Leftists owe the rest of us an explanation for the Florida shooting

[kaz]

We banned guns from schools, just like you wanted. Even people with concealed carry permits trained to use their guns safely didn't have them. And your plan worked. No one had a gun and was able to defend themselves and shoot back. And 17 people died because of it.

You owe us an explanation. What is wrong with your plan? Why isn't it working?

Maybe you can ask your drug dealer why banning guns doesn't work the next time you buy a doobie ...

Leftists "owe"? Americans have been laying the bullet-riddled corpses of innocent victims on the High Altar of Intransigence and Indifference in the Cathedral of LaPierre of the Sacred NRA for decades and you think you are 'owed' something?

In the last assault weapon debate the gun nuts bogged down progress by haggling over cosmetics. Grips, stocks and flash suppressors have NOTHING to do with the essential problem of the rate of fire.

Surviving kids rally and march and for their efforts they are demeaned, disparaged and mocked by the gun lovers.

Gun lovers say movies and video games are the cause of mass shootings, yet no one has every killed 17 people in mnutes with an XBox.

Gun nuts say the mentally frazzled should not have guns, yet when given the opportunity to make that a reality, the gun lobby said that the rights of the mentally ill was being infringed.

Gun nuts are "owed' something? Perhaps you're right. We owe you our scorn.

We follow your rules, people died and it's our fault. You're a mindless Democrat shill

Your rules ensured the proliferation of unnecessarily lethal weapons and people continue to die. You stood indifferent to the pleas of your fellow citizens to stem the tide of the slaughter, and people continue to die. You're a heartless idiot in the influence of a heartless lobby in a heartless cause.

That's just stupid.

Leftists: It's stupid to think that people who want drugs can't get them, drug laws are stupid and cause more harm than good.

Leftists: Gun laws, oh yeah, that will work. It will keep criminals from getting them. That while you fight to keep us from having a southern border.

The idea that in a free society you can stop psychopaths who want to kill people from killing people is the disingenuous idiotic hack that you are.

And you double down on stupid by enacting laws that does nothing but prevent people from having the ability to stop them.

This is all on you, pal

 

[kaz]

I'm really not sure what the military has to do with anything. Really not following you there.

Your argument on social security is that you paid money that was spent immediately, yet somehow you "paid into" money that you get later even though not one dime of what you paid will be in the money paid to you. It was spent as it came in.

How is that different than the money you paid for the military? The military taxes you paid were paid out in military spending. That is no different than your social security spending which was also paid out immediately.

So why didn't you "pay into" military like you did social security, and therefore why aren't you getting a check for what you paid in military spending just like you will get a check for the social security spending which was also paid out immediately?

The only difference is a psychological one. You are thinking that you pay money to your parents, and government will do that to your kids for you. Oddly that makes you feel somehow entitled to your kids money. But hey, they're going to do it to their kids, so it's OK, right? No, it's not

Bottom line is that Social Security isn't the same as welfare, and it's not fair to people who are simply making do with the system they're stuck with to blame or denigrate them because the system sucks.

Now that's how leftists argue. Facts don't "denigrate."

Welfare:

- money is taken 100% from today's taxpayers and paid to welfare recipients

Social Security

- money is taken 100% from today's taxpayers and paid to social security recipients

How can the exact same scenario be two different things?

 

[kaz]

We banned guns from schools, just like you wanted. Even people with concealed carry permits trained to use their guns safely didn't have them. And your plan worked. No one had a gun and was able to defend themselves and shoot back. And 17 people died because of it.

You owe us an explanation. What is wrong with your plan? Why isn't it working?

Maybe you can ask your drug dealer why banning guns doesn't work the next time you buy a doobie ...

Leftists "owe"? Americans have been laying the bullet-riddled corpses of innocent victims on the High Altar of Intransigence and Indifference in the Cathedral of LaPierre of the Sacred NRA for decades and you think you are 'owed' something?

In the last assault weapon debate the gun nuts bogged down progress by haggling over cosmetics. Grips, stocks and flash suppressors have NOTHING to do with the essential problem of the rate of fire.

Surviving kids rally and march and for their efforts they are demeaned, disparaged and mocked by the gun lovers.

Gun lovers say movies and video games are the cause of mass shootings, yet no one has every killed 17 people in mnutes with an XBox.

Gun nuts say the mentally frazzled should not have guns, yet when given the opportunity to make that a reality, the gun lobby said that the rights of the mentally ill was being infringed.

Gun nuts are "owed' something? Perhaps you're right. We owe you our scorn.

We follow your rules, people died and it's our fault. You're a mindless Democrat shill

Your rules ensured the proliferation of unnecessarily lethal weapons and people continue to die. You stood indifferent to the pleas of your fellow citizens to stem the tide of the slaughter, and people continue to die. You're a heartless idiot in the influence of a heartless lobby in a heartless cause.

