Racist groups vs Free Speech, i've converted...

[Crixus]

Yup. Ask me to explain.

I thought that was implied. And please include some actual evidence or facts not just speculative conspiracy theories...

First, you look at their organization. They aren't an organization (ANTIFA) I can't find a website for them in this country, only the U.K. If you look, and I'll include a link so you can see, the rhetoric is the exact same as that as the conspiracy nuts who are regularly quoted by nut jobs on both ends. Being what it is, when you beat ANTIFA on the news in this country it's typically the same people you see at G20 summits burning shit. They even say so in their rhetoric on Facebook, twitter and such. Anyway, if you see ANTIFA you can bet BLM was there, code pink and the rest. This is why the beanie and masks. No Democrat dare disavow them because they fear losing more black votes as
well as white people who are "down with the cause". As for the rhetoric. Let's compare them some,

Alleged ANTIFT hand book.



The Antifa Handbook - 1A

"Antifascists argue that after the horrors of chattel slavery and the Holocaust, physical violence against white supremacists is both ethically justifiable and strategically effective. We should not, they argue, abstractly assess the ethical status of violence in the absence of the values and context behind it. Instead, they put forth an ethically consistent, historically informed argument for fighting Nazis before it’s too late."


Hmmm, so it's by their own admission a fact they exist only to cause trouble.

That said, for the purposes of the discussion, does Antifa have an issue with Jews? Yes, it's plainly on all their rhetoric that's on he well in photos and literature. Can you agree about that?

Where do you see evidence that they have issues with the Jews? Their literature and actions show anti-hate efforts against white supremacists and Nazis. That would show that they are trying and stand up for blacks and Jews.

I don't like their tactics so I won't stand up for the violence and destruction, but they do appear to support the anti-hate causes in their mission statement.

Please explain better why you think they are anti Jew and supporting the white supremacists causes like you claimed.

Gotta hold there. Doing the eclipse with my girl child. Way more fun gen this!

Glad to see you have your priorities straight... I'm fogged in :-/

Hey, real fast, interesting and informative article. Personally, I would be more inclined to listening to a guy or gal who was not in a mask and breaking stuff. Good article though.



Analysis | Who are the antifa?


But what is antifa? Where did it come from? Militant anti-fascist or “antifa” (pronounced ANtifa) is a radical pan-leftist politics of social revolution applied to fighting the far right. Its adherents are predominantly communists, socialists and anarchists who reject turning to the police or the state to halt the advance of white supremacy. Instead they advocate popular opposition to fascism as we witnessed in Charlottesville.

 

[Slash]

I thought that was implied. And please include some actual evidence or facts not just speculative conspiracy theories...

First, you look at their organization. They aren't an organization (ANTIFA) I can't find a website for them in this country, only the U.K. If you look, and I'll include a link so you can see, the rhetoric is the exact same as that as the conspiracy nuts who are regularly quoted by nut jobs on both ends. Being what it is, when you beat ANTIFA on the news in this country it's typically the same people you see at G20 summits burning shit. They even say so in their rhetoric on Facebook, twitter and such. Anyway, if you see ANTIFA you can bet BLM was there, code pink and the rest. This is why the beanie and masks. No Democrat dare disavow them because they fear losing more black votes as
well as white people who are "down with the cause". As for the rhetoric. Let's compare them some,

Alleged ANTIFT hand book.



The Antifa Handbook - 1A

"Antifascists argue that after the horrors of chattel slavery and the Holocaust, physical violence against white supremacists is both ethically justifiable and strategically effective. We should not, they argue, abstractly assess the ethical status of violence in the absence of the values and context behind it. Instead, they put forth an ethically consistent, historically informed argument for fighting Nazis before it’s too late."


Hmmm, so it's by their own admission a fact they exist only to cause trouble.

That said, for the purposes of the discussion, does Antifa have an issue with Jews? Yes, it's plainly on all their rhetoric that's on he well in photos and literature. Can you agree about that?

Where do you see evidence that they have issues with the Jews? Their literature and actions show anti-hate efforts against white supremacists and Nazis. That would show that they are trying and stand up for blacks and Jews.

I don't like their tactics so I won't stand up for the violence and destruction, but they do appear to support the anti-hate causes in their mission statement.

Please explain better why you think they are anti Jew and supporting the white supremacists causes like you claimed.

