Nice people can choose to reject god and go to hell

[emilynghiem]

According to the theory of reincarnation and karma, such a person would suffer in a similar way in future lives.

Perhaps he is re-born as his very self, over and over, until he changes the time-line of history -- similar to the movie Groundhog Day.
.

Humorous to a point, but a true atheist wouldn't joke of such a thing. For to entertain the idea/concept that there is "something" beyond this present life is against all things atheist.

Hi Tip. Even nontheists have a real life concept that the legacy we leave behind affects future generation. Look at Einstein, Mozart, Jefferson. Even if you don't believe in spiritual connections between generations, the knowledge passed down through arts and sciences is the secular manifestation of these same gifts.

You may want to check out how different nontheists/atheists express the "collective" level beyond just our present perception and empirical experience.

Numan calls it "spiritual reality" instead of attributing universe/truth/laws to a personified "God"

I had another friend who LIKED the idea of equating God with whatever you see as the "collective" level of truth/humanity etc.

And many nontheists are ok with "intelligent design" or order to the universal laws
whether they personify God or not. Most people have a sense of justice whether this is personified in Jesus or not. Even the laws of karma or Golden Rule of Reciprocity are understood to be universal laws applying to all humanity and things in the world.

so just because people don't call it the same things, doesn't mean the same universal concepts or principles don't exist in "equivalent forms" in whatever sysetm they use to describe or understand the world and our relationships with the laws/universe.

I happen to study these things because I am interested in "interpretating" between the secular systems and the spiritual concepts under scripture, to find out how to communicate back and forth between the symbolism used by believers and the
secular terms understood by gentile using science and civil laws and mainstream concepts.

I believe that for God/jesus to be universal for all humanity, then all these concepts
should be able to be explained using any system on earth, from the Buddhists to the Constitutionalists, not just Christian or religious terms that can be translated if we are going to communicate with people of different tribes and backgrounds. I believe Christ Jesus fulfills ALL paths, so that all languages for the laws are reconciled in that spirit. but this does not mean the languages changes, but our interpretation may expand to be more universal as we reconcile with people who speak and think in different terms than we use.

 

[emilynghiem]

Yes they do if they repent and accept Jesus as their Savior.

No sin is greater or lesser than another.

I think what Gadawg needs to hear is that while the sins are forgiven spiritually,
YES there will be accountability for the crimes on earth as well.

As we move toward a more effective system of Restorative Justice, more criminal illness
can be treated and managed, where I recommend that restitution be enforced; so this compels people and families to get help early, and report criminal illness or acts BEFORE they get worse; so the less severe or less repeat offenses, the less restitution is owed.

so there will be reforms in the criminal justice system toward prevention, correction and restitution by IMPLEMENTING the concepts in Christianity of Restorative Justice. the healing authority of Christ can cure physical mental and criminal illness, caused by spiritual sickness that forgiveness can alleviate or remove, so one day sick people will get help BEFORE committing heinous crimes that can be prevented by earlier intervention.

So yes, there will be justice for all crime victims, but it will come AFTER these crimes are forgiven spiritually first, in order to unit and collaborate on physical and legal solutions to diagnose, treat and detain criminal illness so we don't have any more such injustice.

I agree we will be judged accordingly not only here on earth but also when we meet our Maker. I had the impression that he didn't believe such a person could ever go to Heaven.

I would clarify that when we are judged, we are judged by our own words, systems and principles by which we claimed to follow and/or judged others by.

So the believers who claim to live by the Bible will be judged by that standard;
while the atheists who claimed to be objective about scientific laws and proof
will be judged by that; or the politicians who claimed to enforce Constitutional laws of inclusion and equal representation will be judged by whether they discriminated and left people out, etc.

the problem I see is that people think "they will judge others" by imposing THEIR laws
onto others, instead of self-enforcing the laws that those people themselves committed to follow. By the spirit of Christ, by conscience, people will be held to account by their own laws, in the process of redressing grievances by Matthew 18:15-20 to restore just relations by establishing truth by agreement. All wrongs will be forgiven, corrected and resolved in this process, and it will be mutual, where parties correct themselves equally.

 

[emilynghiem]

I think what Gadawg needs to hear is that while the sins are forgiven spiritually,
YES there will be accountability for the crimes on earth as well.

