Nice people can choose to reject god and go to hell

[Lonestar_logic]

So only Catholics believe Matt 16? Fact is the Bible does not say anything about Catholics.

You fail!

Bible says nothing about Methodists either and I never said only Catholics believe Matthew 16.

Point your finger all you want Lonestar but it does not make you right.
I respect what you believe.
If you do not see the harm of your ways when you go around telling others that THEIR Christian beliefs are wrong you are blind.

With regards to the last part of your statement, I agree that believers should not criticize the stance of other believers...........rather than argue their differences in theology, believers should celebrate their common beliefs.......and this is just as true for the Catholic Church as it is for LoneStar, or the various Protestant Churches.......for when the Catholic Church proclaims that it is the FIRST CHURCH, and it was established by Jesus Christ, that is "telling all others that their beliefs are wrong........."

It's that "goose...........gander" thing.

And why should I not criticize what others believe when what they believe isn't supported by the very book they claim to worship?

Jesus himself criticized others. He even said in Matthew 23:9 "And don’t address anyone here on earth as ‘Father,’ for only God in heaven is your spiritual Father." Yet Catholics violate this daily.

Jesus’ relentless and often times harsh (yet fair and truthful) critique of the Pharisees is most concisely understood by reading Luke 11:37-54.

37 While Jesus was speaking, a Pharisee asked him to dine with him, so he went in and reclined at table. 38 The Pharisee was astonished to see that he did not first wash before dinner. 39 And the Lord said to him, “ Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40 You fools! Did not he who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But give as alms those things that are within, and behold, everything is clean for you.

42 “ But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 43 Woe to you Pharisees! For you love the best seat in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. 44 Woe to you! For you are like unmarked graves, and people walk over them without knowing it.”

45 One of the lawyers answered him, “Teacher, in saying these things you insult us also.” 46 And he said, “Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. 47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets whom your fathers killed. 48 So you are witnesses and you consent to the deeds of your fathers, for they killed them, and you build their tombs. 49 Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘ I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,’ 50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation. 52 Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering.”

53 As he went away from there, the scribes and the Pharisees began to press him hard and to provoke him to speak about many things, 54 lying in wait for him, to catch him in something he might say.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

It's not what I think, it's what the Bible says.

I haven't attempted to fully define what a Christian is, I simply showed one of the major tenets of Christianity which is "forgiveness".

Catholics in my opinion do not fit the Christian mold for the simple fact they pray to Mary as if she's equal to God and they give the Pope way to much power as if he's God's right hand man.

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, (1 Timothy 2:5)

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)

Even the Roman Catholic understanding of "saints" doesn't compare very well with the Bible. In Catholic ideology the saints are in Heaven, in the Bible the saint are on earth. In Catholic ideology a person doesn't become a saint unless he/she is beatified or canonized by the Pope or prominent bishop. In the Bible, everyone who has received Jesus Christ by faith is a saint. In Catholic practice saints are revered, prayed to, and in some instances worshipped. In the Bible, saints are called to revere, worship and pray to God alone.

It appears to me when you say "It's not what I think, it's what the Bible says," what you really mean is it's what parts of the Bible say, only. There are serious contradictions to your protestant views of salvation, of faith, and of the Church. Very serious, and too many to mention in detail.

Who has the power to bind sins or loose them? Anybody who calls themselves a Christian? What if the two disagree?

When Jesus says "the gates of hell shall not prevail against thee (the church)" to who or what is he referring to? Everyone who thinks they are "the church?" That's nonsense.

The "Church" has different meanings in Scripture. It exhausts me to hear protestants constantly declare it only refers to the "body of believers." Again, nonsense. The Church is a divinely ordained authority and the twelve apostles are an ordained hierarchy. As is their successors. Why would it have been so important for them to choose a successor to Judas if there were no special authority given unto the twelve?

Explain who the Church is in Matthew 18? It surely is made distinct from simply a group of believers. 15 “If your brother sins[k], go and [l]show him his fault [m]in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every [n]fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as [o]a Gentile and [p]a tax collector

Where does Catholic teaching say we worship Mary or the saints? I know that is what the protestant voice wishes we would do so it would make your case stronger, but we do not. We venerate her, we pray to her. We pray to the saints and the fruits have been manifested hear on earth a million times over. It's ok to ask your friend to pray for you, yes we agree. But to ask the Mother of God to pray for us, you seriously think this causes God to be angry? You think honoring the mother of Jesus causes Jesus heartbreak?

I cannot go on, but I just cannot endure protestant musings. They dance around John 6 about Jesus flesh and blood in the Eucharist --- they dance around the Church being the authority to forgive sins or hold them bound --- and then they act as though they are so beholden to every word of Scripture. Then they also pretend the Bible just came down from heaven and no one in the early Church had anything to do with it. Note: the Church was here, and ordained by Christ, long before there was a Bible.

