Racist groups vs Free Speech, i've converted...

[BlueGin]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

Also, somebody wearing a shirt is very different than a statue or monument in a public square. You don't see statues of Hitler or his generals or a park named Nazi park in Germany. Doesn't that just make sense?

It's the same angst that is created, the same butt hurt. The difference I don't feel the need to force my butt hurt on everyone else by banning Che shirts.

And while there are no Hitler memorials, there are monuments to German Soldiers who fell during the war.

German War Memorials

You don't see the difference between the soldiers and the generals/leaders? Come on Marty, think on this one for a few minutes.

Generals Lee and Sherman held the same exact views on slaves...even though they were on different sides of the war.

And after the slaves were freed they lived in refugee camps where many died in mass due to disease and hunger. Infact it was thought that they would die out as a race in the USA. Even the abolitionists largely lost interest in them once they were free.

 

[bripat9643]

maybe not.

but it makes less sense to force people into how to think and feel.

i've never known that to work well in a situation like this.

the bin laden comment is just stupid, sorry.

Why is the bin laden comment stupid and why is the hitler analogy not relevant?

because we don't put people who attack us up in a memorial. we never have. the comment itself is more snark than something even close to being considered.

and the hitler / nazi comparisons are done for effect, not reality. while you can point to some groups out there who are in fact defined by those words, those words however are applied to anyone these days who defend the right over the group and do not want those rights taken away in a mob mentality form of "justice"

we lose far more than we gain when we do that.

"We don't put people who attack us up in a memorial"... what do you think Stonewall Jackson, Robert E Lee and crew did during the civil war?

They didn't attack us. Lincoln invaded the Confederacy. That's the fact you can't seem to get through your skull.

You're defending the confederacy now?! Unbelievable... That damn Lincoln, what a traitor.

I've always defended them from the point of who was in the wrong with respect to the war. Yeah, slavery was evil, but it was the law of the land. If the Republicans didn't like it, they should have amended the Constitution to end it.

 

[bripat9643]

It's the same angst that is created, the same butt hurt. The difference I don't feel the need to force my butt hurt on everyone else by banning Che shirts.

And while there are no Hitler memorials, there are monuments to German Soldiers who fell during the war.

German War Memorials

You don't see the difference between the soldiers and the generals/leaders? Come on Marty, think on this one for a few minutes.

you can't take down what someone else values simply because you have different values. all this bullshit started with "we must remove the confed flag from gov grounds!!!"

the left promised that's all they wanted. the right said bullshit.

who was right now?

germany has a holocaust museum. we should at least preserve our past, good and bad, so we know who we are and where we came from. we can't erase the things we don't like or sooner or later none of us will be here.

I'm fine with preserving our past. Put the confederate statues into museums where there can be education and context around them. It really doesn't make logical sense to have so many statues of confederate generals around our communities. Why are we celebrating and glorifying these people in public areas?

Should we erect a bin laden statue by the twin towers to remind people of history?

If you ask me, the statues that should go in the museums are the ones of the war criminals Lincoln, Grant and Sherman. They slaughtered 850,000 Americans.

Good thing nobody is asking you

I'm telling you anyway, and don't think you can stop me from speaking my peace by beating me with a club.

 

[Slade3200]

I disagree, that might be the short term play that they will attempt to capitalize on but in the long term it is removing a source of power and supremacy that exists. Many of those statues were constructed during the Jim Crow era as a check to the blacks that the values of the confederacy still exist. Like I said in the OP whether you take them down or minimize them with "counter" statues of civil rights leaders, I think either is a smart move to combat the hate.

The only power being provided is to the white power idiots, giving them a cause and a platform. Most of these were built in the early 1900's, well after the South "won" via plessey. What most of them are related to is the dying off of the Civil War Veterans, most of whom would have been in their 60's-80's between 1900 and 1920, when a lot of these monuments went up. Even the ones that went up in the 60's can be related to the 100th anniversaries of the start and the end of the Civil War

Why not just put up more memorials to Civil Rights leaders and let people see them all? .

Really?? You don't think that Jim Crow had anything to do with it?

Well, why would it? Far as I'm concerned confederate soldiers were just guys like you and me. If we had been called to "defend our country" we would have done it. I see the statues much the sameAs the Vietnam memorial. Matter of fact, I am 100% on bored with moving the statues. Take them to a place like Gettysburg.