As we move toward a more effective system of Restorative Justice, more criminal illness
can be treated and managed, where I recommend that restitution be enforced; so this compels people and families to get help early, and report criminal illness or acts BEFORE they get worse; so the less severe or less repeat offenses, the less restitution is owed.

so there will be reforms in the criminal justice system toward prevention, correction and restitution by IMPLEMENTING the concepts in Christianity of Restorative Justice. the healing authority of Christ can cure physical mental and criminal illness, caused by spiritual sickness that forgiveness can alleviate or remove, so one day sick people will get help BEFORE committing heinous crimes that can be prevented by earlier intervention.

So yes, there will be justice for all crime victims, but it will come AFTER these crimes are forgiven spiritually first, in order to unit and collaborate on physical and legal solutions to diagnose, treat and detain criminal illness so we don't have any more such injustice.

I agree we will be judged accordingly not only here on earth but also when we meet our Maker. I had the impression that he didn't believe such a person could ever go to Heaven.

I don't believe God will allow them into heaven.

It is unforgiveness that keeps us from heavenly peace.
I've seen unforgiveness in Christian believers as well as in atheists;
and I've seen divine forgivness and saving grace in both as well.

it is not your denomination or label that saves you,
but your ability to forgive and to ask help to forgive that saves us or dooms us
to repeating the same hellish suffering carried over from the past until we agree
to let go and let this be corrected instead.

 

[emilynghiem]

So a mass murderer that kidnapped 3 year old girls, gouges their eyes out and makes lamp shades out of their skin gets arrested and 4 seconds before the lethal injection gets "saved".
And he goes to heaven like nothing happened.
No fucking way.

According to the theory of reincarnation and karma, such a person would suffer in a similar way in future lives.

In addition, with the understanding that the suffering of any one being
is felt and shared by all humanity, or "collective" responsibility

what I see happening is that IF we do not resolve an issue, then it
can repeat and become EVERYONE's problem or affect INNOCENT people
to FORCE society to change and take responsibility as a whole.

for example, if we allow people to run around free who have an alcoholic addiction
and cannot control themselves, where they will break laws to drive a vehicle regardless
if they are banned from it or not; then we see INNOCENT people dying of drunk driving crashes. If this is seen as some kind of punishment on those people from past life karma, then there is no motivation to change; we think justice is taking care of itself and those victims deserved to die? No, this is not how the conscience responds. Instead we are outraged and aggrieved to see INNOCENT children families, etc killed by a drunk driver.
So we "collectively" agree that we should do more to stop the cause, and when you trace it, you find that spiritually that person needed help to end the addiction before it killed someone. So then the karma motivates us to promote cures and programs, to make sure people get help; and dont wait for someone to die before intervening through the state.

Again if karma only affected guilty people, like murderers only killing drug dealers who 'had it coming' then we would let this killing continue, thinking it is natural karma or justice. Some of the karma is Collective, like war, where innocent people suffer UNDUE collateral damages that are clearly UNJUST so it compels us to End war, crime, killing etc. otherwise we would never address the root cause and would just let it go on and on.

 

[emilynghiem]

The answers to all your questions are in the Bible.

The Bible says, "The truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God" (Romans 1:19-20, New Living Translation).

Yes and no. I would include Colossians 1:16 about all authorities are created by and given to the Lord.

So the natural laws of the Gentiles are equally under Jesus authority as Universal Justice and Truth.
But these are not spelled out in the Bible.

That is why we have Buddhism, Constitutional laws, laws of science, and social psychology to explain the dynamics of human nature and relationships with collective society.

These are the laws given to the Gentiles, that are equally fulfilled in Christ Jesus along with all other expressions of universal laws, but they are not all in the Bible literally.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I think what Gadawg needs to hear is that while the sins are forgiven spiritually,
YES there will be accountability for the crimes on earth as well.

As we move toward a more effective system of Restorative Justice, more criminal illness
can be treated and managed, where I recommend that restitution be enforced; so this compels people and families to get help early, and report criminal illness or acts BEFORE they get worse; so the less severe or less repeat offenses, the less restitution is owed.

so there will be reforms in the criminal justice system toward prevention, correction and restitution by IMPLEMENTING the concepts in Christianity of Restorative Justice. the healing authority of Christ can cure physical mental and criminal illness, caused by spiritual sickness that forgiveness can alleviate or remove, so one day sick people will get help BEFORE committing heinous crimes that can be prevented by earlier intervention.

