Is Government the problem...or the scapegoat?

[Skull Pilot]

The rants are "government is the problem" then Republicans take over government, break it and then say "see".

actually that's the rant our Founders used to create our Constitution.

No it wasn't. The Founding Fathers were not "anti-government" or they wouldn't have worked so hard to set one up.

If you don't like our basic principles why not move to Cuba while its still liberal communist and so very very poor?

You know dickweed, I served this country and swore an OATH on its Constitution. I think I'll fucking stay and continue to work towards making MY country a better place.

But the founders took great pains to keep a muzzle on the rabid dog that is government.

We have let that rabid dog off its leash.

 

[Gadawg73]

WE ARE THE PROBLEM
Americans want a government check when they retire and free health care.
They support NO CUTS to Medicaid, Medicare or Social Security which are all out of control or soon will be.
They want their "entitlements" and someone else's program to be cut.

 

[Seawytch]

actually that's the rant our Founders used to create our Constitution.

No it wasn't. The Founding Fathers were not "anti-government" or they wouldn't have worked so hard to set one up.

If you don't like our basic principles why not move to Cuba while its still liberal communist and so very very poor?

You know dickweed, I served this country and swore an OATH on its Constitution. I think I'll fucking stay and continue to work towards making MY country a better place.

But the founders took great pains to keep a muzzle on the rabid dog that is government.

We have let that rabid dog off its leash.

Oh baloney. The Government is working exactly as the framers intended. The same system of government is still in place. If you don't like the policies put into place, you still get to vote for someone else.

 

[Gadawg73]

No it wasn't. The Founding Fathers were not "anti-government" or they wouldn't have worked so hard to set one up.



You know dickweed, I served this country and swore an OATH on its Constitution. I think I'll fucking stay and continue to work towards making MY country a better place.

But the founders took great pains to keep a muzzle on the rabid dog that is government.

We have let that rabid dog off its leash.

Oh baloney. The Government is working exactly as the framers intended. The same system of government is still in place. If you don't like the policies put into place, you still get to vote for someone else.

High rate of taxation is what the framers fought.
Government is out of control. In Georgia the Republicans have doubled my license fees in 4 years.
Government is supposed to be limited. Federal government has no business in food stamps, education and many other assistance programs. If anything they are state's issues. Block grants to the states in desperate need I fully support.

 

[Seawytch]

But the founders took great pains to keep a muzzle on the rabid dog that is government.

We have let that rabid dog off its leash.

Oh baloney. The Government is working exactly as the framers intended. The same system of government is still in place. If you don't like the policies put into place, you still get to vote for someone else.

High rate of taxation is what the framers fought.
Government is out of control. In Georgia the Republicans have doubled my license fees in 4 years.
Government is supposed to be limited. Federal government has no business in food stamps, education and many other assistance programs. If anything they are state's issues. Block grants to the states in desperate need I fully support.

No, they fought taxation without representation.

Government is supposed to be what We the People make it. That's our system of government.

 

[Skull Pilot]

No it wasn't. The Founding Fathers were not "anti-government" or they wouldn't have worked so hard to set one up.



You know dickweed, I served this country and swore an OATH on its Constitution. I think I'll fucking stay and continue to work towards making MY country a better place.

But the founders took great pains to keep a muzzle on the rabid dog that is government.

We have let that rabid dog off its leash.

Oh baloney. The Government is working exactly as the framers intended. The same system of government is still in place. If you don't like the policies put into place, you still get to vote for someone else.

It's nowhere near the same.

I don't recall the founders forcing people to buy things with the threat of force.

 

[Seawytch]

This is exactly what I was referring to with the Republicans who say "government is the problem" then proceed to make it the problem.

North Carolina Appoints Pre-School Opponent To Head Pre-School Services

 

[editec]

.

It's a vicious circle. More and more people are conditioned to expect the government to fix things, to make their lives better. They vote for more government. They become further conditioned and condition the next generation. Slowly but surely it builds, and here we are.

The right wing seems to think they can somehow stop this process (and even roll it back) instantly, in one fell swoop. And that's where they're blowing it. This conditioning process took decades, generations now, and it can't be reversed overnight. And it will continue unless and until the GOP wakes up and treats government dependence as a longer-term cultural issue.

.

There are no welfare parasites larger than the six big banks that control the gopvernment.

Rolling those parasitic behemouths back is going to take a complete rethink about how our economic system works.

Do you have any idea, and how much money we have given CitiBank in the last 40 years?

We've bailed out the very people who pooched this economy.