Hysterical, melodramatic twaddle.

That is commentary, not rebuttal.

Wow, well done. A rare moment of lucidity for you

 

[kaz]

"Leftists owe the rest of us an explanation for the Florida shooting"

No, they don't.

We followed your plan, it was a gun free zone. 17 are dead. Damned straight you owe us an explanation for your failure

What about the security guard with a gun?

First, where was he? No one knows. Even the media reporting there was a security guard with a gun doesn't know.

But primarily, if you read my OP, I referred to people with CCs. That means a variety of people would have guns and most importantly the shooter wouldn't know which ones they are. That is what would have at a minimum slowed him down and likely have stopped or even prevented him.

So as you your question, my answer is, what about him?

 

[kaz]

"Leftists owe the rest of us an explanation for the Florida shooting"

No, they don't.

We followed your plan, it was a gun free zone. 17 are dead. Damned straight you owe us an explanation for your failure

What about the security guard with a gun?

What about him? Are you pissed that the killing field wasn't as entirely free of guns and possible defense as you wanted it to be? Are you bothered that the shooter might have had to wait until the ONE armed guard was on another part of the 45 ACRE property before he could get started?

Exactly. Also, (not a question to you), where the hell was he? No one knows

 

[kaz]

We banned guns from schools, just like you wanted. Even people with concealed carry permits trained to use their guns safely didn't have them. And your plan worked. No one had a gun and was able to defend themselves and shoot back. And 17 people died because of it.

You owe us an explanation. What is wrong with your plan? Why isn't it working?

Maybe you can ask your drug dealer why banning guns doesn't work the next time you buy a doobie ...

Nobody owes you anything

We’re asking the questions here

And when a whole new generation votes away the NRA the only question you’ll need to answer is how do you plea when you get caught with a gin in the wrong place

Congrats on all the dead children. A great political stunt for you. You've been walking on a cloud for a week now, haven't you?

The real goal of this exercise is authoritarian leftism. That's why you're so light in your loafers. The children are just sacrifices to the cause. Honest citizens are the biggest obstacle to the objective. We band together. Criminals killing random people aren't a threat.

I don't know what the NRA has to do with it, but whatever.

A question. Does the stupid give you a buzz? Or is it more just a deadening feeling?

 

[kaz]

We banned guns from schools, just like you wanted. Even people with concealed carry permits trained to use their guns safely didn't have them. And your plan worked. No one had a gun and was able to defend themselves and shoot back. And 17 people died because of it.

You owe us an explanation. What is wrong with your plan? Why isn't it working?

Maybe you can ask your drug dealer why banning guns doesn't work the next time you buy a doobie ...

Nobody owes you anything

We’re asking the questions here

And when a whole new generation votes away the NRA the only question you’ll need to answer is how do you plea when you get caught with a gin in the wrong place

No, you fucking are NOT "asking the questions here", Torquemada. Nobody died and left you in charge of the Inquisition.

Oh, and you don't get to vote on the NRA. They're a private organization, and thus protected by the First Amendment.

You need to get off the Internet and get busy organizing, if you're planning to repeal both the 2nd Amendment AND the 1st.

Technically the left isn't interested in "repealing" any amendments. They want them in place so they can leverage them when it's expedient and ignore them the rest of the time

 

[Cecilie1200]

"Leftists owe the rest of us an explanation for the Florida shooting"

No, they don't.

We followed your plan, it was a gun free zone. 17 are dead. Damned straight you owe us an explanation for your failure

What about the security guard with a gun?

What about him? Are you pissed that the killing field wasn't as entirely free of guns and possible defense as you wanted it to be? Are you bothered that the shooter might have had to wait until the ONE armed guard was on another part of the 45 ACRE property before he could get started?

Exactly. Also, (not a question to you), where the hell was he? No one knows

No idea. I'm still wondering why they keep bringing him up. Are they saying his presence means it wasn't really a "gun free zone", and THAT'S the reason why their policy didn't keep those kids safe? What, precisely, is their point?

 

[kaz]

Sorry, Sparkles, but "Republicans control Florida" is not even REMOTELY enough to address where the fault lies.

It's called "in-depth thought". Try some, and get back to us.

But Slick, it's the only explanation coming from the left. Republicans passed the Fla gun laws. It's obvious they hold the profits of the gun manufacturers in higher regard than the lives of children.

My Gawd, think of the Children!

Yes you are correct, reality is much harder than politics.