The confederate generals and soldiers took arms AGAINST our country. They were not fighters for our country. It was Treason and an act of rebellion to succeed from the union. It was centered around the issue of slavery which they did not want to give up. These were not heros... They were racist traitors.

Wrong. The did nothing but defend their country. Lincoln is the one who took up arms against states of the union. What he did fits the official definition of treason.

Slavery was the law of the land at the time. If they didn't like it, tough. They should have passed a Constitutional amendment to end it.

Ever heard of Fort Sumter?? Learn your history dude

 

[bripat9643]

The only power being provided is to the white power idiots, giving them a cause and a platform. Most of these were built in the early 1900's, well after the South "won" via plessey. What most of them are related to is the dying off of the Civil War Veterans, most of whom would have been in their 60's-80's between 1900 and 1920, when a lot of these monuments went up. Even the ones that went up in the 60's can be related to the 100th anniversaries of the start and the end of the Civil War

Why not just put up more memorials to Civil Rights leaders and let people see them all? .

Really?? You don't think that Jim Crow had anything to do with it?

Well, why would it? Far as I'm concerned confederate soldiers were just guys like you and me. If we had been called to "defend our country" we would have done it. I see the statues much the sameAs the Vietnam memorial. Matter of fact, I am 100% on bored with moving the statues. Take them to a place like Gettysburg.

The confederate generals and soldiers took arms AGAINST our country. They were not fighters for our country. It was Treason and an act of rebellion to succeed from the union. It was centered around the issue of slavery which they did not want to give up. These were not heros... They were racist traitors.

Wrong. The did nothing but defend their country. Lincoln is the one who took up arms against states of the union. What he did fits the official definition of treason.

Slavery was the law of the land at the time. If they didn't like it, tough. They should have passed a Constitutional amendment to end it.

Ever heard of Fort Sumter?? Learn your history dude

Ft Sumter is within the borders of South Carolina and Union soldiers were trespassing there until they were rightfully evicted.

 

[Slade3200]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

Also, somebody wearing a shirt is very different than a statue or monument in a public square. You don't see statues of Hitler or his generals or a park named Nazi park in Germany. Doesn't that just make sense?

It's the same angst that is created, the same butt hurt. The difference I don't feel the need to force my butt hurt on everyone else by banning Che shirts.

And while there are no Hitler memorials, there are monuments to German Soldiers who fell during the war.

German War Memorials

You don't see the difference between the soldiers and the generals/leaders? Come on Marty, think on this one for a few minutes.

Generals Lee and Sherman held the same exact views on slaves...even though they were on different sides of the war.

And after the slaves were freed they lived in refugee camps where many died in mass due to disease and hunger. Infact it was thought that they would die out as a race in the USA. Even the abolitionists largely lost interest in them once they were free.

You left out the fact that Sherman fought for the Union and defended his country while Lee rebelled against his country. They call that a traitor

 

[BlueGin]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

Also, somebody wearing a shirt is very different than a statue or monument in a public square. You don't see statues of Hitler or his generals or a park named Nazi park in Germany. Doesn't that just make sense?

Besides, most of the retards who where Che tshirts don't have a clue who he was, or why it was just desserts when his ass was killed. Charles Manson is another one I don't get the infatuation with.

One of their other hero's came out against their bullshit. That's gotta hurt

Noam Chomsky Crushes Left's Antifa Narrative

 

[Slade3200]

Really?? You don't think that Jim Crow had anything to do with it?

Well, why would it? Far as I'm concerned confederate soldiers were just guys like you and me. If we had been called to "defend our country" we would have done it. I see the statues much the sameAs the Vietnam memorial. Matter of fact, I am 100% on bored with moving the statues. Take them to a place like Gettysburg.

The confederate generals and soldiers took arms AGAINST our country. They were not fighters for our country. It was Treason and an act of rebellion to succeed from the union. It was centered around the issue of slavery which they did not want to give up. These were not heros... They were racist traitors.

Wrong. The did nothing but defend their country. Lincoln is the one who took up arms against states of the union. What he did fits the official definition of treason.

Slavery was the law of the land at the time. If they didn't like it, tough. They should have passed a Constitutional amendment to end it.

Ever heard of Fort Sumter?? Learn your history dude

Ft Sumter is within the borders of South Carolina and Union soldiers were trespassing there until they were rightfully evicted.

So now our Millitary bases belong to the states? And I guess the fact that the confederate army fired the first shot on the Union is not important at all. You're facts are all out of whack man. Why are you standing up for the confederates?