Gotta hold there. Doing the eclipse with my girl child. Way more fun gen this!

Glad to see you have your priorities straight... I'm fogged in :-/

Hey, real fast, interesting and informative article. Personally, I would be more inclined to listening to a guy or gal who was not in a mask and breaking stuff. Good article though.



Analysis | Who are the antifa?


But what is antifa? Where did it come from? Militant anti-fascist or “antifa” (pronounced ANtifa) is a radical pan-leftist politics of social revolution applied to fighting the far right. Its adherents are predominantly communists, socialists and anarchists who reject turning to the police or the state to halt the advance of white supremacy. Instead they advocate popular opposition to fascism as we witnessed in Charlottesville.

Trying to find the information where he got that the majority are communists, socialists and anarchists. I mean I could write a piece where I say that white supremacists predominantly believe that by eating babies they will be able to raise Hitler from the dead into a zombie Hitler. But without any evidence to back that up, what I wrote is completely worthless.

 

[Slade3200]

I thought that was implied. And please include some actual evidence or facts not just speculative conspiracy theories...

First, you look at their organization. They aren't an organization (ANTIFA) I can't find a website for them in this country, only the U.K. If you look, and I'll include a link so you can see, the rhetoric is the exact same as that as the conspiracy nuts who are regularly quoted by nut jobs on both ends. Being what it is, when you beat ANTIFA on the news in this country it's typically the same people you see at G20 summits burning shit. They even say so in their rhetoric on Facebook, twitter and such. Anyway, if you see ANTIFA you can bet BLM was there, code pink and the rest. This is why the beanie and masks. No Democrat dare disavow them because they fear losing more black votes as
well as white people who are "down with the cause". As for the rhetoric. Let's compare them some,

Alleged ANTIFT hand book.



The Antifa Handbook - 1A

"Antifascists argue that after the horrors of chattel slavery and the Holocaust, physical violence against white supremacists is both ethically justifiable and strategically effective. We should not, they argue, abstractly assess the ethical status of violence in the absence of the values and context behind it. Instead, they put forth an ethically consistent, historically informed argument for fighting Nazis before it’s too late."


Hmmm, so it's by their own admission a fact they exist only to cause trouble.

That said, for the purposes of the discussion, does Antifa have an issue with Jews? Yes, it's plainly on all their rhetoric that's on he well in photos and literature. Can you agree about that?

Where do you see evidence that they have issues with the Jews? Their literature and actions show anti-hate efforts against white supremacists and Nazis. That would show that they are trying and stand up for blacks and Jews.

I don't like their tactics so I won't stand up for the violence and destruction, but they do appear to support the anti-hate causes in their mission statement.

Please explain better why you think they are anti Jew and supporting the white supremacists causes like you claimed.

Gotta hold there. Doing the eclipse with my girl child. Way more fun gen this!

Glad to see you have your priorities straight... I'm fogged in :-/

Hey, real fast, interesting and informative article. Personally, I would be more inclined to listening to a guy or gal who was not in a mask and breaking stuff. Good article though.



Analysis | Who are the antifa?


But what is antifa? Where did it come from? Militant anti-fascist or “antifa” (pronounced ANtifa) is a radical pan-leftist politics of social revolution applied to fighting the far right. Its adherents are predominantly communists, socialists and anarchists who reject turning to the police or the state to halt the advance of white supremacy. Instead they advocate popular opposition to fascism as we witnessed in Charlottesville.

I think that description falls in line from what i've seen in their actions. They seem to be pretty motivated to make some noise and overpower anything that they perceive as hateful and discriminatory.

I've said many times that I do not condone that behavior as I think our freedom of speech is a very sacred thing, even horrible speech. There are better and more civil ways to deal with that opposition in our society. I think these ANTIFA people see themselves as vigilantes of a sort, fighting the good fight. Its like the guy that punches the school yard bully for picking on the little kid. I don't condone the violence and think there are better solutions, however, I understand the motivation to stand up to and fight against the "evil"

 

[Slade3200]

First, you look at their organization. They aren't an organization (ANTIFA) I can't find a website for them in this country, only the U.K. If you look, and I'll include a link so you can see, the rhetoric is the exact same as that as the conspiracy nuts who are regularly quoted by nut jobs on both ends. Being what it is, when you beat ANTIFA on the news in this country it's typically the same people you see at G20 summits burning shit. They even say so in their rhetoric on Facebook, twitter and such. Anyway, if you see ANTIFA you can bet BLM was there, code pink and the rest. This is why the beanie and masks. No Democrat dare disavow them because they fear losing more black votes as
well as white people who are "down with the cause". As for the rhetoric. Let's compare them some,

Alleged ANTIFT hand book.