Okay, first of all, just let me say that I'm well aware of the leftist tactic of "Show up after a long argument, pretend to be completely ignorant of anything that's been said, demand that the entire argument be repeated for you, and hope your opponent gets frustrated and gives up". Doesn't work on me, and never will. I will be perfectly happy to kick your ass for the next 60 pages just like I did Lewdog's in the previous 60, AND continue kicking his ass while I'm at it.

Now, having said that . . . you wanna go? Then giddyup, son.

As I have already said to JED, this is not about Republicans and Democrats. I'm not responsible for the Republican Party or any of its members, and I don't really give a damn about them. The OP said "leftists", and I've been talking very consistently about leftists, so this is about political philosophy, not political parties. I have no intention of letting you re-define the parameters of the debate because you're unable to mount a defense based on the current ones.

Furthermore, if you are planning on framing your argument on the basis that the gun laws of the state of Florida are directly responsible for this shooting, then by all means, present me with the specific law or laws and your reasoning as to how they are responsible, and we can discuss them. But I will not be blindly accepting your vague premise without substantiation.

Bring it on.

Blaming this monstrous act on the Gun Free School Zone acts of the 90's or even to say that those Bills were some kind of Leftist subversion of common sense is as ludicrous as saying either side is to blame. The one to blame is the guy who did the deed. Hanging's too good for him.

Well, it's nice to see a leftist who actually wants to blame the criminal. That, however, does nothing to resolve the very real fact that we need more effective ways to prevent people like him from killing sprees in schools, malls, whatever. And I can and do blame "gun free zones" for being utterly ineffectual in that regard.

Furthermore, YOU started out by trying to blame Florida's gun laws for this shooting, and NOW you say we can't hold anyone or anything responsible EXCEPT the shooter. Could you possibly flail your way around to some consistency?

Well yeah I did start out with a partisan and flippant remark about the OP. Since I haven't been here all year I didn't want to jump into any long established discussions. Didn't the OP blame the Left exclusively for the gun free zone laws for this atrocity, which were in reality a bipartisan venture? Also, if we're going to blame the laws for failing to stop the behavior they were intended to restrict, do we blame all the murders committed on the laws against it? No of course not. Do you blame the rapist or the laws against rape for failing to stop the crime? Ridiculous!

Thanked for admitting your partisan remark. Few admit anything, particularly on the left. Care4all said my claim school gun free zones was federal was wrong. I showed her the link that school gun free zones was actually a Federal bill. She wouldn't admit she was wrong.

Anyway, logically, when I criticize the left for supporting gun free zones, I don't follow your logic that means I'm blaming the left "exclusively." I believe that's a non-sequitur.

However in this case, I am curious who besides the left you think is driving gun free zones so I can blame them too

 

[Cecilie1200]

Proposed by a Democrat. Troll fail.

Aaaand still signed into law by a Republican president. Run along, little narc.

Aaaaand no one gives a fuck, because it's irrelevant.

Dumbfuck, of course it’s relevant. It doesn’t become irrelevant just because it’s pesky for you. The right is blaming the left for gun free zones. Meanwhile, both parties were responsible for passing it and neither party made any effort to get rid of it.

No, it's irrelevant because the OP and the entire thread are about LEFTISTS, not Democrats. Dumbfuck.

LOL

Apparently, in your hollow cranial cavity, Democrats don’t represent the left.

Regardless of your insignificant dismissal, gun-free zones were sponsored by a Democrat. Voted for by a margin of 313-1, which means both left and right supported it, and signed into law by a Republican Party. That was nearly 3 decades ago and while both parties have been in control at various times over that period, neither party has attempted to revoke gun free zones. The whiney, sniveling right look like the fools they are for blaming the problem on gun-free zones when they are equally responsible for them.

There's a lot of overlap, no denying that, but leftists don't have to be Democrats, and Democrats don't have to be leftists. My objection is to the philosophy, not the political party.

The rest of your post proves my point. One does not have to be a Democrat to engage in egregious left-think.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Sorry, Sparkles, but "Republicans control Florida" is not even REMOTELY enough to address where the fault lies.

It's called "in-depth thought". Try some, and get back to us.

But Slick, it's the only explanation coming from the left. Republicans passed the Fla gun laws. It's obvious they hold the profits of the gun manufacturers in higher regard than the lives of children.

My Gawd, think of the Children!

Yes you are correct, reality is much harder than politics.

Okay, first of all, just let me say that I'm well aware of the leftist tactic of "Show up after a long argument, pretend to be completely ignorant of anything that's been said, demand that the entire argument be repeated for you, and hope your opponent gets frustrated and gives up". Doesn't work on me, and never will. I will be perfectly happy to kick your ass for the next 60 pages just like I did Lewdog's in the previous 60, AND continue kicking his ass while I'm at it.

Now, having said that . . . you wanna go? Then giddyup, son.