 

[bripat9643]

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

Also, somebody wearing a shirt is very different than a statue or monument in a public square. You don't see statues of Hitler or his generals or a park named Nazi park in Germany. Doesn't that just make sense?

It's the same angst that is created, the same butt hurt. The difference I don't feel the need to force my butt hurt on everyone else by banning Che shirts.

And while there are no Hitler memorials, there are monuments to German Soldiers who fell during the war.

German War Memorials

You don't see the difference between the soldiers and the generals/leaders? Come on Marty, think on this one for a few minutes.

Generals Lee and Sherman held the same exact views on slaves...even though they were on different sides of the war.

And after the slaves were freed they lived in refugee camps where many died in mass due to disease and hunger. Infact it was thought that they would die out as a race in the USA. Even the abolitionists largely lost interest in them once they were free.

You left out the fact that Sherman fought for the Union and defended his country while Lee rebelled against his country. They call that a traitor

No, Sherman invaded former states of the union that had seceded. He defended nothing. He invaded people who were minding their own business. Lee's country was the confederacy. He owed nothing to the union mass murderers.

Read the definition of treason in the Constitution. Lincoln, Grant and Sherman are guilty. Lee isn't.

 

[bripat9643]

Well, why would it? Far as I'm concerned confederate soldiers were just guys like you and me. If we had been called to "defend our country" we would have done it. I see the statues much the sameAs the Vietnam memorial. Matter of fact, I am 100% on bored with moving the statues. Take them to a place like Gettysburg.

The confederate generals and soldiers took arms AGAINST our country. They were not fighters for our country. It was Treason and an act of rebellion to succeed from the union. It was centered around the issue of slavery which they did not want to give up. These were not heros... They were racist traitors.

Wrong. The did nothing but defend their country. Lincoln is the one who took up arms against states of the union. What he did fits the official definition of treason.

Slavery was the law of the land at the time. If they didn't like it, tough. They should have passed a Constitutional amendment to end it.

Ever heard of Fort Sumter?? Learn your history dude

Ft Sumter is within the borders of South Carolina and Union soldiers were trespassing there until they were rightfully evicted.

So now our Millitary bases belong to the states? And I guess the fact that the confederate army fired the first shot on the Union is not important at all. You're facts are all out of whack man. Why are you standing up for the confederates?

The property belonged to the Union, just as Subic Bay once belonged to the United States. However, Subic Bay is within the borders of the Philippines and Ft Sumter is within the borders of South Carolina. If the government of SC tells Union soldiers to get the hell out, then they better damn well do it, just as we had to get the hell out of Subic Bay when the government of the Philippines demanded it.

And, no, it doesn't matter that SC fired the first shot, just as it doesn't matter if you fire the first shot at some home invader when he climbs through your window.

 

[BlueGin]

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

Also, somebody wearing a shirt is very different than a statue or monument in a public square. You don't see statues of Hitler or his generals or a park named Nazi park in Germany. Doesn't that just make sense?

It's the same angst that is created, the same butt hurt. The difference I don't feel the need to force my butt hurt on everyone else by banning Che shirts.

And while there are no Hitler memorials, there are monuments to German Soldiers who fell during the war.

German War Memorials

You don't see the difference between the soldiers and the generals/leaders? Come on Marty, think on this one for a few minutes.

Generals Lee and Sherman held the same exact views on slaves...even though they were on different sides of the war.

And after the slaves were freed they lived in refugee camps where many died in mass due to disease and hunger. Infact it was thought that they would die out as a race in the USA. Even the abolitionists largely lost interest in them once they were free.

You left out the fact that Sherman fought for the Union and defended his country while Lee rebelled against his country. They call that a traitor

So then racism really isn't an issue for you idiots and your faux outrage on this issue of the civil war.

It's just an excuse to riot...period.

 

[Dale Smith]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

I disagree, that might be the short term play that they will attempt to capitalize on but in the long term it is removing a source of power and supremacy that exists. Many of those statues were constructed during the Jim Crow era as a check to the blacks that the values of the confederacy still exist. Like I said in the OP whether you take them down or minimize them with "counter" statues of civil rights leaders, I think either is a smart move to combat the hate.

When the communist left finally targets the biggest racist of the Civil War era (Albert Pike).....then I might take them seriously.

