Jesus was right, of course.

[Vandalshandle]

Sounds like god screwed up, then. Then again, that isn't very surprising. Every living thing he ever created ends up dead.

Blaming God based on your own ideas can carry no objectivity, hence it is warned against in the Bible as well as in scientific reasoning. It is like blaming your car for the crash that you cause.

Yet, I am still completely amazed that you believe that an innocent child is already in need of redemption for sin. That makes no sense at all.

What makes you think that a child is innocent? Who wrote that and where? At best it is an assumption. And a very weak one at that, as soon as you look what children usually do to each other. Nobody is innocent. You are only innocent if Christ says so. Assumption debunked.

What sin has any one year old child ever committed, that Jesus did not commit?

Uhh...Jesus never committed any sins.

That being the case, i am sure that you can tell me what my 1 year old grandchild did that was a sin, that Jesus did not do.

 

[RWNJ]

Blaming God based on your own ideas can carry no objectivity, hence it is warned against in the Bible as well as in scientific reasoning. It is like blaming your car for the crash that you cause.

Yet, I am still completely amazed that you believe that an innocent child is already in need of redemption for sin. That makes no sense at all.

What makes you think that a child is innocent? Who wrote that and where? At best it is an assumption. And a very weak one at that, as soon as you look what children usually do to each other. Nobody is innocent. You are only innocent if Christ says so. Assumption debunked.

What sin has any one year old child ever committed, that Jesus did not commit?

Uhh...Jesus never committed any sins.

That being the case, i am sure that you can tell me what my 1 year old grandchild did that was a sin, that Jesus did not do.

It doesn't matter. Even if someone was capable of living a life without sin, they would still go to hell unless they accept Jesus as their Savior.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Yet, I am still completely amazed that you believe that an innocent child is already in need of redemption for sin. That makes no sense at all.

Ever hear of a little something called the age of accountability? If a young child dies, they go to Heaven, because they are not old enough to know better. In a sense, they are still innocent. Things change when they are old enough to be held accountable for themselve and are able to understand the concepts in the Bible. Everyone who goes to Hell deserves to be there. God is the perfect Judge.

So, are you saying that nothing innocent can be dragged into hell by error or another? Just curious.

I'm saying that someone has to be old enough to be held accountable to God before thay can be judged. Old enough to know right from wrong and to understand what Gods word says about sin and redemption. That age varies from individual to individual.

And yet, there is nothing in the Bible that backs you up on that.

First, people are accountable for their response to the witness of God in creation (Rom. 1:18f) and to the witness of God in the Bible and in the person of Christ (Acts 17:31). But second, since that response is based on one’s ability to comprehend and respond to the message, a person becomes personally accountable when he or she reaches a point where they have the spiritual and mental facility to grasp the issues. This does not mean they are not sinful, but only that they have not reached a place where they can understand.

Of course all men are born spiritually dead (without the natural ability to respond) and under the condemnation of sin, but Christ seeks to draw all men to Himself through the ministry of the Spirit and He bore that condemnation for man by His death on the cross. The accountable issue then is turning from self trust in good works or from apathy and a denial of accountability to God to trust in Christ (John 16:8f). It is significant that the Spirit’s ministry of convicting and giving demonstrable proof to men relates to their trust or rejection of Christ.

John 16:8-9. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; (emphasis mine).

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” (NIV)

But when does this accountability begin? Again, since the primary issue seems to be response to the revelation God has given, personal accountability would vary and depend on one’s ability to understand the most fundamental issues. In some, this might be very young, while in others it might be much older. I had a Christian friend who was a doctor and worked with severely retarded people. He said some seemed to grasp some of the issues but others simply could not. However, since Christ died for the world and paid the penalty for sin (1 John 2:2) and since the issue is one of responding to the revelation of God in creation (God consciousness) and in Christ, the issue seems to boil down to that point in time when one can understand and respond to the convicting work of the Spirit as described in Soteriology (Salvation)

Sounds like a lot of gobbledygook to me. god created man, who is born in sin. Then, instead of just making that right, he sends his own son to an agonizing death, which was unnecessary, since the whole scenario was arranged by god in the first place, and could have been rearranged in any way that god wanted. Meantime, god tells us that he loves us so much that he will forgive us for the sin in which we were created (by god himself) if we will just repent and believe in him. But, of course, he is not going to reveal himself to us as proof, but rather wants us to trust some ancient philosophers from 2,000 to 3,000 years ago, of which we know nothing except what they tell us themselves. If we are not convinced that these writers of the Bible are not religious charlatans, then, in spite of how much god loves us, we will spend eternity in a fiery pit.

