Jesus was right, of course.

[RodISHI]

Ever hear of a little something called the age of accountability? If a young child dies, they go to Heaven, because they are not old enough to know better. In a sense, they are still innocent. Things change when they are old enough to be held accountable for themselve and are able to understand the concepts in the Bible. Everyone who goes to Hell deserves to be there. God is the perfect Judge.

So, are you saying that nothing innocent can be dragged into hell by error or another? Just curious.

I'm saying that someone has to be old enough to be held accountable to God before thay can be judged. Old enough to know right from wrong and to understand what Gods word says about sin and redemption. That age varies from individual to individual.

Unfortunately, this cannot be true. The problem is, that even a toddler can do great harm albeit not by the same will mechanism as adults do. For example, toddlers were observed in hurting their baby siblings as a part of usual sibling competition. Whilst counting as innocent accident in a human court of law, universal logic dictates that it remains a collateral in God's world forever or until ... God decides to hear and act on prayers about it.

Children even are subjected to what transpires around them. A child can be subjected to the same evil spirits that a parent or someone they have been subjected to may possess.

This is true. And like the evil spirit itself, the child has thereby made himself an aspirant to hell. Although unlike evil spirits, the child can learn to pray and get a chance that his prayer gets heard by God. Maybe. But there is no such opportunity to anyone who rejects Christ.

Children pick up what is in their surroundings, whatever that may be. I prayed to God from the time I was very young, three even I can recall calling on God.

I know people with preconceived ideas in their heads desire to think that anyone not church saved is immediately destroy but the truth is that humans are created in the image of the first-born. As humans we are son of MAN yet we are also given the ability to become like the first-born of God the spiritual MAN. Until awakened those seeds given to be fruitful and multiply are living yet asleep in the dust of the earth. Have you ever seen ground dug up that still has viable seeds that were buried hundreds of years ago? I have.

 

[RWNJ]

Ever hear of a little something called the age of accountability? If a young child dies, they go to Heaven, because they are not old enough to know better. In a sense, they are still innocent. Things change when they are old enough to be held accountable for themselve and are able to understand the concepts in the Bible. Everyone who goes to Hell deserves to be there. God is the perfect Judge.

So, are you saying that nothing innocent can be dragged into hell by error or another? Just curious.

I'm saying that someone has to be old enough to be held accountable to God before thay can be judged. Old enough to know right from wrong and to understand what Gods word says about sin and redemption. That age varies from individual to individual.

Unfortunately, this cannot be true. The problem is, that even a toddler can do great harm albeit not by the same will mechanism as adults do. For example, toddlers were observed in hurting their baby siblings as a part of usual sibling competition. Whilst counting as innocent accident in a human court of law, universal logic dictates that it remains a collateral in God's world forever or until ... God decides to hear and act on prayers about it.

Like I said. A child cannot be held accountable until they are old enough to understand what they are doing. A childish temper tantrum might be a sin. But the child may not be old enough to understand what sin is or why it matters. until they are, they go to Heaven when they die, because they cannot be held accountable for their actions. Until they are old enough to understand the concepts of sin and redemption, they get a free pass.

This seems like a human only logic. So what happens to the collaterals? They don't just disappear. And humans certainly can't make things never happened. So your logic error is a gap that begs for an answer.

In order for someone to go to Hell, they must make a conscious decision to reject God. Would you agree with this? Now, if a child is unable to make that choice yet, what do you think would happen? Would God condemn them for not even realizing that there was a choice? I think not.

 

[anotherlife]

So, are you saying that nothing innocent can be dragged into hell by error or another? Just curious.

I'm saying that someone has to be old enough to be held accountable to God before thay can be judged. Old enough to know right from wrong and to understand what Gods word says about sin and redemption. That age varies from individual to individual.

Unfortunately, this cannot be true. The problem is, that even a toddler can do great harm albeit not by the same will mechanism as adults do. For example, toddlers were observed in hurting their baby siblings as a part of usual sibling competition. Whilst counting as innocent accident in a human court of law, universal logic dictates that it remains a collateral in God's world forever or until ... God decides to hear and act on prayers about it.

Children even are subjected to what transpires around them. A child can be subjected to the same evil spirits that a parent or someone they have been subjected to may possess.