Right now, all I see is this being used as way to agitate and create ill will. Albert Pike's statute is prominently displayed in Washington, DC. Pike was a confederate general and a founder of the KKK. He is the highest degee'd freemason ever in the United States. His book "Morals and Dogma" is considered the bible of Scottish Rite freemasonry and he is an admitted Luciferian. Why hasn't Sharpton or Jackson protested? Because they are apart of the "Boule' society and 33rd degee'd Scottish Rite freemasons....that's why. Pike took the torch from Giuseppe Mazzini (The "M" in mafia stands for Mazzini) who was the leader of the Illuminati in 1872. Read about the three world wars of Albert Pike and the formation of a zionist state in Palestine and tell me that these wars and events haven't been fomented.

 

[Slade3200]

Also, somebody wearing a shirt is very different than a statue or monument in a public square. You don't see statues of Hitler or his generals or a park named Nazi park in Germany. Doesn't that just make sense?

It's the same angst that is created, the same butt hurt. The difference I don't feel the need to force my butt hurt on everyone else by banning Che shirts.

And while there are no Hitler memorials, there are monuments to German Soldiers who fell during the war.

German War Memorials

You don't see the difference between the soldiers and the generals/leaders? Come on Marty, think on this one for a few minutes.

Generals Lee and Sherman held the same exact views on slaves...even though they were on different sides of the war.

And after the slaves were freed they lived in refugee camps where many died in mass due to disease and hunger. Infact it was thought that they would die out as a race in the USA. Even the abolitionists largely lost interest in them once they were free.

You left out the fact that Sherman fought for the Union and defended his country while Lee rebelled against his country. They call that a traitor

No, Sherman invaded former states of the union that had seceded. He defended nothing. He invaded people who were minding their own business. Lee's country was the confederacy. He owed nothing to the union mass murderers.

Read the definition of treason in the Constitution. Lincoln, Grant and Sherman are guilty. Lee isn't.

I don't know where you get your history from but I'd try a different source

 

[iceberg]

you can't take down what someone else values simply because you have different values. all this bullshit started with "we must remove the confed flag from gov grounds!!!"

the left promised that's all they wanted. the right said bullshit.

who was right now?

germany has a holocaust museum. we should at least preserve our past, good and bad, so we know who we are and where we came from. we can't erase the things we don't like or sooner or later none of us will be here.

I'm fine with preserving our past. Put the confederate statues into museums where there can be education and context around them. It really doesn't make logical sense to have so many statues of confederate generals around our communities. Why are we celebrating and glorifying these people in public areas?

She we erect a bin laden statue by the twin towers to remind people of history?

maybe not.

but it makes less sense to force people into how to think and feel.

i've never known that to work well in a situation like this.

the bin laden comment is just stupid, sorry.

Why is the bin laden comment stupid and why is the hitler analogy not relevant?

because we don't put people who attack us up in a memorial. we never have. the comment itself is more snark than something even close to being considered.

and the hitler / nazi comparisons are done for effect, not reality. while you can point to some groups out there who are in fact defined by those words, those words however are applied to anyone these days who defend the right over the group and do not want those rights taken away in a mob mentality form of "justice"

we lose far more than we gain when we do that.

"We don't put people who attack us up in a memorial"... what do you think Stonewall Jackson, Robert E Lee and crew did during the civil war?

the civil war was a family fight. an outsider is different to me. i get what you're saying, i just don't agree.

 

[Slade3200]

Also, somebody wearing a shirt is very different than a statue or monument in a public square. You don't see statues of Hitler or his generals or a park named Nazi park in Germany. Doesn't that just make sense?

It's the same angst that is created, the same butt hurt. The difference I don't feel the need to force my butt hurt on everyone else by banning Che shirts.

And while there are no Hitler memorials, there are monuments to German Soldiers who fell during the war.

German War Memorials

You don't see the difference between the soldiers and the generals/leaders? Come on Marty, think on this one for a few minutes.

Generals Lee and Sherman held the same exact views on slaves...even though they were on different sides of the war.

And after the slaves were freed they lived in refugee camps where many died in mass due to disease and hunger. Infact it was thought that they would die out as a race in the USA. Even the abolitionists largely lost interest in them once they were free.

You left out the fact that Sherman fought for the Union and defended his country while Lee rebelled against his country. They call that a traitor

So then racism really isn't an issue for you idiots and your faux outrage on this issue of the civil war.

It's just an excuse to riot...period.