As I have already said to JED, this is not about Republicans and Democrats. I'm not responsible for the Republican Party or any of its members, and I don't really give a damn about them. The OP said "leftists", and I've been talking very consistently about leftists, so this is about political philosophy, not political parties. I have no intention of letting you re-define the parameters of the debate because you're unable to mount a defense based on the current ones.

Furthermore, if you are planning on framing your argument on the basis that the gun laws of the state of Florida are directly responsible for this shooting, then by all means, present me with the specific law or laws and your reasoning as to how they are responsible, and we can discuss them. But I will not be blindly accepting your vague premise without substantiation.

Bring it on.

Blaming this monstrous act on the Gun Free School Zone acts of the 90's or even to say that those Bills were some kind of Leftist subversion of common sense is as ludicrous as saying either side is to blame. The one to blame is the guy who did the deed. Hanging's too good for him.

Well, it's nice to see a leftist who actually wants to blame the criminal. That, however, does nothing to resolve the very real fact that we need more effective ways to prevent people like him from killing sprees in schools, malls, whatever. And I can and do blame "gun free zones" for being utterly ineffectual in that regard.

Furthermore, YOU started out by trying to blame Florida's gun laws for this shooting, and NOW you say we can't hold anyone or anything responsible EXCEPT the shooter. Could you possibly flail your way around to some consistency?

Well yeah I did start out with a partisan and flippant remark about the OP. Since I haven't been here all year I didn't want to jump into any long established discussions. Didn't the OP blame the Left exclusively for the gun free zone laws for this atrocity, which were in reality a bipartisan venture? Also, if we're going to blame the laws for failing to stop the behavior they were intended to restrict, do we blame all the murders committed on the laws against it? No of course not. Do you blame the rapist or the laws against rape for failing to stop the crime? Ridiculous!

See, again, you're conflating a discussion of "left and right" with "Democrat and Republican". A policy may be "bipartisan" in the sense of getting people from both political parties to vote for it (which is kinda the definition of "bipartisan"), but that doesn't apply to the philosophical divide of leftist and conservative. Gun-free zones are 100% leftist; there is no permutation in which they are remotely conservative. Therefore, the blame for any harm caused by them belongs to the left, not the right. The fact that Republican sometimes vote for leftist policies just demonstrates what I said before: left-think is more contagious than a flaming case of herpes.

Furthermore, we are not blaming laws for failing to stop behavior; we are blaming them for actively exacerbating that behavior. Gun-free zones not only do NOT prevent spree shooters from bringing guns into them to kill people, they ENCOURAGE them to go to those places for their slaughterfests, because they know all their targets will be defenseless. THAT is our objection.

Laws against murder in general act as a deterrent for most of society, including some criminals (who, for example, commit burglaries when no one is home, rather than when the family is present), but their primary purpose isn't to prevent murders so much as it is to offer a framework for which to arrest and punish people who commit them. More importantly in this context, they do not actively encourage people to do what they prohibit.

As for stopping rape, in a lot of cases, I blame the same gun laws I'm blaming for school shootings, because they prevent the victims from being able to defend themselves.

 

[BlindBoo]

But Slick, it's the only explanation coming from the left. Republicans passed the Fla gun laws. It's obvious they hold the profits of the gun manufacturers in higher regard than the lives of children.

My Gawd, think of the Children!

Yes you are correct, reality is much harder than politics.

Okay, first of all, just let me say that I'm well aware of the leftist tactic of "Show up after a long argument, pretend to be completely ignorant of anything that's been said, demand that the entire argument be repeated for you, and hope your opponent gets frustrated and gives up". Doesn't work on me, and never will. I will be perfectly happy to kick your ass for the next 60 pages just like I did Lewdog's in the previous 60, AND continue kicking his ass while I'm at it.

Now, having said that . . . you wanna go? Then giddyup, son.

As I have already said to JED, this is not about Republicans and Democrats. I'm not responsible for the Republican Party or any of its members, and I don't really give a damn about them. The OP said "leftists", and I've been talking very consistently about leftists, so this is about political philosophy, not political parties. I have no intention of letting you re-define the parameters of the debate because you're unable to mount a defense based on the current ones.

Furthermore, if you are planning on framing your argument on the basis that the gun laws of the state of Florida are directly responsible for this shooting, then by all means, present me with the specific law or laws and your reasoning as to how they are responsible, and we can discuss them. But I will not be blindly accepting your vague premise without substantiation.

Bring it on.

Blaming this monstrous act on the Gun Free School Zone acts of the 90's or even to say that those Bills were some kind of Leftist subversion of common sense is as ludicrous as saying either side is to blame. The one to blame is the guy who did the deed. Hanging's too good for him.

