Minimum wage is already “livable”

[Harpy Eagle]

1) Your expenses are miscalculated. If you’re earning only $2k a month, Obamacare isn’t $500 - it’s more like $30. And car insurance? If you never acquired any job skills, you don’t get a car. Food is $500? I spend about $400, and I could cut it down to $300 if I had to.

Rent: $600
Food: $400
Util: $200
Ocare: $30
Public transport: $50

You seem to assume everywhere has public transportation, which is not really the case

 

[Lisa558]

The UE benefits have ended. People ARE working. Alot of this labor shortage stuff is FAKE NEWS. The business owner can grow their business with or without employees if they have the drive. No business is owed employees which is your thought process. If you need employees that bad then do what it takes to attract them. Why should I have sympathy?

You really are not informed. I’m not talking about the UE benefits. I’m talking about the new government child support checks. They used to go to people who owed taxes, but now they go to EVERYONE. Plus, they raised it.

So the wife working part-time for $300 a week to supplement the family income now finds that she is getting $300 per month, per child, from taxpayers, and quits her job. Now multiply that by 10 million, and you have a problem.

 

[Lisa558]

You seem to assume everywhere has public transportation, which is not really the case

So they need to….

a) move to where there is. That’s what people used to do before leftists told them they don’t have to support themselves.

b) take an online class to better themselves and earn more money where they live.

 

[braalian]

And P.S. The reason businesses cannot find emoloyees NOW is because the government has expanded welfare to such an extent that they don’t need a job.

I agree this is a large part of the reason. But I also think that the tight labor market has enabled some workers to be more choosey. Not all of them are leaving their low paying jobs to sit at home and collect unemployment and tax credits. Some are, of course, but not all.

Some of them are leaving companies who either can’t or won’t increase their wages to go to companies who are.

Yeah, it will push some small business owners out of business whose profit margins are too thin to keep up with the wage war, but that’s the nature of business. It’s not just competition over prices, sometimes it competition over who can pay more to attract and keep workers. Labor is a commodity.

 

[Harpy Eagle]

So they need to….

a) move to where there is. That’s what people used to do before leftists told them they don’t have to support themselves.

b) take an online class to better themselves and earn more money where they live.

And they can get the money to pay for those things from the money tree in their back yard.

 

[Lisa558]

I agree this is a large part of the reason. But I also think that the tight labor market has enabled some workers to be more choosey. Not all of them are leaving their low paying jobs to sit at home and collect unemployment and tax credits. Some are, of course, but not all.

Some of them are leaving companies who either can’t or won’t increase their wages to go to companies who are.

Yeah, it will push some small business owners out of business whose profit margins are too thin to keep up with the wage war, but that’s the nature of business. It’s not just competition over prices, sometimes it competition over who can pay more to attract and keep workers. Labor is a commodity.

Except that the REASON there is a tight job market is because the government Is handing out lots of free money. That also applies to the “better” opportunities.

And most small businesses operate on thin margins. Millions of them will be pushed out of business. And that means less opportunity for the millions of unskilled worker because there will be fewer jobs available overall.

And that will mean millions of unskilled workers chasing fewer and fewer job openings. Most will end up on welfare.

And finally, as far as competition as to who can afford to pay more, it’s the largest corporations. The very backbone of job creation - the small business - will cease to exist, or nearly so.

Destruction of private ownership is part of the march toward socialism.

 

[DBA]

How are they gonna do that of their employees starve to death? Do you seriously think that an employer has no duty to their employees at all?


The American dream is dead.

If companies want to get and retain quality employees they will reward them accordingly. Employers don’t have a “duty”. If you believe this, then why not just have to government dictate the terms of all private employment? That is where your logic leads.

 

[Lisa558]

And they can get the money to pay for those things from the money tree in their back yard.

For education: They can get the money from Pell Grants. Always an excuse with you as to why people can’t better themselves.

For the move: they can lay off the liquor and alcohol for a few months, and put the savings toward a bus ticket and first month’s rent for a room in someone’s house.

 

[Anomalism]

So they need to….

a) move to where there is. That’s what people used to do before leftists told them they don’t have to support themselves.

b) take an online class to better themselves and earn more money where they live.

It seems like there's an important balance to strike between helping people and expecting them to help themselves. Where is that balance exactly? Hell if I know.

 

[Anomalism]

For education: They can get the money from Pell Grants. Always an excuse with you as to why people can’t better themselves.

For the move: they can lay off the liquor and alcohol for a few months, and put the savings toward a bus ticket and first month’s rent for a room in someone’s house.

What about people that are in a deep hole because of their own bad choices? People that have demonstrated that they can't or won't make good decisions. Where do we draw the line there? Should they be helped or left to cause crime and chaos?

 

[Lisa558]

Personal story time:

Decades ago, a distant cousin, with no job skills and unable to cover her upcoming rent, called my dad for a “loan.” She said she needed $1500 to carry her through a few months. My dad, knowing he would likely not see the money back, gave it to her.

About six months later, she called again. She needed another $1500. (This was equivalent to around $4000 in today’s dollars.) My dad, realizing this would be a never-ending cycle from which she could not escape, told her she could pick ANY vocational program at the local community college, or similar training place, and he would pay for it, up to $1500.

She declined.

 

[Lisa558]

It seems like there's an important balance to strike between helping people and expecting them to help themselves. Where is that balance exactly? Hell if I know.