If anyone ever called me on the phone and tried to use this sales pitch for anything, I would instantly know that it is a scam.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Yet, I am still completely amazed that you believe that an innocent child is already in need of redemption for sin. That makes no sense at all.

What makes you think that a child is innocent? Who wrote that and where? At best it is an assumption. And a very weak one at that, as soon as you look what children usually do to each other. Nobody is innocent. You are only innocent if Christ says so. Assumption debunked.

What sin has any one year old child ever committed, that Jesus did not commit?

Uhh...Jesus never committed any sins.

That being the case, i am sure that you can tell me what my 1 year old grandchild did that was a sin, that Jesus did not do.

It doesn't matter. Even if someone was capable of living a life without sin, they would still go to hell unless they accept Jesus as their Savior.

Sounds like god has got quite a chip on his shoulder!

 

[RodISHI]

Blaming God based on your own ideas can carry no objectivity, hence it is warned against in the Bible as well as in scientific reasoning. It is like blaming your car for the crash that you cause.

Yet, I am still completely amazed that you believe that an innocent child is already in need of redemption for sin. That makes no sense at all.

What makes you think that a child is innocent? Who wrote that and where? At best it is an assumption. And a very weak one at that, as soon as you look what children usually do to each other. Nobody is innocent. You are only innocent if Christ says so. Assumption debunked.

What sin has any one year old child ever committed, that Jesus did not commit?

Uhh...Jesus never committed any sins.

That being the case, i am sure that you can tell me what my 1 year old grandchild did that was a sin, that Jesus did not do.

Born into sin...actually is talking about being born into a body of flesh which is sinful by nature. There are no original scriptures that state "born into sin" that is a precept of people who haven't reached a level of maturity in the spirit enough to understand the spirit.

 

[Vandalshandle]

Yet, I am still completely amazed that you believe that an innocent child is already in need of redemption for sin. That makes no sense at all.

What makes you think that a child is innocent? Who wrote that and where? At best it is an assumption. And a very weak one at that, as soon as you look what children usually do to each other. Nobody is innocent. You are only innocent if Christ says so. Assumption debunked.

What sin has any one year old child ever committed, that Jesus did not commit?

Uhh...Jesus never committed any sins.

That being the case, i am sure that you can tell me what my 1 year old grandchild did that was a sin, that Jesus did not do.

Born into sin...actually is talking about being born into a body of flesh which is sinful by nature. There are no original scriptures that state "born into sin" that is a precept of people who haven't reached a level of maturity in the spirit enough to understand the spirit.

Sounds like god is conflicted. He creates us, and puts us into a "body of flesh that is sinful by nature". First of all, why in the hell would he do that? Second, what is so sinful about the flesh? Does god have some sort of sexual hangup?

 

[RodISHI]

What makes you think that a child is innocent? Who wrote that and where? At best it is an assumption. And a very weak one at that, as soon as you look what children usually do to each other. Nobody is innocent. You are only innocent if Christ says so. Assumption debunked.

What sin has any one year old child ever committed, that Jesus did not commit?

Uhh...Jesus never committed any sins.

That being the case, i am sure that you can tell me what my 1 year old grandchild did that was a sin, that Jesus did not do.

Born into sin...actually is talking about being born into a body of flesh which is sinful by nature. There are no original scriptures that state "born into sin" that is a precept of people who haven't reached a level of maturity in the spirit enough to understand the spirit.

