Republicans..The real allies of African Americans

[JakeStarkey]

Jroc, you posting large amounts of info does not do anything when you ignore the questions. Here they are again.

What are vouchers going to do? How do we get them in place? How do we guarantee that "real history" is taught?

Answer these questions specifically one after another.

 

[mdn2000]

Jake, on real history being taught, first we must throw out all the books by Chomsky and Zinn and fire all the teachers who have taught Zinn and Chomsky.

 

[JakeStarkey]

mdn2000, thank you for answering part of the question. Were you required to read Zinn and Chomsky in college? Did you read the Bible, the Quran, Hitler, Lenin, Madison, Rousseau, Thoreau, Emerson, Roosevelt (both of them), Lincoln, Marshall, Dreiser, Hart, James, Wolfe, Shelley, Byron, Keats (!), Chaucer, Shakespeare, Jonson, Ibsen, Proust, Pratchett, and hundreds of other writers? You really think suppression of writers' works is the way to go, when I think, in all honesty, if your writers cannot combat their opponents, something is wrong with your point. Life is a market place of ideas in competition, yet you wish to act like a follower of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Pinochet, Diaz.

 

[Martin35]

Abe Lincoln took the black man a far as any Republican could, even with the reparations enacted after his death, they have chosen to be the Democrats burden at this juncture in time,,, and as we all know they are the better for it.

 

[mdn2000]

mdn2000, thank you for answering part of the question. Were you required to read Zinn and Chomsky in college? Did you read the Bible, the Quran, Hitler, Lenin, Madison, Rousseau, Thoreau, Emerson, Roosevelt (both of them), Lincoln, Marshall, Dreiser, Hart, James, Wolfe, Shelley, Byron, Keats (!), Chaucer, Shakespeare, Jonson, Ibsen, Proust, Pratchett, and hundreds of other writers? You really think suppression of writers' works is the way to go, when I think, in all honesty, if your writers cannot combat their opponents, something is wrong with your point. Life is a market place of ideas in competition, yet you wish to act like a follower of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Pinochet, Diaz.

Jake, I did not go to College, from what I read, and learn, I understand that Chomsky and Zinn are used to teach.

If you think Zinn is the material to be used to teach history I can effectively make the case that Zinn is not scholarly material to be used to teach.

I wish to act like Hitler, Hitler and the National Socialist joined with the Communist party of Germany, Hitler with the cooperation of Gemany and many others in Europe murdered woman and children, how do you equate Germans actions to stating that Zinn has written poor books with no educational value, that Zinn and Chomsky's work is discredited by historical scholars.

Zinn and Chomsky fail on their own, as pointed out everywhere, to compare not teaching garbage to Hitler shows how little understanding of history Jake has after reading Zinn and Chomsky.

I advocate reading books, I read books, I will pass on to others what I read, and have done so repeatedly.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Then go to college, learn the discipline of history and of pedagogy, and if you still don't like Zinn, don't use him. I gave a call to a friend over at the U, and he says no one he knows there uses Zinn or Chomsky as models for teaching, but if they did, who could possibly care?

Only you are equating Zinn and Chomsky with Hitler, which is an incredible stretch of the imagination.

"Zinn and Chomsky fail on their own, as pointed out everywhere, to compare not teaching garbage to Hitler shows how little understanding of history Jake has after reading Zinn and Chomsky." That makes absolutely no sense, mdn2000. Now please: point out where the two "fail on their own, as pointed out everywhere. . .". Does every scholar condemn the inadequacy of the two, or does one POV condemn them?

Historical research involves the objective collecting, sifting, and interpreting of a representative number of artificats to reach broad conclusions. In other words, facts are not twisted to a preconceived philosophy; the philosophy, however, is twisted to fit the facts.

I hope you understand now what I wrote earlier and try to misinterpret, deliberately or not, what I am saying.

 

[Jroc]

You guys are going off topic here, the education I was referring to is primary education, not so much secondary. This is were we need to start with education reform. Get it?

