Minority kids are stupid

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

That’s amazing... kudos to your daughter for doing an excellent job grooming our youth!

Sadly, that is the appropriate word when five year olds are learning the Gettysburg address and memorizing state capitols. "Grooming", not learning. Just memorizing and spewing, that's all. They cannot process that information. They do not understand how long ago one year was, let alone the Civil War. They do not understand how far away the next town is, let alone the next state.

Mac this is no remark on what kind of teacher your daughter is. She is probably having to teach in the iron grip of that Charter school and so it is. She is probably a phenomenal teacher. But that curriculum is not good for learning and ESPECIALLY not 21st century learning. I know that sounds like "liberal code buzz" or whatever but it's true. We don't need people who can memorize stuff that is meaningless to them.

We need people who can make meaning out of what was meaningless before. THAT take genius creativity. You don't get that by teaching five year olds the Gettysburg address.

I sense a terminal case of "charter school" envy here. Just because it doesn't fit the developmental models that your ed school pushed and the unions insist on..

It's a kick start for kids who CAN capitalize on the extra stimulation and does no HARM at that age for kids who aren't motivated by their early success..

As "they" say... Don't knock it til you've tried it and documented the results. And if there's one thing that American needs --- it IS results..

WTF is HEADSTART and PRE-K if NOT attempts to "jump-start" their little cranial engines?

I wish all of you educator wannabes would realize the unions have zero input on curriculum in public schools. You continuously propagate this lie out of ignorance.

 

[OldLady]

Worse still... The still is the unforgivable crime of convincing all of these kids that they must go to college; when a majority of them flat out, aren’t college material. Which saddles the average enrollee with a debt that on average takes 20 years to pay off. If it weren’t for colleges selling worthless degrees; most of these kids would have no degree at all. And they’d be better off for it. They could pursue careers in profitable trades, and start making money where they might actually have a chance of success. Instead most teachers push kids into a mistake that can take decades to pay off. When they could have been improving their lives.
When’s the last time you heard of a kid flunking out of college? You don’t. No one turns down a paying customer...

I just showed you 30% flunk/drop out.

I'm so glad I got my college degree but it could have been done a better way. They should have a 2 year sales associates rather than make me go 4 years to a business school just to get out and be a salesperson. I didn't need all that.

They need to make better 2 year degrees too and have them be worth something to employers. So rather than make the kid try to get a 4 year degree, which is hard and a lot of work, they could just get a 2 year associates

but right now an associates is worthless pretty much in the business world. That's bullshit.

I can't argue with you too much. It's a racket that's for sure.

Most kids who want to go to college but drop out don't want to go into a trade. They don't know what they want to do. That's why they go to college. Not all but a lot. And that's why a lot drop out or get kicked out.

So that's another thing teachers are doing wrong. Their kids graduate and they don't even know what they want to do. Why does it take humans so long to mature?

Expecting teachers to decide for kids what they want to do with their lives? Is that asking a bit much? THINK about it.
School did not used to be solely for the purpose of getting a job. Now it is. This whole push for EVERYONE to go to college or trade school after high school is silly when you think about why that is. It is because high school doesn't prepare you to make a living wage and doesn't teach the skills necessary to get on in life. But instead of improving the K-12 curriculum and standards, they push two years of a trade school or four years of college that costs $$$$ instead. Makes no sense for most people.

I am intrigued as to your reasoning. What skills do you believe are needed to make a living wage that are not taught in high school?

By "living wage" I am not talking about minimum wage jobs, Admiral. Although employers in our area are crying that the high school grads coming to them can't make change or read directions or have any concept of employability soft skills, like calling in if you can't show up, and not calling in twice a week, every week.
I teach college transitions and the math skills some of these kids have (or haven't) boggle even my mind--no concept of the meaning of a decimal point, how to figure the price of something that is 25% off, how to figure simple interest on a loan. Not even sure how to attack a word problem involving nothing but subtraction.

It is input from community employers and the admissions office at the local college, all screaming, that the kids aren't prepared. And I see it as we fill the potholes for kids who somehow got that diploma for apparently nothing but showing up and breathing.

Let's go back to my comment about not being able to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. I had students who could do all of those things you mentioned, the first time I tested them. My final exams were simply questions selected from previous exams. I gave them study guides to show what was going to be on the test. My results were usually in excess of 60% failed. Those are the people you are trying to hire. They retain nothing for more than the time it takes to get past the test. The have a memory like a capacitor. You can charge a capacitor for months, but as soon as it discharges, there is nothing left!

Failing the final exam is never enough for them to keep from failing. My classes averaged a D on most days, and occasionally a C. You work with what you are given and no effort by the teachers will change it, because all my classes were the same as all of the other teachers teaching the same subject. Most of the time other teachers were trying to get their students to catch up to my students!

They don't remember it because they never understood the underlying reasons why it worked. Train a kid to subtract fractions like a trained monkey and they can do it as long as you keep reminding them, but as soon as they stop using it they will forget because they don't get what a fraction actually represents.
They need a lot more learning time and different methods. The public school system just doesn't have the time for that. It's all about spitting out workers as fast as possible.
I wish the government would get the hell out of education. The paperwork is overwhelming, along with the tomes of rules and guidelines and accountability horseshit.

When it comes to education, it appears that one end of the spectrum would like to see Bible study interspersed between Sean Hannity podcasts, and the other end would like to see sensitivity training interspersed between microaggression awareness meetings.

For our kid's sake, and for our country's sake, I'm so happy schools like my daughter's exist.
.