Sounds like god is conflicted. He creates us, and puts us into a "body of flesh that is sinful by nature". First of all, why in the hell would he do that? Second, what is so sinful about the flesh? Does god have some sort of sexual hangup?

God is not conflicted but humans manage to get that away easily. Yet even that is do to their own corrupt minds and ways. The sexual dysfunction must be a personal issue you have and will have to examine yourself for any sexually related issues.

 

[K9Buck]

I read page after page of religious philosophy on this thread, but, virtually no scriptures quoted to back it up. Sounds like of lot of folks are simply creating their own philosophy, rather than rely on the only source of Christian teachings that exists, which is the Bible.

I quoted scripture in the opening post.

 

[K9Buck]

Ever hear of a little something called the age of accountability? If a young child dies, they go to Heaven, because they are not old enough to know better. In a sense, they are still innocent. Things change when they are old enough to be held accountable for themselve and are able to understand the concepts in the Bible. Everyone who goes to Hell deserves to be there. God is the perfect Judge.

So, are you saying that nothing innocent can be dragged into hell by error or another? Just curious.

I'm saying that someone has to be old enough to be held accountable to God before thay can be judged. Old enough to know right from wrong and to understand what Gods word says about sin and redemption. That age varies from individual to individual.

And yet, there is nothing in the Bible that backs you up on that.

First, people are accountable for their response to the witness of God in creation (Rom. 1:18f) and to the witness of God in the Bible and in the person of Christ (Acts 17:31). But second, since that response is based on one’s ability to comprehend and respond to the message, a person becomes personally accountable when he or she reaches a point where they have the spiritual and mental facility to grasp the issues. This does not mean they are not sinful, but only that they have not reached a place where they can understand.

Of course all men are born spiritually dead (without the natural ability to respond) and under the condemnation of sin, but Christ seeks to draw all men to Himself through the ministry of the Spirit and He bore that condemnation for man by His death on the cross. The accountable issue then is turning from self trust in good works or from apathy and a denial of accountability to God to trust in Christ (John 16:8f). It is significant that the Spirit’s ministry of convicting and giving demonstrable proof to men relates to their trust or rejection of Christ.

John 16:8-9. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; (emphasis mine).

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” (NIV)

But when does this accountability begin? Again, since the primary issue seems to be response to the revelation God has given, personal accountability would vary and depend on one’s ability to understand the most fundamental issues. In some, this might be very young, while in others it might be much older. I had a Christian friend who was a doctor and worked with severely retarded people. He said some seemed to grasp some of the issues but others simply could not. However, since Christ died for the world and paid the penalty for sin (1 John 2:2) and since the issue is one of responding to the revelation of God in creation (God consciousness) and in Christ, the issue seems to boil down to that point in time when one can understand and respond to the convicting work of the Spirit as described in Soteriology (Salvation)

Sounds like a lot of gobbledygook to me. god created man, who is born in sin. Then, instead of just making that right, he sends his own son to an agonizing death, which was unnecessary, since the whole scenario was arranged by god in the first place, and could have been rearranged in any way that god wanted. Meantime, god tells us that he loves us so much that he will forgive us for the sin in which we were created (by god himself) if we will just repent and believe in him. But, of course, he is not going to reveal himself to us as proof, but rather wants us to trust some ancient philosophers from 2,000 to 3,000 years ago, of which we know nothing except what they tell us themselves. If we are not convinced that these writers of the Bible are not religious charlatans, then, in spite of how much god loves us, we will spend eternity in a fiery pit.

If anyone ever called me on the phone and tried to use this sales pitch for anything, I would instantly know that it is a scam.

fwiw, I'll share with you a few of my thoughts.

I believe we have a creator.
I believe the bible was inspired by our creator but, since it was written by men and later translate by other men into numerous editions, I don't personally know for a fact that every word of "the bible" is our creator's explicit word.
I believe in Jesus Christ.
I believe our creator made us out of love and that it was necessary for us to live a life here where evil and death exists in order for us to learn and grow spiritually. We are born imperfect meaning that, eventually, we are going to make sinful choices. I believe that, when we die, we meet Jesus and, hopefully, live in a better place in the hereafter.