Well, it's nice to see a leftist who actually wants to blame the criminal. That, however, does nothing to resolve the very real fact that we need more effective ways to prevent people like him from killing sprees in schools, malls, whatever. And I can and do blame "gun free zones" for being utterly ineffectual in that regard.

Furthermore, YOU started out by trying to blame Florida's gun laws for this shooting, and NOW you say we can't hold anyone or anything responsible EXCEPT the shooter. Could you possibly flail your way around to some consistency?

Well yeah I did start out with a partisan and flippant remark about the OP. Since I haven't been here all year I didn't want to jump into any long established discussions. Didn't the OP blame the Left exclusively for the gun free zone laws for this atrocity, which were in reality a bipartisan venture? Also, if we're going to blame the laws for failing to stop the behavior they were intended to restrict, do we blame all the murders committed on the laws against it? No of course not. Do you blame the rapist or the laws against rape for failing to stop the crime? Ridiculous!

Thanked for admitting your partisan remark. Few admit anything, particularly on the left. Care4all said my claim school gun free zones was federal was wrong. I showed her the link that school gun free zones was actually a Federal bill. She wouldn't admit she was wrong.

Anyway, logically, when I criticize the left for supporting gun free zones, I don't follow your logic that means I'm blaming the left "exclusively." I believe that's a non-sequitur.

However in this case, I am curious who besides the left you think is driving gun free zones so I can blame them too

The original bill was passed by a voice vote in Senate and passed 313 to 1 in the House, with 1 Republicans voting against it. G.H.W. Bush signed it.

 

[kaz]

Aaaand still signed into law by a Republican president. Run along, little narc.

Aaaaand no one gives a fuck, because it's irrelevant.

Dumbfuck, of course it’s relevant. It doesn’t become irrelevant just because it’s pesky for you. The right is blaming the left for gun free zones. Meanwhile, both parties were responsible for passing it and neither party made any effort to get rid of it.

No, it's irrelevant because the OP and the entire thread are about LEFTISTS, not Democrats. Dumbfuck.

LOL

Apparently, in your hollow cranial cavity, Democrats don’t represent the left.

Regardless of your insignificant dismissal, gun-free zones were sponsored by a Democrat. Voted for by a margin of 313-1, which means both left and right supported it, and signed into law by a Republican Party. That was nearly 3 decades ago and while both parties have been in control at various times over that period, neither party has attempted to revoke gun free zones. The whiney, sniveling right look like the fools they are for blaming the problem on gun-free zones when they are equally responsible for them.

There's a lot of overlap, no denying that, but leftists don't have to be Democrats, and Democrats don't have to be leftists. My objection is to the philosophy, not the political party.

The rest of your post proves my point. One does not have to be a Democrat to engage in egregious left-think.

I agree that "Democrats don't have to be leftists," but I no longer know any who aren't.

Certainly not all leftists are Democrats though

 

[kaz]

Okay, first of all, just let me say that I'm well aware of the leftist tactic of "Show up after a long argument, pretend to be completely ignorant of anything that's been said, demand that the entire argument be repeated for you, and hope your opponent gets frustrated and gives up". Doesn't work on me, and never will. I will be perfectly happy to kick your ass for the next 60 pages just like I did Lewdog's in the previous 60, AND continue kicking his ass while I'm at it.

Now, having said that . . . you wanna go? Then giddyup, son.

As I have already said to JED, this is not about Republicans and Democrats. I'm not responsible for the Republican Party or any of its members, and I don't really give a damn about them. The OP said "leftists", and I've been talking very consistently about leftists, so this is about political philosophy, not political parties. I have no intention of letting you re-define the parameters of the debate because you're unable to mount a defense based on the current ones.

Furthermore, if you are planning on framing your argument on the basis that the gun laws of the state of Florida are directly responsible for this shooting, then by all means, present me with the specific law or laws and your reasoning as to how they are responsible, and we can discuss them. But I will not be blindly accepting your vague premise without substantiation.

Bring it on.

Blaming this monstrous act on the Gun Free School Zone acts of the 90's or even to say that those Bills were some kind of Leftist subversion of common sense is as ludicrous as saying either side is to blame. The one to blame is the guy who did the deed. Hanging's too good for him.

Well, it's nice to see a leftist who actually wants to blame the criminal. That, however, does nothing to resolve the very real fact that we need more effective ways to prevent people like him from killing sprees in schools, malls, whatever. And I can and do blame "gun free zones" for being utterly ineffectual in that regard.

Furthermore, YOU started out by trying to blame Florida's gun laws for this shooting, and NOW you say we can't hold anyone or anything responsible EXCEPT the shooter. Could you possibly flail your way around to some consistency?