You might want to look at my top post from yesterday about purgatory not being in the Bible. That is only a sample of passages in Scripture that must refer to a purification after death. Protestants can spin those verses all they want, but it only gives another impression of desperation, IMO.

Parts of the Bible are still the Bible so I am correct. So you're saying the Bible is a "protestant" viewpoint?

As you say there are many definitions of "church" and the definition in Matthew 18, Jesus used the Greek word ekklesia (a called out assembly) that in English it generally translates to church even though church comes from a different Greek word kuriokos that means " house of the Lord".

You pray to Mary but claim not to worship her. That's why there aren't any statues of her anywhere huh? Or any of the saints that are prayed to.

The Bible predates the birth of Christ unless you just want to forget about the Old Testament. So you incorrect to say the Bible was ordained by Christ.

And why do you insist that I'm a protestant of which I'm not. I don't subscribe to any denomination.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Matthew 25 (the final judgment) begs to differ with your bold claims. I also hate to say it this way, but I think you cheapen the gift of salvation to the extreme.

Of course I disagree with other doctrines you must maintain, such as heaven or hell awaits the soul the moment of death. Maybe…. maybe not. Purgatory awaits uncountable unaware masses, hopefully me too. Too many protestant theologies give themselves far too much credit expecting a direct flight to paradise. (that being my opinion and in the teaching of the Cathoic Church).

Finally, I read too many judgments in your definitive understandings of what our Lord is teaching us through Scripture. It is not one size fits all. Just because someone never knew Jesus does not mean they are not still allowed into heaven through Jesus. I caution you for ever thinking otherwise.

But where si such a concept supported in scripture? AFAIK, the ONE way to heaven is through Jesus and if you do not accept him as your savior you simply are not going to heaven. It is one of the major problems that I have with Christianity as a whole: the gaping hole of what happened to the billions before Jesus, to the billions that live in nations where the possibility of Jesus has been removed from the nation so that there are many that have zero chance to ever even see a bible much less learn about Jesus and finally those that are too young to ever get a chance to accept him. All of these people, far more than those that are even exposed to Jesus, never have a chance to accept him as a savior so they must go to hell? That seems unjust and certainly does not allow for a being that ‘loves’ them. I have not seen scripture that supports the idea that they also have the opportunity to go to heaven.

Of course it is unjust! The One True God would condemn a pagan to everlasting hell because he never knew who Jesus was and therefore never consciously accepted him as his savior? Unspeakable.

I wish I had the time right now, but I do not. Suffice it to say that most protestant dogmas or doctrines on the matter of salvation are horribly flawed (in my strongly held belief). Or there may be truth in them, to be sure, but they are so narrowly defined they become a detriment to the pagan or the soul wanting to know the truth. For one, there MOST CERTAINLY is a purgatory and that is the greatest blessing and mercy God ever shared with the human race. I could produce scores of passages in Scripture that speak to it and other pieces of historical evidence as well. It is where all of us tainted vessels are purified of our selfish or vile ways and / or educated of the truth (as in the ignorant island native or even buddhist) and God's mercy and justice is most present. All souls that go to purgatory are one day allowed into the kingdom of heaven. That, is God's mercy.

So who goes to hell? The Catholic Church has never said and will not say. They do say only God can judge, and his justice is not man's justice. The Church will not even say that Judas or Hitler or Herod are there. But I believe one has to willfully want absolute nothing to do with God and be quite adamant about it (such as in his boasts "any God who would make a child suffer I want nothing to do with" or the like). That is what I glean from the words of the saints. But no one is being dogmatic on any of that.

Yes, true, no man comes to the Father but through Jesus Christ, but what that refers to is Jesus is the final judge. It does not mean because you never knew or spoke of Jesus you cannot come to the Father through Him.


I offer a couple of passages from Scripture that speak to your question and give hope to the ignorant and the pagan:

Acts 10:34-35
Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.


John 9:39-41
"I came into this world," said Jesus, "to judge men, that those who do not see may see, and that those who do see may become blind." These words were heard by those of the Pharisees who were present, and they asked Him, "Are *we* also blind?" "If you were blind," answered Jesus, "you would have no sin; but as a matter of fact you boast that you see. So your sin remains!"

John 15:22-24 If I had not come to them and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; now, however, their sin cannot be excused. To hate me is to hate my Father. Had I not performed such works among them as no one has ever done before, they would not be guilty of sin; but as it is, they have seen, and they go on hating me and my Father


(To those living long before Jesus)

Romans 5:12-13
Brothers and sisters: Through one man sin entered the world, and through sin, death, and thus death came to all men, inasmuch as all sinned --- for up to the time of the law, sin was in the world, though sin is not accounted when there is no law.