I know many don't believe any of those things. Some of them will say there is no creator. To that I ask, then how did the universe come into existence? How was life created?

 

[K9Buck]

What makes you think that a child is innocent? Who wrote that and where? At best it is an assumption. And a very weak one at that, as soon as you look what children usually do to each other. Nobody is innocent. You are only innocent if Christ says so. Assumption debunked.

What sin has any one year old child ever committed, that Jesus did not commit?

Uhh...Jesus never committed any sins.

That being the case, i am sure that you can tell me what my 1 year old grandchild did that was a sin, that Jesus did not do.

It doesn't matter. Even if someone was capable of living a life without sin, they would still go to hell unless they accept Jesus as their Savior.

Sounds like god has got quite a chip on his shoulder!

Not really. One is free to follow him and accept the life he gave them or they can reject him and die into non-existence. No problem.

 

[Vandalshandle]

What sin has any one year old child ever committed, that Jesus did not commit?

Uhh...Jesus never committed any sins.

That being the case, i am sure that you can tell me what my 1 year old grandchild did that was a sin, that Jesus did not do.

Born into sin...actually is talking about being born into a body of flesh which is sinful by nature. There are no original scriptures that state "born into sin" that is a precept of people who haven't reached a level of maturity in the spirit enough to understand the spirit.

Sounds like god is conflicted. He creates us, and puts us into a "body of flesh that is sinful by nature". First of all, why in the hell would he do that? Second, what is so sinful about the flesh? Does god have some sort of sexual hangup?

God is not conflicted but humans manage to get that away easily. Yet even that is do to their own corrupt minds and ways. The sexual dysfunction must be a personal issue you have and will have to examine yourself for any sexually related issues.

so, then, what is so sinful about flesh?

 

[Vandalshandle]

So, are you saying that nothing innocent can be dragged into hell by error or another? Just curious.

I'm saying that someone has to be old enough to be held accountable to God before thay can be judged. Old enough to know right from wrong and to understand what Gods word says about sin and redemption. That age varies from individual to individual.

And yet, there is nothing in the Bible that backs you up on that.

First, people are accountable for their response to the witness of God in creation (Rom. 1:18f) and to the witness of God in the Bible and in the person of Christ (Acts 17:31). But second, since that response is based on one’s ability to comprehend and respond to the message, a person becomes personally accountable when he or she reaches a point where they have the spiritual and mental facility to grasp the issues. This does not mean they are not sinful, but only that they have not reached a place where they can understand.

Of course all men are born spiritually dead (without the natural ability to respond) and under the condemnation of sin, but Christ seeks to draw all men to Himself through the ministry of the Spirit and He bore that condemnation for man by His death on the cross. The accountable issue then is turning from self trust in good works or from apathy and a denial of accountability to God to trust in Christ (John 16:8f). It is significant that the Spirit’s ministry of convicting and giving demonstrable proof to men relates to their trust or rejection of Christ.

John 16:8-9. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; (emphasis mine).

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” (NIV)

But when does this accountability begin? Again, since the primary issue seems to be response to the revelation God has given, personal accountability would vary and depend on one’s ability to understand the most fundamental issues. In some, this might be very young, while in others it might be much older. I had a Christian friend who was a doctor and worked with severely retarded people. He said some seemed to grasp some of the issues but others simply could not. However, since Christ died for the world and paid the penalty for sin (1 John 2:2) and since the issue is one of responding to the revelation of God in creation (God consciousness) and in Christ, the issue seems to boil down to that point in time when one can understand and respond to the convicting work of the Spirit as described in Soteriology (Salvation)

Sounds like a lot of gobbledygook to me. god created man, who is born in sin. Then, instead of just making that right, he sends his own son to an agonizing death, which was unnecessary, since the whole scenario was arranged by god in the first place, and could have been rearranged in any way that god wanted. Meantime, god tells us that he loves us so much that he will forgive us for the sin in which we were created (by god himself) if we will just repent and believe in him. But, of course, he is not going to reveal himself to us as proof, but rather wants us to trust some ancient philosophers from 2,000 to 3,000 years ago, of which we know nothing except what they tell us themselves. If we are not convinced that these writers of the Bible are not religious charlatans, then, in spite of how much god loves us, we will spend eternity in a fiery pit.

