I've heard it on here so much enough is enough

[JakeStarkey]

bigrebnc, the thread has been answered: you would have joined the King's army.

 

[Listening]

The liberals of the day were against KINGS. Not against running effective government through the votes of the people.

Look at the France(French revolution) late 18th century to understand that it was quite liberal.

Yep.

And what a glorious bloody revolution it was.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

First liberals on this board or some liberals claim that the founding fathers of this country were liberals. What I want to address is which liberal policy would the founders of America support?
Give their names and the policy.

It seems some have forgotten the topic of this thread. It seems to me some are trying to troll
Does the ideal that the founders were nothing close to what a modern day liberal is strike fear in the minds of liberals?

 

[ScienceRocks]

First liberals on this board or some liberals claim that the founding fathers of this country were liberals. What I want to address is which liberal policy would the founders of America support?
Give their names and the policy.

It seems some have forgotten the topic of this thread. It seems to me some are trying to troll
Does the ideal that the founders were nothing close to what a modern day liberal is strike fear in the minds of liberals?

Some of the founders did want a central bank and standing military...

Calling someone a troll is admitting you're the loser. A cough out.

 

[bripat9643]

There are a couple examples that I could give as to what you're looking for, but that's not really what people mean when they say the Fathers were "liberal".

"Liberal" and "conservative" have literal meanings that are different from their current political designations.

Yes, we know. A "liberal" in the 18th Century believes exactly what a modern conservative or libertarian believes today. A liberal today, on the other hand, believes what communists believe.

The founding fathers were "liberal" in the sense that they were "not opposed to new ideas or ways of behaving that are not traditional or widely accepted", and not "conservative" in the sense meaning "not liking or accepting changes or new ideas."

So a modern liberal is an 18 century conservative?

 

[bripat9643]

The founding fathers were so diverse in ideology and belief you could make a point of just about any political belief being supported by them.

Thomas Jefferson and John Adams in particular were practically political opposites.

Bullshit. Jefferson and Adams would both be consider "extreme" right-wingers today. The only one of the founders who differed in any significant way was Thomas Paine. He was the only socialist in the group. The rest were all die-hard supporters of private property and free enterprise.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

There are a couple examples that I could give as to what you're looking for, but that's not really what people mean when they say the Fathers were "liberal".

"Liberal" and "conservative" have literal meanings that are different from their current political designations.

The founding fathers were "liberal" in the sense that they were "not opposed to new ideas or ways of behaving that are not traditional or widely accepted", and not "conservative" in the sense meaning "not liking or accepting changes or new ideas."

That's exactly what I mean some liberals on here think the founders are equal to modern day liberals. and would support the policies of modern day liberals.

They are and they would.

As with liberals today, it was the Framers’ original intent that the principles of freedom and individual liberty enshrined in the Constitution remain inclusive of all persons, where no class is subject to disadvantage.

As Justice Kennedy correctly observed in Lawrence:

Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in its manifold possibilities, they might have been more specific. They did not presume to have this insight. They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress. As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom.

LAWRENCE V. TEXAS

It was the Lawrence Court that invalidated so-called ‘anti-sodomy’ laws that rendered homosexuality illegal, laws enacted and supported by conservatives hostile to the civil liberties of gay Americans, just as conservatives continue to seek to deny same-sex couples their civil liberties.

Clearly liberal advocacy of civil rights for homosexuals and same-sex couples is in keeping with the desire of the Framers that individual liberty should be comprehensive and safeguarded by the Constitution and its case law, and why it is indeed accurate to perceive the Framers as liberal in the current, modern context.

 

[bripat9643]

There are a couple examples that I could give as to what you're looking for, but that's not really what people mean when they say the Fathers were "liberal".

"Liberal" and "conservative" have literal meanings that are different from their current political designations.

The founding fathers were "liberal" in the sense that they were "not opposed to new ideas or ways of behaving that are not traditional or widely accepted", and not "conservative" in the sense meaning "not liking or accepting changes or new ideas."

That's exactly what I mean some liberals on here think the founders are equal to modern day liberals. and would support the policies of modern day liberals.

And some conservatives here think the founders are equal to modern day conservatives, and would support the policies of modern day conservatives.

Both views are idiotic.

Nope. That is exactly the case.

