for organised crime groups:

“We’re doing a lot to fight back against it,” Brough said, adding that compared to other European countries, the availability in the UK was relatively lower.

France....

Paris attacks highlight France's gun control problems

Military-grade guns are banned in France, and even people who want to own a handgun or hunting rifle have to go through strict checks on their background and mental health.

But in recent years a black market has proliferated. The number of illegal weapons has risen at a rapid rate – double-digit percentages – for several years, according to the National Observatory for Delinquency, a body created in 2003.

“In Marseille and the surrounding area almost all the score settling is carried out using weapons used in wars,” a police spokesman told Reuters after the Toulouse attacks, adding that Kalashnikovs were the weapon of choice: “If you don’t have a ‘Kalash’ you’re a bit of a loser.”

Paris attacks highlight France's gun control problems

The arsenal of weapons deployed by the eight attackers who terrorised Paris on Friday night underlined France’s gun control problems and raised the spectre of further attacks.

The country has extremely strict weapons laws, but Europe’s open borders and growing trade in illegal weapons means assault rifles are relatively easy to come by on the black market.


===============
France’s real gun problem

Despite these strict laws, France seems to be awash with guns. The guns used in high-profile terror attacks are really just the tip of the iceberg. In 2012, French authorities estimated that there were around 30,000 guns illegally in the country, many likely used by gangs for criminal activities. Of those guns, around 4,000 were likely to be "war weapons," Le Figaro reported, referring to items such as the Kalashnikov AK-variant rifles and Uzis. Statistics from the National Observatory for Delinquency, a government body created in 2003, suggest that the number of guns in France has grown by double digits every year.


-----------------
This is How AK-47s Get to Paris

France outlaws most gun ownership and it’s almost impossible to legally acquire a high-powered rifle such as an AK-47, so where did the weapons in the Nov. 13 terror attack—not to mention the bloody January assault by Islamic terrorists on the Paris office ofCharlie Hebdo magazine and the 2012 shootings by a militant in Toulouse—come from?



Guns soon became a major export commodity in the Balkans. Western Europe is the target market. “Many firearms trafficked in Europe come from the western Balkans after being held illegally after recent conflicts in the area,” Europol reported. In just one case from 2014, Slovakian cops intercepted a truck trying to enter the country with “a large number of grenades and firearms,”according to Europol. “The vehicle was travelling from Bosnia and Herzegovina to Sweden.”

And it’s not like the stream of weapons will end when dealers in the Balkans run out of war-vintage leftovers. “One of the reasons we see a lot of Kalashnikovs and AK-47s on the black market is because Russia has just upgraded the Kalashnikov,” Kathie Lynn Austin, an expert on arms trafficking with the Conflict Awareness Project, told Al Jazeera, “and that has created massive stockpiles of the older models.”

On March 6, 2012, French lawmakers passed a law tightening up gun regulation and increasing penalties for illegal ownership. Just five days later, Mohamed Merah—a French jihadist of Algerian descent—went on shooting rampage, killing seven people in three separate attacks in around Toulouse before a police sniper shot him dead.

Merah’s arsenal included an AK-47, an Uzi, a Sten submachine gun, a shotgun, and several pistols—all illegal. “He could only supply himself on the black market or from crime organizations, that’s clear,” Thierry Coste, a pro-gun lobbyist, told The Christian Science Monitor.

In October 2014, French police raided several homes across the country, breaking up an Internet-based smuggling ring, arresting 48 suspected traffickers, and seizing hundreds of illegal guns. Three months later on Jan. 7 this year, jihadist gunmen wielding AK-47s shot up Charlie Hebdo in Paris, killing 12 people.

 

[XponentialChaos]

Yes, I'd much rather see every student packing heat and turning college campuses into the OK Corral.

The O.K. Corral was a gun free zone too..........and the criminals brought their guns anyway...please....read on the topic before you post....you will post with more intelligence...

Doesn't matter. Have you been on a college campus lately? No way in a million years should guns be allowed carried on campus.

Only a person who lacks logic would think that the way to lower gun violence is to arm MORE people with guns. Of course people have shown you stat after stat and you ignore it and continue to post logical fallacies to support your position.

Let me ask you a simple question. Who is at the highest risk to die from gun violence:

A woman in a gun free home or a woman in a home with guns?