If anyone ever called me on the phone and tried to use this sales pitch for anything, I would instantly know that it is a scam.

fwiw, I'll share with you a few of my thoughts.

I believe we have a creator.
I believe the bible was inspired by our creator but, since it was written by men and later translate by other men into numerous editions, I don't personally know for a fact that every word of "the bible" is our creator's explicit word.
I believe in Jesus Christ.
I believe our creator made us out of love and that it was necessary for us to live a life here where evil and death exists in order for us to learn and grow spiritually. We are born imperfect meaning that, eventually, we are going to make sinful choices. I believe that, when we die, we meet Jesus and, hopefully, live in a better place in the hereafter.

I know many don't believe any of those things. Some of them will say there is no creator. To that I ask, then how did the universe come into existence? How was life created?

To which I would reply, Who created god?

 

[K9Buck]

I'm saying that someone has to be old enough to be held accountable to God before thay can be judged. Old enough to know right from wrong and to understand what Gods word says about sin and redemption. That age varies from individual to individual.

And yet, there is nothing in the Bible that backs you up on that.

First, people are accountable for their response to the witness of God in creation (Rom. 1:18f) and to the witness of God in the Bible and in the person of Christ (Acts 17:31). But second, since that response is based on one’s ability to comprehend and respond to the message, a person becomes personally accountable when he or she reaches a point where they have the spiritual and mental facility to grasp the issues. This does not mean they are not sinful, but only that they have not reached a place where they can understand.

Of course all men are born spiritually dead (without the natural ability to respond) and under the condemnation of sin, but Christ seeks to draw all men to Himself through the ministry of the Spirit and He bore that condemnation for man by His death on the cross. The accountable issue then is turning from self trust in good works or from apathy and a denial of accountability to God to trust in Christ (John 16:8f). It is significant that the Spirit’s ministry of convicting and giving demonstrable proof to men relates to their trust or rejection of Christ.

John 16:8-9. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; (emphasis mine).

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” (NIV)

But when does this accountability begin? Again, since the primary issue seems to be response to the revelation God has given, personal accountability would vary and depend on one’s ability to understand the most fundamental issues. In some, this might be very young, while in others it might be much older. I had a Christian friend who was a doctor and worked with severely retarded people. He said some seemed to grasp some of the issues but others simply could not. However, since Christ died for the world and paid the penalty for sin (1 John 2:2) and since the issue is one of responding to the revelation of God in creation (God consciousness) and in Christ, the issue seems to boil down to that point in time when one can understand and respond to the convicting work of the Spirit as described in Soteriology (Salvation)

Sounds like a lot of gobbledygook to me. god created man, who is born in sin. Then, instead of just making that right, he sends his own son to an agonizing death, which was unnecessary, since the whole scenario was arranged by god in the first place, and could have been rearranged in any way that god wanted. Meantime, god tells us that he loves us so much that he will forgive us for the sin in which we were created (by god himself) if we will just repent and believe in him. But, of course, he is not going to reveal himself to us as proof, but rather wants us to trust some ancient philosophers from 2,000 to 3,000 years ago, of which we know nothing except what they tell us themselves. If we are not convinced that these writers of the Bible are not religious charlatans, then, in spite of how much god loves us, we will spend eternity in a fiery pit.

If anyone ever called me on the phone and tried to use this sales pitch for anything, I would instantly know that it is a scam.

fwiw, I'll share with you a few of my thoughts.

