Im ready to curb gun murders. Lets work together

[OldLady]

I imagine illegal guns are already banned. Legislate an effective ban of handguns and military style semi-automatics, then buy them back, then confiscate them whenever they're seen.

So seeing as gang members are the number two cause of high gun death, you want to ban guns form law abiding citizens. So, in essence, you aren't doing a goddamn thing about the actual problem?
Loon.

The only way to curb illegal guns is to curb the number of guns in circulation, period. Legal guns get rerouted to criminals. Less legal guns, less guns get rerouted.

So you don't think we are getting illegal guns from overseas?
Is there a solution to curb gun circulation without infringing on rights of law abiding people?

I don't think so, TN. However, in a complex society, "rights" come with responsibilities. When our country has the highest gun homicide rate of all civilized nations, perhaps it is time for everyone to take some responsibility for the innocents that are shot every day.

What does that have to do with us? You think we are alike enough to HONESTLY compare it?
We have over 330M here, we have a native urban culture, so many differences to list.
It isn't that black and white.
Its like people refer to socialist countries as having all this free shit and they do fine. Then you look at suicide rates and violent crime.. Its not black and white, its a Crayola 64 crayon pack.

Oh, it's black and white alright. No guns, no shootings. But it won't happen like that here because too many of you apparently feel it shouldn't, and this is a democracy. Although it is entirely defeating to have this discussion on USMB, with its conservative majority, I think a good part of the country may feel differently about it though. We'll see.

 

[Trump.Stamped]

Another point. Before making more "gun laws" enforce the ones we have, and deal with mental illness, which is rampant on the streets. Those things are going to be 1000x more effective than another law.

 

[OldLady]

Lets get to the bottom of the pandemic of suicides and gang violence with guns.
I am ready to solve this issue!
We obviously cant stop suicides. We could take their gun, but it will still happen. But we could take the gun, and they can use a knife and slit their throat. Or throw themselves in front of a bus. Maybe that's better? So there goes the number one cause of gun murder.
Gang violence. Most of them use illegal guns. So how do we curb that?
I don't want to hear no bullshit about background checks on private transactions or limited magazines or the same worn out clichés the gun grabbers use on a daily basis. Id like to work on ACTUAL solutions instead of reducing liberties for the majority of the country.
Lets work and ACTUALLY figure out a solution!
Whos with me?

As I've been yammering since literally the day I got here right between Jovan Belcher/Bob Costas and Sandy Hook --- it takes cultural change.

Throw laws at the problem and people who want to will go around those laws. Doesn't work. That's treating the symptom and ignoring the disease.

We hear of a Sandy Hook and we claim to be horrified. If that were true, if we truly were horrified, we wouldn't be living in a place where it would even occur to the Lanzas and the Klebolds and the Loughners and the Holmses to go out in public and emulate what they see on TV every night, what they see in every movie house, what they played with as kids. Because those would be horrifying too. We should be unable to watch a scene like that and then simply go to sleep as if nothing happened. We are a culture that worships guns and death and destruction and carnage, and that, the first step is to understand and acknowledge, is the disease.

You can never stop gun murder altogether. You can never stop cigarette smoking altogether either. But we drove the latter WAY down, not by throwing laws at it but by making it socially uncool. That's the direct approach.

I agree with that, except that until guns are not in every kitchen drawer and pocket, that approach is not going to work either. Along with making cigarettes uncool, we made them much more expensive, raised the legal age to buy them, and severely restricted where people can smoke in public. There was also a MASSIVE, concerted campaign to make it uncool at the same time. It still took decades. When the courts decided that the media needs to be free to spread such violent garbage to all and sundry, including children, under the guise of "freedom of speech," we lost all hope of making violence uncool. Censorship is too frightening a word in this country. We are basically anarchists at heart and I think we are going to have to try to approach the concept of social responsibility before we can even approach the influences of violence on our culture.

but cigs aren't a constitutional right.

You completely missed the gist of my post, didn't you?

 

[boilermaker55]

One of the first steps would be for the country as a majority realize that mental illness is an epidemic in the country and come to some consensus to treating it and paying for it with medical insurances.

Lets get to the bottom of the pandemic of suicides and gang violence with guns.
I am ready to solve this issue!
We obviously cant stop suicides. We could take their gun, but it will still happen. But we could take the gun, and they can use a knife and slit their throat. Or throw themselves in front of a bus. Maybe that's better? So there goes the number one cause of gun murder.
Gang violence. Most of them use illegal guns. So how do we curb that?
I don't want to hear no bullshit about background checks on private transactions or limited magazines or the same worn out clichés the gun grabbers use on a daily basis. Id like to work on ACTUAL solutions instead of reducing liberties for the majority of the country.
Lets work and ACTUALLY figure out a solution!
Whos with me?