So yes, there will be justice for all crime victims, but it will come AFTER these crimes are forgiven spiritually first, in order to unit and collaborate on physical and legal solutions to diagnose, treat and detain criminal illness so we don't have any more such injustice.

I agree we will be judged accordingly not only here on earth but also when we meet our Maker. I had the impression that he didn't believe such a person could ever go to Heaven.

I would clarify that when we are judged, we are judged by our own words, systems and principles by which we claimed to follow and/or judged others by.

So the believers who claim to live by the Bible will be judged by that standard;
while the atheists who claimed to be objective about scientific laws and proof
will be judged by that; or the politicians who claimed to enforce Constitutional laws of inclusion and equal representation will be judged by whether they discriminated and left people out, etc.

the problem I see is that people think "they will judge others" by imposing THEIR laws
onto others, instead of self-enforcing the laws that those people themselves committed to follow. By the spirit of Christ, by conscience, people will be held to account by their own laws, in the process of redressing grievances by Matthew 18:15-20 to restore just relations by establishing truth by agreement. All wrongs will be forgiven, corrected and resolved in this process, and it will be mutual, where parties correct themselves equally.

Atheist will not be judged at all because they have no chance of going to Heaven. They have a ticket straight to hell.

 

[numan]

Atheists will not be judged at all because they have no chance of going to Heaven. They have a ticket straight to hell.

What!! You mean we are going to Texas!!

No!! Dear God!! Anything but that !!!

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...-reject-god-and-go-to-hell-3.html#post7254558

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Atheists will not be judged at all because they have no chance of going to Heaven. They have a ticket straight to hell.

What!! You mean we are going to Texas!!

No!! Dear God!! Anything but that !!!

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...-reject-god-and-go-to-hell-3.html#post7254558

Obviously you've never been here.

 

[MaryL]

Choosing to reject "god"? Not believing in something isn't a choice. It's what we humans do, we are skeptical and we question. We obtain material and meaningful things like, the wheel, fire or the computer from observing facts, not adhering to dogmas. Now, I dearly respect religious people and I leave it at that. Sometimes I lose patience , an all too human failure.

 

[tipofthespear]

Atheists will not be judged at all because they have no chance of going to Heaven. They have a ticket straight to hell.

What!! You mean we are going to Texas!!

No!! Dear God!! Anything but that !!!

http://www.usmessageboard.com/relig...-reject-god-and-go-to-hell-3.html#post7254558

Obviously you've never been here.

........yet that will not stop him from belittling Texas, just as his complete lack of knowledge of any and all things Biblical will not stop him from belittling the Word of God. Honestly, WHO CARES? People who hold themselves in such great esteem as this one, usually end up being just that.....................STEAM.................

Now, he will never understand my comment, and only point out the grammatical differences 'n' such.............

 

[tipofthespear]

Choosing to reject "god"? Not believing in something isn't a choice. It's what we humans do, we are skeptical and we question. We obtain material and meaningful things like, the wheel, fire or the computer from observing facts, not adhering to dogmas. Now, I dearly respect religious people and I leave it at that. Sometimes I lose patience , an all too human failure.

I fail to see any logical support for your idea.............What does being skeptical and questioning have to do with "obtaining" material possessions?

NOT believing in something/someone is certainly a CHOICE.......just as BELIEVING in is.......glad you "dearly respect" religious people, dare I ask how you feel about Christians? You do understand, after careful consideration of all the "facts" you have collected and observed, that Christianity and religion are not one and the same? Oops........didya miss that one?

 

[turzovka]

Matthew 25 (the final judgment) begs to differ with your bold claims. I also hate to say it this way, but I think you cheapen the gift of salvation to the extreme.

Of course I disagree with other doctrines you must maintain, such as heaven or hell awaits the soul the moment of death. Maybe…. maybe not. Purgatory awaits uncountable unaware masses, hopefully me too. Too many protestant theologies give themselves far too much credit expecting a direct flight to paradise. (that being my opinion and in the teaching of the Cathoic Church).

Finally, I read too many judgments in your definitive understandings of what our Lord is teaching us through Scripture. It is not one size fits all. Just because someone never knew Jesus does not mean they are not still allowed into heaven through Jesus. I caution you for ever thinking otherwise.