I believe we have a creator.
I believe the bible was inspired by our creator but, since it was written by men and later translate by other men into numerous editions, I don't personally know for a fact that every word of "the bible" is our creator's explicit word.
I believe in Jesus Christ.
I believe our creator made us out of love and that it was necessary for us to live a life here where evil and death exists in order for us to learn and grow spiritually. We are born imperfect meaning that, eventually, we are going to make sinful choices. I believe that, when we die, we meet Jesus and, hopefully, live in a better place in the hereafter.

I know many don't believe any of those things. Some of them will say there is no creator. To that I ask, then how did the universe come into existence? How was life created?

To which I would reply, Who created god?

Either there is a super-intellect out there (God) that has always existed and created everything or we're left to believe there is no God and that everything came from nothing. I'll go with the former.

 

[Vandalshandle]

What sin has any one year old child ever committed, that Jesus did not commit?

Uhh...Jesus never committed any sins.

That being the case, i am sure that you can tell me what my 1 year old grandchild did that was a sin, that Jesus did not do.

It doesn't matter. Even if someone was capable of living a life without sin, they would still go to hell unless they accept Jesus as their Savior.

Sounds like god has got quite a chip on his shoulder!

Not really. One is free to follow him and accept the life he gave them or they can reject him and die into non-existence. No problem.

And, all of that information is passed on to us by a lot of obscure Jews, for the most part, who wrote it all down two to three thousand years ago. Yet, All we have to do is turn on the TV, and see false prophets every day.

God has got to give me more evidence than that. In fact, it is my firm opinion that whoever wrote Revelations was insane.

 

[Vandalshandle]

And yet, there is nothing in the Bible that backs you up on that.

First, people are accountable for their response to the witness of God in creation (Rom. 1:18f) and to the witness of God in the Bible and in the person of Christ (Acts 17:31). But second, since that response is based on one’s ability to comprehend and respond to the message, a person becomes personally accountable when he or she reaches a point where they have the spiritual and mental facility to grasp the issues. This does not mean they are not sinful, but only that they have not reached a place where they can understand.

Of course all men are born spiritually dead (without the natural ability to respond) and under the condemnation of sin, but Christ seeks to draw all men to Himself through the ministry of the Spirit and He bore that condemnation for man by His death on the cross. The accountable issue then is turning from self trust in good works or from apathy and a denial of accountability to God to trust in Christ (John 16:8f). It is significant that the Spirit’s ministry of convicting and giving demonstrable proof to men relates to their trust or rejection of Christ.

John 16:8-9. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; (emphasis mine).

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” (NIV)

But when does this accountability begin? Again, since the primary issue seems to be response to the revelation God has given, personal accountability would vary and depend on one’s ability to understand the most fundamental issues. In some, this might be very young, while in others it might be much older. I had a Christian friend who was a doctor and worked with severely retarded people. He said some seemed to grasp some of the issues but others simply could not. However, since Christ died for the world and paid the penalty for sin (1 John 2:2) and since the issue is one of responding to the revelation of God in creation (God consciousness) and in Christ, the issue seems to boil down to that point in time when one can understand and respond to the convicting work of the Spirit as described in Soteriology (Salvation)

Sounds like a lot of gobbledygook to me. god created man, who is born in sin. Then, instead of just making that right, he sends his own son to an agonizing death, which was unnecessary, since the whole scenario was arranged by god in the first place, and could have been rearranged in any way that god wanted. Meantime, god tells us that he loves us so much that he will forgive us for the sin in which we were created (by god himself) if we will just repent and believe in him. But, of course, he is not going to reveal himself to us as proof, but rather wants us to trust some ancient philosophers from 2,000 to 3,000 years ago, of which we know nothing except what they tell us themselves. If we are not convinced that these writers of the Bible are not religious charlatans, then, in spite of how much god loves us, we will spend eternity in a fiery pit.

If anyone ever called me on the phone and tried to use this sales pitch for anything, I would instantly know that it is a scam.

fwiw, I'll share with you a few of my thoughts.