This is true. And like the evil spirit itself, the child has thereby made himself an aspirant to hell. Although unlike evil spirits, the child can learn to pray and get a chance that his prayer gets heard by God. Maybe. But there is no such opportunity to anyone who rejects Christ.

You just made my point for me. One must be able to understand and make a choice to accept or reject God before they can be held accountable.

No, because if the child dies before he can pray then it is a fat chance that his collaterals will drag him to hell, like that evil spirit wants it. In that case it would be up to God to show discretion like you expect, but God doesn't have to and there is no way to tell ... except hope.

 

[anotherlife]

So, are you saying that nothing innocent can be dragged into hell by error or another? Just curious.

I'm saying that someone has to be old enough to be held accountable to God before thay can be judged. Old enough to know right from wrong and to understand what Gods word says about sin and redemption. That age varies from individual to individual.

Unfortunately, this cannot be true. The problem is, that even a toddler can do great harm albeit not by the same will mechanism as adults do. For example, toddlers were observed in hurting their baby siblings as a part of usual sibling competition. Whilst counting as innocent accident in a human court of law, universal logic dictates that it remains a collateral in God's world forever or until ... God decides to hear and act on prayers about it.

Children even are subjected to what transpires around them. A child can be subjected to the same evil spirits that a parent or someone they have been subjected to may possess.

This is true. And like the evil spirit itself, the child has thereby made himself an aspirant to hell. Although unlike evil spirits, the child can learn to pray and get a chance that his prayer gets heard by God. Maybe. But there is no such opportunity to anyone who rejects Christ.

Children pick up what is in their surroundings, whatever that may be. I prayed to God from the time I was very young, three even I can recall calling on God.

I know people with preconceived ideas in their heads desire to think that anyone not church saved is immediately destroy but the truth is that humans are created in the image of the first-born. As humans we are son of MAN yet we are also given the ability to become like the first-born of God the spiritual MAN. Until awakened those seeds given to be fruitful and multiply are living yet asleep in the dust of the earth. Have you ever seen ground dug up that still has viable seeds that were buried hundreds of years ago? I have.

Of course, if you can avoid doing things then you can get away even if not babtized, but nobody seems to be able to find anyone who can avoid doing things, even a monk.

 

[K9Buck]

But it does make sense. From the moment of your birth if not before, you cost collaterals till the day you die if not beyond. Minimizing those collaterals is the key to success, globally. Jesus Christ showed the most effective way to do that, by far.

Ok, I understand. I incurred debt to god from the day I am born due to god's failure to make me the way he wanted me, and will therefore spend eternity in agony to make up his his errors. Wow! that makes sense! However, it seems kind of harsh for god to be pissed off at something I did on my first birthday. He is going to kill me anyway. isn't that enough for him?

No because you are not the way that God wanted you to be when you were born or any other time.

Sounds like god screwed up, then. Then again, that isn't very surprising. Every living thing he ever created ends up dead.

Blaming God based on your own ideas can carry no objectivity, hence it is warned against in the Bible as well as in scientific reasoning. It is like blaming your car for the crash that you cause.

Yet, I am still completely amazed that you believe that an innocent child is already in need of redemption for sin. That makes no sense at all.

I'm probably wasting my time because I suspect you're one of those that thinks the universe came from nothing and that life created itself. We are all imperfect and born with the affliction of sin. We will be cured and purified of that sin before entering Jesus' kingdom.

 

[anotherlife]

So, are you saying that nothing innocent can be dragged into hell by error or another? Just curious.

I'm saying that someone has to be old enough to be held accountable to God before thay can be judged. Old enough to know right from wrong and to understand what Gods word says about sin and redemption. That age varies from individual to individual.

Unfortunately, this cannot be true. The problem is, that even a toddler can do great harm albeit not by the same will mechanism as adults do. For example, toddlers were observed in hurting their baby siblings as a part of usual sibling competition. Whilst counting as innocent accident in a human court of law, universal logic dictates that it remains a collateral in God's world forever or until ... God decides to hear and act on prayers about it.

Like I said. A child cannot be held accountable until they are old enough to understand what they are doing. A childish temper tantrum might be a sin. But the child may not be old enough to understand what sin is or why it matters. until they are, they go to Heaven when they die, because they cannot be held accountable for their actions. Until they are old enough to understand the concepts of sin and redemption, they get a free pass.