(Vatican II document)

847 Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

there MOST CERTAINLY is a purgatory and that is the greatest blessing and mercy God ever shared with the human race. I could produce scores of passages in Scripture that speak to it and other pieces of historical evidence as well.

I'd like to see the scriptures and the historical evidence.

 

[Wry Catcher]

The Bible says:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

These are only two verses among many more that make it very clear about what we all must do to be saved. It isn’t rocket science! A child can understand this! Jesus wrote it this simply, so we could all understand!

Then why do they say?

They were so good. They gave so much. She raised us well. He worked hard to support us. He was a good husband. She was a great wife. They loved everybody. They were so well liked. They always paid their bills. They belonged to the church. They were baptized. They walked the aisle. They headed up all these organizations. They donated to various organizations.

This list could go on and on and on infinitum, but only one thing is important at this point. Did they put their trust in Jesus Christ to save them? That’s it!

It amazes me that people will rest the eternal destiny of their soul upon what everybody says, except the One who gives them the correct information. That correct information is called the Truth.

The Bible says:

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6).

There you have it! Jesus will tell you the Truth. He even goes on to say that if you want to go to Heaven after you die, He is the only way to get there. We must go through Him by faith or we don’t go at all.

It certainly isn’t up to me, or you, to even attempt to determine if so-and-so is saved when we notice their actions. Christians can be “naughty” too, and the heavenly Father does discipline His children─unlike most earthly parents of today. Nevertheless, I have seen folks live for the devil and think that they’re okay. They think can live for the devil down here, and live for Jesus in heaven, I guess. Where did that idea come from? I don’t know where it came from, but it is widely practiced.

Okay, so I do know where it comes from. Notice this passage:

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8).

Satan, the devil, is a roaring lion, and I can assure you he isn’t going hungry. Every day people are dying, good people, and going to hell, because they are being swept up in his lies. Satan says, “Live any way you want, there is no hell, your good deeds will out-weigh your bad deeds, there are many ways to God.” Blah, blah, blah… It is all a lie. Only Jesus will tell you the Truth. Listen to Him.

Jesus isn’t out to devour us. Satan is. Jesus is out to save as many as will come to Him. Satan is out to prevent it. One final thought: Are any of us really good? Notice what God has to say about that:

“As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one” (Romans 3:10-12).

“And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God” (Mark 10:18).

We may think our loved one is now in heaven with God because they were “good” but that isn’t what God says. If they are now in heaven with God, it is because they believed in His Son Jesus and Jesus saved their soul.

What about Mark 10:18 above? I suppose someone is thinking, “Jesus wasn’t good either. He said so.”

That is not what Jesus said. He said:

“Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God.”

Is He not God? Notice what He says in the book of John.

“My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one” (John 10:29-30
GP

Man is born free, but everywhere religions reign he is put in chains. Hence the genius of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. To wit, let everyman choose the chains s/he will wear, a just government will not provide them.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

The Bible says:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

These are only two verses among many more that make it very clear about what we all must do to be saved. It isn’t rocket science! A child can understand this! Jesus wrote it this simply, so we could all understand!

Then why do they say?

They were so good. They gave so much. She raised us well. He worked hard to support us. He was a good husband. She was a great wife. They loved everybody. They were so well liked. They always paid their bills. They belonged to the church. They were baptized. They walked the aisle. They headed up all these organizations. They donated to various organizations.

This list could go on and on and on infinitum, but only one thing is important at this point. Did they put their trust in Jesus Christ to save them? That’s it!

It amazes me that people will rest the eternal destiny of their soul upon what everybody says, except the One who gives them the correct information. That correct information is called the Truth.

The Bible says:

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6).

There you have it! Jesus will tell you the Truth. He even goes on to say that if you want to go to Heaven after you die, He is the only way to get there. We must go through Him by faith or we don’t go at all.

It certainly isn’t up to me, or you, to even attempt to determine if so-and-so is saved when we notice their actions. Christians can be “naughty” too, and the heavenly Father does discipline His children─unlike most earthly parents of today. Nevertheless, I have seen folks live for the devil and think that they’re okay. They think can live for the devil down here, and live for Jesus in heaven, I guess. Where did that idea come from? I don’t know where it came from, but it is widely practiced.

Okay, so I do know where it comes from. Notice this passage:

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8).

Satan, the devil, is a roaring lion, and I can assure you he isn’t going hungry. Every day people are dying, good people, and going to hell, because they are being swept up in his lies. Satan says, “Live any way you want, there is no hell, your good deeds will out-weigh your bad deeds, there are many ways to God.” Blah, blah, blah… It is all a lie. Only Jesus will tell you the Truth. Listen to Him.

