Zone1 Religion is not needed if a "golden rule" is valued

[hobelim]

No amount of your fake theology can alter my reality. I love God and God loves me. This love has produced an incredible amount of joy, happiness, peace, successful relationships and material wealth. I have chosen the better portion and it will not be taken from me. Especially not by such a fake charlatan like you.

Oh No! Woe is me! What must I do to be saved mr smarty pants? Throw my mind in the trash, go to church, get down on my knees to worship a matzo MADE BY HUMAN HANDS, and eat it?

Then I could be as intelligent as you are pretending that you don't notice reality? Very tempting!

And all for a nominal service charge? (10% of my income for life, weekly spare change, the ability to be rational, and all of my children)

Not by the hair on my chinny chin chin......

 

[ding]

Alrighty then. If any of that is true why does it make you act like an ass? Some salvation you got

It's true. That's rich that you think I'm the one acting like an ass.

 

[ding]

Yes, very powerful. Your ability to deny reality is almost supernatural. Very interesting, but stupid

Your opinion carries no weight with me.

 

[ding]

Oh No! Woe is me! What must I do to be saved mr smarty pants? Throw my mind in the trash, go to church, get down on my knees to worship a matzo MADE BY HUMAN HANDS, and eat it?

Then I could be as amazing as you are pretending that you don't notice reality? Sounds easy!

And all for a nominal service charge? (10% of my income for life, weekly spare change, the ability to be rational, and all of my children)

Not by the hair on my chin chin chin......

You'd have to set aside your pride and biases. I don't see that happening until you reach rock bottom.

 

[hobelim]

You'd have to set aside your pride and biases.

You might want to tell that you yourself. You're the one who posted this gem after all, remember?

"all you are really doing is showing me how intellectually inferior you are to me"

Now thats rich!

 

[Donald H]

But it shows these are ancient accounts which originated from the same source more than a thousand years before Moses recorded them in writing.

There are ancient accounts that have nothing in common but 'dust' or dirt or earth. And then there's Darwin and evolution which we both accept. So you have to somehow make your dustman theory work with that.

This is where you need to depend on the church's free pass that allows you to not ask questions and not think. That's what Christians call 'faith'.

 

[hobelim]

There are ancient accounts that have nothing in common but 'dust' or dirt or earth. And then there's Darwin and evolution which we both accept. So you have to somehow make your dustman theory work with that.

This is where you need to depend on the church's free pass that allows you to not ask questions and not think. That's what Christians call 'faith'.

Christians call it faith and others call it cognitive dissonance which makes believers easy prey for every sort of foul and loathsome beast and bird. A brilliant, however evil, 4th century Roman con

 

[Donald H]

So rather than your silly beliefs, these accounts were how ancient man passed down knowledge thousands of years ago only for you to mock them today. You have the intellectual capacity of an ant, my friend.

It takes intellectual capacity to understand, or at least try to understand how these stories came about.

A movie I watched many years ago demonstrated one possibility. A small airplane flew over somewhere in Africa where an isolated tribe was located and one of the people in the plane threw out an empty Coke bottle. A tribesman below picked up the bottle, took it to his tribe and placed on an altar to worship as a gift from heaven/the sky.

In any case, all that aside, then we both have to come back to our belief in Darwinian evolution.

If I recall correctly the movie was Von Danikan's, "The Gods Must be Crazy"

 

[Donald H]

Christians call it faith and others call it cognitive dissonance which makes believers easy prey for every sort of foul and loathsome beast and bird. A brilliant, however evil, 4th century Roman con

Thanks for your opinion. I think that it's difficult to say anything questioning of their beliefs on account of them not having anywhere to go but to turn to anger when they get evolution dropped on them.

Except maybe the few who reject evolution?

 

[hobelim]

Thanks for your opinion. I think that it's difficult to say anything questioning of their beliefs on account of them not having anywhere to go but to turn to anger when they get evolution dropped on them.

Its just sad.

According to ding, turning to a cracker to worship and eat for spiritual life was a step up for him.

Maybe he really has found paradise in a garbage dump, Gehenna, where addled crap discarded by higher intelligences smolder which would make him a vulture, vermin, rat, mouse, a creepy thing that creeps, parasite, fly, or maggot. Either way, not kosher. Biblically speaking, of course.

Damn funny those ancient Hebrew nomads.

Except maybe the few who reject evolution?

And these dimwits have been trying to rule the world. Is it any wonder why its all fucked up?

 

[Donald H]

Its just sad.

According to ding, turning to a cracker to worship and eat for spiritual life was a step up for him.