It's pretty simple, we have historical figures that represented our country and we have those who attacked our country. The confederates rebelled against our country. Why would you memorialize generals like that to the magnitude that they have been? It's a pretty obvious fuck you to the blacks

 

[Slade3200]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

I disagree, that might be the short term play that they will attempt to capitalize on but in the long term it is removing a source of power and supremacy that exists. Many of those statues were constructed during the Jim Crow era as a check to the blacks that the values of the confederacy still exist. Like I said in the OP whether you take them down or minimize them with "counter" statues of civil rights leaders, I think either is a smart move to combat the hate.

When the communist left finally targets the biggest racist of the Civil War era (Albert Pike).....then I might take them seriously.

Right now, all I see is this being used as way to agitate and create ill will. Albert Pike's statute is prominently displayed in Washington, DC. Pike was a confederate general and a founder of the KKK. He is the highest degee'd freemason ever in the United States. His book "Morals and Dogma" is considered the bible of Scottish Rite freemasonry and he is an admitted Luciferian. Why hasn't Sharpton or Jackson protested? Because they are apart of the "Boule' society and 33rd degee'd Scottish Rite freemasons....that's why. Pike took the torch from Giuseppe Mazzini (The "M" in mafia stands for Mazzini) who was the leader of the Illuminati in 1872. Read about the three world wars of Albert Pike and the formation of a zionist state in Palestine and tell me that these wars and events haven't been fomented.

I don't know much about this Pike guy but he sounds like a big piece of shit!

 

[Tresha91203]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

Also, somebody wearing a shirt is very different than a statue or monument in a public square. You don't see statues of Hitler or his generals or a park named Nazi park in Germany. Doesn't that just make sense?

It's the same angst that is created, the same butt hurt. The difference I don't feel the need to force my butt hurt on everyone else by banning Che shirts.

And while there are no Hitler memorials, there are monuments to German Soldiers who fell during the war.

German War Memorials

You don't see the difference between the soldiers and the generals/leaders? Come on Marty, think on this one for a few minutes.

The US went to great lengths to reunite, including the mothers of soldiers killed by Confederates. The Union, while still raw, recognized what you do not. If those most affected by the horrors of that war chose to forgive and accept Confederates back into the Union (granting them full military honors), who the hell are we, 150 years removed, to shit all over their tremendous sacrifice?

 

[Steve_McGarrett]

The North (Federal Government) funded and built a lot of those confederate monuments as a good gesture in an attempt at reunification with southerners.

 

[jasonnfree]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

by taking down those statues and removing those flags you are basically playing into their persecution complex and giving them nothing but fodder for recruiting more people to their cause.

There is no reason to remove statues or monuments other than some people just feel a sense of butt hurt when they think or look at them. It's the same revulsion I feel when i walk past some nimrod with a Che shirt on. However I don't feel a need to rip the shirt off or yell at them about it. I sneer, shake my head, and KEEP WALKING.

I disagree, that might be the short term play that they will attempt to capitalize on but in the long term it is removing a source of power and supremacy that exists. Many of those statues were constructed during the Jim Crow era as a check to the blacks that the values of the confederacy still exist. Like I said in the OP whether you take them down or minimize them with "counter" statues of civil rights leaders, I think either is a smart move to combat the hate.

When the communist left finally targets the biggest racist of the Civil War era (Albert Pike).....then I might take them seriously.

Right now, all I see is this being used as way to agitate and create ill will. Albert Pike's statute is prominently displayed in Washington, DC. Pike was a confederate general and a founder of the KKK. He is the highest degee'd freemason ever in the United States. His book "Morals and Dogma" is considered the bible of Scottish Rite freemasonry and he is an admitted Luciferian. Why hasn't Sharpton or Jackson protested? Because they are apart of the "Boule' society and 33rd degee'd Scottish Rite freemasons....that's why. Pike took the torch from Giuseppe Mazzini (The "M" in mafia stands for Mazzini) who was the leader of the Illuminati in 1872. Read about the three world wars of Albert Pike and the formation of a zionist state in Palestine and tell me that these wars and events haven't been fomented.

I don't know much about this Pike guy but he sounds like a big piece of shit!

Both sides do bad things during wars. The troops and the officers just take orders from above. Many of the troops on both sides back then were drafted into the army, they had no choice, so I don't think we can condemn them. Also, we weren't there and we just rely on what historians passed down to us to judge what happened. We may never know what happened but a large part of that war back then had other causes besides slavery like tariffs and such.

 

[RodISHI]

It's been a crazy week and i've engaged in many heated discussions about the events of Charlottesville. I have to admit that i've been greatly conflicted about my anti-racist feelings and my support of free speech. I flirted dangerously close in many discussions to promoting the shutdown of speech for white supremacist groups. I saw them as threats, conveyers of hate speech and given their history which has resulted in millions of deaths I was ok with suppressing their speech and shutting down their causes by whatever means necessary. But, I've had a change of heart.