 

[pismoe]

you really value a cops life that low?

What are you talking about?

Ah. You're happy to have a firearms homicide rate 20 times that of other developed nations as the price of easy access to firearms. Fair enough. Rather you than me.

-------------------------------------------- sure , its no big deal CNM !!

 

[cnm]

Guns are a constitutional right. How could we solve this without infringing on peoples rights?

The right to bear arms is already infringed. You can amend the constitution if you're squeamish about 'rights'. Just because you don't want to do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

 

[Auld Phart]

Guns are a constitutional right. How could we solve this without infringing on peoples rights?

The right to bear arms is already infringed. You can amend the constitution if you're squeamish about 'rights'. Just because you don't want to do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

The right to bear arms is already infringed.

explain

 

[ricechickie]

So seeing as gang members are the number two cause of high gun death, you want to ban guns form law abiding citizens. So, in essence, you aren't doing a goddamn thing about the actual problem?
Loon.

The only way to curb illegal guns is to curb the number of guns in circulation, period. Legal guns get rerouted to criminals. Less legal guns, less guns get rerouted.

So you don't think we are getting illegal guns from overseas?
Is there a solution to curb gun circulation without infringing on rights of law abiding people?

I don't think so, TN. However, in a complex society, "rights" come with responsibilities. When our country has the highest gun homicide rate of all civilized nations, perhaps it is time for everyone to take some responsibility for the innocents that are shot every day.

Frivolous gun laws have never worked and will never work, people that think they do are stupid people...

I'm not talking "frivolous." If I didn't know it was completely unrealistic to expect, I'd be advocating for the Australia solution. I'm talking full out get-rid-of-the-fucking-things, nothing frivolous about it. However, thanks to our violent and gun loving cowboys, frivolous is all we can hope for.

And we do have a 2nd Amendment. So, keep them, I say, but do background checks and register them.

 

[Pogo]

Lets get to the bottom of the pandemic of suicides and gang violence with guns.
I am ready to solve this issue!
We obviously cant stop suicides. We could take their gun, but it will still happen. But we could take the gun, and they can use a knife and slit their throat. Or throw themselves in front of a bus. Maybe that's better? So there goes the number one cause of gun murder.
Gang violence. Most of them use illegal guns. So how do we curb that?
I don't want to hear no bullshit about background checks on private transactions or limited magazines or the same worn out clichés the gun grabbers use on a daily basis. Id like to work on ACTUAL solutions instead of reducing liberties for the majority of the country.
Lets work and ACTUALLY figure out a solution!
Whos with me?

We don't have to reinvent the wheel. Many other countries have their gun problem under control. Would we have to give up some of our privacy to achieve this goal, as they did in Japan? Yes, we would but Japan also has a zero percent murder rate. (The Japan lesson: Can America learn from the country that has almost zero gun deaths?)
But people give up their privacy willingly on Facebook and other internet sites every single day. So it wouldn't be a major shift.

Guns are a constitutional right. How could we solve this without infringing on peoples rights?

The conflict is that public safety is already a human people's right. Where there is a conflict, my right to live shoots down Gun Freak's right to play with fire.

 

[cnm]

-------------------------------------------- sure , its no big deal CNM !!

You're welcome to it. Seems barbarous to me that people feel they have to carry firearms to defend themselves on a trip out shopping. Not my idea of civilisation.

 

[Flash]

Excellent question.

I think the real hard core answer is to come down hard on the gangs and drug trade that produces the violence. How you do that without taking away Liberty is the $64 question.

Legalize cocaine, marijuana, crack, heroin and the whole she bang. Then you could buy your illicit drugs at Walmart for $5.99 instead paying hundreds of dollars to a thug. If you are hooked then you don't have to rob as many people to buy the drugs because it only costs $5.99. The clerk at Walmart wouldn't shoot you for seeing the transaction go down.

Make no mistake about it. Drugs are illegal on purpose. It has the opposite objective of keeping people safe. The objective is to make drug transactions as violent as possible. The violence of the drug trade makes competition highly unlikely. If you take the violence out of drugs then you take the profit out of it. Drugs are illegal on purpose. There are powerful people in your community that are making crazy money off of illegal drugs. You probably sit next to them in Sunday School. They are probably your local mechanic. They are probably members of your city council. They could even be your pastor. Duping the masses into advocating drug laws is a part of their business plan. If we rebelled against these thugs and legalized all illicit drugs then these thugs would be pissed off.

I agree that illegal drugs causes a lot of problems. You are correct in your analysis.