Good for you! If ignorance is bliss, you should be very happy!

If y'all hadn't hollered at him so much about it, Mac might have listened to what all the teachers here are saying to him. I think Mac's reaction to the "95th percentile in the state" is a perfect example of why education in this country has gotten so screwed up. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the motivational style of teaching that Mac's daughter is using, and the children are obviously comfortable with it and excelling with it. But he is not able to hear that what they are insisting these kids learn for the sake of achieving those high scores is not based in solid pedagogy. It's all about the numbers, man. And non-educators sitting on school boards all over the country are making the same mistake.

It never ends.

Every teacher is using "motivational teaching" unless they absolutely suck, and then they should get out. That should be obvious.

I'd be very interested to follow these kids in the charter school and see how long it lasts. Or see if the charter school can retain teachers.

I have been trying to figure out why they are pushing them into 3rd grade skills like math and writing cursive at age 5. Does that mean that in 1st grade they are working at Grade 4 level? When do they graduate? Age 11?
I have read of a few charter schools that work with local community colleges and some high school students can actually graduate with an associates degree. That's the only reason I can think of to push the kids way beyond grade level.

 

[SweetSue92]

When it comes to education, it appears that one end of the spectrum would like to see Bible study interspersed between Sean Hannity podcasts, and the other end would like to see sensitivity training interspersed between microaggression awareness meetings.

For our kid's sake, and for our country's sake, I'm so happy schools like my daughter's exist.
.

No you're getting challenged and so resorted to politics.

Sure, wingers are very consistent. Left wingers are desperate to keep standards & expectations low for minorities and hate charter schools, Right wingers are on this bizarro anti-education, anti-intelligence thing. Each of them have their little piece of turf to protect. It's all coming out on this thread, clear as a bell. Politics poisons everything.

Meanwhile, the kids are kicking ass, showing that skin color is irrelevant and that maintaining standards & expectations can yield fantastic results.

Outstanding. And funny.
.

I'm a conservative public school teacher, evangelical Christian, who does not belong to the NEA and who doesn't give a fig what "skin color" these kids have. Trauma matters, upbringing matters, socioeconomics matter. Melanin, not so much. That's first.

Second, you keep saying the same thing and are not listening to actual educators on this thread. Okay then.

 

[SweetSue92]

I just showed you 30% flunk/drop out.

I'm so glad I got my college degree but it could have been done a better way. They should have a 2 year sales associates rather than make me go 4 years to a business school just to get out and be a salesperson. I didn't need all that.

They need to make better 2 year degrees too and have them be worth something to employers. So rather than make the kid try to get a 4 year degree, which is hard and a lot of work, they could just get a 2 year associates

but right now an associates is worthless pretty much in the business world. That's bullshit.

I can't argue with you too much. It's a racket that's for sure.

Most kids who want to go to college but drop out don't want to go into a trade. They don't know what they want to do. That's why they go to college. Not all but a lot. And that's why a lot drop out or get kicked out.

So that's another thing teachers are doing wrong. Their kids graduate and they don't even know what they want to do. Why does it take humans so long to mature?

Expecting teachers to decide for kids what they want to do with their lives? Is that asking a bit much? THINK about it.
School did not used to be solely for the purpose of getting a job. Now it is. This whole push for EVERYONE to go to college or trade school after high school is silly when you think about why that is. It is because high school doesn't prepare you to make a living wage and doesn't teach the skills necessary to get on in life. But instead of improving the K-12 curriculum and standards, they push two years of a trade school or four years of college that costs $$$$ instead. Makes no sense for most people.

I am intrigued as to your reasoning. What skills do you believe are needed to make a living wage that are not taught in high school?

By "living wage" I am not talking about minimum wage jobs, Admiral. Although employers in our area are crying that the high school grads coming to them can't make change or read directions or have any concept of employability soft skills, like calling in if you can't show up, and not calling in twice a week, every week.
I teach college transitions and the math skills some of these kids have (or haven't) boggle even my mind--no concept of the meaning of a decimal point, how to figure the price of something that is 25% off, how to figure simple interest on a loan. Not even sure how to attack a word problem involving nothing but subtraction.

It is input from community employers and the admissions office at the local college, all screaming, that the kids aren't prepared. And I see it as we fill the potholes for kids who somehow got that diploma for apparently nothing but showing up and breathing.

Let's go back to my comment about not being able to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. I had students who could do all of those things you mentioned, the first time I tested them. My final exams were simply questions selected from previous exams. I gave them study guides to show what was going to be on the test. My results were usually in excess of 60% failed. Those are the people you are trying to hire. They retain nothing for more than the time it takes to get past the test. The have a memory like a capacitor. You can charge a capacitor for months, but as soon as it discharges, there is nothing left!

Failing the final exam is never enough for them to keep from failing. My classes averaged a D on most days, and occasionally a C. You work with what you are given and no effort by the teachers will change it, because all my classes were the same as all of the other teachers teaching the same subject. Most of the time other teachers were trying to get their students to catch up to my students!

They don't remember it because they never understood the underlying reasons why it worked. Train a kid to subtract fractions like a trained monkey and they can do it as long as you keep reminding them, but as soon as they stop using it they will forget because they don't get what a fraction actually represents.
They need a lot more learning time and different methods. The public school system just doesn't have the time for that. It's all about spitting out workers as fast as possible.
I wish the government would get the hell out of education. The paperwork is overwhelming, along with the tomes of rules and guidelines and accountability horseshit.

When it comes to education, it appears that one end of the spectrum would like to see Bible study interspersed between Sean Hannity podcasts, and the other end would like to see sensitivity training interspersed between microaggression awareness meetings.