This seems like a human only logic. So what happens to the collaterals? They don't just disappear. And humans certainly can't make things never happened. So your logic error is a gap that begs for an answer.

In order for someone to go to Hell, they must make a conscious decision to reject God. Would you agree with this? Now, if a child is unable to make that choice yet, what do you think would happen? Would God condemn them for not even realizing that there was a choice? I think not.

I would like to hope for this, but how do you know. I had a girl who rabidly rejected Christ for years before she accepted Him, but to this day she prays constantly for foregiveness about that she rejected Him, so I am not sure.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

After you realize Trinitarians are not Christians, and realize the Vatican is the Great Whore of the Revelation, a lot falls into place.

"After you realize Trinitarians are not Christians, and realize the Vatican is the Great Whore of the Revelation, a lot falls into place."


Uh oh! looks like we got us some sectarian strife, here!!!! Sunnis say Shi'a are not Muslims, and vice versa. But I'll bet a smart guy like you calls them all "Muslims", amiright?

 

[RWNJ]

I'm saying that someone has to be old enough to be held accountable to God before thay can be judged. Old enough to know right from wrong and to understand what Gods word says about sin and redemption. That age varies from individual to individual.

Unfortunately, this cannot be true. The problem is, that even a toddler can do great harm albeit not by the same will mechanism as adults do. For example, toddlers were observed in hurting their baby siblings as a part of usual sibling competition. Whilst counting as innocent accident in a human court of law, universal logic dictates that it remains a collateral in God's world forever or until ... God decides to hear and act on prayers about it.

Like I said. A child cannot be held accountable until they are old enough to understand what they are doing. A childish temper tantrum might be a sin. But the child may not be old enough to understand what sin is or why it matters. until they are, they go to Heaven when they die, because they cannot be held accountable for their actions. Until they are old enough to understand the concepts of sin and redemption, they get a free pass.

This seems like a human only logic. So what happens to the collaterals? They don't just disappear. And humans certainly can't make things never happened. So your logic error is a gap that begs for an answer.

In order for someone to go to Hell, they must make a conscious decision to reject God. Would you agree with this? Now, if a child is unable to make that choice yet, what do you think would happen? Would God condemn them for not even realizing that there was a choice? I think not.

I would like to hope for this, but how do you know. I had a girl who rabidly rejected Christ for years before she accepted Him, but to this day she prays constantly for foregiveness about that she rejected Him, so I am not sure.

You only have to repent once. Why does she feel the need to repent repeatedly for the same thing?

 

[anotherlife]

Unfortunately, this cannot be true. The problem is, that even a toddler can do great harm albeit not by the same will mechanism as adults do. For example, toddlers were observed in hurting their baby siblings as a part of usual sibling competition. Whilst counting as innocent accident in a human court of law, universal logic dictates that it remains a collateral in God's world forever or until ... God decides to hear and act on prayers about it.

Like I said. A child cannot be held accountable until they are old enough to understand what they are doing. A childish temper tantrum might be a sin. But the child may not be old enough to understand what sin is or why it matters. until they are, they go to Heaven when they die, because they cannot be held accountable for their actions. Until they are old enough to understand the concepts of sin and redemption, they get a free pass.

This seems like a human only logic. So what happens to the collaterals? They don't just disappear. And humans certainly can't make things never happened. So your logic error is a gap that begs for an answer.

In order for someone to go to Hell, they must make a conscious decision to reject God. Would you agree with this? Now, if a child is unable to make that choice yet, what do you think would happen? Would God condemn them for not even realizing that there was a choice? I think not.

I would like to hope for this, but how do you know. I had a girl who rabidly rejected Christ for years before she accepted Him, but to this day she prays constantly for foregiveness about that she rejected Him, so I am not sure.

You only have to repent once. Why does she feel the need to repent repeatedly for the same thing?

Exactly. Does God decide to hear everyone for everything, all the time? How about some self serving prayer, like when imprisoned convicts suddenly decided to "find" Christ or old ghetto hoodie bullies suddenly decide to "regret" their sins?

 

[RodISHI]

I'm saying that someone has to be old enough to be held accountable to God before thay can be judged. Old enough to know right from wrong and to understand what Gods word says about sin and redemption. That age varies from individual to individual.