I believe we have a creator.
I believe the bible was inspired by our creator but, since it was written by men and later translate by other men into numerous editions, I don't personally know for a fact that every word of "the bible" is our creator's explicit word.
I believe in Jesus Christ.
I believe our creator made us out of love and that it was necessary for us to live a life here where evil and death exists in order for us to learn and grow spiritually. We are born imperfect meaning that, eventually, we are going to make sinful choices. I believe that, when we die, we meet Jesus and, hopefully, live in a better place in the hereafter.

I know many don't believe any of those things. Some of them will say there is no creator. To that I ask, then how did the universe come into existence? How was life created?

To which I would reply, Who created god?

Either there is a super-intellect out there (God) that has always existed and created everything or we're left to believe there is no God and that everything came from nothing. I'll go with the former.

One is just as much outside the human experience as the other. Beginnings and endings are human concepts, because all life is that way. That does not mean that the universe has to be that way. Matter and energy are interchangeable, but are neither created, nor destroyed.

 

[K9Buck]

God has got to give me more evidence than that. In fact, it is my firm opinion that whoever wrote Revelations was insane.

Love your neighbor and do unto others and believe in Jesus is pretty much all that we need.

BTW, Revelations was written by the apostle John. He might have been on an acid trip.

 

[K9Buck]

First, people are accountable for their response to the witness of God in creation (Rom. 1:18f) and to the witness of God in the Bible and in the person of Christ (Acts 17:31). But second, since that response is based on one’s ability to comprehend and respond to the message, a person becomes personally accountable when he or she reaches a point where they have the spiritual and mental facility to grasp the issues. This does not mean they are not sinful, but only that they have not reached a place where they can understand.

Of course all men are born spiritually dead (without the natural ability to respond) and under the condemnation of sin, but Christ seeks to draw all men to Himself through the ministry of the Spirit and He bore that condemnation for man by His death on the cross. The accountable issue then is turning from self trust in good works or from apathy and a denial of accountability to God to trust in Christ (John 16:8f). It is significant that the Spirit’s ministry of convicting and giving demonstrable proof to men relates to their trust or rejection of Christ.

John 16:8-9. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; (emphasis mine).

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” (NIV)

But when does this accountability begin? Again, since the primary issue seems to be response to the revelation God has given, personal accountability would vary and depend on one’s ability to understand the most fundamental issues. In some, this might be very young, while in others it might be much older. I had a Christian friend who was a doctor and worked with severely retarded people. He said some seemed to grasp some of the issues but others simply could not. However, since Christ died for the world and paid the penalty for sin (1 John 2:2) and since the issue is one of responding to the revelation of God in creation (God consciousness) and in Christ, the issue seems to boil down to that point in time when one can understand and respond to the convicting work of the Spirit as described in Soteriology (Salvation)

Sounds like a lot of gobbledygook to me. god created man, who is born in sin. Then, instead of just making that right, he sends his own son to an agonizing death, which was unnecessary, since the whole scenario was arranged by god in the first place, and could have been rearranged in any way that god wanted. Meantime, god tells us that he loves us so much that he will forgive us for the sin in which we were created (by god himself) if we will just repent and believe in him. But, of course, he is not going to reveal himself to us as proof, but rather wants us to trust some ancient philosophers from 2,000 to 3,000 years ago, of which we know nothing except what they tell us themselves. If we are not convinced that these writers of the Bible are not religious charlatans, then, in spite of how much god loves us, we will spend eternity in a fiery pit.

If anyone ever called me on the phone and tried to use this sales pitch for anything, I would instantly know that it is a scam.

fwiw, I'll share with you a few of my thoughts.

I believe we have a creator.
I believe the bible was inspired by our creator but, since it was written by men and later translate by other men into numerous editions, I don't personally know for a fact that every word of "the bible" is our creator's explicit word.
I believe in Jesus Christ.
I believe our creator made us out of love and that it was necessary for us to live a life here where evil and death exists in order for us to learn and grow spiritually. We are born imperfect meaning that, eventually, we are going to make sinful choices. I believe that, when we die, we meet Jesus and, hopefully, live in a better place in the hereafter.

I know many don't believe any of those things. Some of them will say there is no creator. To that I ask, then how did the universe come into existence? How was life created?

To which I would reply, Who created god?