For our kid's sake, and for our country's sake, I'm so happy schools like my daughter's exist.
.

Good for you! If ignorance is bliss, you should be very happy!

If y'all hadn't hollered at him so much about it, Mac might have listened to what all the teachers here are saying to him. I think Mac's reaction to the "95th percentile in the state" is a perfect example of why education in this country has gotten so screwed up. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the motivational style of teaching that Mac's daughter is using, and the children are obviously comfortable with it and excelling with it. But he is not able to hear that what they are insisting these kids learn for the sake of achieving those high scores is not based in solid pedagogy. It's all about the numbers, man. And non-educators sitting on school boards all over the country are making the same mistake.

It never ends.

Every teacher is using "motivational teaching" unless they absolutely suck, and then they should get out. That should be obvious.

I'd be very interested to follow these kids in the charter school and see how long it lasts. Or see if the charter school can retain teachers.

I have been trying to figure out why they are pushing them into 3rd grade skills like math and writing cursive at age 5. Does that mean that in 1st grade they are working at Grade 4 level? When do they graduate? Age 11?
I have read of a few charter schools that work with local community colleges and some high school students can actually graduate with an associates degree. That's the only reason I can think of to push the kids way beyond grade level.

I would suspect it's for bragging rights. And listen, if charter schools actually produce quality education and great result, MORE POWER TO THEM. I'm not at all opposed. Whatever works for kids. But spewing rote memorization is not it. It's not learning; it's not understanding.

 

[SweetSue92]

Mac, if your daughter is beyond, say, her third year of teaching--ask her what she thinks of having her students memorize the Gettysburg address and learn cursive at five years old. IOW if she could design any curriculum whatsoever, is this what she would be doing with her students?

Because I don't mean to disparage your daughter--again, she's probably under the thumb of some knucklehead admin. Sorry, Admiral. A good admin is worth their weight in pure gold, and I mean that. A bad one can completely derail your career and spends all of their time only covering for what a complete knucklehead they are. I have seen both.

 

[sealybobo]

....

Thanks for admitting what you think about the kids you teach every day. ....

You of course have no idea what it’s like to teach, and therefore no idea what you’re talking about no matter how hard you try to keep talking about it including the use of misrepresentations and flat out lies. What I think about the students I teach every day is that I have great admiration for how hard they try to overcome challenges that SOME people couldn’t even imagine. Some people who enjoy all the benefits necessary to send a rather mediocre student to college who then finds he nearly fails out because he can’t walk and chew gum at the same time. I’m talking about real challenges, not whiny little excuses by the pampered and the soft and weak. Real challenges like trying to do high-level academic work in a second or third language while adapting to a new life in a new culture. Real challenges like walking to and from school through some of the most dangerous neighborhoods in the country. Real challenges like avoiding the drug pushers waiting in the cafeteria or after school to threaten students and their families if they don’t get on board with the sales program. Real challenges like heavy drug abuse, Mental illness absenteeism and violence at home. Violence of the sort some people who think they’re bad asses couldn’t even imagine. Real challenges like being a teenager forced to live independently and fend for oneself including rent and groceries and working at least one full-time job while going to high school. Real challenges like homelessness. Real challenges like bullets whizzing through your kitchen in the middle of the night. Real challenges that mouthy sons of bitches on the Internet can’t fucking imagine. What I really think of the students I teach every day is that I admire them greatly; they have greater strength of character and more iron in their will than most people who ever post on this website. Circumstance and life choices will keep most of them from going to college, but not their children and not the children’s children, and they know this. They know this and even though they are still youngsters themselves they are making sacrifices in planning lives and generations in America through hard work and sacrifice while trying to get the best education they can. That is why I will not do them the disservice of wallowing in low expectations.

Finally a good reply from you.

 

[OldLady]

When it comes to education, it appears that one end of the spectrum would like to see Bible study interspersed between Sean Hannity podcasts, and the other end would like to see sensitivity training interspersed between microaggression awareness meetings.

For our kid's sake, and for our country's sake, I'm so happy schools like my daughter's exist.
.

No you're getting challenged and so resorted to politics.

Sure, wingers are very consistent. Left wingers are desperate to keep standards & expectations low for minorities and hate charter schools, Right wingers are on this bizarro anti-education, anti-intelligence thing. Each of them have their little piece of turf to protect. It's all coming out on this thread, clear as a bell. Politics poisons everything.

Meanwhile, the kids are kicking ass, showing that skin color is irrelevant and that maintaining standards & expectations can yield fantastic results.

Outstanding. And funny.
.

I'm a conservative public school teacher, evangelical Christian, who does not belong to the NEA and who doesn't give a fig what "skin color" these kids have. Trauma matters, upbringing matters, socioeconomics matter. Melanin, not so much. That's first.

Second, you keep saying the same thing and are not listening to actual educators on this thread. Okay then.

Well, Sue, as teachers we have to keep an open mind to new ways of teaching. However, the jury is still out on the cursive writing debate--and not even the researchers are talking about teaching it at age 5.

The debate on whether or not learning cursive is beneficial to the brain, is faster for students or is helpful with dyslexia rages on and the evidence is not complete enough to point to any studies that show there is a real cognitive benefit to understanding how to write and read cursive text.
Is Cursive Writing Good for the Brain? | Neuroscience

 

[sealybobo]

..... He says he is doing the best possible job educating young minds. .....

I of course never said that. Once again you resort to dishonesty when you invariably lose the ability to defend yourself with reason.