 

[mdn2000]

Jake, on real history being taught, first we must throw out all the books by Chomsky and Zinn and fire all the teachers who have taught Zinn and Chomsky.

mdn2000, thank you for answering part of the question. Were you required to read Zinn and Chomsky in college? Did you read the Bible, the Quran, Hitler, Lenin, Madison, Rousseau, Thoreau, Emerson, Roosevelt (both of them), Lincoln, Marshall, Dreiser, Hart, James, Wolfe, Shelley, Byron, Keats (!), Chaucer, Shakespeare, Jonson, Ibsen, Proust, Pratchett, and hundreds of other writers? You really think suppression of writers' works is the way to go, when I think, in all honesty, if your writers cannot combat their opponents, something is wrong with your point. Life is a market place of ideas in competition, yet you wish to act like a follower of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Pinochet, Diaz.

Then go to college, learn the discipline of history and of pedagogy, and if you still don't like Zinn, don't use him. I gave a call to a friend over at the U, and he says no one he knows there uses Zinn or Chomsky as models for teaching, but if they did, who could possibly care?

Only you are equating Zinn and Chomsky with Hitler, which is an incredible stretch of the imagination.

"Zinn and Chomsky fail on their own, as pointed out everywhere, to compare not teaching garbage to Hitler shows how little understanding of history Jake has after reading Zinn and Chomsky." That makes absolutely no sense, mdn2000. Now please: point out where the two "fail on their own, as pointed out everywhere. . .". Does every scholar condemn the inadequacy of the two, or does one POV condemn them?

Historical research involves the objective collecting, sifting, and interpreting of a representative number of artificats to reach broad conclusions. In other words, facts are not twisted to a preconceived philosophy; the philosophy, however, is twisted to fit the facts.

I hope you understand now what I wrote earlier and try to misinterpret, deliberately or not, what I am saying.

As always Jake, when I must address your posts I must address about a thousand twists and turns. Personally I think you love being a prick.

I love that when Jake addresses a statement he does so by asking ten questions that must be answered.

Do I believe if writers works be surpressed? Jake do you think lies should be taught as history, yes or no.

Now you state something is wrong with my point if a writer can not combat their opponents. My point has nothing to with what a writer writes. My point is Zinn is not scholarly material to be used to teach history. My point does not fail because of what a writer has written and if that said writer can answer his critics. That is kind of a crazy way to support Chomsky and Zinn.

Life is a market place of ideas in competition, yet you wish to act like a follower of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Pinochet, Diaz

Wow, stating books by Chomsky and Zinn should not be taught because they fail to to be factual is equated to acting as Hitler. Why compare me to Hitler, I simply want the truth taught as history, nothing more. That is not Chomsky or Zinn.

Does every scholar condemn the inadequacy of the two, or does one POV condemn them?

The fact is simple, Chomsky and Zinn are not historic, scholarly works and only one point of view accepts Chomsky or Zinn's work as being historically accurate. They are both at best, hate directed against the USA.

If you wish to learn about Chomsky and Zinn you should pay for that with your money. If you are so familiar with the accuracy of Zinn and Chomsky, quote a few paragraphs and point out the accuracy.

Chomsky and Zinn should not be taught as history, they should be taught as examples of poor scholarly work, as being of "one point of view", they should be taught as examples of people who hate the USA, its that simple.

Jake, so let me get this straight, you beleive Chomsky and Zinn should be used to teach history.

 

[Jroc]

Don't hijack the Thread!! You guys can start you're own damn thread. I wanted to keep this clear you guys are just mucking it up.

 

[Jroc]

You guys are going off topic here, the education I was referring to is primary education, not so much secondary. This is were we need to start with education reform. Get it?

Just because you started the thread does not mean you understand the topic, here your state the topic is primary education, I thought you were addressing who the allies of African Americans are, Zinn writes about this, are you ignorant of this or do you simply not want Zinn discussed. Further Zinn is read and used by many primary education professionals. Zinn is relevant to the topic.

Instead of being a prick about your thread and Private Messaging me with your bitching you should consider yourself lucky enough I posted in your "thread".

Have it your way, Jake, we can have this discussion in any other thread and I am more than happy to have this discussion.

A thread of Jroc's does not need our participation, no problem Jroc. I will simply ignore your thread.

All right. I apologize I'm not really familiar with Zinn but try and make it pertain to African Americans specifically

 

[JakeStarkey]

You guys are going off topic here, the education I was referring to is primary education, not so much secondary. This is were we need to start with education reform. Get it?

