If Hobby Lobby wins...

[ClosedCaption]

Again that is not true. Anyone who reads anything about it can tell you its not about Abortificants[sic] its[sic] about what they BELIEVE abortificants[sic] to be DISPITE[sic] scientific evidence that they are wrong.

The usual hysterical, misspelled claims... and the usual complete lack of any evidence or backup.

The leftist fanatics are trying, as usual, to change the definition of "abortion", just as they have tried and failed to change the definition of "marriage", and even tried and failed to change the definition of "is".

But the Plan B pill can, in fact, produce abortions by the widely-accepted definition. And all the leftsts' screaming "BUT THAT'S NOT REALLY AN ABORTION!!!" won't change that fact.

These leftist fanatics are SO futile in their nutty viewpoints.....

Right. So I'll post this again and maybe you'll scream "no facts"

Based on the belief that a fertilized egg is a person, some religious groups and conservative politicians say disrupting a fertilized egg’s ability to attach to the uterus is abortion, “the moral equivalent of homicide,” as Dr. Donna Harrison, who directs research for the American Association of Pro-life Obstetricians and Gynecologists, put it. Mitt Romney recently called emergency contraceptives “abortive pills.” And two former Republican presidential candidates, Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum, have made similar statements.

But an examination by The New York Times has found that the federally approved labels and medical Web sites do not reflect what the science shows. Studies have not established that emergency contraceptive pills prevent fertilized eggs from implanting in the womb, leading scientists say. Rather, the pills delay ovulation, the release of eggs from ovaries that occurs before eggs are fertilized, and some pills also thicken cervical mucus so sperm have trouble swimming.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/h...ion-science-suggests.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[WillowTree]

Then whats stopping them from requiring everyone to say the lords prayer before work? Or have a certain diet?

Could any other owner force his beliefs on his employees in other ways? Could the owner who doesnt believe in prescription meds opt out of it all together and argue for "natural healing" methods? Could a vegan make their stores meat free? Even their employees lunches?

Where does it stop? Or a better question, WHAT makes it stop?

Hobby lobby just needs to employ part time workers. End of controversy!

 

[Uncensored2008]

I'm not convinced that their insurance bill will actually go down even if they win.

Retreating to a straw man.

Do you have any proof that it would?

ROFL

Not even a worthy try.

 

[manifold]

Anyone who has ever dealt with workplace health plans knows that it's not typical to get into the kind of minutia that HL is engaging in... We want our health plan to cover these drugs, but not these...

It's quite possible that at the end of the day, having a customized plan could end up costing them more.

So please, SFTU about them only wanting to not have to PAY for abortions.

I hope they win, but I don't have to lie to myself in order to get there.

 

[Freewill]

They're not abortion pills and thats the point

You are mistaken: Kyle Duncan, general counsel for the Becket Fund, who is defending Hobby Lobby in the HHS lawsuit, [said] that although he does not know exactly what transpired at the company's headquarters, he has read the petition.

"The petition is misleading. It makes it seem as if Hobby Lobby is seeking to exclude birth control from its health plan all together. That's just not true. The Green family and Hobby Lobby do not have any religious objection to birth control per se. Their plans have covered preventive contraceptives and will continue to do so," Duncan said.

"What Hobby Lobby objects to and the reason they sued is because the HHS mandate forces Hobby Lobby to include a specific kind of drug," he explained.

The drugs are called Plan B and Levonelle, otherwise known as "the morning-after pill" and "the week-after pill."

"For many people, [the pills] are not even considered birth control because the way they operate is to prevent the implantation of an egg in the womb. For millions of Americans that take the traditional Christian view that life begins at conception, that amounts to an early abortion," Duncan said. "The petition totally misses that and instead says that 'Hobby Lobby is denying women birth control and therefore denying health care.' So, the premise of the petition is wrong."
Read more at snopes.com: Hobby Lobby Lawsuit Against Emergency Contraceptives Mandate

Do you see what happened there? There is no facts that its an abortion or an abortificant its simply a belief that it is and if they believe something is (no matter what facts say) they have a religious right to oppose it even if its not true.

The statement tries to mention "millions" and "traditional" instead of Factual. Thats how you know they are pulling a fast one. Either it is or it isnt. Are we going to listen to what the facts are or what they believe the facts are?

OMG, you have been shown to be absolutely wrong and yet you double down. Why must winning be such a criteria to the liberal left?

YOU were saying they were denying birth control, you have been shown that is incorrect.

Now you change your story, not surprising.

 

[Uncensored2008]

How would they even know if one of their employees had an abortion?

Read for content!

HL will not PAY for abortions. What the employee does is up to the employee.

I'm not convinced that their insurance bill will actually go down even if they win.

Do you have any proof that it would?

What the fuck are you yapping about?

HL will not spend funds to provide abortion - end of story.

Whether this lowers their costs is UTTERLY IRRELEVANT.

Logical fallacy doesn't help you.