I have to infer because until two posts ago you’ve never said more that 4 words at a time.

 

[SweetSue92]

When it comes to education, it appears that one end of the spectrum would like to see Bible study interspersed between Sean Hannity podcasts, and the other end would like to see sensitivity training interspersed between microaggression awareness meetings.

For our kid's sake, and for our country's sake, I'm so happy schools like my daughter's exist.
.

No you're getting challenged and so resorted to politics.

Sure, wingers are very consistent. Left wingers are desperate to keep standards & expectations low for minorities and hate charter schools, Right wingers are on this bizarro anti-education, anti-intelligence thing. Each of them have their little piece of turf to protect. It's all coming out on this thread, clear as a bell. Politics poisons everything.

Meanwhile, the kids are kicking ass, showing that skin color is irrelevant and that maintaining standards & expectations can yield fantastic results.

Outstanding. And funny.
.

I'm a conservative public school teacher, evangelical Christian, who does not belong to the NEA and who doesn't give a fig what "skin color" these kids have. Trauma matters, upbringing matters, socioeconomics matter. Melanin, not so much. That's first.

Second, you keep saying the same thing and are not listening to actual educators on this thread. Okay then.

Well, Sue, as teachers we have to keep an open mind to new ways of teaching. However, the jury is still out on the cursive writing debate--and not even the researchers are talking about teaching it at age 5.

The debate on whether or not learning cursive is beneficial to the brain, is faster for students or is helpful with dyslexia rages on and the evidence is not complete enough to point to any studies that show there is a real cognitive benefit to understanding how to write and read cursive text.
Is Cursive Writing Good for the Brain? | Neuroscience

Agree 100% on the cursive debate around about 3rd grade, and would be open to hearing both sides.

Kindergarten?

Well I guess I have made my opinion clear

 

[sealybobo]

That was one effective strategy. It also worked on bacteria that prefer to thrive in the mouths of some “races” over that of others. It even conned physiology, and medicine into the act. One hell of a strategy indeed.

Physiology and medicine?

Yes.

Then you should be able to explain or provide a link to somewhere that can explain what you are talking about.

Some are discussed here if you are interested. There are many more, and they’re at your fingertips if your curiosity moves you to learn about it.

In other words, you didn't watch that video, nor have you read much about it, nor could you give an informed summary in your own words.

And what’s his point? We are different. So what? Is that a reason not to vote the same?

 

[OldLady]

Expecting teachers to decide for kids what they want to do with their lives? Is that asking a bit much? THINK about it.
School did not used to be solely for the purpose of getting a job. Now it is. This whole push for EVERYONE to go to college or trade school after high school is silly when you think about why that is. It is because high school doesn't prepare you to make a living wage and doesn't teach the skills necessary to get on in life. But instead of improving the K-12 curriculum and standards, they push two years of a trade school or four years of college that costs $$$$ instead. Makes no sense for most people.

I am intrigued as to your reasoning. What skills do you believe are needed to make a living wage that are not taught in high school?

By "living wage" I am not talking about minimum wage jobs, Admiral. Although employers in our area are crying that the high school grads coming to them can't make change or read directions or have any concept of employability soft skills, like calling in if you can't show up, and not calling in twice a week, every week.
I teach college transitions and the math skills some of these kids have (or haven't) boggle even my mind--no concept of the meaning of a decimal point, how to figure the price of something that is 25% off, how to figure simple interest on a loan. Not even sure how to attack a word problem involving nothing but subtraction.

It is input from community employers and the admissions office at the local college, all screaming, that the kids aren't prepared. And I see it as we fill the potholes for kids who somehow got that diploma for apparently nothing but showing up and breathing.

Let's go back to my comment about not being able to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. I had students who could do all of those things you mentioned, the first time I tested them. My final exams were simply questions selected from previous exams. I gave them study guides to show what was going to be on the test. My results were usually in excess of 60% failed. Those are the people you are trying to hire. They retain nothing for more than the time it takes to get past the test. The have a memory like a capacitor. You can charge a capacitor for months, but as soon as it discharges, there is nothing left!

Failing the final exam is never enough for them to keep from failing. My classes averaged a D on most days, and occasionally a C. You work with what you are given and no effort by the teachers will change it, because all my classes were the same as all of the other teachers teaching the same subject. Most of the time other teachers were trying to get their students to catch up to my students!

They don't remember it because they never understood the underlying reasons why it worked. Train a kid to subtract fractions like a trained monkey and they can do it as long as you keep reminding them, but as soon as they stop using it they will forget because they don't get what a fraction actually represents.
They need a lot more learning time and different methods. The public school system just doesn't have the time for that. It's all about spitting out workers as fast as possible.
I wish the government would get the hell out of education. The paperwork is overwhelming, along with the tomes of rules and guidelines and accountability horseshit.

When it comes to education, it appears that one end of the spectrum would like to see Bible study interspersed between Sean Hannity podcasts, and the other end would like to see sensitivity training interspersed between microaggression awareness meetings.

For our kid's sake, and for our country's sake, I'm so happy schools like my daughter's exist.
.

Good for you! If ignorance is bliss, you should be very happy!

If y'all hadn't hollered at him so much about it, Mac might have listened to what all the teachers here are saying to him. I think Mac's reaction to the "95th percentile in the state" is a perfect example of why education in this country has gotten so screwed up. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the motivational style of teaching that Mac's daughter is using, and the children are obviously comfortable with it and excelling with it. But he is not able to hear that what they are insisting these kids learn for the sake of achieving those high scores is not based in solid pedagogy. It's all about the numbers, man. And non-educators sitting on school boards all over the country are making the same mistake.