Welfare didn't do that. Government spending didn't do that, Social Security didn['t do that.

The BANKS did that.

We've given them trillions of dollars. We gave them in the last 10 years more than all the wefare we have EVER given to every American who ever lived.

Wake up and smell the corporate welfare, citizens.

THAT is why this nation is going down the tubes.

 

[Seawytch]

But the founders took great pains to keep a muzzle on the rabid dog that is government.

We have let that rabid dog off its leash.

Oh baloney. The Government is working exactly as the framers intended. The same system of government is still in place. If you don't like the policies put into place, you still get to vote for someone else.

It's nowhere near the same.

I don't recall the founders forcing people to buy things with the threat of force.

You might not recall it since you probably weren't there. Had you been, you would have seen the the first Congress mandate (or in your words, force) that ship owners purchase health insurance for their seamen. That was 1790 and 20 of the original framers were members of Congress.

A later Congress, 1792, that still had 17 of the framers passed a law mandating the purchase of guns.

Don't "recall" that?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Oh baloney. The Government is working exactly as the framers intended. The same system of government is still in place. If you don't like the policies put into place, you still get to vote for someone else.

It's nowhere near the same.

I don't recall the founders forcing people to buy things with the threat of force.

You might not recall it since you probably weren't there. Had you been, you would have seen the the first Congress mandate (or in your words, force) that ship owners purchase health insurance for their seamen. That was 1790 and 20 of the original framers were members of Congress.

A later Congress, 1792, that still had 17 of the framers passed a law mandating the purchase of guns.

Don't "recall" that?

And what were the tax penalties if they didn't comply?

 

[Seawytch]

It's nowhere near the same.

I don't recall the founders forcing people to buy things with the threat of force.

You might not recall it since you probably weren't there. Had you been, you would have seen the the first Congress mandate (or in your words, force) that ship owners purchase health insurance for their seamen. That was 1790 and 20 of the original framers were members of Congress.

A later Congress, 1792, that still had 17 of the framers passed a law mandating the purchase of guns.

Don't "recall" that?

And what were the tax penalties if they didn't comply?

So now it's "shift the goalposts" time. You said you "didn't recall" the founders "forcing" people to buy shit. I just showed you when they did...TWICE, but that's not good enough?

If they didn't comply, they were court martialed. How's that for a fucking penalty?

 

[Skull Pilot]

You might not recall it since you probably weren't there. Had you been, you would have seen the the first Congress mandate (or in your words, force) that ship owners purchase health insurance for their seamen. That was 1790 and 20 of the original framers were members of Congress.

A later Congress, 1792, that still had 17 of the framers passed a law mandating the purchase of guns.

Don't "recall" that?

And what were the tax penalties if they didn't comply?

So now it's "shift the goalposts" time. You said you "didn't recall" the founders "forcing" people to buy shit. I just showed you when they did...TWICE, but that's not good enough?

If they didn't comply, they were court martialed. How's that for a fucking penalty?

You can't court martial a civilian

 

[Gadawg73]

Oh baloney. The Government is working exactly as the framers intended. The same system of government is still in place. If you don't like the policies put into place, you still get to vote for someone else.

High rate of taxation is what the framers fought.
Government is out of control. In Georgia the Republicans have doubled my license fees in 4 years.
Government is supposed to be limited. Federal government has no business in food stamps, education and many other assistance programs. If anything they are state's issues. Block grants to the states in desperate need I fully support.

No, they fought taxation without representation.

Government is supposed to be what We the People make it. That's our system of government.

No it is not that, exactly the opposite. Respectfully, you need a civics lesson and quick.
We The People supported discrimination against blacks, gays and many other folks.
We are NOT a nation of mob, majority rule as the Constitution protects the rights of THE INDIVIDUAL, not the majority and specifically states that.
We have a representative government that is supposed to go by The Constitution, NOT what the people want.
Now people are voting themselves a paycheck. de Tocqueville predicted this in the 1830s.

 

[g5000]

"Government", as Fox and the right wing love to make into a noun to hate, is NOT the problem. It is the scapegoat. We have many millions of miserable people in this country. They are angry, depressed, bitter, lonely, whatever. And a drug dealer....er, doctor, is more than happy to push a private sector profit tablet (pill) on them to fix it.