The Antifa Handbook - 1A

"Antifascists argue that after the horrors of chattel slavery and the Holocaust, physical violence against white supremacists is both ethically justifiable and strategically effective. We should not, they argue, abstractly assess the ethical status of violence in the absence of the values and context behind it. Instead, they put forth an ethically consistent, historically informed argument for fighting Nazis before it’s too late."


Hmmm, so it's by their own admission a fact they exist only to cause trouble.

That said, for the purposes of the discussion, does Antifa have an issue with Jews? Yes, it's plainly on all their rhetoric that's on he well in photos and literature. Can you agree about that?

Where do you see evidence that they have issues with the Jews? Their literature and actions show anti-hate efforts against white supremacists and Nazis. That would show that they are trying and stand up for blacks and Jews.

I don't like their tactics so I won't stand up for the violence and destruction, but they do appear to support the anti-hate causes in their mission statement.

Please explain better why you think they are anti Jew and supporting the white supremacists causes like you claimed.

Gotta hold there. Doing the eclipse with my girl child. Way more fun gen this!

Glad to see you have your priorities straight... I'm fogged in :-/

Hey, real fast, interesting and informative article. Personally, I would be more inclined to listening to a guy or gal who was not in a mask and breaking stuff. Good article though.



Analysis | Who are the antifa?


But what is antifa? Where did it come from? Militant anti-fascist or “antifa” (pronounced ANtifa) is a radical pan-leftist politics of social revolution applied to fighting the far right. Its adherents are predominantly communists, socialists and anarchists who reject turning to the police or the state to halt the advance of white supremacy. Instead they advocate popular opposition to fascism as we witnessed in Charlottesville.

Trying to find the information where he got that the majority are communists, socialists and anarchists. I mean I could write a piece where I say that white supremacists predominantly believe that by eating babies they will be able to raise Hitler from the dead into a zombie Hitler. But without any evidence to back that up, what I wrote is completely worthless.

I've seen no data on the make up of that group. I have heard that some Anarchist groups have joined up with their cause, but beyond that I don't know what their activist demographic is comprised of... My guess is that it is diverse like it is for BLM

 

[AntonToo]

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

Yea, we need to tell them how awesome they are...that will disengage their persecution complex, make them bored and they will turn to a message of tolerance and mutual respect.

 

[martybegan]

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

Yea, we need to tell them how awesome they are...that will disengage their persecution complex, make them bored and they will turn into decent, tolerant folk.

No, you ignore them, and like most human endeavors a large part of the movement is made up of the not 100% committed. If they are ignored, many will lose interest and you will left with the dullard impotent core.

 

[AntonToo]

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

Yea, we need to tell them how awesome they are...that will disengage their persecution complex, make them bored and they will turn into decent, tolerant folk.

No, you ignore them, and like most human endeavors a large part of the movement is made up of the not 100% committed. If they are ignored, many will lose interest and you will left with the dullard impotent core.

Half of the confederate monuments were put up in the heyday of Jim Crow period. When you ignore them, they do not lose interest and they do not go away - they breed and multiply.

 

[martybegan]

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

Yea, we need to tell them how awesome they are...that will disengage their persecution complex, make them bored and they will turn into decent, tolerant folk.

No, you ignore them, and like most human endeavors a large part of the movement is made up of the not 100% committed. If they are ignored, many will lose interest and you will left with the dullard impotent core.

Half of the confederate monuments were put up in the heyday of Jim Crow period. When you ignore them, they do not lose interest and they do not go away - they breed and multiply.

The early Jim Crow period was also right around the time many of the veterans from the war were dying off, it was when the Union memorials also were going up.

Many of these are from the 1890's to the 1920's which puts the youngest (15 in 1865) vets around 45 to 75 years old.

 

[Slade3200]

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

Yea, we need to tell them how awesome they are...that will disengage their persecution complex, make them bored and they will turn into decent, tolerant folk.