Maybe he really has found paradise in a garbage dump, Gehenna, where addled crap discarded by higher intelligences smolder which would make him a vulture, vermin, rat, mouse, a creepy thing that creeps, parasite, fly, or maggot. Either way, not kosher. Biblically speaking, of course.

Damn funny those ancient Hebrew nomads.




And these dimwits have been trying to rule the world. Is it any wonder why its all fucked up?

Whenever I say the 'few' who don't accept evolution, I say 'the few' with little confidence. I suspect that it's still close to half of Americans who just don't want to say.

They are granted permission by their church's advice not to need to say.

I get your point when you call them dimwits but it deserves an explanation. It fact some Christians are highly intelligent, but how can that be?

My explanation is that they were indoctrinated into believing the nonsense as children and that makes it nearly impossible for them to escape. It's the equivalent of a baby duckling being imprinted on the fox as it's mother. It will never escape alive.

What other explanation could there be?
Only those who don't accept Darwinian evolution could possibly have another reason for believing. To them it's all true!

 

[hobelim]

My explanation is that they were indoctrinated into believing the nonsense as children and that makes it nearly impossible for them to escape. It's the equivalent of a baby duckling being imprinted on the fox as it's mother. It will never escape alive.

I agree. I would compare it to toilet training. How hard would it be for an adult to crap their pants intentionally, yet if they live long enough they will crap their pants whether they want to or not.

What other explanation could there be?

Cognitive dissonance. A person in that constant state of mental discord whether they claim to be at peace or not becomes unaware of whats right in front of their noses making them suckers for almost every con while disbelieving well known and widely accepted scientific facts about life that contradict irrational and degrading 'beliefs' that they were toilet trained into accepting out of fear of real and imaginary suffering in the fires of hell unaware that that discord is the fires of hell.

The shame of it all is that being restored to sanity, (rising from the dead), even if they never were sane, (a "living being"), is as easy or as difficult as it is for even the least intelligent, least educated, even the most gullible person on the planet to be honest with themselves and others.

That is the good news.....the gospel truth.

 

[Donald H]

I agree. I would compare it to toilet training. How hard would it be for an adult to crap their pants intentionally, yet if they live long enough they will crap their pants whether they want to or not.



Cognitive dissonance. A person in that constant state of mental discord whether they claim to be at peace or not becomes unaware of whats right in front of their noses making them suckers for almost every con while disbelieving well known and widely accepted scientific facts about life that contradict irrational and degrading 'beliefs' that they were toilet trained into accepting out of fear of real and imaginary suffering in the fires of hell unaware that that discord is the fires of hell.

The shame of it all is that being restored to sanity, (rising from the dead), even if they never were sane, (a "living being"), is as easy or as difficult as it is for even the least intelligent, least educated, even the most gullible person on the planet to be honest with themselves and others.

I don't dispute your theory of cognitive dissonance but I still need an explanation for why they can slip downward into that state of mind.
Maybe a question to ask would be whether they came to accept the nonsense as adults or as children. I'm going to start by assuming that very, very few adult non-believers become believers when they're adults. But children do because they will naturally believe parents or adults they trust.

Child abuse? Quite obviously but the system makes it legal.

 

[hobelim]

I don't dispute your theory of cognitive dissonance but I still need an explanation for why they can slip downward into that state of mind.

Some people have a desperate need to be accepted by other people, even if those other people are insane, and so become insane to fit in and reap the benefits of a society that values insanity.

I think they are just cowards seeking a smooth and easy life and end up with the exact opposite.

"A curse on the man who trusts in man and looks for support from humankind." Jeremiah 17:5

Child abuse? Quite obviously but the system makes it legal.

I suppose it was 'just' to allow every religious claim to exist until the truth came to light. Now what? The way I see it child abuse is child abuse and fraud is fraud. A religious con is still a con.

Religion should give no legal shelter for abuse or fraud of any kind, not even for its professed beliefs which irrefutably defile and contaminate the human mind and perverts and degrades a persons entire experience of Life, denying them sanity which in many ways is worse than murder

Look what happened to ding. The effect religion has had on his soul should terrify everyone.

 

[Donald H]

Some people have a desperate need to be accepted by other people, even if those other people are insane, and so become insane to fit in and reap the benefits of a society that values insanity.

Yes, supposing that they can't find acceptance elsewhere and granted, that has been true in the past and is still at least partially true.

I think they are just cowards seeking a smooth and easy life and end up with the exact opposite.

So their religion provides them with the smooth and easy life? I'll have to think about that theory for a while. Do you want to elaborate on the claim?