It never ends.

Every teacher is using "motivational teaching" unless they absolutely suck, and then they should get out. That should be obvious.

I'd be very interested to follow these kids in the charter school and see how long it lasts. Or see if the charter school can retain teachers.

I have been trying to figure out why they are pushing them into 3rd grade skills like math and writing cursive at age 5. Does that mean that in 1st grade they are working at Grade 4 level? When do they graduate? Age 11?
I have read of a few charter schools that work with local community colleges and some high school students can actually graduate with an associates degree. That's the only reason I can think of to push the kids way beyond grade level.

I would suspect it's for bragging rights. And listen, if charter schools actually produce quality education and great result, MORE POWER TO THEM. I'm not at all opposed. Whatever works for kids. But spewing rote memorization is not it. It's not learning; it's not understanding.

Yes, like my thinking Baby Jesus was sleeping in heavenly peas.

 

[sealybobo]

That’s amazing... kudos to your daughter for doing an excellent job grooming our youth!

Yes it is amazing finding a teacher actually teaching kids something they need instead of brainwashing them.

The only brainwashing that takes place is that people like you think that brainwashing is occurring in every school in the country and in every classroom.

This. It's a conservative talking point. I say this as a conservative.

Yes, it's the Republican war on education. If you don't like education because you don't get to preach creation science and you are threatened by science then you trash education.

The government is the enemy too. Forget the fact that it's our government. Ignore that the problem is rich people own our government. Never mind all that. Just say the government is the enemy. That's as much as Republicans can understand. Any more explanation goes over their heads.

Scientists are the enemy too. Not the corporate polluters.. It's the scientists who are lying.

And progressive liberals and unions who created the middle class are the enemy too not the corporations who sent their jobs overseas.

And illegals are the problem, not immigrants but employers.

No such thing as a war on education. That's just another libstain lie. Education has been going down the toilet for decades. Libstains are destroying it.

See how they do everyone? I don’t see sweetsue92 or unkotare arguing with you so I’m going to assume they agree with you. Unless they challenge you

 

[Vastator]

Physiology and medicine?

Yes.

Then you should be able to explain or provide a link to somewhere that can explain what you are talking about.

Some are discussed here if you are interested. There are many more, and they’re at your fingertips if your curiosity moves you to learn about it.

In other words, you didn't watch that video, nor have you read much about it, nor could you give an informed summary in your own words.

And what’s his point? We are different. So what? Is that a reason not to vote the same?

His point his rather self evident. We. Are. Not. The. Same... The Equality/Diversity cult that chants such fallacious mantras as “there’s only one race; the human race”, or “we are all the same”... Are categorically, and demonstrably wrong. Worse still? Most of them know this and continue to knowingly repeat lies. And when ones “solutions to societies ills are founded on disinformation, and lies; these attempts at fruitful progress are doomed to fail.

 

[sealybobo]

That's sad and awful.

When did this weird paranoia about intelligence and education begin?

It really is okay to be intelligent and educated. Really.

I can't believe I just said that.
.

So in your estimation, being "intelligent and educated" means spewing back, literally, a bunch of random sounds and words for which you have no idea the meaning. And could not explain to anyone if your life depended on it.

That is no where near "learning"--it is mere rote memorization. Memorization has limited used when it is a building block for other knowledge, absolutely: IOW, multiplication tables. The Gettysburg Address in kindergarten is a performance trick.

I'll say it again:

It's not about what they are actually learning at that age. It's about teaching them how to learn.

It's about exercising their minds from different directions. Giving them lots of positive feedback. Constantly. Showing them they can do it.

That's the point. That's what this is all about. I would think that's huge.

If that's not good enough for you, then sorry.
.

My nephews go to the most expensive private school in the state. Lots of pressure and homework. High expectations when you are paying $25K a year per kid. You can get into Harvard going to this school.

My brother became a VP of a fortune 500 company not because of public high school but in spite of it. He struggled his first year at MSU and I struggled my first year at EMU. I/We didn't know how to study. Not like you have to study in college. 5 classes a semester kind of studying. It wasn't easy to learn.

What is the difference between their private education and our public education? When they go to college it's going to be easier than high school was for them. But for us public school kids, it's tough figuring it all out on our own when we go to college. We were not prepared. The unkotares and sweetsue92's failed us.

And a lot of us thought we were smart because we got A's and B's in our public schools. Those A's are private school B's. And our B's are their C's.

I know that school, I know people who teach there, and I have observed at that school. I can tell you and every poster here that the idea of writing in cursive in kindergarten and memorizing the Gettysburg address in kindergarten would be roundly laughed out the door even at the "top private school in the state". Because, again, it's not actual rigor.

My nephew didn’t go to that school until they came back from Switzerland. Before they went to Switzerland for four years they went to Montessori.

I asked my teacher friend about what we are talking about. Of course I didn’t tell her what a jerk I’ve been on the subject but she said there is nothing you guys can do about unmotivated kids. You simply have to deal with them and focus more on the ones who are motivated. And too often you’re busy dealing with the most troubled kids.

The reason they didn’t do public school in elementary is they live in Dearborn, mi. My brother wasn’t going to send them to a majority Muslim kids school. We went to an all black school in Detroit till 4th and 5th grade. It was not fun.

 

[sealybobo]

When it comes to education, it appears that one end of the spectrum would like to see Bible study interspersed between Sean Hannity podcasts, and the other end would like to see sensitivity training interspersed between microaggression awareness meetings.