I think we have a nice balance: we offer Pell Grants, which do not have to be repaid, that will cover the cost of a two-year community college program for poor people. And where I live, poor people get a free bus pass. So we are providing, at taxpayer expense, a way for people to learn to fish for themselves.

 

[braalian]

Except that the REASON there is a tight job market is because the government Is handing out lots of free money. That also applies to the “better” opportunities.

And most small businesses operate on thin margins. Millions of them will be pushed out of business. And that means less opportunity for the millions of unskilled worker because there will be fewer jobs available overall.

And that will mean millions of unskilled workers chasing fewer and fewer job openings. Most will end up on welfare.

And finally, as far as competition as to who can afford to pay more, it’s the largest corporations. The very backbone of job creation - the small business - will cease to exist, or nearly so.

Destruction of private ownership is part of the march toward socialism.

I agree that paying able-bodied adults to sit at home needs to stop. I’m all for telling them to get off their asses and get a job.

But would even that really save the small businesses who can’t afford to pay the bigger wages for unskilled workers that the bigger companies can offer? Why would anyone work unloading boxes at some family owned grocery store for $12/hr when the same skill set will get them $17/hr at Amazon warehouse?

 

[Harpy Eagle]

For education: They can get the money from Pell Grants. Always an excuse with you as to why people can’t better themselves.

Not everyone can get a Pell Grant, and a Pell grant will not pay for all of school.

Things are not as neat and simple as you make them out to be. There are many more things involved but in your little pollyannaish world none of those things exist. You seem to have no grasp of reality.

For the move: they can lay off the liquor and alcohol for a few months, and put the savings toward a bus ticket and first month’s rent for a room in someone’s house.

It is nice how you assume every poor person is also a drunk or an alcoholic. Or that everyone knows someone else in a different town they can just go stay with for a few months.

 

[Bobob]

I keep hearing the left say that minimum wage, which is what the lowest 2% of Americans earn, needs to be increased to where it provides a “livable“ wage. The disconnect comes in what is considered livable - even for teens who barely squeaked through high school and have no job skills beyond that which can be taught to a middle schooler in half a day.

The left considers “livable” to be a middle class existence - a decent one-bedroom apartment, a car, a vacation. Where they miss is that is the level to which people should ASPIRE, and the desire to do so is what incentivizes one to get some vocational training (at a minimum).

To me, “livable” is how every member of my family lived when we were first starting out: either renting a room in someone’s house, or sharing a two- or three-bedroom apartment with others. I considered myself “living” doing that - I took the subway to work, did my job, bought groceries, and other basics.

And THAT is the lifestyle of someone right out of college, earning starting wages, or of a new high school graduate who has no real job skills to offer. In the case of the former, it will be temporary; in the case of the latter, it is rarely permanent as most people acquire job skills with experience.

The minimum wage is not a living wage, nor should it be. Rather, it was meant to be a "learning wage"and a wage for students in the summer months. Somehow, it has morphed into a "living wage" issue, and it is hardly that.

 

[Lisa558]

What about people that are in a deep hole because of their own bad choices? People that have demonstrated that they can't or won't make good decisions. Where do we draw the line there? Should they be helped or left to cause crime and chaos?

So you are saying pay people so they won’t commit crimes? My parents grew up dirt poor, and nobody so much as pinched a lipstick from the five-and-dime.

But to answer your question, people who are irresponsible and make bad decisions get the life we now provide: subsidized housing, food stamps, and free medical care for themselves and their kids.

 

[Anomalism]

But to answer your question, people who are irresponsible and make bad decisions get the life we now provide: subsidized housing, food stamps, and free medical care for themselves and their kids.

You agree with the existence of these safety nets?

 

[Lisa558]

Not everyone can get a Pell Grant, and a Pell grant will not pay for all of school.

Things are not as neat and simple as you make them out to be. There are many more things involved but in your little pollyannaish world none of those things exist. You seem to have no grasp of reality.

YOU have no sense of realityl We should just give, give, give poor people money until they can enjoy their own apartment, a car, and other trappings of middle class life?

Not everyone can get a Pell Grant, and a Pell grant will not pay for all of school.

Things are not as neat and simple as you make them out to be. There are many more things involved but in your little pollyannaish world none of those things exist. You seem to have no grasp of reality.



It is nice how you assume every poor person is also a drunk or an alcoholic. Or that everyone knows someone else in a different town they can just go stay with for a few months.

YES. Every poor person can get a Pell Grant, and they are more than $6000 a year. That pays for community college, enough to get them out of poverty and into the lower-middle class, at the minimum.

You ascribe all sorts of wonderful traits to poor people who find themselves in their situation - along with excuses. Never their own fault, eh. Well, when I worked a couple of summers in a financial aid office at the local CC, kids who qualified for Pell didn’t want to complete the forms! You should have heard them bitch. They wanted OTHER people to pay for their education, and yet they didn’t even want to bother with a form.

 

[Lisa558]

You agree with the existence of these safety nets?

Yeah, I do. I’m a realist. We can provide free education to poor people so they won’t be dependent on other people’s money their entire life, but some people are either unmotivated or just dumb. Thus, we have to provide a bare-bones existence for them to keep them from living on the streets.

 

[initforme]

$300 per month per kid doesn't equate to all that much. If that exceeds job pay we have a big time wage issue