Jesus isn’t out to devour us. Satan is. Jesus is out to save as many as will come to Him. Satan is out to prevent it. One final thought: Are any of us really good? Notice what God has to say about that:

“As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one” (Romans 3:10-12).

“And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God” (Mark 10:18).

We may think our loved one is now in heaven with God because they were “good” but that isn’t what God says. If they are now in heaven with God, it is because they believed in His Son Jesus and Jesus saved their soul.

What about Mark 10:18 above? I suppose someone is thinking, “Jesus wasn’t good either. He said so.”

That is not what Jesus said. He said:

“Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God.”

Is He not God? Notice what He says in the book of John.

“My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one” (John 10:29-30
GP

Man is born free, but everywhere religions reign he is put in chains. Hence the genius of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. To wit, let everyman choose the chains s/he will wear, a just government will not provide them.

I can understand why you think religion is a chain but it's quite the opposite in my opinion.

Jesus said "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
(John 8:32)

 

[turzovka]

It's not what I think, it's what the Bible says.

I haven't attempted to fully define what a Christian is, I simply showed one of the major tenets of Christianity which is "forgiveness".

Catholics in my opinion do not fit the Christian mold for the simple fact they pray to Mary as if she's equal to God and they give the Pope way to much power as if he's God's right hand man.

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, (1 Timothy 2:5)

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6)

Even the Roman Catholic understanding of "saints" doesn't compare very well with the Bible. In Catholic ideology the saints are in Heaven, in the Bible the saint are on earth. In Catholic ideology a person doesn't become a saint unless he/she is beatified or canonized by the Pope or prominent bishop. In the Bible, everyone who has received Jesus Christ by faith is a saint. In Catholic practice saints are revered, prayed to, and in some instances worshipped. In the Bible, saints are called to revere, worship and pray to God alone.

It appears to me when you say "It's not what I think, it's what the Bible says," what you really mean is it's what parts of the Bible say, only. There are serious contradictions to your protestant views of salvation, of faith, and of the Church. Very serious, and too many to mention in detail.

Who has the power to bind sins or loose them? Anybody who calls themselves a Christian? What if the two disagree?

When Jesus says "the gates of hell shall not prevail against thee (the church)" to who or what is he referring to? Everyone who thinks they are "the church?" That's nonsense.

The "Church" has different meanings in Scripture. It exhausts me to hear protestants constantly declare it only refers to the "body of believers." Again, nonsense. The Church is a divinely ordained authority and the twelve apostles are an ordained hierarchy. As is their successors. Why would it have been so important for them to choose a successor to Judas if there were no special authority given unto the twelve?

Explain who the Church is in Matthew 18? It surely is made distinct from simply a group of believers. 15 “If your brother sins[k], go and [l]show him his fault [m]in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every [n]fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as [o]a Gentile and [p]a tax collector

Where does Catholic teaching say we worship Mary or the saints? I know that is what the protestant voice wishes we would do so it would make your case stronger, but we do not. We venerate her, we pray to her. We pray to the saints and the fruits have been manifested hear on earth a million times over. It's ok to ask your friend to pray for you, yes we agree. But to ask the Mother of God to pray for us, you seriously think this causes God to be angry? You think honoring the mother of Jesus causes Jesus heartbreak?

I cannot go on, but I just cannot endure protestant musings. They dance around John 6 about Jesus flesh and blood in the Eucharist --- they dance around the Church being the authority to forgive sins or hold them bound --- and then they act as though they are so beholden to every word of Scripture. Then they also pretend the Bible just came down from heaven and no one in the early Church had anything to do with it. Note: the Church was here, and ordained by Christ, long before there was a Bible.

You might want to look at my top post from yesterday about purgatory not being in the Bible. That is only a sample of passages in Scripture that must refer to a purification after death. Protestants can spin those verses all they want, but it only gives another impression of desperation, IMO.

Parts of the Bible are still the Bible so I am correct. So you're saying the Bible is a "protestant" viewpoint?

As you say there are many definitions of "church" and the definition in Matthew 18, Jesus used the Greek word ekklesia (a called out assembly) that in English it generally translates to church even though church comes from a different Greek word kuriokos that means " house of the Lord".

You pray to Mary but claim not to worship her. That's why there aren't any statues of her anywhere huh? Or any of the saints that are prayed to.

The Bible predates the birth of Christ unless you just want to forget about the Old Testament. So you incorrect to say the Bible was ordained by Christ.

And why do you insist that I'm a protestant of which I'm not. I don't subscribe to any denomination.

I am saying the Bible is not to be used to defend your favored doctrines or teachings by picking and choosing, and ignoring the difficult passages --- like Luther did. He wanted to eliminate the epistle of James because it had too much emphasis on works, he referred to it as "the epistle of straw." He wanted to teach that we are saved by "faith alone" by adding the word "alone" to Scripture. And so on.