But where si such a concept supported in scripture? AFAIK, the ONE way to heaven is through Jesus and if you do not accept him as your savior you simply are not going to heaven. It is one of the major problems that I have with Christianity as a whole: the gaping hole of what happened to the billions before Jesus, to the billions that live in nations where the possibility of Jesus has been removed from the nation so that there are many that have zero chance to ever even see a bible much less learn about Jesus and finally those that are too young to ever get a chance to accept him. All of these people, far more than those that are even exposed to Jesus, never have a chance to accept him as a savior so they must go to hell? That seems unjust and certainly does not allow for a being that ‘loves’ them. I have not seen scripture that supports the idea that they also have the opportunity to go to heaven.

Of course it is unjust! The One True God would condemn a pagan to everlasting hell because he never knew who Jesus was and therefore never consciously accepted him as his savior? Unspeakable.

I wish I had the time right now, but I do not. Suffice it to say that most protestant dogmas or doctrines on the matter of salvation are horribly flawed (in my strongly held belief). Or there may be truth in them, to be sure, but they are so narrowly defined they become a detriment to the pagan or the soul wanting to know the truth. For one, there MOST CERTAINLY is a purgatory and that is the greatest blessing and mercy God ever shared with the human race. I could produce scores of passages in Scripture that speak to it and other pieces of historical evidence as well. It is where all of us tainted vessels are purified of our selfish or vile ways and / or educated of the truth (as in the ignorant island native or even buddhist) and God's mercy and justice is most present. All souls that go to purgatory are one day allowed into the kingdom of heaven. That, is God's mercy.

So who goes to hell? The Catholic Church has never said and will not say. They do say only God can judge, and his justice is not man's justice. The Church will not even say that Judas or Hitler or Herod are there. But I believe one has to willfully want absolute nothing to do with God and be quite adamant about it (such as in his boasts "any God who would make a child suffer I want nothing to do with" or the like). That is what I glean from the words of the saints. But no one is being dogmatic on any of that.

Yes, true, no man comes to the Father but through Jesus Christ, but what that refers to is Jesus is the final judge. It does not mean because you never knew or spoke of Jesus you cannot come to the Father through Him.


I offer a couple of passages from Scripture that speak to your question and give hope to the ignorant and the pagan:

Acts 10:34-35
Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.


John 9:39-41
"I came into this world," said Jesus, "to judge men, that those who do not see may see, and that those who do see may become blind." These words were heard by those of the Pharisees who were present, and they asked Him, "Are *we* also blind?" "If you were blind," answered Jesus, "you would have no sin; but as a matter of fact you boast that you see. So your sin remains!"

John 15:22-24 If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father


(To those living long before Jesus)

Romans 5:12-13
Brothers and sisters: Through one man sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all men, inasmuch as all sinned --- for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law.

(Vatican II document)

847 Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

 

[Gadawg73]

So a mass murderer that kidnapped 3 year old girls, gouges their eyes out and makes lamp shades out of their skin gets arrested and 4 seconds before the lethal injection gets "saved".
And he goes to heaven like nothing happened.
No fucking way.

Yes they do if they repent and accept Jesus as their Savior.

No sin is greater or lesser than another.

I hear that all the time from many that go through this life stepping on others all the time. They believe they can do that and then before they die accept Jesus and all is forgiven.
I had a case a few years ago here Lonestar where a man from out of town moved into this town and worked as an auto mechanic at a used car lot for a few years. He saved $125,000 dollars and bought a lot at an intersection here in town. The real estate agent I went to church with. He is an older man and a big wig in the church. On every real estate sale there is a full disclosure form where the agent and seller have to check off if there are any known defects to the property such as hazards, buried buildings, trash, debris buried and such. Note I state "known". Well, the man buys the lot and starts excavating for his auto repair shop. The grader digs down and hits concrete and building materials, an old truck, a car and numerous other materials. It took 120 loads of a dump truck and 20 feet deep to rid this 1 acre lot suitable to build on. So he hires an attorney and the attorney hires me. I find the grader and he admits that he knew that lot had debris on it as a friend of his was the one that buried it with his bulldozer in the late 80s. And the DOT had left debris there and the owners had buried it. Cost of excavation was over 100K with the removal. And we located many folks that the owners were the ones that hired the frader to bury it. So I go to the realtor who I know from church and confront him over it. He admits he knew about all of the debris but told me "that is what I do 6 days a week and I go to church on Sunday. That is business" We won at trial with a 200K verdict. My point is I do not believe these folks just automatically get in with their last second or half baked "acceptance" of Jesus. Love thy neighbor needs to be practiced here. I believe the last minute acceptance deal was for gaining anyone and everyone into the church. But if they do get in they will get their due there as there are going to be some very mad people!