Unfortunately, this cannot be true. The problem is, that even a toddler can do great harm albeit not by the same will mechanism as adults do. For example, toddlers were observed in hurting their baby siblings as a part of usual sibling competition. Whilst counting as innocent accident in a human court of law, universal logic dictates that it remains a collateral in God's world forever or until ... God decides to hear and act on prayers about it.

Children even are subjected to what transpires around them. A child can be subjected to the same evil spirits that a parent or someone they have been subjected to may possess.

This is true. And like the evil spirit itself, the child has thereby made himself an aspirant to hell. Although unlike evil spirits, the child can learn to pray and get a chance that his prayer gets heard by God. Maybe. But there is no such opportunity to anyone who rejects Christ.

Children pick up what is in their surroundings, whatever that may be. I prayed to God from the time I was very young, three even I can recall calling on God.

I know people with preconceived ideas in their heads desire to think that anyone not church saved is immediately destroy but the truth is that humans are created in the image of the first-born. As humans we are son of MAN yet we are also given the ability to become like the first-born of God the spiritual MAN. Until awakened those seeds given to be fruitful and multiply are living yet asleep in the dust of the earth. Have you ever seen ground dug up that still has viable seeds that were buried hundreds of years ago? I have.

Of course, if you can avoid doing things then you can get away even if not babtized, but nobody seems to be able to find anyone who can avoid doing things, even a monk.

I have met some people who many would have never considered believers over the years but it is as it is written angels are brutes. There are those who are kept asleep to serve God's will be done. God rules the hearts of men (the hosts in humankind). We are the closest to God as children and the world attempts to steal us away as we are taught the ways of the world so we lose portions of the natural spiritual instincts in us as we seek to please in ways of the world. Do you recall the scriptures about the battle between Ahab and Jehoshaphat? A lying spirit stands before the Lord asking if it can go down and be a lying spirit in the mouth of Ahab's prophets so he will be enticed to go out to battle.

Baptism of the flesh and baptism of the holy spirit are not one in the same. The spirit can move without the flesh but if we show ourselves willing first by the flesh the spirit can move more freely within us to help guide us.

 

[RodISHI]

I'm saying that someone has to be old enough to be held accountable to God before thay can be judged. Old enough to know right from wrong and to understand what Gods word says about sin and redemption. That age varies from individual to individual.

Unfortunately, this cannot be true. The problem is, that even a toddler can do great harm albeit not by the same will mechanism as adults do. For example, toddlers were observed in hurting their baby siblings as a part of usual sibling competition. Whilst counting as innocent accident in a human court of law, universal logic dictates that it remains a collateral in God's world forever or until ... God decides to hear and act on prayers about it.

Like I said. A child cannot be held accountable until they are old enough to understand what they are doing. A childish temper tantrum might be a sin. But the child may not be old enough to understand what sin is or why it matters. until they are, they go to Heaven when they die, because they cannot be held accountable for their actions. Until they are old enough to understand the concepts of sin and redemption, they get a free pass.

This seems like a human only logic. So what happens to the collaterals? They don't just disappear. And humans certainly can't make things never happened. So your logic error is a gap that begs for an answer.

In order for someone to go to Hell, they must make a conscious decision to reject God. Would you agree with this? Now, if a child is unable to make that choice yet, what do you think would happen? Would God condemn them for not even realizing that there was a choice? I think not.

I would like to hope for this, but how do you know. I had a girl who rabidly rejected Christ for years before she accepted Him, but to this day she prays constantly for foregiveness about that she rejected Him, so I am not sure.

Shame is hard to overcome for many. That is also one of the reasons why a covering and a veil is given as the person grows in the spirit.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Sounds like god screwed up, then. Then again, that isn't very surprising. Every living thing he ever created ends up dead.

Blaming God based on your own ideas can carry no objectivity, hence it is warned against in the Bible as well as in scientific reasoning. It is like blaming your car for the crash that you cause.

Yet, I am still completely amazed that you believe that an innocent child is already in need of redemption for sin. That makes no sense at all.

Ever hear of a little something called the age of accountability? If a young child dies, they go to Heaven, because they are not old enough to know better. In a sense, they are still innocent. Things change when they are old enough to be held accountable for themselve and are able to understand the concepts in the Bible. Everyone who goes to Hell deserves to be there. God is the perfect Judge.