No, you ignore them, and like most human endeavors a large part of the movement is made up of the not 100% committed. If they are ignored, many will lose interest and you will left with the dullard impotent core.

Half of the confederate monuments were put up in the heyday of Jim Crow period. When you ignore them, they do not lose interest and they do not go away - they breed and multiply.

The early Jim Crow period was also right around the time many of the veterans from the war were dying off, it was when the Union memorials also were going up.

Many of these are from the 1890's to the 1920's which puts the youngest (15 in 1865) vets around 45 to 75 years old.

So confederate vets were heros post war and then memorialized after they died... I don't see how that is a counter arguement to the accusation that their memorialization was a fuck you to Washington and the equality efforts of that time. We saw the post war protests for decades after the war through Jim Crow, the hanging of the confederate flag, and memorials like these! Is plain as day obvious.

With that said, the story and context needs to be considered for each situation. A blanket policy to rip down all confederate monuments is not a smart approach. For example, I've heard compelling arguments about General Lee who was more than just a confederate General. He played a big roll in unifying the nation after the war, and was actually an advocate NOT to erect confederate statues. His story has more historical context than a Jefferson Davis or other general who was pretty much only known as a confedrate war general.

It comes down to how the community wants to represent their values and history through the symbolism and memorials in their cities. This can evolve in time

 

[AntonToo]

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

Yea, we need to tell them how awesome they are...that will disengage their persecution complex, make them bored and they will turn into decent, tolerant folk.

No, you ignore them, and like most human endeavors a large part of the movement is made up of the not 100% committed. If they are ignored, many will lose interest and you will left with the dullard impotent core.

Half of the confederate monuments were put up in the heyday of Jim Crow period. When you ignore them, they do not lose interest and they do not go away - they breed and multiply.

The early Jim Crow period was also right around the time many of the veterans from the war were dying off, it was when the Union memorials also were going up.

Many of these are from the 1890's to the 1920's which puts the youngest (15 in 1865) vets around 45 to 75 years old.

...but Union side had something to be proud of.

 

[martybegan]

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

Yea, we need to tell them how awesome they are...that will disengage their persecution complex, make them bored and they will turn into decent, tolerant folk.

No, you ignore them, and like most human endeavors a large part of the movement is made up of the not 100% committed. If they are ignored, many will lose interest and you will left with the dullard impotent core.

Half of the confederate monuments were put up in the heyday of Jim Crow period. When you ignore them, they do not lose interest and they do not go away - they breed and multiply.

The early Jim Crow period was also right around the time many of the veterans from the war were dying off, it was when the Union memorials also were going up.

Many of these are from the 1890's to the 1920's which puts the youngest (15 in 1865) vets around 45 to 75 years old.

So confederate vets were heros post war and then memorialized after they died... I don't see how that is a counter arguement to the accusation that their memorialization was a fuck you to Washington and the equality efforts of that time. We saw the post war protests for decades after the war through Jim Crow, the hanging of the confederate flag, and memorials like these! Is plain as day obvious.

With that said, the story and context needs to be considered for each situation. A blanket policy to rip down all confederate monuments is not a smart approach. For example, I've heard compelling arguments about General Lee who was more than just a confederate General. He played a big roll in unifying the nation after the war, and was actually an advocate NOT to erect confederate statues. His story has more historical context than a Jefferson Davis or other general who was pretty much only known as a confedrate war general.

It comes down to how the community wants to represent their values and history through the symbolism and memorials in their cities. This can evolve in time

The whole concept after the war was to re-join the country. If allowing the former confederates to honor their dead and their failed leaders was part of that, then it was a small price to pay. To tear down the monuments to that process all of a sudden because of butt hurt is an affront to that process.

If people want to put signs up by each memorial explaining why they suck that's fine, but tearing them down because of the bitchy mewling of a bunch of spoiled asshole kids is crazy.

 

[martybegan]

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

Yea, we need to tell them how awesome they are...that will disengage their persecution complex, make them bored and they will turn into decent, tolerant folk.

No, you ignore them, and like most human endeavors a large part of the movement is made up of the not 100% committed. If they are ignored, many will lose interest and you will left with the dullard impotent core.

Half of the confederate monuments were put up in the heyday of Jim Crow period. When you ignore them, they do not lose interest and they do not go away - they breed and multiply.