 

[turzovka]

So a mass murderer that kidnapped 3 year old girls, gouges their eyes out and makes lamp shades out of their skin gets arrested and 4 seconds before the lethal injection gets "saved".
And he goes to heaven like nothing happened.
No fucking way.

Yes they do if they repent and accept Jesus as their Savior.

No sin is greater or lesser than another.

I hear that all the time from many that go through this life stepping on others all the time. They believe they can do that and then before they die accept Jesus and all is forgiven.
I had a case a few years ago here Lonestar where a man from out of town moved into this town and worked as an auto mechanic at a used car lot for a few years. He saved $125,000 dollars and bought a lot at an intersection here in town. The real estate agent I went to church with. He is an older man and a big wig in the church. On every real estate sale there is a full disclosure form where the agent and seller have to check off if there are any known defects to the property such as hazards, buried buildings, trash, debris buried and such. Note I state "known". Well, the man buys the lot and starts excavating for his auto repair shop. The grader digs down and hits concrete and building materials, an old truck, a car and numerous other materials. It took 120 loads of a dump truck and 20 feet deep to rid this 1 acre lot suitable to build on. So he hires an attorney and the attorney hires me. I find the grader and he admits that he knew that lot had debris on it as a friend of his was the one that buried it with his bulldozer in the late 80s. And the DOT had left debris there and the owners had buried it. Cost of excavation was over 100K with the removal. And we located many folks that the owners were the ones that hired the frader to bury it. So I go to the realtor who I know from church and confront him over it. He admits he knew about all of the debris but told me "that is what I do 6 days a week and I go to church on Sunday. That is business" We won at trial with a 200K verdict. My point is I do not believe these folks just automatically get in with their last second or half baked "acceptance" of Jesus. Love thy neighbor needs to be practiced here. I believe the last minute acceptance deal was for gaining anyone and everyone into the church. But if they do get in they will get their due there as there are going to be some very mad people!

They don’t! Even the murderer who repents one minute before his execution. I am not making any final judgments, but it is extremely unlikely he is going straight to heaven.

The problem with the internet and other discussions of a believer vs an unbeliever is that the unbeliever all too often thinks there is a general consensus amongst most Christians that when you die you immediately end up in heaven or in hell. For most, not so!

The other problem is this protestant teaching that “faith alone” is all that is needed and good works are either useless or just a sign that you have been saved. Again, baloney.

Catholic teaching is in direct opposition to the teachings of most protestant faiths on these matters of salvation. And it is the protestant ones that really turn off unbelievers.

Purgatory is real, and a place where God’s justice and mercy are thankfully administered. It answers many questions. It is also very Biblical.

The Bible is full of apparent contradictions, but it is not a real problem to a devout and thinking Christian. The problem is, it takes some time to convince another of what is meant and what is not meant. But what may be good for the goose is not always the same as what is good for the duck. Protestants need to understand this.

 

[BreezeWood]

well, just do not sin ...

no sin is forgiven that is not atoned for, that is hard to do when someone is killed - just hope who was killed deserved it otherwise try and live as long as possible.

 

[Dajjal]

According to the spirit world, when we die we go to a realm of experience that corresponds with our inner state of development. There are many planes and the lowest ones are dark and unpleasant, the higher realms would appear to a Christian to be the eternal heaven they were promised, but in reality they are only resting places, where we gather ourselves for our next incarnation. That is until we have evolved to spiritual enlightenment, or perfection. After which we do not need to reincarnate, then we progress on as immortals, to even higher realms that nobody returns from. We do not know what happens there, but it may be that the individual soul merges back into the God head.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

So a mass murderer that kidnapped 3 year old girls, gouges their eyes out and makes lamp shades out of their skin gets arrested and 4 seconds before the lethal injection gets "saved".
And he goes to heaven like nothing happened.
No fucking way.

Yes they do if they repent and accept Jesus as their Savior.

No sin is greater or lesser than another.