How? You going to empower the fed even more to mandate such reform? The best way to get the reform you want is to get the fed and state teacher education agencies out of the way. The problem with that will be why they got into it in the first place; separate but equal facilities based on race. We have similar problems now in that we have to make sure the leading families' and ranking school district officials' kids are not group into the same classrooms year after year in order to get superior education. Three superintendents ago fought us on that, and it took more than a year to force him to leave. We also lost three principals and a handful of senior administrators over the concept that their kids were no more special than those of the poorest families.

If you know how to return reform to the local level without the local elites trying to take over, let me know.

 

[JakeStarkey]

mdn2000 made a response. I answered clearly and succinctly. He then tried to dodge and then said we were messing up Jroc's thread. Whatever. mdn2000 does not like answering questions, but that is how discussions are developed. (1) What lies are being taught as history, mdn2000? (2) Do you agree that America is best served as a market place of competing ideas? (3) Who says Zinn is not to be taught in history classes? (4) Can you point to exactly where I support Chomsky and Zinn?

mdn2000, as usual, makes wide, sweeping accusations that he can't support. I don't have to refute them until you support your points. So, shut up, mdn2000, until you can offer specific evidence for your points.

Jroc, my apologies.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Jroc, why to apologize mdn2000 when he has no idea what he is talking about when it comes to Zinn.

 

[mdn2000]

Zinn, its simple Jake, if we are to have a discussion, do you state that Zinn's work should be used to teach history or not.

 

[JakeStarkey]

No, mdn2000, that is where you are screwing up.

You have made the assertion that Zinn's work is bad for teaching history. Now you have to give your evidence for that assertion before you ask anyone to refute it.

Get going there, buddie, you got some work to do before you get back to us.

 

[elvis]

 

[mdn2000]

Jake, on real history being taught, first we must throw out all the books by Chomsky and Zinn and fire all the teachers who have taught Zinn and Chomsky.

Jake, this is my statement, pure and simple.

Do you have anything that refutes this other than to compare me to Hitler.

Jake, do you support teaching Zinn's work as history.

Its a simple yes or no question, you have refused to answer this question. If you wish to engage me in a discussion I wish to know what you think of what we discuss, if you do not care to offer your opinion on Zinn that is your right.

Jake, why avoid a simple question? I am will easily answer any question you ask, provided your willing to do the same.

Jake, do you support teaching the works of Howard Zinn in a class on history. Yes or no.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Jake, on real history being taught, first we must throw out all the books by Chomsky and Zinn and fire all the teachers who have taught Zinn and Chomsky.

Jake, this is my statement, pure and simple.

Do you have anything that refutes this other than to compare me to Hitler.

Jake, do you support teaching Zinn's work as history.

Its a simple yes or no question, you have refused to answer this question. If you wish to engage me in a discussion I wish to know what you think of what we discuss, if you do not care to offer your opinion on Zinn that is your right.

Jake, why avoid a simple question? I am will easily answer any question you ask, provided your willing to do the same.

Jake, do you support teaching the works of Howard Zinn in a class on history. Yes or no.

mdn2000, you have offered a mere assertion. That means nothing unless you give evidence for it, before you can ask others to refute it. Don't you understand this. You have lost the discussion if you don't do this. I don't have to offer anything at all until you offer proof for your assertion. You don't have any, do you?

 

[Jroc]

You guys are going off topic here, the education I was referring to is primary education, not so much secondary. This is were we need to start with education reform. Get it?

How? You going to empower the fed even more to mandate such reform? The best way to get the reform you want is to get the fed and state teacher education agencies out of the way. The problem with that will be why they got into it in the first place; separate but equal facilities based on race. We have similar problems now in that we have to make sure the leading families' and ranking school district officials' kids are not group into the same classrooms year after year in order to get superior education. Three superintendents ago fought us on that, and it took more than a year to force him to leave. We also lost three principals and a handful of senior administrators over the concept that their kids were no more special than those of the poorest families.

If you know how to return reform to the local level without the local elites trying to take over, let me know.

We've got to start somewhere. Yes more local contro,l but there must be competition and the teachers must be held accountable for their success or failure. The teachers unions are just as elitist as the politicians, these kids are stuck in the same failing schools it’s a never-ending cycle.

 

[BrianH]

I have dismissed the justifications you gave on the earlier points, none of which you were able to carry. But I don't care about that.

What are vouchers going to do? How do we get them in place? How do we guarantee that "real history" is taught?

I am not attacking. I want to know how we do this.

Real history is taught...but mostly in college. The problem is getting people who don't value education, to value education and send their kids to college.