You and your protestant friends do more theological gymnastics to try to maneuver around the truth or passages that counter your claims than I can count. John 6 speaks quite clearly about the vital importance about the body and blood of Christ, but it is so easily swept under the rug. Same for ordained ministers given the authority to bind or loose sins. Again, pretend not to notice. And so on.

Yes we pray to Mary and many other saints. No we do not worship her. Do you worship your friend because they prayed for you? Are you hung up on statues? Those are not "idols" which is what Scripture refers to in the 10 commandments. But why should I bother explaining, when you and yours are ignoring everything else set before you?

You ask about verses in the Bible that refer to purgatory? I already said, it is in a top post I made yesterday. Feel free to comment on it.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

It appears to me when you say "It's not what I think, it's what the Bible says," what you really mean is it's what parts of the Bible say, only. There are serious contradictions to your protestant views of salvation, of faith, and of the Church. Very serious, and too many to mention in detail.

Who has the power to bind sins or loose them? Anybody who calls themselves a Christian? What if the two disagree?

When Jesus says "the gates of hell shall not prevail against thee (the church)" to who or what is he referring to? Everyone who thinks they are "the church?" That's nonsense.

The "Church" has different meanings in Scripture. It exhausts me to hear protestants constantly declare it only refers to the "body of believers." Again, nonsense. The Church is a divinely ordained authority and the twelve apostles are an ordained hierarchy. As is their successors. Why would it have been so important for them to choose a successor to Judas if there were no special authority given unto the twelve?

Explain who the Church is in Matthew 18? It surely is made distinct from simply a group of believers. 15 “If your brother sins[k], go and [l]show him his fault [m]in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every [n]fact may be confirmed. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as [o]a Gentile and [p]a tax collector

Where does Catholic teaching say we worship Mary or the saints? I know that is what the protestant voice wishes we would do so it would make your case stronger, but we do not. We venerate her, we pray to her. We pray to the saints and the fruits have been manifested hear on earth a million times over. It's ok to ask your friend to pray for you, yes we agree. But to ask the Mother of God to pray for us, you seriously think this causes God to be angry? You think honoring the mother of Jesus causes Jesus heartbreak?

I cannot go on, but I just cannot endure protestant musings. They dance around John 6 about Jesus flesh and blood in the Eucharist --- they dance around the Church being the authority to forgive sins or hold them bound --- and then they act as though they are so beholden to every word of Scripture. Then they also pretend the Bible just came down from heaven and no one in the early Church had anything to do with it. Note: the Church was here, and ordained by Christ, long before there was a Bible.

You might want to look at my top post from yesterday about purgatory not being in the Bible. That is only a sample of passages in Scripture that must refer to a purification after death. Protestants can spin those verses all they want, but it only gives another impression of desperation, IMO.

Parts of the Bible are still the Bible so I am correct. So you're saying the Bible is a "protestant" viewpoint?

As you say there are many definitions of "church" and the definition in Matthew 18, Jesus used the Greek word ekklesia (a called out assembly) that in English it generally translates to church even though church comes from a different Greek word kuriokos that means " house of the Lord".

You pray to Mary but claim not to worship her. That's why there aren't any statues of her anywhere huh? Or any of the saints that are prayed to.

The Bible predates the birth of Christ unless you just want to forget about the Old Testament. So you incorrect to say the Bible was ordained by Christ.

And why do you insist that I'm a protestant of which I'm not. I don't subscribe to any denomination.

I am saying the Bible is not to be used to defend your favored doctrines or teachings by picking and choosing, and ignoring the difficult passages --- like Luther did. He wanted to eliminate the epistle of James because it had too much emphasis on works, he referred to it as "the epistle of straw." He wanted to teach that we are saved by "faith alone" by adding the word "alone" to Scripture. And so on.

You and your protestant friends do more theological gymnastics to try to maneuver around the truth or passages that counter your claims than I can count. John 6 speaks quite clearly about the vital importance about the body and blood of Christ, but it is so easily swept under the rug. Same for ordained ministers given the authority to bind or loose sins. Again, pretend not to notice. And so on.

Yes we pray to Mary and many other saints. No we do not worship her. Do you worship your friend because they prayed for you? Are you hung up on statues? Those are not "idols" which is what Scripture refers to in the 10 commandments. But why should I bother explaining, when you and yours are ignoring everything else set before you?

You ask about verses in the Bible that refer to purgatory? I already said, it is in a top post I made yesterday. Feel free to comment on it.

I don't really care what Luther did, that has no relevance to anything I've stated.

I don't have any "protestant" friends. But hey don't let the truth stop you from bearing false witness.

Who has swept John 6 under the rug?