I suppose it was just to allow every religious persuasion to exist until the truth came to light. Now what? The way I see it child abuse is child abuse and fraud is fraud. A religious con is still a con.

I'm completely convinced but it doesn't hurt to give them hope on getting their message heard. We don't want them to give up and stop providing ammunition, so to speak.

Religion should give no legal shelter, even for its professed beliefs, which irrefutably defile and contaminate the human mind and perverts and degrades a persons entire experience of Life.

Yes, but experiments to outlaw it haven't really worked that well. Even China's advanced system has to move slowly against destructive religious beliefs and dogma, on account of the people's indoctrination. And so even though it's harming a society, it has to be dealt with patiently.

How to stop it? I think that China could start by working on remedies that protect the children, as a top priority. I would say that it's a threat to any great nation's social progress.

Just remember though that force is not socially responsible change.

 

[hobelim]

So their religion provides them with the smooth and easy life? I'll have to think about that theory for a while. Do you want to elaborate on the claim?

I said that is what they are seeking, a smooth easy life, even if thats not what they get.

Just remember though that force is not socially responsible change.

Agreed. I see no reason to force anyone to stop believing whatever they want. I just believe in informed consent which would require any child to first receive a basic education before being exposed to religious indoctrination. If they want to go down that rabbit hole after they learn about history, science, biology, math, literature, literary expressions, etc., they should be allowed to.

If people want to pray to a block of wood they should feel free to do that yet people who do that should be disqualified from any position of authority that requires the public trust. They are liars and hypocrites, easy prey for any con artist or special interest that has enough cash to own them

Maybe it should be restricted learning for adults, like porn used to be, and for the same reasons.

 

[BreezeWood]

XXXX

the lies of moses much the same as the heredity idolatry of abraham are what those people chose for their own prosperity, gratuity than what may have been moral lessons that would be universal than their own self interest.

bing, were the chinese jewish also and built a temple and the burning bush spoke to them and believe they were chosen as yourself - as special people ... and madeup phony 10 commandments claimed etched in the heavens.

 

[Donald H]

I said that is what they are seeking, a smooth easy life, even if thats not what they get.

O.k., I'm still working with the idea, but so far nothing has clicked in that explains the cognitive dissonance under which they suffer. At least I agree that is why they act like zombies when challenged.

Agreed. I see no reason to force anyone to stop believing whatever they want. I just believe in informed consent which would require any child to first receive a basic education before being exposed to religious indoctrination.

Well, if the basic education came first then that could save most of the children. And so isn't it ironic that one of America's most potent political divides is public education! And the laws that prevent teaching the straight up facts on evolution.

If they want to go down that rabbit hole after they learn about history, science, biology, literature and literary expressions, they should be allowed to.

Agree! But they won't choose to go down any of the Christian rabbit holes with the intent of becoming believers. And their common sense will enable them to see the comedy routine clearly. Then even a child of 4 will be immune.

If people want to pray to a block of wood they should feel free to do that yet people who do that should be disqualified from any position of authority that requires the public trust. They are liars.

Maybe that's an obtainable goal?
But how can it ever be established that they are the liars and evolution is not lies.
Again I can only imagine that China's system will be the first to conquer the religion problem. It's destructive of progress.
China can work to cause embarrassment to the believers, without resorting to force. That might even work in America.
I think we are starting to see results with our ding. His embarrassment over believing such hogwash is coming out of him as anger.

Maybe it should be restricted learning for adults, like porn used to be, and for the same reasons.

The embarrassment factor plays a big part of people hiding their porn in a black bag. On a bright note, they also hide their religion. If I have a social gathering of friends in my house, nobody talks about it. Most of them have a bit of it at least but they know they have to keep it to themselves.

 

[hobelim]

O.k., I'm still working with the idea, but so far nothing has clicked in that explains the cognitive dissonance under which they suffer. At least I agree that is why they act like zombies when challenged.

Cognitive dissonance occurs when they are trying to maintain contradictory ideas in their head at the same time. For instance when they hear from some conman that Jesus claimed to be God, and then profess to believe, and then hear that someone was walking the earth who claimed to be God in the flesh they would never believe knowing that person is at best mentally ill if not evil.

Getting someone to accept absurd contradictory beliefs has predicable mind numbing effects....

 

[hobelim]

Maybe that's an obtainable goal?
But how can it ever be established that they are the liars and evolution is not lies.

Does anyone really need proof that someone who claims to be saved yet is doing what their own holy book clearly teaches is sinful and evil is a liar? Aren't their words and deeds proof enough?