I hear that all the time from many that go through this life stepping on others all the time. They believe they can do that and then before they die accept Jesus and all is forgiven.
I had a case a few years ago here Lonestar where a man from out of town moved into this town and worked as an auto mechanic at a used car lot for a few years. He saved $125,000 dollars and bought a lot at an intersection here in town. The real estate agent I went to church with. He is an older man and a big wig in the church. On every real estate sale there is a full disclosure form where the agent and seller have to check off if there are any known defects to the property such as hazards, buried buildings, trash, debris buried and such. Note I state "known". Well, the man buys the lot and starts excavating for his auto repair shop. The grader digs down and hits concrete and building materials, an old truck, a car and numerous other materials. It took 120 loads of a dump truck and 20 feet deep to rid this 1 acre lot suitable to build on. So he hires an attorney and the attorney hires me. I find the grader and he admits that he knew that lot had debris on it as a friend of his was the one that buried it with his bulldozer in the late 80s. And the DOT had left debris there and the owners had buried it. Cost of excavation was over 100K with the removal. And we located many folks that the owners were the ones that hired the frader to bury it. So I go to the realtor who I know from church and confront him over it. He admits he knew about all of the debris but told me "that is what I do 6 days a week and I go to church on Sunday. That is business" We won at trial with a 200K verdict. My point is I do not believe these folks just automatically get in with their last second or half baked "acceptance" of Jesus. Love thy neighbor needs to be practiced here. I believe the last minute acceptance deal was for gaining anyone and everyone into the church. But if they do get in they will get their due there as there are going to be some very mad people!

Then you are not a Christian.

As Jesus was on the cross he was in between two thieves being crucified for their crimes (Luke 23: 32-43) one of them said to Jesus, "Remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom", and Jesus said to him: "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise".

All it took was for that thief to believe in Jesus to join Him in Heaven.

As it states in Romans 3:23, well all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and it doesn't matter how long it takes you to ask for forgiveness and repent or how many times you do so, you will always be forgiven.

MATTHEW 18 : 21 Then Peter came up and said to him: “Lord, how many times is my brother to sin against me and am I to forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him: “I say to you, not, Up to seven times, but, Up to seventy-seven times. (INDICATING UNLIMITED FORGIVENESS)

Jesus reminds us on more than one occasion that only to the extent we forgive others will we ourselves be forgiven (Matthew 6:12-15; 18:35; Luke 6:37).

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Yes they do if they repent and accept Jesus as their Savior.

No sin is greater or lesser than another.

I hear that all the time from many that go through this life stepping on others all the time. They believe they can do that and then before they die accept Jesus and all is forgiven.
I had a case a few years ago here Lonestar where a man from out of town moved into this town and worked as an auto mechanic at a used car lot for a few years. He saved $125,000 dollars and bought a lot at an intersection here in town. The real estate agent I went to church with. He is an older man and a big wig in the church. On every real estate sale there is a full disclosure form where the agent and seller have to check off if there are any known defects to the property such as hazards, buried buildings, trash, debris buried and such. Note I state "known". Well, the man buys the lot and starts excavating for his auto repair shop. The grader digs down and hits concrete and building materials, an old truck, a car and numerous other materials. It took 120 loads of a dump truck and 20 feet deep to rid this 1 acre lot suitable to build on. So he hires an attorney and the attorney hires me. I find the grader and he admits that he knew that lot had debris on it as a friend of his was the one that buried it with his bulldozer in the late 80s. And the DOT had left debris there and the owners had buried it. Cost of excavation was over 100K with the removal. And we located many folks that the owners were the ones that hired the frader to bury it. So I go to the realtor who I know from church and confront him over it. He admits he knew about all of the debris but told me "that is what I do 6 days a week and I go to church on Sunday. That is business" We won at trial with a 200K verdict. My point is I do not believe these folks just automatically get in with their last second or half baked "acceptance" of Jesus. Love thy neighbor needs to be practiced here. I believe the last minute acceptance deal was for gaining anyone and everyone into the church. But if they do get in they will get their due there as there are going to be some very mad people!

They don’t! Even the murderer who repents one minute before his execution. I am not making any final judgments, but it is extremely unlikely he is going straight to heaven.

The problem with the internet and other discussions of a believer vs an unbeliever is that the unbeliever all too often thinks there is a general consensus amongst most Christians that when you die you immediately end up in heaven or in hell. For most, not so!