For our kid's sake, and for our country's sake, I'm so happy schools like my daughter's exist.
.

No you're getting challenged and so resorted to politics.

Sure, wingers are very consistent. Left wingers are desperate to keep standards & expectations low for minorities and hate charter schools, Right wingers are on this bizarro anti-education, anti-intelligence thing. Each of them have their little piece of turf to protect. It's all coming out on this thread, clear as a bell. Politics poisons everything.

Meanwhile, the kids are kicking ass, showing that skin color is irrelevant and that maintaining standards & expectations can yield fantastic results.

Outstanding. And funny.
.

The truth lies somewhere in between.

Minorities do score lower than whites on act’s and sat’s. Even middle class two parent home black kids score lower than whites. In fact blacks score on average about the same as low income whites. Some say those tests are bias but it has to be more than that. They say the difference might be how black parents interact with their kids vs. how white parents parent their kids. Also I bet pre school factors into it.

I used to not want private school parents shouldn’t get a tax break for sending their kids to private school because it would hurt public schools but no I’m all for people who don’t use public schools getting a tax break.

 

[dannyboys]

When did this weird paranoia about intelligence and education begin?

It really is okay to be intelligent and educated. Really.

I can't believe I just said that.
.

So in your estimation, being "intelligent and educated" means spewing back, literally, a bunch of random sounds and words for which you have no idea the meaning. And could not explain to anyone if your life depended on it.

That is no where near "learning"--it is mere rote memorization. Memorization has limited used when it is a building block for other knowledge, absolutely: IOW, multiplication tables. The Gettysburg Address in kindergarten is a performance trick.

I'll say it again:

It's not about what they are actually learning at that age. It's about teaching them how to learn.

It's about exercising their minds from different directions. Giving them lots of positive feedback. Constantly. Showing them they can do it.

That's the point. That's what this is all about. I would think that's huge.

If that's not good enough for you, then sorry.
.

My nephews go to the most expensive private school in the state. Lots of pressure and homework. High expectations when you are paying $25K a year per kid. You can get into Harvard going to this school.

My brother became a VP of a fortune 500 company not because of public high school but in spite of it. He struggled his first year at MSU and I struggled my first year at EMU. I/We didn't know how to study. Not like you have to study in college. 5 classes a semester kind of studying. It wasn't easy to learn.

What is the difference between their private education and our public education? When they go to college it's going to be easier than high school was for them. But for us public school kids, it's tough figuring it all out on our own when we go to college. We were not prepared. The unkotares and sweetsue92's failed us.

And a lot of us thought we were smart because we got A's and B's in our public schools. Those A's are private school B's. And our B's are their C's.

I know that school, I know people who teach there, and I have observed at that school. I can tell you and every poster here that the idea of writing in cursive in kindergarten and memorizing the Gettysburg address in kindergarten would be roundly laughed out the door even at the "top private school in the state". Because, again, it's not actual rigor.

My nephew didn’t go to that school until they came back from Switzerland. Before they went to Switzerland for four years they went to Montessori.

I asked my teacher friend about what we are talking about. Of course I didn’t tell her what a jerk I’ve been on the subject but she said there is nothing you guys can do about unmotivated kids. You simply have to deal with them and focus more on the ones who are motivated. And too often you’re busy dealing with the most troubled kids.

The reason they didn’t do public school in elementary is they live in Dearborn, mi. My brother wasn’t going to send them to a majority Muslim kids school. We went to an all black school in Detroit till 4th and 5th grade. It was not fun.

As a kid I lived in S. Chicago.
You think Detroit was "not fun"?
Detroit was Disneyland. S.C. schools were fucking Darfur civil war zones by comparison! They still are only more twelve year olds are being shot now by other twelve year olds over a pair of looted Air Jordans.

 

[sealybobo]

Yes.

Then you should be able to explain or provide a link to somewhere that can explain what you are talking about.

Some are discussed here if you are interested. There are many more, and they’re at your fingertips if your curiosity moves you to learn about it.

In other words, you didn't watch that video, nor have you read much about it, nor could you give an informed summary in your own words.

And what’s his point? We are different. So what? Is that a reason not to vote the same?

His point his rather self evident. We. Are. Not. The. Same... The Equality/Diversity cult that chants such fallacious mantras as “there’s only one race; the human race”, or “we are all the same”... Are categorically, and demonstrably wrong. Worse still? Most of them know this and continue to knowingly repeat lies. And when ones “solutions to societies ills are founded on disinformation, and lies; these attempts at fruitful progress are doomed to fail.

You’re creepy. If we didn’t have different races you would divide us by eye color or hair. You’re not good hearted are you.

 

[sealybobo]

So in your estimation, being "intelligent and educated" means spewing back, literally, a bunch of random sounds and words for which you have no idea the meaning. And could not explain to anyone if your life depended on it.

That is no where near "learning"--it is mere rote memorization. Memorization has limited used when it is a building block for other knowledge, absolutely: IOW, multiplication tables. The Gettysburg Address in kindergarten is a performance trick.

I'll say it again:

It's not about what they are actually learning at that age. It's about teaching them how to learn.

It's about exercising their minds from different directions. Giving them lots of positive feedback. Constantly. Showing them they can do it.

That's the point. That's what this is all about. I would think that's huge.

If that's not good enough for you, then sorry.
.

My nephews go to the most expensive private school in the state. Lots of pressure and homework. High expectations when you are paying $25K a year per kid. You can get into Harvard going to this school.

