Religion and Ethics - The topic of this USMB Discussion is an "oxymoron"

[Boss]

I don't know of an example of religion that promotes war for power and wealth. Most of the one's I'm familiar with don't care about power and wealth at all.

Islam and Christianity, to name just two.

Sorry, I don's see that in either religion. The teachings of Jesus Christ are completely contrarian to that viewpoint. His message is Love and Forgiveness. Radical fundamental Islamists believe they are to do battle against enemies of Allah. Again, not defending any religion's beliefs, but neither are advocates of war for power and wealth.

You've simply not made your point. I know that probably made you feel good to post it... yeah... lay the smackdown on religion! But it's not even backed up with common sense.

 

[cnelsen]

But I will tell you right now that ethics is way more important than belief in an imaginary god.

Believing in an imaginary god doesn't make you religious. It just makes you wrong. Moreover, religion and ethics occupy the same realm--how we treat one another--and are therefore appropriately included under the same forum.

Ques: what does that mean "follow your morals"? Do you mean something like "go with your gut" or "act on impulse"?

I agree with your first two sentences. However, the third is the issue at hand. They do not occupy the same realm. They are opposites of each other.

You cannot have a religion that has not heavily disregarded ethics and morals. Because the only reason they are still a religion is that they killed, raped, and/or enslaved non-believers. They forced people into believing their religion, by threat of death or torture.

To me, that is not ethical or moral...

I believe it is a mistake to tar religion with the sins of the priests in the same way it would be a mistake to tar politics with the crimes of tyrants. Religion is not responsible for the Inquisition any more than Science is responsible for Hiroshima or Art is responsible for Bolshevism.

Religion was directly responsible for the Inquisition. It was the reason why it was done.

Science was not directly responsible for any act of aggression. It gave people means to be aggressive, but that could be discovering copper, bronze, iron, steel, gunpowder, etc...

But it was the religions that made people use these materials, that came through science, against other people and other religions...

Science never said, "Hey, let's use what we discovered to kill all the non-scientists!"

It was religion(s) that used science for their "spiritual" advancement. And they only used it so they could make and use those weapons to kill everybody that disagreed with them, and then get get rich and powerful.

"God" does not need swords or guns or aggression to show people the truth.

But religions definitely do.

And therefore they need science to keep building better weapons to defeat the weapons that the other religions are making.

It's disgusting...

The responsibility for evil acts lies with the actors, regardless of whatever motives they claim. If I kill you to steal your uranium, science is not to blame. If I kill you because you are Catholic, religion is not to blame. In both cases, the culpability is mine.

 

[yiostheoy]

Anytime someone posts a flaming spam troll thread I iggy them right away. Problem solved.

 

[cnelsen]

I don't know of an example of religion that promotes war for power and wealth. Most of the one's I'm familiar with don't care about power and wealth at all.

Islam and Christianity, to name just two.

You mean Islam and Judaism.

 

[Mudda]

I don't know of an example of religion that promotes war for power and wealth. Most of the one's I'm familiar with don't care about power and wealth at all.

Islam and Christianity, to name just two.

Sorry, I don's see that in either religion. The teachings of Jesus Christ are completely contrarian to that viewpoint. His message is Love and Forgiveness. Radical fundamental Islamists believe they are to do battle against enemies of Allah. Again, not defending any religion's beliefs, but neither are advocates of war for power and wealth.

You've simply not made your point. I know that probably made you feel good to post it... yeah... lay the smackdown on religion! But it's not even backed up with common sense.

Islam is about conquering the whole world and making it muslim.
And if Christianity isn't about power and wealth, then someone forgot to tell the Pope.

 

[koshergrl]

No, it's not am oxymoron, how retarded. The title means this is the forum to discuss religion, or ethics.

 

[Mudda]

I don't know of an example of religion that promotes war for power and wealth. Most of the one's I'm familiar with don't care about power and wealth at all.

Islam and Christianity, to name just two.

You mean Islam and Judaism.

Judaism is more about being a victim. They love being victims.

 

[Mudda]

But I will tell you right now that ethics is way more important than belief in an imaginary god.

Believing in an imaginary god doesn't make you religious. It just makes you wrong. Moreover, religion and ethics occupy the same realm--how we treat one another--and are therefore appropriately included under the same forum.

Ques: what does that mean "follow your morals"? Do you mean something like "go with your gut" or "act on impulse"?

I agree with your first two sentences. However, the third is the issue at hand. They do not occupy the same realm. They are opposites of each other.

You cannot have a religion that has not heavily disregarded ethics and morals. Because the only reason they are still a religion is that they killed, raped, and/or enslaved non-believers. They forced people into believing their religion, by threat of death or torture.