Well yeah I did start out with a partisan and flippant remark about the OP. Since I haven't been here all year I didn't want to jump into any long established discussions. Didn't the OP blame the Left exclusively for the gun free zone laws for this atrocity, which were in reality a bipartisan venture? Also, if we're going to blame the laws for failing to stop the behavior they were intended to restrict, do we blame all the murders committed on the laws against it? No of course not. Do you blame the rapist or the laws against rape for failing to stop the crime? Ridiculous!

Thanked for admitting your partisan remark. Few admit anything, particularly on the left. Care4all said my claim school gun free zones was federal was wrong. I showed her the link that school gun free zones was actually a Federal bill. She wouldn't admit she was wrong.

Anyway, logically, when I criticize the left for supporting gun free zones, I don't follow your logic that means I'm blaming the left "exclusively." I believe that's a non-sequitur.

However in this case, I am curious who besides the left you think is driving gun free zones so I can blame them too

The original bill was passed by a voice vote in Senate and passed 313 to 1 in the House, with 1 Republicans voting against it. G.H.W. Bush signed it.

That was almost 30 years ago. It was almost a decade before Columbine, which was to my memory the first major school shooting. Coincidence? Don't think so.

And almost 2 more decades with no one shooting back, some have clearly learned what a mistake that policy was. Well, no Democrats have and many Republicans as well. But the vote would no longer be 313 to 1

 

[bendog]

Okay, first of all, just let me say that I'm well aware of the leftist tactic of "Show up after a long argument, pretend to be completely ignorant of anything that's been said, demand that the entire argument be repeated for you, and hope your opponent gets frustrated and gives up". Doesn't work on me, and never will. I will be perfectly happy to kick your ass for the next 60 pages just like I did Lewdog's in the previous 60, AND continue kicking his ass while I'm at it.

Now, having said that . . . you wanna go? Then giddyup, son.

As I have already said to JED, this is not about Republicans and Democrats. I'm not responsible for the Republican Party or any of its members, and I don't really give a damn about them. The OP said "leftists", and I've been talking very consistently about leftists, so this is about political philosophy, not political parties. I have no intention of letting you re-define the parameters of the debate because you're unable to mount a defense based on the current ones.

Furthermore, if you are planning on framing your argument on the basis that the gun laws of the state of Florida are directly responsible for this shooting, then by all means, present me with the specific law or laws and your reasoning as to how they are responsible, and we can discuss them. But I will not be blindly accepting your vague premise without substantiation.

Bring it on.

Blaming this monstrous act on the Gun Free School Zone acts of the 90's or even to say that those Bills were some kind of Leftist subversion of common sense is as ludicrous as saying either side is to blame. The one to blame is the guy who did the deed. Hanging's too good for him.

Well, it's nice to see a leftist who actually wants to blame the criminal. That, however, does nothing to resolve the very real fact that we need more effective ways to prevent people like him from killing sprees in schools, malls, whatever. And I can and do blame "gun free zones" for being utterly ineffectual in that regard.

Furthermore, YOU started out by trying to blame Florida's gun laws for this shooting, and NOW you say we can't hold anyone or anything responsible EXCEPT the shooter. Could you possibly flail your way around to some consistency?

Well yeah I did start out with a partisan and flippant remark about the OP. Since I haven't been here all year I didn't want to jump into any long established discussions. Didn't the OP blame the Left exclusively for the gun free zone laws for this atrocity, which were in reality a bipartisan venture? Also, if we're going to blame the laws for failing to stop the behavior they were intended to restrict, do we blame all the murders committed on the laws against it? No of course not. Do you blame the rapist or the laws against rape for failing to stop the crime? Ridiculous!

Thanked for admitting your partisan remark. Few admit anything, particularly on the left. Care4all said my claim school gun free zones was federal was wrong. I showed her the link that school gun free zones was actually a Federal bill. She wouldn't admit she was wrong.

Anyway, logically, when I criticize the left for supporting gun free zones, I don't follow your logic that means I'm blaming the left "exclusively." I believe that's a non-sequitur.

However in this case, I am curious who besides the left you think is driving gun free zones so I can blame them too

The original bill was passed by a voice vote in Senate and passed 313 to 1 in the House, with 1 Republicans voting against it. G.H.W. Bush signed it.

But gunfree zones are leftist. They can't be conservative. LOL

 

[kaz]

Blaming this monstrous act on the Gun Free School Zone acts of the 90's or even to say that those Bills were some kind of Leftist subversion of common sense is as ludicrous as saying either side is to blame. The one to blame is the guy who did the deed. Hanging's too good for him.

Well, it's nice to see a leftist who actually wants to blame the criminal. That, however, does nothing to resolve the very real fact that we need more effective ways to prevent people like him from killing sprees in schools, malls, whatever. And I can and do blame "gun free zones" for being utterly ineffectual in that regard.

