Kill The Profit Motive And You Kill Modern Medical Advances And Prosperity

[Cecilie1200]

What does your point, from the Business POV, have to do with the fact that "Genius will supposedly be discovered eventually"?

I hear all the time from Conservatives that "Inventors don't need multi-million dollars labs, all they need is a garage".
In fact, FoxNews tells us that all the time.
So does Limbaugh and Hannity.

Apparently, you are stating that they are incorrect.

I know you are a Libertarian and not a Conservative, so I would like your point of view on what appears be sound-bites.

Please quote anyone saying inventors dont need multi million dollar labs. ANother fact you made up out of thin air.

You obviously don't watch FoxNews or listen to CTR.
Good for you!
You know the pretty long haired brunette snot on the five?
Or that other British accented sound-bite idiot on Fox?
They say this all the time.

It's interesting that you appear to be the only one in this conversation who listens to Fox or talk radio, but you're constantly quoting them and trying to make US responsible for what they say.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Not horseshit.

Here are the facts: JAMA Network | JAMA | Is US Health Really the Best in the World?

The article is horseshit. None of the statistics mentioned measure the quality of healthcare. They measure the health of Americans, who are the fattest people in the world. Diabetes in America is endemic because we are so overweight. That alone will result in a drastic decrease in health. Heart disease is also a result of being overweight.

All the other measures have to do with infant mortality, and the way we measure it doesn't compare with the way European countries measure it. The main factors affecting early infant survival are birth weight and prematurity. The way that these factors are reported — and how such babies are treated statistically — tells a different story than what the numbers reveal.

Low birth weight infants are not counted against the “live birth” statistics for many countries reporting low infant mortality rates.

According to the way statistics are calculated in Canada, Germany, and Austria, a premature baby weighing <500g is not considered a living child.

But in the U.S., such very low birth weight babies are considered live births. The mortality rate of such babies — considered “unsalvageable” outside of the U.S. and therefore never alive — is extraordinarily high; up to 869 per 1,000 in the first month of life alone. This skews U.S. infant mortality statistics.

JAMA is a decidedly left-wing journal. It has an agenda to push. It doesn't care about the fact.

The health of Americans doesn't = the health care they receive.

That's your rebuttal? Are you kidding?

Life expectency is included in the statistics. Life expectency is the most important measure of the quality of health care. The U.S. lags far behind other countries.

According to the way statistics are calculated in Canada, Germany, and Austria, a premature baby weighing <500g is not considered a living child

Link the above statement or I call horseshit.

"Life expectency [sic] is the most important measure of the quality of health care"? According to whom? What proof do you have of THAT? Some leftist pinhead in the government or the UN telling you so? Do you have any idea of just how little effect healthcare systems in first-world countries have on life "expectency"? Or how much of the life "expectency" statistic for any given country involves things that have NOTHING to do with the healthcare system?

No, of course you don't. You're just a talking parrot, squawking repetitions from Obama's shoulder. Polly wanna cracker?

 

[RDD_1210]

Today I learned that adding more people on to private insurance plans is now considered socialized medicine.

So did the meaning of socialism change over the weekend and I didn't get an email about it?

Adding people to private plans using money redistributed from higher earners is socialized medicine. Further, forcing your plan to include people with pre-existing conditions without making them pay separately for their pre-existing issues is forcing the people on the plan to fund those people's known pre-existing conditions, thus re-distributing the costs of those issues to the people on the plan, which is most certainly socialized medicine. Your welcome.

That's called insurance pools. Sorry if you don't like it, but it's not a new concept.

 

[Indeependent]

Please quote anyone saying inventors dont need multi million dollar labs. ANother fact you made up out of thin air.

You obviously don't watch FoxNews or listen to CTR.
Good for you!
You know the pretty long haired brunette snot on the five?
Or that other British accented sound-bite idiot on Fox?
They say this all the time.

It's interesting that you appear to be the only one in this conversation who listens to Fox or talk radio, but you're constantly quoting them and trying to make US responsible for what they say.