All very fascinating. now, all I need from you is the scripture that you rely on that backs up your belief that innocent children who die go straight to heaven.

First, why don't you show me Scripture that says they do? Scripture says that God is the perfect Judge who judges the heart. God would not send someone to hell if they are not old enough to comprehend the Gospel message of sin and redemption through Jesus Christ.

Scripture is very clear that in order to be "saved" one must accept Jesus Christ as his savior. Also, one must be "born again" in the spirit. A one year old child is capable of neither. As a matter of fact, My wife's first born was born dead, and had never been baptised, and the catholic church would not even bury it in consecrated ground back in 1970.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Ok, I understand. I incurred debt to god from the day I am born due to god's failure to make me the way he wanted me, and will therefore spend eternity in agony to make up his his errors. Wow! that makes sense! However, it seems kind of harsh for god to be pissed off at something I did on my first birthday. He is going to kill me anyway. isn't that enough for him?

No because you are not the way that God wanted you to be when you were born or any other time.

Sounds like god screwed up, then. Then again, that isn't very surprising. Every living thing he ever created ends up dead.

Blaming God based on your own ideas can carry no objectivity, hence it is warned against in the Bible as well as in scientific reasoning. It is like blaming your car for the crash that you cause.

Yet, I am still completely amazed that you believe that an innocent child is already in need of redemption for sin. That makes no sense at all.

What makes you think that a child is innocent? Who wrote that and where? At best it is an assumption. And a very weak one at that, as soon as you look what children usually do to each other. Nobody is innocent. You are only innocent if Christ says so. Assumption debunked.

What sin has any one year old child ever committed, that Jesus did not commit?

 

[Vandalshandle]

Sounds like god screwed up, then. Then again, that isn't very surprising. Every living thing he ever created ends up dead.

Blaming God based on your own ideas can carry no objectivity, hence it is warned against in the Bible as well as in scientific reasoning. It is like blaming your car for the crash that you cause.

Yet, I am still completely amazed that you believe that an innocent child is already in need of redemption for sin. That makes no sense at all.

Ever hear of a little something called the age of accountability? If a young child dies, they go to Heaven, because they are not old enough to know better. In a sense, they are still innocent. Things change when they are old enough to be held accountable for themselve and are able to understand the concepts in the Bible. Everyone who goes to Hell deserves to be there. God is the perfect Judge.

So, are you saying that nothing innocent can be dragged into hell by error or another? Just curious.

I'm saying that someone has to be old enough to be held accountable to God before thay can be judged. Old enough to know right from wrong and to understand what Gods word says about sin and redemption. That age varies from individual to individual.

And yet, there is nothing in the Bible that backs you up on that.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Ok, I understand. I incurred debt to god from the day I am born due to god's failure to make me the way he wanted me, and will therefore spend eternity in agony to make up his his errors. Wow! that makes sense! However, it seems kind of harsh for god to be pissed off at something I did on my first birthday. He is going to kill me anyway. isn't that enough for him?

No because you are not the way that God wanted you to be when you were born or any other time.

Sounds like god screwed up, then. Then again, that isn't very surprising. Every living thing he ever created ends up dead.

Blaming God based on your own ideas can carry no objectivity, hence it is warned against in the Bible as well as in scientific reasoning. It is like blaming your car for the crash that you cause.

Yet, I am still completely amazed that you believe that an innocent child is already in need of redemption for sin. That makes no sense at all.

I'm probably wasting my time because I suspect you're one of those that thinks the universe came from nothing and that life created itself. We are all imperfect and born with the affliction of sin. We will be cured and purified of that sin before entering Jesus' kingdom.

God created me, and I was born in sin? Sounds like god's error, not mine.

 

[K9Buck]

No because you are not the way that God wanted you to be when you were born or any other time.

Sounds like god screwed up, then. Then again, that isn't very surprising. Every living thing he ever created ends up dead.

Blaming God based on your own ideas can carry no objectivity, hence it is warned against in the Bible as well as in scientific reasoning. It is like blaming your car for the crash that you cause.

Yet, I am still completely amazed that you believe that an innocent child is already in need of redemption for sin. That makes no sense at all.