Who are these ordained ministers that are authorized to bind or loose sins? And please cite the specific scripture that speaks to this.

You claim you do not worship Mary, yet you pray to her and build statues of her, you hold her in reverence, honor and adoration which is by definition worshipping her.

Praying for someone is quite different than praying to someone.

Am I hung up on statues? No. But I am confused as why her statue as well as crucifixes of Jesus are prayed to.

And who are you referring to when you say "you and yours"?

I'm speaking for myself and myself alone and no others are speaking for me.

 

[Wry Catcher]

The Bible says:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life” (John 3:16).

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9).

These are only two verses among many more that make it very clear about what we all must do to be saved. It isn’t rocket science! A child can understand this! Jesus wrote it this simply, so we could all understand!

Then why do they say?

They were so good. They gave so much. She raised us well. He worked hard to support us. He was a good husband. She was a great wife. They loved everybody. They were so well liked. They always paid their bills. They belonged to the church. They were baptized. They walked the aisle. They headed up all these organizations. They donated to various organizations.

This list could go on and on and on infinitum, but only one thing is important at this point. Did they put their trust in Jesus Christ to save them? That’s it!

It amazes me that people will rest the eternal destiny of their soul upon what everybody says, except the One who gives them the correct information. That correct information is called the Truth.

The Bible says:

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:6).

There you have it! Jesus will tell you the Truth. He even goes on to say that if you want to go to Heaven after you die, He is the only way to get there. We must go through Him by faith or we don’t go at all.

It certainly isn’t up to me, or you, to even attempt to determine if so-and-so is saved when we notice their actions. Christians can be “naughty” too, and the heavenly Father does discipline His children─unlike most earthly parents of today. Nevertheless, I have seen folks live for the devil and think that they’re okay. They think can live for the devil down here, and live for Jesus in heaven, I guess. Where did that idea come from? I don’t know where it came from, but it is widely practiced.

Okay, so I do know where it comes from. Notice this passage:

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8).

Satan, the devil, is a roaring lion, and I can assure you he isn’t going hungry. Every day people are dying, good people, and going to hell, because they are being swept up in his lies. Satan says, “Live any way you want, there is no hell, your good deeds will out-weigh your bad deeds, there are many ways to God.” Blah, blah, blah… It is all a lie. Only Jesus will tell you the Truth. Listen to Him.

Jesus isn’t out to devour us. Satan is. Jesus is out to save as many as will come to Him. Satan is out to prevent it. One final thought: Are any of us really good? Notice what God has to say about that:

“As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one” (Romans 3:10-12).

“And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God” (Mark 10:18).

We may think our loved one is now in heaven with God because they were “good” but that isn’t what God says. If they are now in heaven with God, it is because they believed in His Son Jesus and Jesus saved their soul.

What about Mark 10:18 above? I suppose someone is thinking, “Jesus wasn’t good either. He said so.”

That is not what Jesus said. He said:

“Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God.”

Is He not God? Notice what He says in the book of John.

“My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one” (John 10:29-30
GP

Man is born free, but everywhere religions reign he is put in chains. Hence the genius of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. To wit, let everyman choose the chains s/he will wear, a just government will not provide them.

I can understand why you think religion is a chain but it's quite the opposite in my opinion.

Jesus said "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
(John 8:32)

There is no primary source nor a context to support this attribution. That said, most religious dogma is based on "Don't!", as in thou shall not.

A free man does good works not to avoid punishment nor to reap rewards. He does so because it is the right thing to do.

 

[oldfart]

Apparently the first Jesuit Pope has a different opinion:

Pope Francis went further in his sermon to say:

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”
Responding to the leader of the Roman Catholic church's homily, Father James Martin, S.J. wrote in an email to The Huffington Post:

"Pope Francis is saying, more clearly than ever before, that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for everyone. That's always been a Christian belief. You can find St. Paul saying in the First Letter to Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a "ransom for all." But rarely do you hear it said by Catholics so forcefully, and with such evident joy. And in this era of religious controversies, it's a timely reminder that God cannot be confined to our narrow categories."

Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

 

[turzovka]

Parts of the Bible are still the Bible so I am correct. So you're saying the Bible is a "protestant" viewpoint?

As you say there are many definitions of "church" and the definition in Matthew 18, Jesus used the Greek word ekklesia (a called out assembly) that in English it generally translates to church even though church comes from a different Greek word kuriokos that means " house of the Lord".

You pray to Mary but claim not to worship her. That's why there aren't any statues of her anywhere huh? Or any of the saints that are prayed to.

The Bible predates the birth of Christ unless you just want to forget about the Old Testament. So you incorrect to say the Bible was ordained by Christ.

And why do you insist that I'm a protestant of which I'm not. I don't subscribe to any denomination.