Furthermore, YOU started out by trying to blame Florida's gun laws for this shooting, and NOW you say we can't hold anyone or anything responsible EXCEPT the shooter. Could you possibly flail your way around to some consistency?

Well yeah I did start out with a partisan and flippant remark about the OP. Since I haven't been here all year I didn't want to jump into any long established discussions. Didn't the OP blame the Left exclusively for the gun free zone laws for this atrocity, which were in reality a bipartisan venture? Also, if we're going to blame the laws for failing to stop the behavior they were intended to restrict, do we blame all the murders committed on the laws against it? No of course not. Do you blame the rapist or the laws against rape for failing to stop the crime? Ridiculous!

Thanked for admitting your partisan remark. Few admit anything, particularly on the left. Care4all said my claim school gun free zones was federal was wrong. I showed her the link that school gun free zones was actually a Federal bill. She wouldn't admit she was wrong.

Anyway, logically, when I criticize the left for supporting gun free zones, I don't follow your logic that means I'm blaming the left "exclusively." I believe that's a non-sequitur.

However in this case, I am curious who besides the left you think is driving gun free zones so I can blame them too

The original bill was passed by a voice vote in Senate and passed 313 to 1 in the House, with 1 Republicans voting against it. G.H.W. Bush signed it.

But gunfree zones are leftist. They can't be conservative. LOL

Snarky, vacuous. Your usual leftist drivel

 

[bendog]

Well, it's nice to see a leftist who actually wants to blame the criminal. That, however, does nothing to resolve the very real fact that we need more effective ways to prevent people like him from killing sprees in schools, malls, whatever. And I can and do blame "gun free zones" for being utterly ineffectual in that regard.

Furthermore, YOU started out by trying to blame Florida's gun laws for this shooting, and NOW you say we can't hold anyone or anything responsible EXCEPT the shooter. Could you possibly flail your way around to some consistency?

Well yeah I did start out with a partisan and flippant remark about the OP. Since I haven't been here all year I didn't want to jump into any long established discussions. Didn't the OP blame the Left exclusively for the gun free zone laws for this atrocity, which were in reality a bipartisan venture? Also, if we're going to blame the laws for failing to stop the behavior they were intended to restrict, do we blame all the murders committed on the laws against it? No of course not. Do you blame the rapist or the laws against rape for failing to stop the crime? Ridiculous!

Thanked for admitting your partisan remark. Few admit anything, particularly on the left. Care4all said my claim school gun free zones was federal was wrong. I showed her the link that school gun free zones was actually a Federal bill. She wouldn't admit she was wrong.

Anyway, logically, when I criticize the left for supporting gun free zones, I don't follow your logic that means I'm blaming the left "exclusively." I believe that's a non-sequitur.

However in this case, I am curious who besides the left you think is driving gun free zones so I can blame them too

The original bill was passed by a voice vote in Senate and passed 313 to 1 in the House, with 1 Republicans voting against it. G.H.W. Bush signed it.

But gunfree zones are leftist. They can't be conservative. LOL

hey your thread is a fucking snark, sparky. That's the point.

Snarky, vacuous. Your usual leftist drivel

 

[BlindBoo]

But Slick, it's the only explanation coming from the left. Republicans passed the Fla gun laws. It's obvious they hold the profits of the gun manufacturers in higher regard than the lives of children.

My Gawd, think of the Children!

Yes you are correct, reality is much harder than politics.

Okay, first of all, just let me say that I'm well aware of the leftist tactic of "Show up after a long argument, pretend to be completely ignorant of anything that's been said, demand that the entire argument be repeated for you, and hope your opponent gets frustrated and gives up". Doesn't work on me, and never will. I will be perfectly happy to kick your ass for the next 60 pages just like I did Lewdog's in the previous 60, AND continue kicking his ass while I'm at it.

Now, having said that . . . you wanna go? Then giddyup, son.

As I have already said to JED, this is not about Republicans and Democrats. I'm not responsible for the Republican Party or any of its members, and I don't really give a damn about them. The OP said "leftists", and I've been talking very consistently about leftists, so this is about political philosophy, not political parties. I have no intention of letting you re-define the parameters of the debate because you're unable to mount a defense based on the current ones.

Furthermore, if you are planning on framing your argument on the basis that the gun laws of the state of Florida are directly responsible for this shooting, then by all means, present me with the specific law or laws and your reasoning as to how they are responsible, and we can discuss them. But I will not be blindly accepting your vague premise without substantiation.

Bring it on.