I'm probably wasting my time because I suspect you're one of those that thinks the universe came from nothing and that life created itself. We are all imperfect and born with the affliction of sin. We will be cured and purified of that sin before entering Jesus' kingdom.

God created me, and I was born in sin? Sounds like god's error, not mine.

I see your point. I don't pretend to have all the answers to God nor of the universe. You'll need an atheist for that.

 

[Vandalshandle]

I read page after page of religious philosophy on this thread, but, virtually no scriptures quoted to back it up. Sounds like of lot of folks are simply creating their own philosophy, rather than rely on the only source of Christian teachings that exists, which is the Bible.

 

[RodISHI]

I read page after page of religious philosophy on this thread, but, virtually no scriptures quoted to back it up. Sounds like of lot of folks are simply creating their own philosophy, rather than rely on the only source of Christian teachings that exists, which is the Bible.

Actually the bible is very clear about being a spiritual word and it talks about the dead and those who sleep in the dust of the earth.

Genesis 1:1 (KJV) as the dead
Genesis 1:1 (KJV) asleep

Genesis 1:1 (KJV) spirit and truth
Genesis 1:1 (KJV) by my spirit

 

[RWNJ]

No because you are not the way that God wanted you to be when you were born or any other time.

Sounds like god screwed up, then. Then again, that isn't very surprising. Every living thing he ever created ends up dead.

Blaming God based on your own ideas can carry no objectivity, hence it is warned against in the Bible as well as in scientific reasoning. It is like blaming your car for the crash that you cause.

Yet, I am still completely amazed that you believe that an innocent child is already in need of redemption for sin. That makes no sense at all.

What makes you think that a child is innocent? Who wrote that and where? At best it is an assumption. And a very weak one at that, as soon as you look what children usually do to each other. Nobody is innocent. You are only innocent if Christ says so. Assumption debunked.

What sin has any one year old child ever committed, that Jesus did not commit?

Uhh...Jesus never committed any sins.

 

[RWNJ]

Blaming God based on your own ideas can carry no objectivity, hence it is warned against in the Bible as well as in scientific reasoning. It is like blaming your car for the crash that you cause.

Yet, I am still completely amazed that you believe that an innocent child is already in need of redemption for sin. That makes no sense at all.

Ever hear of a little something called the age of accountability? If a young child dies, they go to Heaven, because they are not old enough to know better. In a sense, they are still innocent. Things change when they are old enough to be held accountable for themselve and are able to understand the concepts in the Bible. Everyone who goes to Hell deserves to be there. God is the perfect Judge.

So, are you saying that nothing innocent can be dragged into hell by error or another? Just curious.

I'm saying that someone has to be old enough to be held accountable to God before thay can be judged. Old enough to know right from wrong and to understand what Gods word says about sin and redemption. That age varies from individual to individual.

And yet, there is nothing in the Bible that backs you up on that.

First, people are accountable for their response to the witness of God in creation (Rom. 1:18f) and to the witness of God in the Bible and in the person of Christ (Acts 17:31). But second, since that response is based on one’s ability to comprehend and respond to the message, a person becomes personally accountable when he or she reaches a point where they have the spiritual and mental facility to grasp the issues. This does not mean they are not sinful, but only that they have not reached a place where they can understand.

Of course all men are born spiritually dead (without the natural ability to respond) and under the condemnation of sin, but Christ seeks to draw all men to Himself through the ministry of the Spirit and He bore that condemnation for man by His death on the cross. The accountable issue then is turning from self trust in good works or from apathy and a denial of accountability to God to trust in Christ (John 16:8f). It is significant that the Spirit’s ministry of convicting and giving demonstrable proof to men relates to their trust or rejection of Christ.

John 16:8-9. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; (emphasis mine).

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” (NIV)

But when does this accountability begin? Again, since the primary issue seems to be response to the revelation God has given, personal accountability would vary and depend on one’s ability to understand the most fundamental issues. In some, this might be very young, while in others it might be much older. I had a Christian friend who was a doctor and worked with severely retarded people. He said some seemed to grasp some of the issues but others simply could not. However, since Christ died for the world and paid the penalty for sin (1 John 2:2) and since the issue is one of responding to the revelation of God in creation (God consciousness) and in Christ, the issue seems to boil down to that point in time when one can understand and respond to the convicting work of the Spirit as described in Soteriology (Salvation)