The other problem is this protestant teaching that “faith alone” is all that is needed and good works are either useless or just a sign that you have been saved. Again, baloney.

Catholic teaching is in direct opposition to the teachings of most protestant faiths on these matters of salvation. And it is the protestant ones that really turn off unbelievers.

Purgatory is real, and a place where God’s justice and mercy are thankfully administered. It answers many questions. It is also very Biblical.

The Bible is full of apparent contradictions, but it is not a real problem to a devout and thinking Christian. The problem is, it takes some time to convince another of what is meant and what is not meant. But what may be good for the goose is not always the same as what is good for the duck. Protestants need to understand this.

Where is "purgatory" mentioned in the Bible?

 

[Gadawg73]

Yes they do if they repent and accept Jesus as their Savior.

No sin is greater or lesser than another.

I hear that all the time from many that go through this life stepping on others all the time. They believe they can do that and then before they die accept Jesus and all is forgiven.
I had a case a few years ago here Lonestar where a man from out of town moved into this town and worked as an auto mechanic at a used car lot for a few years. He saved $125,000 dollars and bought a lot at an intersection here in town. The real estate agent I went to church with. He is an older man and a big wig in the church. On every real estate sale there is a full disclosure form where the agent and seller have to check off if there are any known defects to the property such as hazards, buried buildings, trash, debris buried and such. Note I state "known". Well, the man buys the lot and starts excavating for his auto repair shop. The grader digs down and hits concrete and building materials, an old truck, a car and numerous other materials. It took 120 loads of a dump truck and 20 feet deep to rid this 1 acre lot suitable to build on. So he hires an attorney and the attorney hires me. I find the grader and he admits that he knew that lot had debris on it as a friend of his was the one that buried it with his bulldozer in the late 80s. And the DOT had left debris there and the owners had buried it. Cost of excavation was over 100K with the removal. And we located many folks that the owners were the ones that hired the frader to bury it. So I go to the realtor who I know from church and confront him over it. He admits he knew about all of the debris but told me "that is what I do 6 days a week and I go to church on Sunday. That is business" We won at trial with a 200K verdict. My point is I do not believe these folks just automatically get in with their last second or half baked "acceptance" of Jesus. Love thy neighbor needs to be practiced here. I believe the last minute acceptance deal was for gaining anyone and everyone into the church. But if they do get in they will get their due there as there are going to be some very mad people!

Then you are not a Christian.

As Jesus was on the cross he was in between two thieves being crucified for their crimes (Luke 23: 32-43) one of them said to Jesus, "Remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom", and Jesus said to him: "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise".

All it took was for that thief to believe in Jesus to join Him in Heaven.

As it states in Romans 3:23, well all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and it doesn't matter how long it takes you to ask for forgiveness and repent or how many times you do so, you will always be forgiven.

MATTHEW 18 : 21 Then Peter came up and said to him: “Lord, how many times is my brother to sin against me and am I to forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him: “I say to you, not, Up to seven times, but, Up to seventy-seven times. (INDICATING UNLIMITED FORGIVENESS)

Jesus reminds us on more than one occasion that only to the extent we forgive others will we ourselves be forgiven (Matthew 6:12-15; 18:35; Luke 6:37).