But as much as many say "If it werent for the dad gum gubmint, I'd have_______" (Fill in better life goal), would it REALLY be that much better/easier for them? REALLY? Doubtful. See, people dont realize that for what they pay in taxes, they get far more in return. Thats another thread altogether, but, its true. The people with the most wealth WOULD be the biggest targets of crime...and they'd need an entire group of bodyguards if not for law enforcement. Like old days, when kings and royalty had to take groups of armed men with them to protect them, or build castles.

Anyway, most people arent multi-milionaires. Most people pay a fair amount in taxes. Some people pay very little taxes, and those people live shitty lives. I wouldnt trade less taxes for their lives. Funny.

Seems the more people pay in taxes....the better standard of living they have. Hmmmmmm.

No, govt is not the problem. It is the scapegoat for misearble, bitter people who are emotionally bankrupt and have come to realize that more money doesnt mean more happiness.

Your perception of what people think about government would possibly gain some credibility if you could actually understand that it is not all one government. We don't pay taxes to the federal government to provide police protection. We pay taxes to state and local governments for those services.

Those of us who actually understand the structure, and different roles, of the various levels of government desire to keep it that way. I, for one, would like the federal government to return to the role given it by the Constitution. Perhaps, if our senators, congresspersons, and president focused on just those issues, they could actually do that job successfully

It surprises me there are still people out there who have no idea how much the federal government pays for your local police, firemen, and teachers.

 

[g5000]

I wonder how we got along before we had the FBI or the DEA? Somehow, we survived and thrived.

Actually we had private extra-legal security forces which were often as corrupt and lawbreaking as the criminals they were supposed to be pursuing.

 

[Gadawg73]

"Government", as Fox and the right wing love to make into a noun to hate, is NOT the problem. It is the scapegoat. We have many millions of miserable people in this country. They are angry, depressed, bitter, lonely, whatever. And a drug dealer....er, doctor, is more than happy to push a private sector profit tablet (pill) on them to fix it.

But as much as many say "If it werent for the dad gum gubmint, I'd have_______" (Fill in better life goal), would it REALLY be that much better/easier for them? REALLY? Doubtful. See, people dont realize that for what they pay in taxes, they get far more in return. Thats another thread altogether, but, its true. The people with the most wealth WOULD be the biggest targets of crime...and they'd need an entire group of bodyguards if not for law enforcement. Like old days, when kings and royalty had to take groups of armed men with them to protect them, or build castles.

Anyway, most people arent multi-milionaires. Most people pay a fair amount in taxes. Some people pay very little taxes, and those people live shitty lives. I wouldnt trade less taxes for their lives. Funny.

Seems the more people pay in taxes....the better standard of living they have. Hmmmmmm.

No, govt is not the problem. It is the scapegoat for misearble, bitter people who are emotionally bankrupt and have come to realize that more money doesnt mean more happiness.

Your perception of what people think about government would possibly gain some credibility if you could actually understand that it is not all one government. We don't pay taxes to the federal government to provide police protection. We pay taxes to state and local governments for those services.

Those of us who actually understand the structure, and different roles, of the various levels of government desire to keep it that way. I, for one, would like the federal government to return to the role given it by the Constitution. Perhaps, if our senators, congresspersons, and president focused on just those issues, they could actually do that job successfully

It surprises me there are still people out there who have no idea how much the federal government pays for your local police, firemen, and teachers.

And most of that river of borrowed $$$ is used for equipment that are nothing other than expensive toys.

 

[regent]

In democratic governments, special interest groups simply see government as a tool to put their programs into operation.
When this nation began the conservatives had control of the national governmnt and the liberals control of state governments, so in that early period, the liberal battle cry was, the national government is oppressive. Today the liberals have more control over the national government, so the battle cries are simply reversed, conservatives now cry the national government is oppressive. Nothing idelogical about it, just battle cries to help get control government so they can put their policies into operation.

 

[TakeAStepBack]

Government is the problem.

The Anatomy of the State by Murray N. Rothbard

The Anatomy of the State
by Murray N. Rothbard


What the State Is Not

The State is almost universally considered an institution of social service. Some theorists venerate the State as the apotheosis of society; others regard it as an amiable, though often inefficient, organization for achieving social ends; but almost all regard it as a necessary means for achieving the goals of mankind, a means to be ranged against the "private sector" and often winning in this competition of resources. With the rise of democracy, the identification of the State with society has been redoubled, until it is common to hear sentiments expressed which violate virtually every tenet of reason and common sense such as, "we are the government." The useful collective term "we" has enabled an ideological camouflage to be thrown over the reality of political life. If "we are the government," then anything a government does to an individual is not only just and untyrannical but also "voluntary" on the part of the individual concerned. If the government has incurred a huge public debt which must be paid by taxing one group for the benefit of another, this reality of burden is obscured by saying that "we owe it to ourselves"; if the government conscripts a man, or throws him into jail for dissident opinion, then he is "doing it to himself" and, therefore, nothing untoward has occurred. Under this reasoning, any Jews murdered by the Nazi government were not murdered; instead, they must have "committed suicide," since they were the government (which was democratically chosen), and, therefore, anything the government did to them was voluntary on their part. One would not think it necessary to belabor this point, and yet the overwhelming bulk of the people hold this fallacy to a greater or lesser degree.