However, I also think that making the mind altering drugs legal will lead to another even more significant kinds of problems. We are already pretty screwed up with the millions of addicts in this country. All we need are tens of millions more that would come with legalization.

Like I said, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[cnm]

explain

No calibres above .50 except antique and black powder for one infringement. The constitution doesn't mention that. Why shouldn't you have 20mm cannon without a great deal of fuss?

 

[TNHarley]

So seeing as gang members are the number two cause of high gun death, you want to ban guns form law abiding citizens. So, in essence, you aren't doing a goddamn thing about the actual problem?
Loon.

The only way to curb illegal guns is to curb the number of guns in circulation, period. Legal guns get rerouted to criminals. Less legal guns, less guns get rerouted.

So you don't think we are getting illegal guns from overseas?
Is there a solution to curb gun circulation without infringing on rights of law abiding people?

I don't think so, TN. However, in a complex society, "rights" come with responsibilities. When our country has the highest gun homicide rate of all civilized nations, perhaps it is time for everyone to take some responsibility for the innocents that are shot every day.

What does that have to do with us? You think we are alike enough to HONESTLY compare it?
We have over 330M here, we have a native urban culture, so many differences to list.
It isn't that black and white.
Its like people refer to socialist countries as having all this free shit and they do fine. Then you look at suicide rates and violent crime.. Its not black and white, its a Crayola 64 crayon pack.

Oh, it's black and white alright. No guns, no shootings. But it won't happen like that here because too many of you apparently feel it shouldn't, and this is a democracy. Although it is entirely defeating to have this discussion on USMB, with its conservative majority, I think a good part of the country may feel differently about it though. We'll see.

Its not black and white when you compare it to other countries. There are variables. Basic math..
Of course if there was no guns, there would be no shootings. Probably a lot of sword fighting and fertilizer bombing, though. Lol
But this country has second amendment rights. They don't. Honestly, its completely moot, anyways.

 

[TNHarley]

Guns are a constitutional right. How could we solve this without infringing on peoples rights?

The right to bear arms is already infringed. You can amend the constitution if you're squeamish about 'rights'. Just because you don't want to do it doesn't mean it can't be done.

So you believe in two wrongs make a right? Interesting.

 

[TNHarley]

-------------------------------------------- sure , its no big deal CNM !!

You're welcome to it. Seems barbarous to me that people feel they have to carry firearms to defend themselves on a trip out shopping. Not my idea of civilisation.

the problem with civilization is the uncivilized.

 

[ricechickie]

The only way to curb illegal guns is to curb the number of guns in circulation, period. Legal guns get rerouted to criminals. Less legal guns, less guns get rerouted.

So you don't think we are getting illegal guns from overseas?
Is there a solution to curb gun circulation without infringing on rights of law abiding people?

I don't think so, TN. However, in a complex society, "rights" come with responsibilities. When our country has the highest gun homicide rate of all civilized nations, perhaps it is time for everyone to take some responsibility for the innocents that are shot every day.

What does that have to do with us? You think we are alike enough to HONESTLY compare it?
We have over 330M here, we have a native urban culture, so many differences to list.
It isn't that black and white.
Its like people refer to socialist countries as having all this free shit and they do fine. Then you look at suicide rates and violent crime.. Its not black and white, its a Crayola 64 crayon pack.

Oh, it's black and white alright. No guns, no shootings. But it won't happen like that here because too many of you apparently feel it shouldn't, and this is a democracy. Although it is entirely defeating to have this discussion on USMB, with its conservative majority, I think a good part of the country may feel differently about it though. We'll see.

Its not black and white when you compare it to other countries. There are variables. Basic math..
Of course if there was no guns, there would be no shootings. Probably a lot of sword fighting and fertilizer bombing, though. Lol
But this country has second amendment rights. They don't. Honestly, its completely moot, anyways.

Everyone remembers the McDonalds sword mass murders of the 1500s.

 

[TNHarley]

Lets get to the bottom of the pandemic of suicides and gang violence with guns.
I am ready to solve this issue!
We obviously cant stop suicides. We could take their gun, but it will still happen. But we could take the gun, and they can use a knife and slit their throat. Or throw themselves in front of a bus. Maybe that's better? So there goes the number one cause of gun murder.
Gang violence. Most of them use illegal guns. So how do we curb that?
I don't want to hear no bullshit about background checks on private transactions or limited magazines or the same worn out clichés the gun grabbers use on a daily basis. Id like to work on ACTUAL solutions instead of reducing liberties for the majority of the country.
Lets work and ACTUALLY figure out a solution!
Whos with me?