If your hypothesis that more guns equals more gun related homicides...let's look more into it. According to the FBI here are the top 10 states in gun ownership (per capita, not raw numbers):


Alaska
Arkansas
Idaho
West Virginia
Wyomig
Montana
New Mexico
Alabama
North Dakota
Hawaii

Here are the top 10 states in homicides where a gun is used (per capita):

Louisiana
Missouri
Maryland
South Carolina
Michigan
Delaware
Mississippi
Georgia
Arizona
Pennsylvania

What you'll notice that there's no correlation between states with gun ownership and homicides where guns are used in the United States.

You are roughly 7 times more likely to be killed in the US than in Canada by a gun, yet Americans are 4 times are likely to own a gun. If the more guns = more homicides we should expect the correlation to be more similar.

We would also expect a large correlation between countries that have a large amount of gun ownership to homicides as well. Canada is 7th in the world for gun ownership. They are 29th in homicides.

The problem with mass shooting in the US (and there's no doubt that it is a problem), is that people don't want to look at the real problem because it makes us uncomfortable: it's our culture, our mentality, and mental health system. Gun killings are the symptom, not the underlying problem.

Interesting. I looked into the calculations and I think there's more to the story.

The homicide list you used (from 2010) shows close to no correlation, just as you described. In fact, the correlation coefficient is about -0.06. (Very close to zero basically indicating no correlation). It is indicated that the list you provided excludes "deaths caused by negligence, suicide, or accident".

I then ran the numbers with the overall firearm death rate (from 2016), which of course includes negligence, suicide, and accident. That correlation is a staggering 0.7. (Closer to 1, indicating a moderate positive correlation, and a very distinct upward trend.)

Here's the story that the numbers are showing: More gun ownership tends to mean more gun deaths. However, more gun ownership does not indicate more intentional gun murder.

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Gun violence is minimal (I disagree). It's completely unnecessary and avoidable.

How is gun violence avoidable? What do you think would happen if by some miracle of fate a law was passed instructing all lawful gun owners to turn in their weapons & each and every one did? That would be the end of gun violence?

 

[NewsVine_Mariyam]

Let me ask you a simple question. Who is at the highest risk to die from gun violence:

A woman in a gun free home or a woman in a home with guns?

A woman living in a home with her abuser, whether it's a gun free home or not.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

his hero charged a mass public shooter and tried to stop him. If he had had a gun, he would likely be alive today. This is why gun free zones are stupid policy.....they don't stop mass shooters, and they leave good people, like this hero, unarmed in the fight against a criminal with a gun...

Actually, if the nutter who shot all these people didn't have a gun, there wouldn't have been a shooting.

And if he didn't have a car he couldn't have gotten to the campus.......

600 million guns, one guy uses one gun illegally...and you want to ban all guns....

You have 12 mass public shootings in 2018....with 93 killed...and you want to ban all guns for all Americans....even though as more Americans own and carry guns our gun murder rate went down 49%, something you can't explain.

Meanwhile...cars killed over 38,000 people and they kill about that many every single year, so according to your logic they need to be banned for everyone.....

Your theories and arguments are foolish....

Its not just "one guy uses one gun" is it. Its many guys using guns every day. In the civilised world the US stands out as the most dangerous society because of your crazy medieval gun laws.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

we DO have guns EVERYWHERE--the most
and one of the highest murder rates in comparable countries

gun ownership:

Im not sure which period the second graph covers but I believe that Norways figures are heavily distorted by Breivik expressing his "freedom" a few years back.

 

[Blues Man]

And if he didn't have a car he couldn't have gotten to the campus.......

600 million guns, one guy uses one gun illegally...and you want to ban all guns....

You have 12 mass public shootings in 2018....with 93 killed...and you want to ban all guns for all Americans....even though as more Americans own and carry guns our gun murder rate went down 49%, something you can't explain.

Meanwhile...cars killed over 38,000 people and they kill about that many every single year, so according to your logic they need to be banned for everyone.....

Your theories and arguments are foolish....

The most radical ideas I have heard are banning assault rifles. You know exactly what they mean, so don't start playing games over it either.
Banning assault rifles is not banning all guns.

And banning one type of semiautomatic rifle will do absolutely nothing to lower the murder rate

It may lower the kill rate during mass shootings. Risk reduction. It's all it is.

It's not even that and your risk of being killed in a mass shooting are so low as to eb insignificant

The best way to stop a mass shooting is to not let people with guns into a building.

Banning one weapon when there are countless others that won't be banned and are identical in operation will do absolutely nothing to lower murder rates or the number of mass shootings

Other guns are not "identical in operation." I have been through this argument multiple times. I have read article after article by gun lovers that say AR-type guns are best for rapid fire and ease of use.

An AR fires no faster than any other semiautomatic

ALL semiautomatics fire at the same rate; one round every time the trigger is pulled

 

[Blues Man]

And if he didn't have a car he couldn't have gotten to the campus.......