Keep your friends close; keep your enemies closer.
I just listened to Ann Coulter talk for about 7 minutes on Mark Simone.
She's has the amazing gift of saying many words that contain zero content.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Salk had no right to patent the vaccine, so your claims are irrelevant.

"....nor did he earn any money from his discovery, preferring to see it distributed as widely as possible."

Weird how you ignored that part.

You lose....again.

It's bullshit. The March of Dimes funded his research, and therefore they owned the patent rights. They chose not to patent it because they are a charity.

If I remember correctly, they also paid him to do the research.

 

[RDD_1210]

Or Jonas Salk.

In the years after Salk's discovery, many supporters, in particular the National Foundation, "helped him build his dream of a research complex for the investigation of biological phenomena 'from cell to society'." Called the Salk Institute for Biological Studies, it opened in 1963 in the San Diego neighborhood of La Jolla. Salk believed that the institution would help new and upcoming scientists along in their careers, as he said himself, "I thought how nice it would be if a place like this existed and I was invited to work there." This was something that Salk was deprived of early in his life, but due to his achievements, was able to provide for future scientists.

In 1966, Salk described his "ambitious plan for the creation of a kind of Socratic academy where the supposedly alienated two cultures of science and humanism will have a favorable atmosphere for cross-fertilization."[64]

Yes, getting your own institute to achieve your dreams is totally the product of altruism.

Whatever Salk's motivations may have been, the motivations of the people who gave him the money for his work was profit . . . and don't ever think Salk didn't understand and use that.

Bzzzz wrong. But you've never been known to be very smart, so you get a pass this time.

 

[RDD_1210]

He'll give you some phosphate rich shithole in the Caribbean as some kind of proof. Of course it isnt. Then look at virtually every country in Africa, all of them basket cases. Even places like South Africa that were doing relatively well under white rule.

Duh!

Nelson Mandela easily comes to mind.

You are a racist shithead.

I had no idea Nelson Mandela was a city, state or country.
For the record, Mandela was a marxist who ran his country into the ground.
Your rep is returned in spades. You are an ignorant joke.


I see RDD has abandoned the discussion. I guess even he had to aknowledge he had nothign worthwhile to contribute here.

What else is there to say? You and BriPat have made it clear you're racists. I don't need to say anything else. You are what you are. Racist.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Here's what worries me the most about Obamacare. Socialized medicine means the end of all new wonder drugs and miracle medical treatments. No more breakthroughs like artificial joints, MRI machines, artificial hearts, artificial livers, Leukemia cures, etc.. The profit motive is what brought these innovations into existence. Obamacare will put an end to it.

Redirector

One of the hallmarks of socialism is its hostility toward and targeting for elimination of the “bourgeoisie”–the prosperous middle class, who pose an existential threat to the socialists/statists, in large part due to their relative economic autonomy. The fact that they are mostly capable of self-sufficiency and of running their own lives means they neither need nor want big-government central-planners micromanaging their every decision, and therefore the middle class must be decimated by the likes of Obama–even while Obama and his Democrat fellow-travelers hypocritically, falsely speak of “protecting the middle class,” “fighting for the middle class,” and “growing the middle class” in their cynical ploy to get middle class people to vote for more doomed Democrat policies.

Fortunately, some of the biggest lies of Obama and his party have now been realized by millions to be what they are–outright lies.

What is yet unfortunate is that the socialists have still largely succeeded in convincing so many that it is the profit motive of capitalism which is to blame for the alleged awfulness of income inequality, and the alleged awfulness of various other disparate outcomes upon which envy and class-conflict are based, that they think it is a viable campaign strategy for the upcoming mid-term elections.

And so, it is the same old badmouthing and attempt to eliminate the profit motive, which Obama and his fellow travelers have deployed in their destruction of our health care system–the abject economic horror known as Obamacare.

Yet that same profit motive is what has given modern medicine and pharmacology such marvelous breakthroughs over the last several decades, which is and has been in Obama’s cross hairs all along.