 

[Listening]

The founding fathers of the day allowed for all types of political opinions.

What the sought to do was to allow people to conduct their affairs at the lowest level of government possible.

Hence they didn't want the federal government setting rules for all 6 million people (something the size of Arizona).

If New York wants to be liberal, they'd be happy to allow it to be liberal.

If New York wanted South Carolina to help New York be liberal (by having the fed tax them and pass it up the coast), they tell New York to take a hike.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

First liberals on this board or some liberals claim that the founding fathers of this country were liberals. What I want to address is which liberal policy would the founders of America support?
Give their names and the policy.

It seems some have forgotten the topic of this thread. It seems to me some are trying to troll
Does the ideal that the founders were nothing close to what a modern day liberal is strike fear in the minds of liberals?

Some of the founders did want a central bank and standing military...

Calling someone a troll is admitting you're the loser. A cough out.

No calling someone a troll is when they post BS

Now as for the standing army? there are so many way I could address this.
Liberals are not pro military
and no the founders did not want a standing army. thats why they created the second amendment.
I've conceded Hamilton to the liberal side. can you name another?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

There are a couple examples that I could give as to what you're looking for, but that's not really what people mean when they say the Fathers were "liberal".

"Liberal" and "conservative" have literal meanings that are different from their current political designations.

The founding fathers were "liberal" in the sense that they were "not opposed to new ideas or ways of behaving that are not traditional or widely accepted", and not "conservative" in the sense meaning "not liking or accepting changes or new ideas."

That's exactly what I mean some liberals on here think the founders are equal to modern day liberals. and would support the policies of modern day liberals.

They are and they would.

As with liberals today, it was the Framers’ original intent that the principles of freedom and individual liberty enshrined in the Constitution remain inclusive of all persons, where no class is subject to disadvantage.

As Justice Kennedy correctly observed in Lawrence:

Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in its manifold possibilities, they might have been more specific. They did not presume to have this insight. They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress. As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom.

LAWRENCE V. TEXAS

It was the Lawrence Court that invalidated so-called ‘anti-sodomy’ laws that rendered homosexuality illegal, laws enacted and supported by conservatives hostile to the civil liberties of gay Americans, just as conservatives continue to seek to deny same-sex couples their civil liberties.

Clearly liberal advocacy of civil rights for homosexuals and same-sex couples is in keeping with the desire of the Framers that individual liberty should be comprehensive and safeguarded by the Constitution and its case law, and why it is indeed accurate to perceive the Framers as liberal in the current, modern context.

\oh yeah the founders supported guy rights that's why they have it written in the bill of rights under the BULLSHIT CLAUSE.

 

[bripat9643]

First liberals on this board or some liberals claim that the founding fathers of this country were liberals. What I want to address is which liberal policy would the founders of America support?
Give their names and the policy.

Public education...central government. .


And I win..go back to eating your crayons.

That would rule out Thomas Jefferson since he didn't support a central government.

 

[bripat9643]

Some reactionaries mistakenly believe that the founders are equal to modern day far right TeaPs and reactionaries. and would support the policies of modern day reactionaries.

And don't try that TeaPs and reactionaries are "classical liberals". Nup, they are tories.

Yes, the Founders wanted limited government, maximum personal liberty, and freedom from burdensome taxation.

NOTHING like the TEA Party.

Oh, wait...

No they wanted a central power base and never actually followed through with a limited government.
But hey why let facts get in the way.

Oh puhleeze. That has to be the dumbest post of the month.

 

[william the wie]

Yes, the Founders wanted limited government, maximum personal liberty, and freedom from burdensome taxation.

NOTHING like the TEA Party.

Oh, wait...

No they wanted a central power base and never actually followed through with a limited government.
But hey why let facts get in the way.

Oh puhleeze. That has to be the dumbest post of the month.

Hyperbole or inattention, rdean beats that mark almost every post.

 

[kiwiman127]

There are a couple examples that I could give as to what you're looking for, but that's not really what people mean when they say the Fathers were "liberal".

"Liberal" and "conservative" have literal meanings that are different from their current political designations.

The founding fathers were "liberal" in the sense that they were "not opposed to new ideas or ways of behaving that are not traditional or widely accepted", and not "conservative" in the sense meaning "not liking or accepting changes or new ideas."