Blaming this monstrous act on the Gun Free School Zone acts of the 90's or even to say that those Bills were some kind of Leftist subversion of common sense is as ludicrous as saying either side is to blame. The one to blame is the guy who did the deed. Hanging's too good for him.

Well, it's nice to see a leftist who actually wants to blame the criminal. That, however, does nothing to resolve the very real fact that we need more effective ways to prevent people like him from killing sprees in schools, malls, whatever. And I can and do blame "gun free zones" for being utterly ineffectual in that regard.

Furthermore, YOU started out by trying to blame Florida's gun laws for this shooting, and NOW you say we can't hold anyone or anything responsible EXCEPT the shooter. Could you possibly flail your way around to some consistency?

Well yeah I did start out with a partisan and flippant remark about the OP. Since I haven't been here all year I didn't want to jump into any long established discussions. Didn't the OP blame the Left exclusively for the gun free zone laws for this atrocity, which were in reality a bipartisan venture? Also, if we're going to blame the laws for failing to stop the behavior they were intended to restrict, do we blame all the murders committed on the laws against it? No of course not. Do you blame the rapist or the laws against rape for failing to stop the crime? Ridiculous!

See, again, you're conflating a discussion of "left and right" with "Democrat and Republican". A policy may be "bipartisan" in the sense of getting people from both political parties to vote for it (which is kinda the definition of "bipartisan"), but that doesn't apply to the philosophical divide of leftist and conservative. Gun-free zones are 100% leftist; there is no permutation in which they are remotely conservative. Therefore, the blame for any harm caused by them belongs to the left, not the right. The fact that Republican sometimes vote for leftist policies just demonstrates what I said before: left-think is more contagious than a flaming case of herpes.

Furthermore, we are not blaming laws for failing to stop behavior; we are blaming them for actively exacerbating that behavior. Gun-free zones not only do NOT prevent spree shooters from bringing guns into them to kill people, they ENCOURAGE them to go to those places for their slaughterfests, because they know all their targets will be defenseless. THAT is our objection.

Laws against murder in general act as a deterrent for most of society, including some criminals (who, for example, commit burglaries when no one is home, rather than when the family is present), but their primary purpose isn't to prevent murders so much as it is to offer a framework for which to arrest and punish people who commit them. More importantly in this context, they do not actively encourage people to do what they prohibit.

As for stopping rape, in a lot of cases, I blame the same gun laws I'm blaming for school shootings, because they prevent the victims from being able to defend themselves.

I disagree that most of the mass murderers choose the location of their slaughter because they are gun restricted areas. Fact is most of the deadliest ones did not happen in a gun free zone. Sadly, I think more schools now do need to have more armed security and more individuals authorized/allowed to carry weapons. They certainly need to implement better security policies to prevent access to the so called gun free zones.

 

[kaz]

Snarky, vacuous. Your usual leftist drivel

hey your thread is a fucking snark, sparky. That's the point.

Your inability to use quotes aside, how does not addressing anything I've said make that point exactly?

It's leftists on the board advocating gun free zones. I don't know if you can read or just don't, but are you arguing leftists are against gun free zones or was that just a diversion?

 

[Faun]

Aaaand still signed into law by a Republican president. Run along, little narc.

Aaaaand no one gives a fuck, because it's irrelevant.

Dumbfuck, of course it’s relevant. It doesn’t become irrelevant just because it’s pesky for you. The right is blaming the left for gun free zones. Meanwhile, both parties were responsible for passing it and neither party made any effort to get rid of it.

No, it's irrelevant because the OP and the entire thread are about LEFTISTS, not Democrats. Dumbfuck.

LOL

Apparently, in your hollow cranial cavity, Democrats don’t represent the left.

Regardless of your insignificant dismissal, gun-free zones were sponsored by a Democrat. Voted for by a margin of 313-1, which means both left and right supported it, and signed into law by a Republican Party. That was nearly 3 decades ago and while both parties have been in control at various times over that period, neither party has attempted to revoke gun free zones. The whiney, sniveling right look like the fools they are for blaming the problem on gun-free zones when they are equally responsible for them.

There's a lot of overlap, no denying that, but leftists don't have to be Democrats, and Democrats don't have to be leftists. My objection is to the philosophy, not the political party.

The rest of your post proves my point. One does not have to be a Democrat to engage in egregious left-think.

Then your point is DOA because if that’s how you want to look at it, neither the “left” nor the “right” write laws. Democrats and Republicans do. And Democrat and Republican law makers in Congress represent the entire country, left, right, middle, i.e, everyone. And Democrats and Republicans together passed gun-free zones. 313-1.

Neither side can blame the other on this issue. I don’t actually know that either side wants to blame the other or even thinks it’s the problem; just a relative few people who don’t know where to turn or are seeking to blame someone else.