To me, that is not ethical or moral...

I believe it is a mistake to tar religion with the sins of the priests in the same way it would be a mistake to tar politics with the crimes of tyrants. Religion is not responsible for the Inquisition any more than Science is responsible for Hiroshima or Art is responsible for Bolshevism.

Religion was directly responsible for the Inquisition. It was the reason why it was done.

Science was not directly responsible for any act of aggression. It gave people means to be aggressive, but that could be discovering copper, bronze, iron, steel, gunpowder, etc...

But it was the religions that made people use these materials, that came through science, against other people and other religions...

Science never said, "Hey, let's use what we discovered to kill all the non-scientists!"

It was religion(s) that used science for their "spiritual" advancement. And they only used it so they could make and use those weapons to kill everybody that disagreed with them, and then get get rich and powerful.

"God" does not need swords or guns or aggression to show people the truth.

But religions definitely do.

And therefore they need science to keep building better weapons to defeat the weapons that the other religions are making.

It's disgusting...

The responsibility for evil acts lies with the actors, regardless of whatever motives they claim. If I kill you to steal your uranium, science is not to blame. If I kill you because you are Catholic, religion is not to blame. In both cases, the culpability is mine.

If the coran tells mooslims to kill non-believers and they do it, then religion is to blame.

 

[cnelsen]

I don't know of an example of religion that promotes war for power and wealth. Most of the one's I'm familiar with don't care about power and wealth at all.

Islam and Christianity, to name just two.

Sorry, I don's see that in either religion. The teachings of Jesus Christ are completely contrarian to that viewpoint. His message is Love and Forgiveness. Radical fundamental Islamists believe they are to do battle against enemies of Allah. Again, not defending any religion's beliefs, but neither are advocates of war for power and wealth.

You've simply not made your point. I know that probably made you feel good to post it... yeah... lay the smackdown on religion! But it's not even backed up with common sense.

Islam is about conquering the whole world and making it muslim.
And if Christianity isn't about power and wealth, then someone forgot to tell the Pope.

The comment was regarding a religion, not the head of one branch of a religion. There is nothing in Christianity qua Christianity that advocates the accumulation of power and wealth. Quite the opposite, actually.

Judaism, on the other hand, is chock full of it:

Power

If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

Deuteronomy 13:13
​

When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee. And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

Deuteronomy 20:11
​

Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.

Deuteronomy 20:15​

​

Wealth

Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Deuteronomy 23:20​

For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee.

Deuteronomy 28:13​

​

 

[Mudda]

I don't know of an example of religion that promotes war for power and wealth. Most of the one's I'm familiar with don't care about power and wealth at all.

Islam and Christianity, to name just two.

Sorry, I don's see that in either religion. The teachings of Jesus Christ are completely contrarian to that viewpoint. His message is Love and Forgiveness. Radical fundamental Islamists believe they are to do battle against enemies of Allah. Again, not defending any religion's beliefs, but neither are advocates of war for power and wealth.

You've simply not made your point. I know that probably made you feel good to post it... yeah... lay the smackdown on religion! But it's not even backed up with common sense.

Islam is about conquering the whole world and making it muslim.
And if Christianity isn't about power and wealth, then someone forgot to tell the Pope.

The comment was regarding a religion, not the head of one branch of a religion. There is nothing in Christianity qua Christianity that advocates the accumulation of power and wealth. Quite the opposite, actually.

Judaism, on the other hand, is chock full of it:

Power

If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

Deuteronomy 13:13
​

When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee. And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

Deuteronomy 20:11
​

Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.

Deuteronomy 20:15​

Wealth

Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Deuteronomy 23:20​

For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee.

Deuteronomy 28:13​

Deuteronomy is part of the Christians' old testament.

 

[cnelsen]

If the coran tells mooslims to kill non-believers and they do it, then religion is to blame.

If the witch doctor tells the young lovers to eat this poisonous frog for greater fertility and they do, and they die, are their deaths the result of Medicine? Can we blame Science for their demise? Of course not. Likewise, if the adherents of a false and primitive belief system calling itself "religion"--like Islam or Judaism--tells its adherents to slaughter non-adherents, it is illegitimate to blame "Religion".

 

[cnelsen]

I don't know of an example of religion that promotes war for power and wealth. Most of the one's I'm familiar with don't care about power and wealth at all.

Islam and Christianity, to name just two.

Sorry, I don's see that in either religion. The teachings of Jesus Christ are completely contrarian to that viewpoint. His message is Love and Forgiveness. Radical fundamental Islamists believe they are to do battle against enemies of Allah. Again, not defending any religion's beliefs, but neither are advocates of war for power and wealth.