Socialized medicine regimes only barely limp along in other Western, developed economies such as Canada, Sweden, and Great Britain, with just enough marginally-satisfied customers to keep their populations from revolt (not to mention that numerous dead and dying recipients of inferior medical care delivery really can’t make much of a political peep, can they now?) only because the profit motive has still been somewhat alive in America in order to drive the innovations enjoyed by patients in the more socialist countries–countries which ride along on the coattails of our advances and revolutionary medical developments!

It is mainly due to the existence of the remnants of capitalism, and the research, development, and marketing activities of extremely competitive, profit-seeking enterprises (mostly here in the United States and wherever making a profit is still allowed), which have produced the miracle drugs and the space-age, mind-boggling medical technologies enjoyed by citizens throughout not only the developed world, but increasingly throughout the emerging economies and the third-world, even more and more.​

Profit or extreme profits are the only thing that makes people work to save other peoples lives in this life or world as we now know it ? Hmmm!

No, profit is what largely makes people FUND the work to save other people's lives.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Here's what worries me the most about Obamacare. Socialized medicine means the end of all new wonder drugs and miracle medical treatments. No more breakthroughs like artificial joints, MRI machines, artificial hearts, artificial livers, Leukemia cures, etc.. The profit motive is what brought these innovations into existence. Obamacare will put an end to it.

Redirector

One of the hallmarks of socialism is its hostility toward and targeting for elimination of the “bourgeoisie”–the prosperous middle class, who pose an existential threat to the socialists/statists, in large part due to their relative economic autonomy. The fact that they are mostly capable of self-sufficiency and of running their own lives means they neither need nor want big-government central-planners micromanaging their every decision, and therefore the middle class must be decimated by the likes of Obama–even while Obama and his Democrat fellow-travelers hypocritically, falsely speak of “protecting the middle class,” “fighting for the middle class,” and “growing the middle class” in their cynical ploy to get middle class people to vote for more doomed Democrat policies.

Fortunately, some of the biggest lies of Obama and his party have now been realized by millions to be what they are–outright lies.

What is yet unfortunate is that the socialists have still largely succeeded in convincing so many that it is the profit motive of capitalism which is to blame for the alleged awfulness of income inequality, and the alleged awfulness of various other disparate outcomes upon which envy and class-conflict are based, that they think it is a viable campaign strategy for the upcoming mid-term elections.

And so, it is the same old badmouthing and attempt to eliminate the profit motive, which Obama and his fellow travelers have deployed in their destruction of our health care system–the abject economic horror known as Obamacare.

Yet that same profit motive is what has given modern medicine and pharmacology such marvelous breakthroughs over the last several decades, which is and has been in Obama’s cross hairs all along.

Socialized medicine regimes only barely limp along in other Western, developed economies such as Canada, Sweden, and Great Britain, with just enough marginally-satisfied customers to keep their populations from revolt (not to mention that numerous dead and dying recipients of inferior medical care delivery really can’t make much of a political peep, can they now?) only because the profit motive has still been somewhat alive in America in order to drive the innovations enjoyed by patients in the more socialist countries–countries which ride along on the coattails of our advances and revolutionary medical developments!

It is mainly due to the existence of the remnants of capitalism, and the research, development, and marketing activities of extremely competitive, profit-seeking enterprises (mostly here in the United States and wherever making a profit is still allowed), which have produced the miracle drugs and the space-age, mind-boggling medical technologies enjoyed by citizens throughout not only the developed world, but increasingly throughout the emerging economies and the third-world, even more and more.​

Profit or extreme profits are the only thing that makes people work to save other peoples lives in this life or world as we now know it ? Hmmm!

It's not the only reason, but it is the reason in 99% of all cases where someone did something beneficial for mankind. I wouldn't have much faith in a system that relies on altruistic motives to produce a desired result. Any such system is doomed to failure.

Well, look at the differences in the amounts of money put toward medical research every year by charities versus the amount put toward it by industry. That pretty much tells the tale.