"Being Dolphin free doesn't save Starkist money!" Who gives a fuck? That isn't the reason that they took the position.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Again that is not true. Anyone who reads anything about it can tell you its not about Abortificants its about what they BELIEVE abortificants to be DISPITE scientific evidence that they are wrong.

Therefore with Hobby Lobby they can simply label something anything they want no matter if its true or not then oppose that thing on religious grounds even if its NOT TRUE

No one cares what your definition of Plan B is - the FACT remains that Hobby Lobby pays for contraception, they simply will not pay for Plan B, because they view it as an abortificant.

You lack to the power to crush their civil rights and force them to knuckle under to your beliefs.

Better luck next time.

Again because someone believes a turd is a snickers dont make it a snickers

 

[ClosedCaption]

You are mistaken: Kyle Duncan, general counsel for the Becket Fund, who is defending Hobby Lobby in the HHS lawsuit, [said] that although he does not know exactly what transpired at the company's headquarters, he has read the petition.

"The petition is misleading. It makes it seem as if Hobby Lobby is seeking to exclude birth control from its health plan all together. That's just not true. The Green family and Hobby Lobby do not have any religious objection to birth control per se. Their plans have covered preventive contraceptives and will continue to do so," Duncan said.

"What Hobby Lobby objects to and the reason they sued is because the HHS mandate forces Hobby Lobby to include a specific kind of drug," he explained.

The drugs are called Plan B and Levonelle, otherwise known as "the morning-after pill" and "the week-after pill."

"For many people, [the pills] are not even considered birth control because the way they operate is to prevent the implantation of an egg in the womb. For millions of Americans that take the traditional Christian view that life begins at conception, that amounts to an early abortion," Duncan said. "The petition totally misses that and instead says that 'Hobby Lobby is denying women birth control and therefore denying health care.' So, the premise of the petition is wrong."
Read more at snopes.com: Hobby Lobby Lawsuit Against Emergency Contraceptives Mandate

Do you see what happened there? There is no facts that its an abortion or an abortificant its simply a belief that it is and if they believe something is (no matter what facts say) they have a religious right to oppose it even if its not true.

The statement tries to mention "millions" and "traditional" instead of Factual. Thats how you know they are pulling a fast one. Either it is or it isnt. Are we going to listen to what the facts are or what they believe the facts are?

OMG, you have been shown to be absolutely wrong and yet you double down. Why must winning be such a criteria to the liberal left?

YOU were saying they were denying birth control, you have been shown that is incorrect.

Now you change your story, not surprising.

Where am I wrong? They are denying birth control if we are believing scientist. Whos word are you going on? Maybe we should start there.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Again because someone believes a turd is a snickers dont make it a snickers

Who cares?

The problem YOU have is that you want to put a gun to their head and FORCE them to buy the turd - and you lack the power to pull it off.

5 years ago, everything was going your way. Obama was the ruler, civil rights were a thing of the past, the party would rule with an iron fist.

But then it all fell apart. Your god is a clown, laughed at by the world. Your war on civil rights has failed on every front, you can't even force Nuns in Colorado to have abortions. Now Hobby Lobby won't let YOU decide how to spend their money, even though you know how to spend it better than they....

 

[Ame®icano]

Then whats stopping them from requiring everyone to say the lords prayer before work? Or have a certain diet?

Could any other owner force his beliefs on his employees in other ways? Could the owner who doesnt believe in prescription meds opt out of it all together and argue for "natural healing" methods? Could a vegan make their stores meat free? Even their employees lunches?

Where does it stop? Or a better question, WHAT makes it stop?

Slavery has been outlawed. Business do not own employees and can't force them to do anything.

Can't?

What about requirement to stop smoking or risk losing job? Most of hospitals did just that, shifted from smoking ban to smoker ban.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Then whats stopping them from requiring everyone to say the lords prayer before work? Or have a certain diet?

Could any other owner force his beliefs on his employees in other ways? Could the owner who doesnt believe in prescription meds opt out of it all together and argue for "natural healing" methods? Could a vegan make their stores meat free? Even their employees lunches?

Where does it stop? Or a better question, WHAT makes it stop?

Slavery has been outlawed. Business do not own employees and can't force them to do anything.

Can't?

What about requirement to stop smoking or risk losing job? Most of hospitals did just that, shifted from smoking ban to smoker ban.

No they CANT

YOU make the choice to work there.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Then whats stopping them from requiring everyone to say the lords prayer before work? Or have a certain diet?

Could any other owner force his beliefs on his employees in other ways? Could the owner who doesnt believe in prescription meds opt out of it all together and argue for "natural healing" methods? Could a vegan make their stores meat free? Even their employees lunches?

Where does it stop? Or a better question, WHAT makes it stop?

Slavery has been outlawed. Business do not own employees and can't force them to do anything.

Can't?

What about requirement to stop smoking or risk losing job? Most of hospitals did just that, shifted from smoking ban to smoker ban.

I've not heard of this, but if it's true, someone has an opportunity to make a fortune in a lawsuit.

The most they can legally do is prohibit smoking on the premises.