My brother became a VP of a fortune 500 company not because of public high school but in spite of it. He struggled his first year at MSU and I struggled my first year at EMU. I/We didn't know how to study. Not like you have to study in college. 5 classes a semester kind of studying. It wasn't easy to learn.

What is the difference between their private education and our public education? When they go to college it's going to be easier than high school was for them. But for us public school kids, it's tough figuring it all out on our own when we go to college. We were not prepared. The unkotares and sweetsue92's failed us.

And a lot of us thought we were smart because we got A's and B's in our public schools. Those A's are private school B's. And our B's are their C's.

I know that school, I know people who teach there, and I have observed at that school. I can tell you and every poster here that the idea of writing in cursive in kindergarten and memorizing the Gettysburg address in kindergarten would be roundly laughed out the door even at the "top private school in the state". Because, again, it's not actual rigor.

My nephew didn’t go to that school until they came back from Switzerland. Before they went to Switzerland for four years they went to Montessori.

I asked my teacher friend about what we are talking about. Of course I didn’t tell her what a jerk I’ve been on the subject but she said there is nothing you guys can do about unmotivated kids. You simply have to deal with them and focus more on the ones who are motivated. And too often you’re busy dealing with the most troubled kids.

The reason they didn’t do public school in elementary is they live in Dearborn, mi. My brother wasn’t going to send them to a majority Muslim kids school. We went to an all black school in Detroit till 4th and 5th grade. It was not fun.

As a kid I lived in S. Chicago.
You think Detroit was "not fun"?
Detroit was Disneyland. S.C. schools were fucking Darfur civil war zones by comparison! They still are only more twelve year olds are being shot now by other twelve year olds over a pair of looted Air Jordans.

You are probably right but consider this. I was one of the only three whites in my all black school in the mid 70s. Blacks were not happy then.

Also the year we moved the Detroit news came out with the top ten most dangerous schools in Detroit. 1-9 were highschools. Number ten was my middle school. They put the principal in the hospital. They would do raids on lockers and find guns.

 

[OldLady]

Expecting teachers to decide for kids what they want to do with their lives? Is that asking a bit much? THINK about it.
School did not used to be solely for the purpose of getting a job. Now it is. This whole push for EVERYONE to go to college or trade school after high school is silly when you think about why that is. It is because high school doesn't prepare you to make a living wage and doesn't teach the skills necessary to get on in life. But instead of improving the K-12 curriculum and standards, they push two years of a trade school or four years of college that costs $$$$ instead. Makes no sense for most people.

I am intrigued as to your reasoning. What skills do you believe are needed to make a living wage that are not taught in high school?

By "living wage" I am not talking about minimum wage jobs, Admiral. Although employers in our area are crying that the high school grads coming to them can't make change or read directions or have any concept of employability soft skills, like calling in if you can't show up, and not calling in twice a week, every week.
I teach college transitions and the math skills some of these kids have (or haven't) boggle even my mind--no concept of the meaning of a decimal point, how to figure the price of something that is 25% off, how to figure simple interest on a loan. Not even sure how to attack a word problem involving nothing but subtraction.

It is input from community employers and the admissions office at the local college, all screaming, that the kids aren't prepared. And I see it as we fill the potholes for kids who somehow got that diploma for apparently nothing but showing up and breathing.

Let's go back to my comment about not being able to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. I had students who could do all of those things you mentioned, the first time I tested them. My final exams were simply questions selected from previous exams. I gave them study guides to show what was going to be on the test. My results were usually in excess of 60% failed. Those are the people you are trying to hire. They retain nothing for more than the time it takes to get past the test. The have a memory like a capacitor. You can charge a capacitor for months, but as soon as it discharges, there is nothing left!

Failing the final exam is never enough for them to keep from failing. My classes averaged a D on most days, and occasionally a C. You work with what you are given and no effort by the teachers will change it, because all my classes were the same as all of the other teachers teaching the same subject. Most of the time other teachers were trying to get their students to catch up to my students!

They don't remember it because they never understood the underlying reasons why it worked. Train a kid to subtract fractions like a trained monkey and they can do it as long as you keep reminding them, but as soon as they stop using it they will forget because they don't get what a fraction actually represents.
They need a lot more learning time and different methods. The public school system just doesn't have the time for that. It's all about spitting out workers as fast as possible.
I wish the government would get the hell out of education. The paperwork is overwhelming, along with the tomes of rules and guidelines and accountability horseshit.

When it comes to education, it appears that one end of the spectrum would like to see Bible study interspersed between Sean Hannity podcasts, and the other end would like to see sensitivity training interspersed between microaggression awareness meetings.

For our kid's sake, and for our country's sake, I'm so happy schools like my daughter's exist.
.

Good for you! If ignorance is bliss, you should be very happy!

If y'all hadn't hollered at him so much about it, Mac might have listened to what all the teachers here are saying to him. I think Mac's reaction to the "95th percentile in the state" is a perfect example of why education in this country has gotten so screwed up. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the motivational style of teaching that Mac's daughter is using, and the children are obviously comfortable with it and excelling with it. But he is not able to hear that what they are insisting these kids learn for the sake of achieving those high scores is not based in solid pedagogy. It's all about the numbers, man. And non-educators sitting on school boards all over the country are making the same mistake.

It never ends.

Every teacher is using "motivational teaching" unless they absolutely suck, and then they should get out. That should be obvious.

I'd be very interested to follow these kids in the charter school and see how long it lasts. Or see if the charter school can retain teachers.