I am saying the Bible is not to be used to defend your favored doctrines or teachings by picking and choosing, and ignoring the difficult passages --- like Luther did. He wanted to eliminate the epistle of James because it had too much emphasis on works, he referred to it as "the epistle of straw." He wanted to teach that we are saved by "faith alone" by adding the word "alone" to Scripture. And so on.

You and your protestant friends do more theological gymnastics to try to maneuver around the truth or passages that counter your claims than I can count. John 6 speaks quite clearly about the vital importance about the body and blood of Christ, but it is so easily swept under the rug. Same for ordained ministers given the authority to bind or loose sins. Again, pretend not to notice. And so on.

Yes we pray to Mary and many other saints. No we do not worship her. Do you worship your friend because they prayed for you? Are you hung up on statues? Those are not "idols" which is what Scripture refers to in the 10 commandments. But why should I bother explaining, when you and yours are ignoring everything else set before you?

You ask about verses in the Bible that refer to purgatory? I already said, it is in a top post I made yesterday. Feel free to comment on it.

I don't really care what Luther did, that has no relevance to anything I've stated.

I don't have any "protestant" friends. But hey don't let the truth stop you from bearing false witness.

Who has swept John 6 under the rug?

Who are these ordained ministers that are authorized to bind or loose sins? And please cite the specific scripture that speaks to this.

You claim you do not worship Mary, yet you pray to her and build statues of her, you hold her in reverence, honor and adoration which is by definition worshipping her.

Praying for someone is quite different than praying to someone.

Am I hung up on statues? No. But I am confused as why her statue as well as crucifixes of Jesus are prayed to.

And who are you referring to when you say "you and yours"?

I'm speaking for myself and myself alone and no others are speaking for me.

Until you start addressing the passages I spoke of with specific interpretations and / or evidence, this conversation is going nowhere. So if you decide to continue with your same tactics of diversion, that's fine ---- but you can then have the last word here, if you want it.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Man is born free, but everywhere religions reign he is put in chains. Hence the genius of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. To wit, let everyman choose the chains s/he will wear, a just government will not provide them.

I can understand why you think religion is a chain but it's quite the opposite in my opinion.

Jesus said "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
(John 8:32)

There is no primary source nor a context to support this attribution. That said, most religious dogma is based on "Don't!", as in thou shall not.

A free man does good works not to avoid punishment nor to reap rewards. He does so because it is the right thing to do.

A religious man (and I speak for myself) does good for the same reasons.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Apparently the first Jesuit Pope has a different opinion:

Pope Francis went further in his sermon to say:

"The Lord created us in His image and likeness, and we are the image of the Lord, and He does good and all of us have this commandment at heart: do good and do not do evil. All of us. ‘But, Father, this is not Catholic! He cannot do good.’ Yes, he can... "The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!".. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”
Responding to the leader of the Roman Catholic church's homily, Father James Martin, S.J. wrote in an email to The Huffington Post:

"Pope Francis is saying, more clearly than ever before, that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for everyone. That's always been a Christian belief. You can find St. Paul saying in the First Letter to Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a "ransom for all." But rarely do you hear it said by Catholics so forcefully, and with such evident joy. And in this era of religious controversies, it's a timely reminder that God cannot be confined to our narrow categories."

Pope Francis Says Atheists Who Do Good Are Redeemed, Not Just Catholics

The only way to the Father is though the Son. There are no if's, ands or buts about it.

 

[Wry Catcher]

I can understand why you think religion is a chain but it's quite the opposite in my opinion.

Jesus said "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
(John 8:32)

There is no primary source nor a context to support this attribution. That said, most religious dogma is based on "Don't!", as in thou shall not.

A free man does good works not to avoid punishment nor to reap rewards. He does so because it is the right thing to do.

A religious man (and I speak for myself) does good for the same reasons.

You may; but evidence suggests that many religious men do harm to reap rewards. Of course athiests do harm also, but not (we can infer) for any external benefit.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I am saying the Bible is not to be used to defend your favored doctrines or teachings by picking and choosing, and ignoring the difficult passages --- like Luther did. He wanted to eliminate the epistle of James because it had too much emphasis on works, he referred to it as "the epistle of straw." He wanted to teach that we are saved by "faith alone" by adding the word "alone" to Scripture. And so on.

You and your protestant friends do more theological gymnastics to try to maneuver around the truth or passages that counter your claims than I can count. John 6 speaks quite clearly about the vital importance about the body and blood of Christ, but it is so easily swept under the rug. Same for ordained ministers given the authority to bind or loose sins. Again, pretend not to notice. And so on.

Yes we pray to Mary and many other saints. No we do not worship her. Do you worship your friend because they prayed for you? Are you hung up on statues? Those are not "idols" which is what Scripture refers to in the 10 commandments. But why should I bother explaining, when you and yours are ignoring everything else set before you?