The early Jim Crow period was also right around the time many of the veterans from the war were dying off, it was when the Union memorials also were going up.

Many of these are from the 1890's to the 1920's which puts the youngest (15 in 1865) vets around 45 to 75 years old.

...but Union side had something to be proud of.

Yes, and they allowed the losers to remember their fallen and their failed in their own way.

 

[AntonToo]

Yea, we need to tell them how awesome they are...that will disengage their persecution complex, make them bored and they will turn into decent, tolerant folk.

No, you ignore them, and like most human endeavors a large part of the movement is made up of the not 100% committed. If they are ignored, many will lose interest and you will left with the dullard impotent core.

Half of the confederate monuments were put up in the heyday of Jim Crow period. When you ignore them, they do not lose interest and they do not go away - they breed and multiply.

The early Jim Crow period was also right around the time many of the veterans from the war were dying off, it was when the Union memorials also were going up.

Many of these are from the 1890's to the 1920's which puts the youngest (15 in 1865) vets around 45 to 75 years old.

...but Union side had something to be proud of.

Yes, and they allowed the losers to remember their fallen and their failed in their own way.

And they still do. Feds are not down there taking down monuments. It is the people of those locales.

Confederates fought on the wrong side of history and garbage bin is the final destination of their memory.

 

[Slade3200]

Yea, we need to tell them how awesome they are...that will disengage their persecution complex, make them bored and they will turn into decent, tolerant folk.

No, you ignore them, and like most human endeavors a large part of the movement is made up of the not 100% committed. If they are ignored, many will lose interest and you will left with the dullard impotent core.

Half of the confederate monuments were put up in the heyday of Jim Crow period. When you ignore them, they do not lose interest and they do not go away - they breed and multiply.

The early Jim Crow period was also right around the time many of the veterans from the war were dying off, it was when the Union memorials also were going up.

Many of these are from the 1890's to the 1920's which puts the youngest (15 in 1865) vets around 45 to 75 years old.

So confederate vets were heros post war and then memorialized after they died... I don't see how that is a counter arguement to the accusation that their memorialization was a fuck you to Washington and the equality efforts of that time. We saw the post war protests for decades after the war through Jim Crow, the hanging of the confederate flag, and memorials like these! Is plain as day obvious.

With that said, the story and context needs to be considered for each situation. A blanket policy to rip down all confederate monuments is not a smart approach. For example, I've heard compelling arguments about General Lee who was more than just a confederate General. He played a big roll in unifying the nation after the war, and was actually an advocate NOT to erect confederate statues. His story has more historical context than a Jefferson Davis or other general who was pretty much only known as a confedrate war general.

It comes down to how the community wants to represent their values and history through the symbolism and memorials in their cities. This can evolve in time

The whole concept after the war was to re-join the country. If allowing the former confederates to honor their dead and their failed leaders was part of that, then it was a small price to pay. To tear down the monuments to that process all of a sudden because of butt hurt is an affront to that process.

If people want to put signs up by each memorial explaining why they suck that's fine, but tearing them down because of the bitchy mewling of a bunch of spoiled asshole kids is crazy.

Maybe it was effective for the transition after the war or after the war vets died but we are way beyond that now. Nothing wrong with moving on and honoring figures that better represent the values of our country and our people if that is their will. You also can't deny that many of these symbols had the intent of rebelling against the government and served as reminders to blacks that they are not accepted as equals. If that's determined to be the case don't you think it makes sense to removes those from the public arena?

 

[skews13]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

I disagree, that might be the short term play that they will attempt to capitalize on but in the long term it is removing a source of power and supremacy that exists. Many of those statues were constructed during the Jim Crow era as a check to the blacks that the values of the confederacy still exist. Like I said in the OP whether you take them down or minimize them with "counter" statues of civil rights leaders, I think either is a smart move to combat the hate.

The only power being provided is to the white power idiots, giving them a cause and a platform. Most of these were built in the early 1900's, well after the South "won" via plessey. What most of them are related to is the dying off of the Civil War Veterans, most of whom would have been in their 60's-80's between 1900 and 1920, when a lot of these monuments went up. Even the ones that went up in the 60's can be related to the 100th anniversaries of the start and the end of the Civil War

Why not just put up more memorials to Civil Rights leaders and let people see them all? .