By that definition, today's liberals are some of the most un-liberal (or is that illiberal?) people you will encounter.

Given that they cling so desperately to a Medicare, Medicaid and Great Society welfare mindset stuck in the 1960s, the New Dealer quasi-socialism rooted in the 1940s, central banking and progressive income taxation rooted in the 19-teens, and an education system rooted in an early Industrial Revolution model, they look more and more like the Torries that the revolutionaries overthrew back in the 18th century.

Actually, a majority of conservatives, moderates and liberals all love their Medicare and Social Security.

 

[hunarcy]

No they wanted a central power base and never actually followed through with a limited government.
But hey why let facts get in the way.

If that were the case, why did they create a federalist constitution which shared power between the States and the Federal government?

 

[bodecea]

First liberals on this board or some liberals claim that the founding fathers of this country were liberals. What I want to address is which liberal policy would the founders of America support?
Give their names and the policy.

Freedom of Religion...very liberal at that time
Freedom of Speech...very liberal at that time
Freedom of the Press...very liberal at that time.
Freedom of Assembly...very liberal at that time.
Freedom of Petition...very liberal at that time.
No monarchy, leaders elected for a period of time then no longer leaders...very liberal at that time.

Just a few policies...and as for names....read the roster at the Constitutional Convention.

 

[bodecea]

There are a couple examples that I could give as to what you're looking for, but that's not really what people mean when they say the Fathers were "liberal".

"Liberal" and "conservative" have literal meanings that are different from their current political designations.

The founding fathers were "liberal" in the sense that they were "not opposed to new ideas or ways of behaving that are not traditional or widely accepted", and not "conservative" in the sense meaning "not liking or accepting changes or new ideas."

That's exactly what I mean some liberals on here think the founders are equal to modern day liberals. and would support the policies of modern day liberals.

Who has said that....specifically?

 

[bodecea]

There are a couple examples that I could give as to what you're looking for, but that's not really what people mean when they say the Fathers were "liberal".

"Liberal" and "conservative" have literal meanings that are different from their current political designations.

Yes, we know. A "liberal" in the 18th Century believes exactly what a modern conservative or libertarian believes today. A liberal today, on the other hand, believes what communists believe.

The founding fathers were "liberal" in the sense that they were "not opposed to new ideas or ways of behaving that are not traditional or widely accepted", and not "conservative" in the sense meaning "not liking or accepting changes or new ideas."

So a modern liberal is an 18 century conservative?

As much and as little as a Democrat in 1860 believes as a Democrat does today.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

It was the original intent of the Framers, as correctly understood and expressed by liberals today, that the laws of the Federal government are supreme, and that the Federal Constitution (in the context of its case law) is the supreme law of the land, where the states and other jurisdictions are subject to Federal law and the decisions of the Federal courts:

It might be objected that because the States ratified the Constitution, the people can delegate power only through the States or by acting in their capacities as citizens of particular States. See post, at 2-3. But in McCulloch v. Maryland, the Court set forth its authoritative rejection of this idea:

"The Convention which framed the constitution was indeed elected by the State legislatures. But the instrument . . . was submitted to the people. . . . It is true, they assembled in their several States--and where else should they have assembled? No political dreamer was ever wild enough to think of breaking down the lines which separate the States, and of compounding the American people into one common mass. Of consequence, when they act, they act in their States. But the measures they adopt do not, on that account, cease to be the measures of the people themselves, or become the measures of the State governments." 4 Wheat., at 403.

The political identity of the entire people of the Union is reinforced by the proposition, which I take to be beyond dispute, that, though limited as to its objects, the National Government is and must be controlled by the people without collateral interference by the States. McCulloch affirmed this proposition as well, when the Court rejected the suggestion that States could interfere with federal powers. "This was not intended by the American people. They did not design to make their government dependent on the States." Id., at 432. The States have no power, reserved or otherwise, over the exercise of federal authority within its proper sphere.

U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779 (1995).

In this, therefore, as with many other subjects, liberals today and those of the Foundation Era were of the same mind; the Framers were indeed liberal in their desire and intent to have a United States comprised of a single people, enjoying the benefits as citizens of a single Nation, subject to a single National government, not ‘citizens’ of a collection of states.