 

[Cecilie1200]

The medical arts have not traditionally been driven by the profit motive but by humanitarian compassion and the quest for scientific knowledge. The profit motive in healing arts has been the home of quacks and frauds seeking enrichment from human suffering.

Capitalism, which commoditizes everything it touches, has done nothing to change the situation. The vast bulk of medical research is socialized, conducted by government-funded agencies and non-profit universities. The pharmaceutical industry spends more on advertising and lobbying than it does on research.

What the profit motive has done to American medicine is double the cost while worsening outcomes. We now spend twice as much per capita on medical care as anybody else and are no longer in even the top ten nations in our medical outcomes.

Sorry, Sparkles, but "the medical arts" isn't just about the individual scientists and researchers. It's also VERY much about the people who fund their research. Go ahead, TRY to produce effective, timely cancer research without a lab, equipment, utilities, and a salary to pay your bills so you can focus your time and energy on the research instead of on earning a living.

 

[bripat9643]

You are the one who is stupid.

Check the dates. Most of those things were invented AFTER those countries chose socialized medicine.

Wrong, moron. In the first place, most of the claims about the origin of these inventions is not correct. Take Ultrasound. It was invented in the United States, not Austria or Scotland. Austria had nothing to do with it, and researchers in Scotland only made some improvements long after the original invention.

Fetal ultrasound was first used in Scotland well after socialized medicine became established there.

The History of Fetal Ultrasound | Pregnancy Imaging | LiveScience

They were the ones who invented its use for fetal care.

Ultrasound was invented in the USA. End of story.

Adopting it for fetal care is a no-brainer.

 

[bripat9643]

Only idiots like you think our healthcare system is socialized medicine. Europe has many examples if you want to know what a socialized healthcare system looks like.

Europe has one form of socialized medicine. We have another. We have the NAZI version of socialism.

The Affordable Care Act is not socialized medicine.

It sure as hell is.

The Nazis were not socialists. In fact they were on the opposite political spectrum from socialism...kind of like you.

The Nazis were socialists. They were left-wingers. This debate has been carried on ad nauseum ever since I've been a member of this forum, and your side always gets creamed.

You need to crack some history and political science textbooks...maybe you won't appear to be so ignorant.

Try reading actual history rather than left-wing propaganda.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Every liberal who tries to justify Obamacare has attacked insurance company profits.

No they haven't. Learn to read.

The problem is how some of those profits are achieved. By denying coverage and limiting access to healthcare to only those who can afford it and are healthy enough to consider insurable.

Big difference, but you're a corporate shill and wouldn't understand the difference.

Insurance companies are not charitable organizations. I realize this is news to you. But they exist to make money. They make money by offering a product, insurance, that they hope to make money on by selling to appropriate customers. Customers are free to decline to buy that product.
That is the fundamental basis of capitalism, something you would hate if you actually understood it.

Again, I work for a prescription benefits manager. I've never taken a call from an irate customer who couldn't get his prescription paid for by the insurance company where the company had suddenly, maliciously decided not to cover it with no warning. I DO, however, take many calls every day from irate customers who were given ample prior warning as to what their insurance plan did and didn't cover, and just didn't bother to read it and know what they were agreeing to. I tend to suspect that most of these "tragic" sob stories we hear about heartless insurance companies are the same. The terms are laid out in the paperwork, the formulary list is mailed to them, and there are agents available by phone who will be happy to look up the medication in question and tell you if it's covered and for how much. If you don't avail yourself of the knowledge, you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

[bripat9643]

Duh!

Nelson Mandela easily comes to mind.

You are a racist shithead.

I had no idea Nelson Mandela was a city, state or country.
For the record, Mandela was a marxist who ran his country into the ground.
Your rep is returned in spades. You are an ignorant joke.


I see RDD has abandoned the discussion. I guess even he had to aknowledge he had nothign worthwhile to contribute here.

What else is there to say? You and BriPat have made it clear you're racists. I don't need to say anything else. You are what you are. Racist.