Because time goes on and a whole new generation of people will evolve while the current generation of adults that are familiar die off. Which means very young children and those not born yet will ever be exposed to those statues or the adults caught up in the conflict of the moment forever erasing the stain from public view and relegating it to history books that they won't care about after leaving school permanently throwing the Confederacy and white supremacy on the scrap heap of history. After the 2040's a minority majority is now the US populace and the shit stains that are the current neonazi kkk white supremacists never again have any power politically socially or economically to be of any relevance. So I also take side with the OP that every single statue these maggots worship should be removed completely before the end of 2017.

 

[Slade3200]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

I disagree, that might be the short term play that they will attempt to capitalize on but in the long term it is removing a source of power and supremacy that exists. Many of those statues were constructed during the Jim Crow era as a check to the blacks that the values of the confederacy still exist. Like I said in the OP whether you take them down or minimize them with "counter" statues of civil rights leaders, I think either is a smart move to combat the hate.

The only power being provided is to the white power idiots, giving them a cause and a platform. Most of these were built in the early 1900's, well after the South "won" via plessey. What most of them are related to is the dying off of the Civil War Veterans, most of whom would have been in their 60's-80's between 1900 and 1920, when a lot of these monuments went up. Even the ones that went up in the 60's can be related to the 100th anniversaries of the start and the end of the Civil War

Why not just put up more memorials to Civil Rights leaders and let people see them all? .

Because time goes on and a whole new generation of people will evolve while the current generation of adults that are familiar die off. Which means very young children and those not born yet will ever be exposed to those statues or the adults caught up in the conflict of the moment forever erasing the stain from public view and relegating it to history books that they won't care about after leaving school permanently throwing the Confederacy and white supremacy on the scrap heap of history. After the 2040's a minority majority is now the US populace and the shit stains that are the current neonazi kkk white supremacists never again have any power politically socially or economically to be of any relevance. So I also take side with the OP that every single statue these maggots worship should be removed completely before the end of 2017.

I'd warn against taking a hardline stance on this as proposing unreasonable or unrealistic options like removing all statues this year without civil discourse or debate can lead to empowering your opponents and hurting your cause. Same goes with the proposals that i've heard from many on the left wing that the Washington and Jefferson monuments be taken down because they were slave owners.

To have a healthy discussion and action plan you need to be able understand the perspectives from all angles and there is a value viewpoint, held by many, that appreciates American history and the role that these figures played. For those who find these statues as important/valuable on a historical basis then perhaps moving them to museums or adding other monuments to stand with them that tells a more complete story is the appropriate way to move forward. This takes away the celebration and empowerment that hate groups associate with these statues and still preserves them for historical purposes. Either way, it has to be taken in a case by case basis.

 

[Crixus]

Where do you see evidence that they have issues with the Jews? Their literature and actions show anti-hate efforts against white supremacists and Nazis. That would show that they are trying and stand up for blacks and Jews.

I don't like their tactics so I won't stand up for the violence and destruction, but they do appear to support the anti-hate causes in their mission statement.

Please explain better why you think they are anti Jew and supporting the white supremacists causes like you claimed.

Gotta hold there. Doing the eclipse with my girl child. Way more fun gen this!

Glad to see you have your priorities straight... I'm fogged in :-/

Hey, real fast, interesting and informative article. Personally, I would be more inclined to listening to a guy or gal who was not in a mask and breaking stuff. Good article though.



Analysis | Who are the antifa?


But what is antifa? Where did it come from? Militant anti-fascist or “antifa” (pronounced ANtifa) is a radical pan-leftist politics of social revolution applied to fighting the far right. Its adherents are predominantly communists, socialists and anarchists who reject turning to the police or the state to halt the advance of white supremacy. Instead they advocate popular opposition to fascism as we witnessed in Charlottesville.

Trying to find the information where he got that the majority are communists, socialists and anarchists. I mean I could write a piece where I say that white supremacists predominantly believe that by eating babies they will be able to raise Hitler from the dead into a zombie Hitler. But without any evidence to back that up, what I wrote is completely worthless.

I've seen no data on the make up of that group. I have heard that some Anarchist groups have joined up with their cause, but beyond that I don't know what their activist demographic is comprised of... My guess is that it is diverse like it is for BLM

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

Yea, we need to tell them how awesome they are...that will disengage their persecution complex, make them bored and they will turn into decent, tolerant folk.