I have been trying to figure out why they are pushing them into 3rd grade skills like math and writing cursive at age 5. Does that mean that in 1st grade they are working at Grade 4 level? When do they graduate? Age 11?
I have read of a few charter schools that work with local community colleges and some high school students can actually graduate with an associates degree. That's the only reason I can think of to push the kids way beyond grade level.

I would suspect it's for bragging rights. And listen, if charter schools actually produce quality education and great result, MORE POWER TO THEM. I'm not at all opposed. Whatever works for kids. But spewing rote memorization is not it. It's not learning; it's not understanding.

Well, it is learning, up to a point. We have to memorize the scaffolding to organize the information we are gong to receive in science, history, etc. But obviously it can be taken too far.

 

[sealybobo]

I just showed you 30% flunk/drop out.

I'm so glad I got my college degree but it could have been done a better way. They should have a 2 year sales associates rather than make me go 4 years to a business school just to get out and be a salesperson. I didn't need all that.

They need to make better 2 year degrees too and have them be worth something to employers. So rather than make the kid try to get a 4 year degree, which is hard and a lot of work, they could just get a 2 year associates

but right now an associates is worthless pretty much in the business world. That's bullshit.

I can't argue with you too much. It's a racket that's for sure.

Most kids who want to go to college but drop out don't want to go into a trade. They don't know what they want to do. That's why they go to college. Not all but a lot. And that's why a lot drop out or get kicked out.

So that's another thing teachers are doing wrong. Their kids graduate and they don't even know what they want to do. Why does it take humans so long to mature?

Expecting teachers to decide for kids what they want to do with their lives? Is that asking a bit much? THINK about it.
School did not used to be solely for the purpose of getting a job. Now it is. This whole push for EVERYONE to go to college or trade school after high school is silly when you think about why that is. It is because high school doesn't prepare you to make a living wage and doesn't teach the skills necessary to get on in life. But instead of improving the K-12 curriculum and standards, they push two years of a trade school or four years of college that costs $$$$ instead. Makes no sense for most people.

I am intrigued as to your reasoning. What skills do you believe are needed to make a living wage that are not taught in high school?

By "living wage" I am not talking about minimum wage jobs, Admiral. Although employers in our area are crying that the high school grads coming to them can't make change or read directions or have any concept of employability soft skills, like calling in if you can't show up, and not calling in twice a week, every week.
I teach college transitions and the math skills some of these kids have (or haven't) boggle even my mind--no concept of the meaning of a decimal point, how to figure the price of something that is 25% off, how to figure simple interest on a loan. Not even sure how to attack a word problem involving nothing but subtraction.

It is input from community employers and the admissions office at the local college, all screaming, that the kids aren't prepared. And I see it as we fill the potholes for kids who somehow got that diploma for apparently nothing but showing up and breathing.

Let's go back to my comment about not being able to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. I had students who could do all of those things you mentioned, the first time I tested them. My final exams were simply questions selected from previous exams. I gave them study guides to show what was going to be on the test. My results were usually in excess of 60% failed. Those are the people you are trying to hire. They retain nothing for more than the time it takes to get past the test. The have a memory like a capacitor. You can charge a capacitor for months, but as soon as it discharges, there is nothing left!

Failing the final exam is never enough for them to keep from failing. My classes averaged a D on most days, and occasionally a C. You work with what you are given and no effort by the teachers will change it, because all my classes were the same as all of the other teachers teaching the same subject. Most of the time other teachers were trying to get their students to catch up to my students!

They don't remember it because they never understood the underlying reasons why it worked. Train a kid to subtract fractions like a trained monkey and they can do it as long as you keep reminding them, but as soon as they stop using it they will forget because they don't get what a fraction actually represents.
They need a lot more learning time and different methods. The public school system just doesn't have the time for that. It's all about spitting out workers as fast as possible.
I wish the government would get the hell out of education. The paperwork is overwhelming, along with the tomes of rules and guidelines and accountability horseshit.

When it comes to education, it appears that one end of the spectrum would like to see Bible study interspersed between Sean Hannity podcasts, and the other end would like to see sensitivity training interspersed between microaggression awareness meetings.

For our kid's sake, and for our country's sake, I'm so happy schools like my daughter's exist.
.

Good for you! If ignorance is bliss, you should be very happy!

If y'all hadn't hollered at him so much about it, Mac might have listened to what all the teachers here are saying to him. I think Mac's reaction to the "95th percentile in the state" is a perfect example of why education in this country has gotten so screwed up. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the motivational style of teaching that Mac's daughter is using, and the children are obviously comfortable with it and excelling with it. But he is not able to hear that what they are insisting these kids learn for the sake of achieving those high scores is not based in solid pedagogy. It's all about the numbers, man. And non-educators sitting on school boards all over the country are making the same mistake.

It never ends.

Every teacher is using "motivational teaching" unless they absolutely suck, and then they should get out. That should be obvious.

I'd be very interested to follow these kids in the charter school and see how long it lasts. Or see if the charter school can retain teachers.

I have been trying to figure out why they are pushing them into 3rd grade skills like math and writing cursive at age 5. Does that mean that in 1st grade they are working at Grade 4 level? When do they graduate? Age 11?
I have read of a few charter schools that work with local community colleges and some high school students can actually graduate with an associates degree. That's the only reason I can think of to push the kids way beyond grade level.

You know what I wish schools would teach? What would need to be done if we lost all technology and had to start over.

How to survive in the wilderness.

How to make fire

How to make an engine.

Make electricity.

Find oil and metals.

Build a home.

Ride a horse.

Catch a horse.

Make plumbing, ice, guns, bullets.

No one knows all of these things. It’s why community is important.