You've simply not made your point. I know that probably made you feel good to post it... yeah... lay the smackdown on religion! But it's not even backed up with common sense.

Islam is about conquering the whole world and making it muslim.
And if Christianity isn't about power and wealth, then someone forgot to tell the Pope.

The comment was regarding a religion, not the head of one branch of a religion. There is nothing in Christianity qua Christianity that advocates the accumulation of power and wealth. Quite the opposite, actually.

Judaism, on the other hand, is chock full of it:

Power

If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

Deuteronomy 13:13
​

When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee. And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

Deuteronomy 20:11
​

Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.

Deuteronomy 20:15​

Wealth

Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Deuteronomy 23:20​

For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee.

Deuteronomy 28:13​

Deuteronomy is part of the Christians' old testament.

The Old Testament is a part of the Judaic Talmud. It contains nothing of Christian doctrine, nor does any Christian believe it does. It is included as a kind of backdrop to Christ, wrongly, in my view, but it is. Christians should eject the Old Testament and its derivatives from the West.

 

[cnelsen]

Judaism is more about being a victim. They love being victims.

No, they love playing the victim.

 

[Mudda]

If the coran tells mooslims to kill non-believers and they do it, then religion is to blame.

If the witch doctor tells the young lovers to eat this poisonous frog for greater fertility and they do, and they die, are their deaths the result of Medicine? Can we blame Science for their demise? Of course not. Likewise, if the adherents of a false and primitive belief system calling itself "religion"--like Islam or Judaism--tells its adherents to slaughter non-adherents, it is illegitimate to blame "Religion".

Islam tells its followers to kill infidels. That's the fault of the mooslim religion.

 

[Mudda]

Islam and Christianity, to name just two.

Sorry, I don's see that in either religion. The teachings of Jesus Christ are completely contrarian to that viewpoint. His message is Love and Forgiveness. Radical fundamental Islamists believe they are to do battle against enemies of Allah. Again, not defending any religion's beliefs, but neither are advocates of war for power and wealth.

You've simply not made your point. I know that probably made you feel good to post it... yeah... lay the smackdown on religion! But it's not even backed up with common sense.

Islam is about conquering the whole world and making it muslim.
And if Christianity isn't about power and wealth, then someone forgot to tell the Pope.

The comment was regarding a religion, not the head of one branch of a religion. There is nothing in Christianity qua Christianity that advocates the accumulation of power and wealth. Quite the opposite, actually.

Judaism, on the other hand, is chock full of it:

Power

If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again. And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

Deuteronomy 13:13
​

When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it. And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee, then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee. And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against thee, then thou shalt besiege it: And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword: But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.

Deuteronomy 20:11
​

Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.

Deuteronomy 20:15​

Wealth

Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Deuteronomy 23:20​

For the LORD thy God blesseth thee, as he promised thee: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, but thou shalt not borrow; and thou shalt reign over many nations, but they shall not reign over thee.

Deuteronomy 28:13​

Deuteronomy is part of the Christians' old testament.

The Old Testament is a part of the Judaic Talmud. It contains nothing of Christian doctrine, nor does any Christian believe it does. It is included as a kind of backdrop to Christ, wrongly, in my view, but it is. Christians should eject the Old Testament and its derivatives from the West.

Real Christians embrace the OT.

 

[Mudda]

Judaism is more about being a victim. They love being victims.

No, they love playing the victim.

The must have like being persecuted and killed by Germans so much that they set up shop in the middle of people who want to kill every last one. Seems like they like that sort of thing, being victims.

 

[cnelsen]

Judaism is more about being a victim. They love being victims.

No, they love playing the victim.

The must have like being persecuted and killed by Germans so much that they set up shop in the middle of people who want to kill every last one. Seems like they like that sort of thing, being victims.

Jews prospered in Germany like nowhere else, but, Jews being Jews, cannot seem to help themselves and betrayed Germany in WWI in return for the Zionist goal of a Jewish state in Palestine. Still, Jews were not harmed, but they were resented after that, and for good reason.

http://www.kevinalfredstrom.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/benjamin_freedman_warns_america.mp3

 

[ding]

Judaism is more about being a victim. They love being victims.

No, they love playing the victim.

Why do you say that? Have you ever been a victim? Did you enjoy it?

 

[cnelsen]

Judaism is more about being a victim. They love being victims.

No, they love playing the victim.

Why do you say that? Have you ever been a victim? Did you enjoy it?

PLAYING the victim.

 

[ding]

Judaism is more about being a victim. They love being victims.

No, they love playing the victim.

Why do you say that? Have you ever been a victim? Did you enjoy it?

PLAYING the victim.

Do you love PLAYING the victim?