I think we can be smarter than that and not empower these assholes to strip us of our freedoms. It is a slippery slope once you start suppressing speech. We have legal censorship in a variety of areas which i'm fine with, but shutting down groups from holding rallies, having websites and protesting is only going to lead to bad things. Note that I in no way support any provocation of violence or destruction resulting from rallies or protests. If that happens then shut them down immediately and make arrests.

I would promote fighting these douchebags by ignoring them and minimizing them in a SMART way. Don't lower yourself to fight with them and fuel their cause. Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views. Or construct monuments and statues of civil rights leaders next to the confederate statues and tell the story about how we prevailed and fought agains their hate, and WE WON. Ignore their rallies and don't give them the exposure or attention that they crave. Speak louder and stronger for equality.

I still think that the Presidents comments that minimized the ugliness of the Nazi's and White Supremacists were wildly inappropriate. He tried to spread the blame to the left for the anti-protests and it deluded his message of condemnation that should have been crystal clear in opposition of the hate groups. He should have spread the message in a better way to fight against it. I don't want to relitigate Trumps actions in this OP but I did want to share my change of opinion and open up a discussion about productive ways to move forward that combats the hate and preserves our right of free speech.

^^^ The American Taliban alive and well. Mind your own area and leave others alone with their own historical monuments. If the people in those areas desire to remove those monuments or not use their flags let them do it and if in public areas they can do it by vote. If not you are no better than a Taliban, Nazi or Islamist asshole yourself.

I never said anything different than that... you should slow down before you jump on the judgements. Taliban? Give me a break

These are not all your words? "Take away their statues and flags that empower them in public forums and show them that our communities outright reject their hateful views."

Yes those are my words, so what?? I'm not talking about destroying statues in an anarchist way. We have a legal and legitimate way of doing it through petitions and public forums and city council meetings. Get loud and get active and rally support and either put those statues in a museum or melt them down or build counter statues. Its a better method to fight against the Nazis and KKK than throwing piss at them.

Those statutes and flags belong to the people and their communities. If you don't live there and are not a member of that community what is it to you? You are sounding more and more like a fascist who wants to force government upon states.

The confederate generals and soldiers took arms AGAINST our country. They were not fighters for our country. It was Treason and an act of rebellion to succeed from the union. It was centered around the issue of slavery which they did not want to give up. These were not heros... They were racist traitors.

Actually the confederates were tired of being raped through taxes.
European and New England capitalists and investors controlled the north's shipping on the Great Lakes but had no railway system to transport their goods en masse overland other than mule trains and river barges. Northern states wanted the wealth of the south. Then something happened in Washington that Southern states referred to as the "Tariff of Abominations." It was "a protective tariff passed by the Congress of the United States on May 19, 1828, designed to protect industry in the northern United States. Enacted during the presidency of John Quincy Adams, it was labeled the Tariff of Abominations by its southern detractors because of the effects it had on the antebellum Southern economy. It set a 62% tax on 92% of all imported goods." Fort Sumter was a tariff collection facility. The overland railroad did not commence until the 1860's with the Central Pacific Railroad, The Northern Industrialists wanted a war to use as an excuse to get the South's resources for pennies on the dollar. They began a campaign about 1830 that would influence the common people of the North and create enmity that would allow them to go to war against the South. These Northern Industrialists brought up a morality claim against the South alleging the evils of slavery. The Northern Hypocrites conveniently neglected to publicize the fact that 5 New England States ( Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and New York ) were primarily responsible for the importation of most of the slaves from Africa to America. These states had both private and state owned fleets of ships. Essentially, Abraham Lincoln as President wanted a war with the south but wanted to blame the south for firing the first shot. I guess it could be said he pissed on the original constitution governing a constitutional republic of independent states and he got his war. BY the way, it is claimed Robert E. Lee, a West Point Graduate was Lincoln's first choice as General for Lincoln's Union. Lee declined the south was destroyed beyond reconstruction and here we are today. I can understand why Lee's so-called descendants might conceivably want the statues down. He brought death and destruction down on his own people. But let's not forget it was Lincoln who refused to meet with a southern delegation to workout a peaceful solution before the war. And that is precisely what led to the south seceding from the Union. Slavery is a BS claim that had absolutely nothing to do with starting the Civil War.