We must, therefore, emphasize that "we" are not the government; the government is not "us." The government does not in any accurate sense "represent" the majority of the people.[1] But, even if it did, even if 70 percent of the people decided to murder the remaining 30 percent, this would still be murder and would not be voluntary suicide on the part of the slaughtered minority.[2] No organicist metaphor, no irrelevant bromide that "we are all part of one another," must be permitted to obscure this basic fact.

If, then, the State is not "us," if it is not "the human family" getting together to decide mutual problems, if it is not a lodge meeting or country club, what is it? Briefly, the State is that organization in society which attempts to maintain a monopoly of the use of force and violence in a given territorial area; in particular, it is the only organization in society that obtains its revenue not by voluntary contribution or payment for services rendered but by coercion. While other individuals or institutions obtain their income by production of goods and services and by the peaceful and voluntary sale of these goods and services to others, the State obtains its revenue by the use of compulsion; that is, by the use and the threat of the jailhouse and the bayonet.[3] Having used force and violence to obtain its revenue, the State generally goes on to regulate and dictate the other actions of its individual subjects. One would think that simple observation of all States through history and over the globe would be proof enough of this assertion; but the miasma of myth has lain so long over State activity that elaboration is necessary.

 

[Gadawg73]

.

It's a vicious circle. More and more people are conditioned to expect the government to fix things, to make their lives better. They vote for more government. They become further conditioned and condition the next generation. Slowly but surely it builds, and here we are.

The right wing seems to think they can somehow stop this process (and even roll it back) instantly, in one fell swoop. And that's where they're blowing it. This conditioning process took decades, generations now, and it can't be reversed overnight. And it will continue unless and until the GOP wakes up and treats government dependence as a longer-term cultural issue.

.

There are no welfare parasites larger than the six big banks that control the gopvernment.

Rolling those parasitic behemouths back is going to take a complete rethink about how our economic system works.

Do you have any idea, and how much money we have given CitiBank in the last 40 years?

We've bailed out the very people who pooched this economy.

Welfare didn't do that. Government spending didn't do that, Social Security didn['t do that.

The BANKS did that.

We've given them trillions of dollars. We gave them in the last 10 years more than all the wefare we have EVER given to every American who ever lived.

Wake up and smell the corporate welfare, citizens.

THAT is why this nation is going down the tubes.

Most all of the bailout $$$ to the banks was for protecting depositors funds.
Ya know, ordinary Joe 6 pack kind of families.
Of course the river of anti capitalism rants is all the rage now. It worked for the moron sitting on his fanny in The White House now but the irony of it his team gave more bailout cash to business than ever before.
Fact is to those with a brain the banks paid back most all of the TARP cash except equity which is a different transaction as the government holds the stock options on that.
With interest. Their balance is the equity given to the government and with rising stock prices why would the government cash that equity in now?
Amazing that the very financial institutions that the liberal worships that also received bailout cash such as Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac HAVE NOT paid it all back.
But we never hear anything about that. Something about ideology first and facts 2nd.

 

[candycorn]

(rolling my eyes) Good god all of you leftwing armchair quarterbacks ascribe everything you can think of to us having lost the telection.


Give it up, we lost because there wasn't enough difference between Obama and Romney.

Less of our base voted this time than did when McCain was the nominee.....

Conservatives are tired of being given a choice to vote an Obamaniac or a Conservative light.

That's not anarchist behavior to demand a govt be responsible and accountable....to which we have neither. Not sure how you surmised that incorrect deduction.

"Screw the govt" is why. That exact attitude lost your side the election. So...you say "screw" the military? Your local cops? Your firemen? Your teachers? "Screw 'em"?????

A good parent demands their kids be "responsible and accountable". But they dont say "Screw my kids".

Your radical right wing side lost the election, and you folks are being brainwashed into an anti-government hatred that is leading you all down a dangerous path to extinction of your ideology.

Okay....how'd Romney get the nomination then?