So if you claim whites earn more than blacks, you're a racist? Or is that not a fact?

 

[Wry Catcher]

Really? Do you think those who support breast cancer (or any kind of cancer cure for that matter) are motivated by greed?

I personally think (and maybe it's me being a Pollyanna), that those who are on the cutting edges of medical science are there because they want to better understand, or help their fellow human beings.

However.....................those who are motivated by greed are easy to see. How much does Cialis or Viagra do for humankind?

even better said ...

A side note to Cialis and Viagra, they were developed to lower blood pressure, it was discovered on higher doses they produced erections. Hence, the money spend on R&D paid - and continues to pay - huge dividends to stock holders of big pharma.

 

[bripat9643]

"....nor did he earn any money from his discovery, preferring to see it distributed as widely as possible."

Weird how you ignored that part.

You lose....again.

It's bullshit. The March of Dimes funded his research, and therefore they owned the patent rights. They chose not to patent it because they are a charity.

If I remember correctly, they also paid him to do the research.

Funny how that works. If you work for Ford Motor company and invent some new kind of thingamabob for cars, Ford owns the patent rights, not you.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I had no idea Nelson Mandela was a city, state or country.
For the record, Mandela was a marxist who ran his country into the ground.
Your rep is returned in spades. You are an ignorant joke.


I see RDD has abandoned the discussion. I guess even he had to aknowledge he had nothign worthwhile to contribute here.

What else is there to say? You and BriPat have made it clear you're racists. I don't need to say anything else. You are what you are. Racist.

So if you claim whites earn more than blacks, you're a racist? Or is that not a fact?

No. The fact is you're most ignorant. Look up the definition of a Racist.

 

[bripat9643]

You obviously don't watch FoxNews or listen to CTR.
Good for you!
You know the pretty long haired brunette snot on the five?
Or that other British accented sound-bite idiot on Fox?
They say this all the time.

It's interesting that you appear to be the only one in this conversation who listens to Fox or talk radio, but you're constantly quoting them and trying to make US responsible for what they say.

Keep your friends close; keep your enemies closer.
I just listened to Ann Coulter talk for about 7 minutes on Mark Simone.
She's has the amazing gift of saying many words that contain zero content.

She also says many things that skewer libs right through their hypocrisy bone.

That's why libturds like you hate her so intensely.

 

[bripat9643]

Today I learned that adding more people on to private insurance plans is now considered socialized medicine.

So did the meaning of socialism change over the weekend and I didn't get an email about it?

Adding people to private plans using money redistributed from higher earners is socialized medicine. Further, forcing your plan to include people with pre-existing conditions without making them pay separately for their pre-existing issues is forcing the people on the plan to fund those people's known pre-existing conditions, thus re-distributing the costs of those issues to the people on the plan, which is most certainly socialized medicine. Your welcome.

That's called insurance pools. Sorry if you don't like it, but it's not a new concept.

Wrong. Insurance pools don't charge healthy people more so that unhealthy people can get cheap insurance. That's not "insurance." It's welfare. No healthy person would ever buy such "insurance" unless the government compelled them to, and that's what Obamacare does.

Also, purchasing home insurance after your house burns down wouldn't be insurance. It's welfare.

 

[Indeependent]

It's interesting that you appear to be the only one in this conversation who listens to Fox or talk radio, but you're constantly quoting them and trying to make US responsible for what they say.

Keep your friends close; keep your enemies closer.
I just listened to Ann Coulter talk for about 7 minutes on Mark Simone.
She's has the amazing gift of saying many words that contain zero content.

She also says many things that skewer libs right through their hypocrisy bone.

That's why libturds like you hate her so intensely.

Great! What does she say that I haven't heard from her on Fox or CTR?
"The unemployed don't look for work because they like their Unemployment Insurance."
(Sure, doesn't EVERYONE want a 60-80% pay cut and lose everything that have?)
Yes, it took her 7 minutes to say that sentence...THAT SENTENCE.
Absolutely nothing else of content.
If you worship her, you're an ignoramus.