600 million guns, one guy uses one gun illegally...and you want to ban all guns....

You have 12 mass public shootings in 2018....with 93 killed...and you want to ban all guns for all Americans....even though as more Americans own and carry guns our gun murder rate went down 49%, something you can't explain.

Meanwhile...cars killed over 38,000 people and they kill about that many every single year, so according to your logic they need to be banned for everyone.....

Your theories and arguments are foolish....

The most radical ideas I have heard are banning assault rifles. You know exactly what they mean, so don't start playing games over it either.
Banning assault rifles is not banning all guns.

And banning one type of semiautomatic rifle will do absolutely nothing to lower the murder rate

It may lower the kill rate during mass shootings. Risk reduction. It's all it is.

It's not even that and your risk of being killed in a mass shooting are so low as to eb insignificant

The best way to stop a mass shooting is to not let people with guns into a building.

Banning one weapon when there are countless others that won't be banned and are identical in operation will do absolutely nothing to lower murder rates or the number of mass shootings

your risk of being killed in a mass shooting are so low as to eb insignificant
Where I live, it is doubly remote. Am I allowed to have some concern for fellow Americans, though, or can I only worry about myself?

You can worry all you want but when you worry about things that have an extremely low chance of occurrence you become neurotic.

Your argument is that banning one specific type of gun will lessen the already remote chance of getting killed in a mass shooting but it will have no effect at all on those chances

 

[Blues Man]

his hero charged a mass public shooter and tried to stop him. If he had had a gun, he would likely be alive today. This is why gun free zones are stupid policy.....they don't stop mass shooters, and they leave good people, like this hero, unarmed in the fight against a criminal with a gun...

Actually, if the nutter who shot all these people didn't have a gun, there wouldn't have been a shooting.

And if he didn't have a car he couldn't have gotten to the campus.......

600 million guns, one guy uses one gun illegally...and you want to ban all guns....

You have 12 mass public shootings in 2018....with 93 killed...and you want to ban all guns for all Americans....even though as more Americans own and carry guns our gun murder rate went down 49%, something you can't explain.

Meanwhile...cars killed over 38,000 people and they kill about that many every single year, so according to your logic they need to be banned for everyone.....

Your theories and arguments are foolish....

Its not just "one guy uses one gun" is it. Its many guys using guns every day. In the civilised world the US stands out as the most dangerous society because of your crazy medieval gun laws.

Only a person conditioned into subjugation would think liberty is medieval

 

[Blues Man]

It was one of the worst scams courtesy of the left and Democrats. It was really a subliminial message saying: "Welcome to our place...feel free to walk and and shoot as many people as you can possibly can...and you may win a prize!"

well, no, it's saying, "Probably not much we can do to stop committed mass murderers, given that the NRA seems hell bent on arming them, but we aren't going going to let average idiots get into shooting matches over who took the last donut."

It's not even that and your risk of being killed in a mass shooting are so low as to eb insignificant

The best way to stop a mass shooting is to not let people with guns into a building.

One more time, guy. We are already there. We have metal detectors, security guards, key cards, surveillance cameras, all because you guys have a gun fetish. the rest of us never agreed to this. this is certainly not what the Founding fathers envisioned. (They were talking about well-regulated militias, not this craziness).

Yet the premise of this thread is "Wouldn't it be cool if all the kids had guns and started shooting back!"

What school had all those things?

ANd I have never said anything about children owning guns

 

[candycorn]

And if he didn't have a car he couldn't have gotten to the campus.......

600 million guns, one guy uses one gun illegally...and you want to ban all guns....

Are we going to have another spooge here?

He could have gotten to campus just fine without a car, but he couldn't have done a mass shooting without a gun.

If you can't ban the crazies from getting guns without banning all guns, (which seems to be what you are saying), then really, I don't have a problem with banning all guns.

Meanwhile...cars killed over 38,000 people and they kill about that many every single year, so according to your logic they need to be banned for everyone.....

Cars aren't designed to kill people... guns are.

And on that logic, to drive a car, I have to be licensed, insured, registered, have my vehicle safety checked and there are thousands of cops out there keeping an eye on it. If I want a bigger vehicle, I need a higher class of licence.

Let's regulate guns like that.

First cars are brought up as a surrogate argument for how safe guns are by comparison. So when you suggest we treat cars like guns which would be the logical inference...the same douche bag that brought it up in the first place says you can't do it.

 

[Blues Man]

If the bad guy didn't have a gun, there is a thought. If wishes were horses, dreamers would ride.