No, you ignore them, and like most human endeavors a large part of the movement is made up of the not 100% committed. If they are ignored, many will lose interest and you will left with the dullard impotent core.

Half of the confederate monuments were put up in the heyday of Jim Crow period. When you ignore them, they do not lose interest and they do not go away - they breed and multiply.

The early Jim Crow period was also right around the time many of the veterans from the war were dying off, it was when the Union memorials also were going up.

Many of these are from the 1890's to the 1920's which puts the youngest (15 in 1865) vets around 45 to 75 years old.

...but Union side had something to be proud of.

Who cares? They won! You need to deal with that! Settled hash. Who gives two fucks who owned slaves or what socks the union was during reconstruction. It happened deal with it. And America used slaves. Deal with it. No black people wer or are slaves today and the blunbellys aren't roaming the streets tar and feathering rebs.

 

[AntonToo]

Gotta hold there. Doing the eclipse with my girl child. Way more fun gen this!

Glad to see you have your priorities straight... I'm fogged in :-/

Hey, real fast, interesting and informative article. Personally, I would be more inclined to listening to a guy or gal who was not in a mask and breaking stuff. Good article though.



Analysis | Who are the antifa?


But what is antifa? Where did it come from? Militant anti-fascist or “antifa” (pronounced ANtifa) is a radical pan-leftist politics of social revolution applied to fighting the far right. Its adherents are predominantly communists, socialists and anarchists who reject turning to the police or the state to halt the advance of white supremacy. Instead they advocate popular opposition to fascism as we witnessed in Charlottesville.

Trying to find the information where he got that the majority are communists, socialists and anarchists. I mean I could write a piece where I say that white supremacists predominantly believe that by eating babies they will be able to raise Hitler from the dead into a zombie Hitler. But without any evidence to back that up, what I wrote is completely worthless.

I've seen no data on the make up of that group. I have heard that some Anarchist groups have joined up with their cause, but beyond that I don't know what their activist demographic is comprised of... My guess is that it is diverse like it is for BLM

Yea, we need to tell them how awesome they are...that will disengage their persecution complex, make them bored and they will turn into decent, tolerant folk.

No, you ignore them, and like most human endeavors a large part of the movement is made up of the not 100% committed. If they are ignored, many will lose interest and you will left with the dullard impotent core.

Half of the confederate monuments were put up in the heyday of Jim Crow period. When you ignore them, they do not lose interest and they do not go away - they breed and multiply.

The early Jim Crow period was also right around the time many of the veterans from the war were dying off, it was when the Union memorials also were going up.

Many of these are from the 1890's to the 1920's which puts the youngest (15 in 1865) vets around 45 to 75 years old.

...but Union side had something to be proud of.

Who cares? They won! You need to deal with that! Settled hash. Who gives two fucks who owned slaves or what socks the union was during reconstruction. It happened deal with it. And America used slaves. Deal with it. No black people wer or are slaves today and the blunbellys aren't roaming the streets tar and feathering rebs.

Yea who cares if White Supremacists descend on a town about to remove a confederate statue. WHO CARES! Settled hash.

 

[Crixus]

Yea, we need to tell them how awesome they are...that will disengage their persecution complex, make them bored and they will turn into decent, tolerant folk.

No, you ignore them, and like most human endeavors a large part of the movement is made up of the not 100% committed. If they are ignored, many will lose interest and you will left with the dullard impotent core.

Half of the confederate monuments were put up in the heyday of Jim Crow period. When you ignore them, they do not lose interest and they do not go away - they breed and multiply.

The early Jim Crow period was also right around the time many of the veterans from the war were dying off, it was when the Union memorials also were going up.

Many of these are from the 1890's to the 1920's which puts the youngest (15 in 1865) vets around 45 to 75 years old.

So confederate vets were heros post war and then memorialized after they died... I don't see how that is a counter arguement to the accusation that their memorialization was a fuck you to Washington and the equality efforts of that time. We saw the post war protests for decades after the war through Jim Crow, the hanging of the confederate flag, and memorials like these! Is plain as day obvious.

With that said, the story and context needs to be considered for each situation. A blanket policy to rip down all confederate monuments is not a smart approach. For example, I've heard compelling arguments about General Lee who was more than just a confederate General. He played a big roll in unifying the nation after the war, and was actually an advocate NOT to erect confederate statues. His story has more historical context than a Jefferson Davis or other general who was pretty much only known as a confedrate war general.