 

[Ame®icano]

Then whats stopping them from requiring everyone to say the lords prayer before work? Or have a certain diet?

Could any other owner force his beliefs on his employees in other ways? Could the owner who doesnt believe in prescription meds opt out of it all together and argue for "natural healing" methods? Could a vegan make their stores meat free? Even their employees lunches?

Where does it stop? Or a better question, WHAT makes it stop?

It's only a matter of time before the government mandates dietary requirements.

The whole argument is stupid since most so called religious people use birth control, have sex outside of marriage and in general piss all over the ten commandments on a daily basis.

Maybe they do, maybe not. But its not your business. Btw, are they asking you or someone else to pay for their birth control?

 

[Spiderman]

Then whats stopping them from requiring everyone to say the lords prayer before work? Or have a certain diet?

Could any other owner force his beliefs on his employees in other ways? Could the owner who doesnt believe in prescription meds opt out of it all together and argue for "natural healing" methods? Could a vegan make their stores meat free? Even their employees lunches?

Where does it stop? Or a better question, WHAT makes it stop?

It's only a matter of time before the government mandates dietary requirements.

The whole argument is stupid since most so called religious people use birth control, have sex outside of marriage and in general piss all over the ten commandments on a daily basis.

That's exactly why the mandate is dangerous. In our 237 year history, we were never forced to buy a product or pay a penalty for not buying a product under the us constitution....until obamacare.

I agree with you.

No one should be mandated to buy insurance.

That does not mean I have to agree that the religious excuse is valid.

 

[manifold]

Read for content!

HL will not PAY for abortions. What the employee does is up to the employee.

I'm not convinced that their insurance bill will actually go down even if they win.

Do you have any proof that it would?

What the fuck are you yapping about?

HL will not spend funds to provide abortion - end of story.

Whether this lowers their costs is UTTERLY IRRELEVANT.

Logical fallacy doesn't help you.

"Being Dolphin free doesn't save Starkist money!" Who gives a fuck? That isn't the reason that they took the position.

Perhaps you don't understand how health insurance works.

Insurance premiums are paid and healthcare coverage is provided. Hobby Lobby's desire to pick and choose what the insurance company will cover in this manner is not typical.

 

[Spiderman]

Well in that case since I think gay marriage is stupid it should not be allowed. Right?

Maybe you can explain to me how someone uses the excuse that the actions of another person makes it a sin on your part.

If you bake a cake for 2 gay people how are you committing a sin?

If you provide insurance and someone uses that insurance to buy birth control how are you committing a sin?

And if serving people who sin or employing people who sin is a sin in itself then prove to me that you never sin and you live your life 100% in accordance with whatever religious text you claim to be the word of god then maybe I'll believe your religious excuse to be valid.

I am not for anyone being forced to buy insurance but I still do not see how the actions third party constitute a personal sin

Because they would be an actice part of the action through the FORCE of the government.

It's like saying I gave a gun to a known murderer but I'm not responsible for what he does.

Only if you know he is going to use the gun to kill someone.

The employer is not privy to anything in the medical records of their employees.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Slavery has been outlawed. Business do not own employees and can't force them to do anything.

Can't?

What about requirement to stop smoking or risk losing job? Most of hospitals did just that, shifted from smoking ban to smoker ban.

I've not heard of this, but if it's true, someone has an opportunity to make a fortune in a lawsuit.

The most they can legally do is prohibit smoking on the premises.

It's true. My ex was told if she was discovered to be smoking or smell like smoke her job would be at risk.
I see no problem with it personally. If the employer doesn't want stinky people that should be their choice.

 

[Ame®icano]

It's only a matter of time before the government mandates dietary requirements.

The whole argument is stupid since most so called religious people use birth control, have sex outside of marriage and in general piss all over the ten commandments on a daily basis.

Let's apply your argument to obamacare since the very administration that created it is PISSING all over their own law and arbitrarily changing it without congressional approval.

Seems fitting

I'm not in favor of obama care i just think citing religious reasons is stupid.

I would want proof that the business owners never ever serve anyone who sins, or never ever sin themselves before i would give their excuse any credence at all.

Again, whom they serve is their business. Left want to force them into something they have constitutional right to refuse. All this is about rights and about government overstepping their powers.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Perhaps you don't understand how health insurance works.

Your straw man failed, so you'll try a red herring?

Insurance premiums are paid and healthcare coverage is provided. Hobby Lobby's desire to pick and choose what the insurance company will cover in this manner is not typical.

Who cares?

It has ZERO relevance.

 

[koshergrl]

No one can force beliefs on employees because no one is obligated to become the employee of someone else.

Heres the rub tho. What if more employers start imposing more "beliefs"? And a few turn to hundreds? The rule still applies that no one HAS to work there but many will have to work somewhere which means some will be exposed to it.

Does the worker lose their right to the CEO's belief?

Who said they can't purchase whatever form of medicine/medical care they can get a doc to prescribe?

Or work for a group that will provide it to them?

That's right. Nobody. They're perfectly welcome to buy their own...or work for some dope who will buy it for them.