Either there is a super-intellect out there (God) that has always existed and created everything or we're left to believe there is no God and that everything came from nothing. I'll go with the former.

One is just as much outside the human experience as the other. Beginnings and endings are human concept, because all life is that way. That does not mean that the universe has to be that way. Matter and energy is interchangeable, but is neither created, nor destroyed.

The expansion of the universe and the "big bang" point to a beginning. We also know that matter cannot create itself nor can it reproduce.

And, for me, there is a plethora of anecdotal evidence of a creator, of Jesus and an afterlife. Gravitational force, the expansion rate of the universe and a host of other particulars that are just right and if any of them were altered by a pittance, we couldn't exist. Seemingly countless people have shared their NDE's and I believe some of them.

 

[RodISHI]

Uhh...Jesus never committed any sins.

That being the case, i am sure that you can tell me what my 1 year old grandchild did that was a sin, that Jesus did not do.

Born into sin...actually is talking about being born into a body of flesh which is sinful by nature. There are no original scriptures that state "born into sin" that is a precept of people who haven't reached a level of maturity in the spirit enough to understand the spirit.

Sounds like god is conflicted. He creates us, and puts us into a "body of flesh that is sinful by nature". First of all, why in the hell would he do that? Second, what is so sinful about the flesh? Does god have some sort of sexual hangup?

God is not conflicted but humans manage to get that away easily. Yet even that is do to their own corrupt minds and ways. The sexual dysfunction must be a personal issue you have and will have to examine yourself for any sexually related issues.

so, then, what is so sinful about flesh?

How many years have people been greedy, killing, maiming and stealing from one another? If we live to merely the flesh in our own pleasures we have little regard for the spiritual damage we can cause one another. It degrades not only the eternal soul but also damages that love one another portion if we cannot find the spirit of God to help guide us.

 

[K9Buck]

That being the case, i am sure that you can tell me what my 1 year old grandchild did that was a sin, that Jesus did not do.

Born into sin...actually is talking about being born into a body of flesh which is sinful by nature. There are no original scriptures that state "born into sin" that is a precept of people who haven't reached a level of maturity in the spirit enough to understand the spirit.

Sounds like god is conflicted. He creates us, and puts us into a "body of flesh that is sinful by nature". First of all, why in the hell would he do that? Second, what is so sinful about the flesh? Does god have some sort of sexual hangup?

God is not conflicted but humans manage to get that away easily. Yet even that is do to their own corrupt minds and ways. The sexual dysfunction must be a personal issue you have and will have to examine yourself for any sexually related issues.

so, then, what is so sinful about flesh?

How many years have people been greedy, killing, maiming and stealing from one another? If we live to merely the flesh in our own pleasures we have little regard for the spiritual damage we can cause one another. It degrades not only the eternal soul but also damages that love one another portion if we cannot find the spirit of God to help guide us.

Atheist Soviet Union, atheist China, etc. are prime examples.

 

[Vandalshandle]

That being the case, i am sure that you can tell me what my 1 year old grandchild did that was a sin, that Jesus did not do.

Born into sin...actually is talking about being born into a body of flesh which is sinful by nature. There are no original scriptures that state "born into sin" that is a precept of people who haven't reached a level of maturity in the spirit enough to understand the spirit.

Sounds like god is conflicted. He creates us, and puts us into a "body of flesh that is sinful by nature". First of all, why in the hell would he do that? Second, what is so sinful about the flesh? Does god have some sort of sexual hangup?

God is not conflicted but humans manage to get that away easily. Yet even that is do to their own corrupt minds and ways. The sexual dysfunction must be a personal issue you have and will have to examine yourself for any sexually related issues.

so, then, what is so sinful about flesh?

How many years have people been greedy, killing, maiming and stealing from one another? If we live to merely the flesh in our own pleasures we have little regard for the spiritual damage we can cause one another. It degrades not only the eternal soul but also damages that love one another portion if we cannot find the spirit of God to help guide us.

So, without god, you would revert to depravity and immorality? How sad.