It comes down to how the community wants to represent their values and history through the symbolism and memorials in their cities. This can evolve in time

The whole concept after the war was to re-join the country. If allowing the former confederates to honor their dead and their failed leaders was part of that, then it was a small price to pay. To tear down the monuments to that process all of a sudden because of butt hurt is an affront to that process.

If people want to put signs up by each memorial explaining why they suck that's fine, but tearing them down because of the bitchy mewling of a bunch of spoiled asshole kids is crazy.

First, you look at their organization. They aren't an organization (ANTIFA) I can't find a website for them in this country, only the U.K. If you look, and I'll include a link so you can see, the rhetoric is the exact same as that as the conspiracy nuts who are regularly quoted by nut jobs on both ends. Being what it is, when you beat ANTIFA on the news in this country it's typically the same people you see at G20 summits burning shit. They even say so in their rhetoric on Facebook, twitter and such. Anyway, if you see ANTIFA you can bet BLM was there, code pink and the rest. This is why the beanie and masks. No Democrat dare disavow them because they fear losing more black votes as
well as white people who are "down with the cause". As for the rhetoric. Let's compare them some,

Alleged ANTIFT hand book.



The Antifa Handbook - 1A

"Antifascists argue that after the horrors of chattel slavery and the Holocaust, physical violence against white supremacists is both ethically justifiable and strategically effective. We should not, they argue, abstractly assess the ethical status of violence in the absence of the values and context behind it. Instead, they put forth an ethically consistent, historically informed argument for fighting Nazis before it’s too late."


Hmmm, so it's by their own admission a fact they exist only to cause trouble.

That said, for the purposes of the discussion, does Antifa have an issue with Jews? Yes, it's plainly on all their rhetoric that's on he well in photos and literature. Can you agree about that?

Where do you see evidence that they have issues with the Jews? Their literature and actions show anti-hate efforts against white supremacists and Nazis. That would show that they are trying and stand up for blacks and Jews.

I don't like their tactics so I won't stand up for the violence and destruction, but they do appear to support the anti-hate causes in their mission statement.

Please explain better why you think they are anti Jew and supporting the white supremacists causes like you claimed.

Gotta hold there. Doing the eclipse with my girl child. Way more fun gen this!

Glad to see you have your priorities straight... I'm fogged in :-/

Hey, real fast, interesting and informative article. Personally, I would be more inclined to listening to a guy or gal who was not in a mask and breaking stuff. Good article though.



Analysis | Who are the antifa?


But what is antifa? Where did it come from? Militant anti-fascist or “antifa” (pronounced ANtifa) is a radical pan-leftist politics of social revolution applied to fighting the far right. Its adherents are predominantly communists, socialists and anarchists who reject turning to the police or the state to halt the advance of white supremacy. Instead they advocate popular opposition to fascism as we witnessed in Charlottesville.

I think that description falls in line from what i've seen in their actions. They seem to be pretty motivated to make some noise and overpower anything that they perceive as hateful and discriminatory.

I've said many times that I do not condone that behavior as I think our freedom of speech is a very sacred thing, even horrible speech. There are better and more civil ways to deal with that opposition in our society. I think these ANTIFA people see themselves as vigilantes of a sort, fighting the good fight. Its like the guy that punches the school yard bully for picking on the little kid. I don't condone the violence and think there are better solutions, however, I understand the motivation to stand up to and fight against the "evil"

Well, it seems that my googlizer is stumped. I can only point to the news coverage. Watch the signes they carry. These are impetuous children. Nothing more. Worse, they are bushing a message of hate. Hitler was sick of sitting around waiting for things to work out. His old job always pretty much what ANTIFA and the groups who participate do. Also, I would have to get BLM props. I see less of their signes at these gang fights.

 

[Pumpkin Row]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

You're just upset that he held everyone responsible for their actions. The counter-protesters(ANTIFA) were there for a fight, and when they're not trying to shut down other protests, they're rioting, burning private property, and assaulting random people. The fact that you think that they're totally blameless speaks volumes about you. You should be proud of the president for condemning all guilty parties, while also making sure that he didn't making a sweeping judgment of everyone present. You're just butthurt that the leftists there were lumped in with the other thugs, where they belong.