Forgiving is not the subject here. One of the greatest things about the Bible is the lessons on forgiveness. Forgiveness is a hard thing to do but I practice it and it is such a great lesson from a book of many great lessons in life. Forgiving allows YOU to get rid of that and throw that burden away. Such a great lesson!
But that is not what we are speaking of here. We are talking about being saved and accepting Jesus.
You can claim I am not a Christian and fine with me but the great book the Bible also teaches to not judge. That is the problem with Christians today. "I am right and you are wrong." I hear from many of my friends "Catholics are not Christians".Such an absurd argument as Catholics were THE FIRST Christians and I am not Catholic.
Those stories in the Bible were told to bring everyone to Christ as many Romans had done dastardly deeds and believed that no way, no how could they ever get into heaven.
But I respect your opinion as I do all others and I do not believe you are not a Christian for having a different opinion.
As there are how many Christian denominations with various opinions out there?
And we better not start calling each other "not Christian" if others have different views.
That diversity of Christianity has made this nation strong and separates us from most all other religions, specifically Muslim where Sunni and Shia kill each other over doctrine.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I hear that all the time from many that go through this life stepping on others all the time. They believe they can do that and then before they die accept Jesus and all is forgiven.
I had a case a few years ago here Lonestar where a man from out of town moved into this town and worked as an auto mechanic at a used car lot for a few years. He saved $125,000 dollars and bought a lot at an intersection here in town. The real estate agent I went to church with. He is an older man and a big wig in the church. On every real estate sale there is a full disclosure form where the agent and seller have to check off if there are any known defects to the property such as hazards, buried buildings, trash, debris buried and such. Note I state "known". Well, the man buys the lot and starts excavating for his auto repair shop. The grader digs down and hits concrete and building materials, an old truck, a car and numerous other materials. It took 120 loads of a dump truck and 20 feet deep to rid this 1 acre lot suitable to build on. So he hires an attorney and the attorney hires me. I find the grader and he admits that he knew that lot had debris on it as a friend of his was the one that buried it with his bulldozer in the late 80s. And the DOT had left debris there and the owners had buried it. Cost of excavation was over 100K with the removal. And we located many folks that the owners were the ones that hired the frader to bury it. So I go to the realtor who I know from church and confront him over it. He admits he knew about all of the debris but told me "that is what I do 6 days a week and I go to church on Sunday. That is business" We won at trial with a 200K verdict. My point is I do not believe these folks just automatically get in with their last second or half baked "acceptance" of Jesus. Love thy neighbor needs to be practiced here. I believe the last minute acceptance deal was for gaining anyone and everyone into the church. But if they do get in they will get their due there as there are going to be some very mad people!

Then you are not a Christian.

As Jesus was on the cross he was in between two thieves being crucified for their crimes (Luke 23: 32-43) one of them said to Jesus, "Remember me when thou comest in thy kingdom", and Jesus said to him: "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise".

All it took was for that thief to believe in Jesus to join Him in Heaven.

As it states in Romans 3:23, well all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and it doesn't matter how long it takes you to ask for forgiveness and repent or how many times you do so, you will always be forgiven.

MATTHEW 18 : 21 Then Peter came up and said to him: “Lord, how many times is my brother to sin against me and am I to forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him: “I say to you, not, Up to seven times, but, Up to seventy-seven times. (INDICATING UNLIMITED FORGIVENESS)

Jesus reminds us on more than one occasion that only to the extent we forgive others will we ourselves be forgiven (Matthew 6:12-15; 18:35; Luke 6:37).

Forgiving is not the subject here. One of the greatest things about the Bible is the lessons on forgiveness. Forgiveness is a hard thing to do but I practice it and it is such a great lesson from a book of many great lessons in life. Forgiving allows YOU to get rid of that and throw that burden away. Such a great lesson!
But that is not what we are speaking of here. We are talking about being saved and accepting Jesus.
You can claim I am not a Christian and fine with me but the great book the Bible also teaches to not judge. That is the problem with Christians today. "I am right and you are wrong." I hear from many of my friends "Catholics are not Christians".Such an absurd argument as Catholics were THE FIRST Christians and I am not Catholic.
Those stories in the Bible were told to bring everyone to Christ as many Romans had done dastardly deeds and believed that no way, no how could they ever get into heaven.
But I respect your opinion as I do all others and I do not believe you are not a Christian for having a different opinion.
As there are how many Christian denominations with various opinions out there?
And we better not start calling each other "not Christian" if others have different views.
That diversity of Christianity has made this nation strong and separates us from most all other religions, specifically Muslim where Sunni and Shia kill each other over doctrine.

Acts 13:38-39

For man to appreciate forgiveness he must understand what life and eternity would be without it.

◦Without forgiveness there would be no entry into heaven.
◦Without forgiveness every funeral service would be a prelude to hell.
◦Without forgiveness there would be no knowledge of love.
◦Without forgiveness there would be no hope for any person.
◦Without forgiveness all would be lost.
◦Without forgiveness there would be no mercy.
◦Without forgiveness there would be innumerable suicides.
◦Without forgiveness there would be unremovable guilt.

FORGIVENESS

I am not judging you. I am telling you that you are not a Christian if you don't believe that all can be forgiven for their sins. And if they accept Jesus as their Savior they will be able to join Him in Heaven.

Catholics believe in purgatory. Show me where in the Bible does it reference purgatory.

You claim Catholics were the first Christians. Please link to that nonsense.

You can certainly believe what you wish but to be a Christian you must believe what Christ has taught us.