You ask about verses in the Bible that refer to purgatory? I already said, it is in a top post I made yesterday. Feel free to comment on it.

I don't really care what Luther did, that has no relevance to anything I've stated.

I don't have any "protestant" friends. But hey don't let the truth stop you from bearing false witness.

Who has swept John 6 under the rug?

Who are these ordained ministers that are authorized to bind or loose sins? And please cite the specific scripture that speaks to this.

You claim you do not worship Mary, yet you pray to her and build statues of her, you hold her in reverence, honor and adoration which is by definition worshipping her.

Praying for someone is quite different than praying to someone.

Am I hung up on statues? No. But I am confused as why her statue as well as crucifixes of Jesus are prayed to.

And who are you referring to when you say "you and yours"?

I'm speaking for myself and myself alone and no others are speaking for me.

Until you start addressing the passages I spoke of with specific interpretations and / or evidence, this conversation is going nowhere. So if you decide to continue with your same tactics of diversion, that's fine ---- but you can then have the last word here, if you want it.

What passage did you speak of? John 6? The one you falsely claimed I swept under the rug? Or Matthew and the "sinning brother" which I did speak to? I explained how the Greek interpretation of "ekklesia" to English was incorrectly translated to mean church when it should have been interpreted as "assembly" as it was in Acts 19:32,39 and 41.

The first complete English Bible was the Tyndale Bible and it did not use the word church anywhere. It used the word congregation. Sometime after this Bible the word congregation was replaced by church.

The Meaning of Ekklesia

 

[Lonestar_logic]

There is no primary source nor a context to support this attribution. That said, most religious dogma is based on "Don't!", as in thou shall not.

A free man does good works not to avoid punishment nor to reap rewards. He does so because it is the right thing to do.

A religious man (and I speak for myself) does good for the same reasons.

You may; but evidence suggests that many religious men do harm to reap rewards. Of course athiests do harm also, but not (we can infer) for any external benefit.

Then they are hypocrites. The Bible tells us that we are created to honor and glorify God and we should not seek rewards for our good deeds for we will be rewarded in Heaven.

Isaiah 43:7
“Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.” (KJV)

1 Corinthians 10:31
“So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.” (ESV)

1 Corinthians 6:20
“For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.” (KJV)

1 Corinthians 6:20
“you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.” (NIV)

Matthew 6:1
"Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

 

[numan]

I explained how the Greek interpretation of "ekklesia" to English was incorrectly translated to mean church when it should have been interpreted as "assembly" as it was in Acts 19:32,39 and 41.

The first complete English Bible was the Tyndale Bible and it did not use the word church anywhere. It used the word congregation. Sometime after this Bible the word congregation was replaced by church.

Oh, ho! Lonestar has sneaked the word "congregation" into this discussion!!

I bet Lonestar belongs to a coven of satanic Calvinists, and believes in pre-destination and that earthly riches are a sign of God's favor!!

Homo mercator vix aut nunquam potest Deo placere.

"The businessman seldom or never is pleasing to God."
---Thomas Aquinas
.

 

[Dajjal]

The only way to the Father is though the Son. There are no if's, ands or buts about it.

Unless the great secret is that we are all the sons of God (women too, as the discarnate spirit is asexual). That is what the spirit world teaches. It is even in the bible.


Psalms:82:6: I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Isa:41:23: Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

Joh34: Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

1Co:6 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

 

[numan]

I can understand why you think religion is a chain but it's quite the opposite in my opinion.

Jesus said "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
(John 8:32)

From all I have seen, Texans, in particular, make Hating the Truth the First Commandment of their religion.
.

 

[numan]

Jesus taught respect and acceptance of everyone.

Even the moneychangers in the Temple, Mr. Lawyer?

.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I explained how the Greek interpretation of "ekklesia" to English was incorrectly translated to mean church when it should have been interpreted as "assembly" as it was in Acts 19:32,39 and 41.

The first complete English Bible was the Tyndale Bible and it did not use the word church anywhere. It used the word congregation. Sometime after this Bible the word congregation was replaced by church.

Oh, ho! Lonestar has sneaked the word "congregation" into this discussion!!

I bet Lonestar belongs to a coven of satanic Calvinists, and believes in pre-destination and that earthly riches are a sign of God's favor!!

Homo mercator vix aut nunquam potest Deo placere.

"The businessman seldom or never is pleasing to God."
---Thomas Aquinas
.

Do you have anything of intelligence to add to the discussion?

Seems to me all you bring to the table are snide remarks and veiled insults.

But I understand how powerful people like you think you are while hidden safely behind the anonymity of a computer screen and how sad a life you must lead to have to mock and ridicule those that are clearly intellectually superior than yourself.