As I've been yammering since literally the day I got here right between Jovan Belcher/Bob Costas and Sandy Hook --- it takes cultural change.

Throw laws at the problem and people who want to will go around those laws. Doesn't work. That's treating the symptom and ignoring the disease.

We hear of a Sandy Hook and we claim to be horrified. If that were true, if we truly were horrified, we wouldn't be living in a place where it would even occur to the Lanzas and the Klebolds and the Loughners and the Holmses to go out in public and emulate what they see on TV every night, what they see in every movie house, what they played with as kids. Because those would be horrifying too. We should be unable to watch a scene like that and then simply go to sleep as if nothing happened. We are a culture that worships guns and death and destruction and carnage, and that, the first step is to understand and acknowledge, is the disease.

You can never stop gun murder altogether. You can never stop cigarette smoking altogether either. But we drove the latter WAY down, not by throwing laws at it but by making it socially uncool. That's the direct approach.

I agree with that, except that until guns are not in every kitchen drawer and pocket, that approach is not going to work either. Along with making cigarettes uncool, we made them much more expensive, raised the legal age to buy them, and severely restricted where people can smoke in public. There was also a MASSIVE, concerted campaign to make it uncool at the same time. It still took decades. When the courts decided that the media needs to be free to spread such violent garbage to all and sundry, including children, under the guise of "freedom of speech," we lost all hope of making violence uncool. Censorship is too frightening a word in this country. We are basically anarchists at heart and I think we are going to have to try to approach the concept of social responsibility before we can even approach the influences of violence on our culture.

but cigs aren't a constitutional right.

You completely missed the gist of my post, didn't you?

Nope. I just felt like it was comparing apples to oranges.
Public shame guns is fine. That's your constitutional right.
But raising taxes to keep people from expressing their right is like a poll tax at the voting booth.

 

[OldLady]

The only way to curb illegal guns is to curb the number of guns in circulation, period. Legal guns get rerouted to criminals. Less legal guns, less guns get rerouted.

So you don't think we are getting illegal guns from overseas?
Is there a solution to curb gun circulation without infringing on rights of law abiding people?

I don't think so, TN. However, in a complex society, "rights" come with responsibilities. When our country has the highest gun homicide rate of all civilized nations, perhaps it is time for everyone to take some responsibility for the innocents that are shot every day.

Frivolous gun laws have never worked and will never work, people that think they do are stupid people...

I'm not talking "frivolous." If I didn't know it was completely unrealistic to expect, I'd be advocating for the Australia solution. I'm talking full out get-rid-of-the-fucking-things, nothing frivolous about it. However, thanks to our violent and gun loving cowboys, frivolous is all we can hope for.

And we do have a 2nd Amendment. So, keep them, I say, but do background checks and register them.

That will help curb illegal guns, the experts say. The 2nd amendment can be honored by allowing hunting rifles for protecting livestock from critters and in a pinch to use for self protection. Or shooting at government soldiers, as some say this amendment was designed to protect. If our Founding Fathers were to study the problem today, they might have made their language on this a bit more clear.

 

[TNHarley]

So you don't think we are getting illegal guns from overseas?
Is there a solution to curb gun circulation without infringing on rights of law abiding people?

I don't think so, TN. However, in a complex society, "rights" come with responsibilities. When our country has the highest gun homicide rate of all civilized nations, perhaps it is time for everyone to take some responsibility for the innocents that are shot every day.

What does that have to do with us? You think we are alike enough to HONESTLY compare it?
We have over 330M here, we have a native urban culture, so many differences to list.
It isn't that black and white.
Its like people refer to socialist countries as having all this free shit and they do fine. Then you look at suicide rates and violent crime.. Its not black and white, its a Crayola 64 crayon pack.

Oh, it's black and white alright. No guns, no shootings. But it won't happen like that here because too many of you apparently feel it shouldn't, and this is a democracy. Although it is entirely defeating to have this discussion on USMB, with its conservative majority, I think a good part of the country may feel differently about it though. We'll see.

Its not black and white when you compare it to other countries. There are variables. Basic math..
Of course if there was no guns, there would be no shootings. Probably a lot of sword fighting and fertilizer bombing, though. Lol
But this country has second amendment rights. They don't. Honestly, its completely moot, anyways.

Everyone remembers the McDonalds sword mass murders of the 1500s.

you probably do

 

[Auld Phart]

explain

No calibres above .50 except antique and black powder for one infringement. The constitution doesn't mention that. Why shouldn't you have 20mm cannon without a great deal of fuss?

Why shouldn't you have 20mm cannon without a great deal of fuss?

Same reason I laugh when someone brings up owning a nuke

Armament and ordinance, not arms, involved