S. Carolina bar posts ban on concealed guns, calls those who carry "d-bags"

[nodoginnafight]

Like the NYPD?

NYPD: 9 shooting bystander victims hit by police gunfire | Fox News

Who do you think has more training with firearms - the NYPD or the average gun owner?

The argument that cops accidentally shoot bystanders doesn't come close to even suggesting that basically untrained drunk idiots would somehow be better.


.

In most places I have lived, and it's especially true out here, the average gun owner has FAR more training and experience with their firearm than the police. There are three Reno police, five Carson City SO, two Capitol Police, and around 10 Washoe County SO, who I would consider competent with their weapons.

The rest of the LEO's impression of their guns is they take up space on their belts, and weigh too much.

Previous poster was right - a lot of people do confuse target practice with training.

 

[Little-Acorn]

BTW, that bar owner is completely within his rights to put up that sign and call various partons anything he wants.

And the patrons are free to find another bar. It's a private business, and there are plenty of others.

The bar owner is obviously one of those deluded nutcases I taked about earlier. There's no law against deluded nutcases owning bars. Nor should there be.

 

[bucs90]

Like the NYPD?

NYPD: 9 shooting bystander victims hit by police gunfire | Fox News

Who do you think has more training with firearms - the NYPD or the average gun owner?

The argument that cops accidentally shoot bystanders doesn't come close to even suggesting that basically untrained drunk idiots would somehow be better.


.

In most places I have lived, and it's especially true out here, the average gun owner has FAR more training and experience with their firearm than the police. There are three Reno police, five Carson City SO, two Capitol Police, and around 10 Washoe County SO, who I would consider competent with their weapons.

The rest of the LEO's impression of their guns is they take up space on their belts, and weigh too much.

You're making a ridiculous argument, that cannot be proven or tested. Your random drug dealer is an average gun owner too.

You're right that many cops see their guns as just another tool on a belt. Because the fascination phase has long past. They've trained with it, worked with it, etc, etc, and are over it.

Just an example:

A new cop in SC goes through 13 weeks of Police Academy, 3 of which are all firearms training, then are required to go through 1 week a year of in-service training.

A CWP holder has to go through an 8 hour class, and a quick qualification against a paper target with no stress. Then never have to train again.

Which is "more"?

You'd need to show proof that all those "average gun owners" seek out some sort of advanced training beyond plinking cans in the backyard or hitting a paper target at the gun range..........and that all the cops do not do any training, or practice, outside of work.

Otherwise, you're saying "A person who has never had any official training....has more training than someone who has documented official in-depth training".

Which, of course, is silly, since it cannot be proven.

 

[Little-Acorn]

BTW, is that particular bar owner ready for the liability he'll incur if he insists on his patrons disarming themselves, and then some genuine whacko comes in and starts shooting people?

Since he insists the patrons give up their self-defense ability, is he ready to pay the hospital costs, death benefits, lawsuit costs that can result from an incident?

 

[Dr Grump]

BTW, that bar owner is completely within his rights to put up that sign and call various partons anything he wants.

And the patrons are free to find another bar. It's a private business, and there are plenty of others.

The bar owner is obviously one of those deluded nutcases I taked about earlier. There's no law against deluded nutcases owning bars. Nor should there be.

Actually, there probably are laws against people with mental illnesses owning bars. I think you need a liquor license and being a nutcase doesn't fit the bill. Maybe he's just some normal guy who is sick to death of the US gun culture supported by immature men with small wieners.....

 

[westwall]

Who do you think has more training with firearms - the NYPD or the average gun owner?

The argument that cops accidentally shoot bystanders doesn't come close to even suggesting that basically untrained drunk idiots would somehow be better.


.

In most places I have lived, and it's especially true out here, the average gun owner has FAR more training and experience with their firearm than the police. There are three Reno police, five Carson City SO, two Capitol Police, and around 10 Washoe County SO, who I would consider competent with their weapons.

The rest of the LEO's impression of their guns is they take up space on their belts, and weigh too much.

You're making a ridiculous argument, that cannot be proven or tested. Your random drug dealer is an average gun owner too.

You're right that many cops see their guns as just another tool on a belt. Because the fascination phase has long past. They've trained with it, worked with it, etc, etc, and are over it.

Just an example:

A new cop in SC goes through 13 weeks of Police Academy, 3 of which are all firearms training, then are required to go through 1 week a year of in-service training.

A CWP holder has to go through an 8 hour class, and a quick qualification against a paper target with no stress. Then never have to train again.

Which is "more"?

You'd need to show proof that all those "average gun owners" seek out some sort of advanced training beyond plinking cans in the backyard or hitting a paper target at the gun range..........and that all the cops do not do any training, or practice, outside of work.

Otherwise, you're saying "A person who has never had any official training....has more training than someone who has documented official in-depth training".

Which, of course, is silly, since it cannot be proven.

Wrong on all counts. "Average" gun owners far outnumber gangbangers and drug dealers and when push comes to shove the "average" gun owners have always won. Just ask the 58 gangbangers who died, vs. the 8 or so Korean shop owners, during the King riots in LA. Also just look at the rate of justifiable homicides for citizens vs. police, the civilians kill more than twice as many bad guys as the cops do.

 

[Dr Grump]

BTW, is that particular bar owner ready for the liability he'll incur if he insists on his patrons disarming themselves, and then some genuine whacko comes in and starts shooting people?

Since he insists the patrons give up their self-defense ability, is he ready to pay the hospital costs, death benefits, lawsuit costs that can result from an incident?

You could say that about any place of work. There are plenty of places where firearms are not allowed.

What an asinine argument...

 

[bucs90]

Who do you think has more training with firearms - the NYPD or the average gun owner?

The argument that cops accidentally shoot bystanders doesn't come close to even suggesting that basically untrained drunk idiots would somehow be better.


.

In most places I have lived, and it's especially true out here, the average gun owner has FAR more training and experience with their firearm than the police. There are three Reno police, five Carson City SO, two Capitol Police, and around 10 Washoe County SO, who I would consider competent with their weapons.

The rest of the LEO's impression of their guns is they take up space on their belts, and weigh too much.

Previous poster was right - a lot of people do confuse target practice with training.

Yep. Some don't get that. To put it in perspective:

Who would probably be a better basketball player:
Guy who shoots hoops in his driveway
Guy who goes through a training camp with a college hoops team

Who would be a better football player:
Guys who play toss in the backyard
Guys who go through college football camp

That's basically the target practice vs training question.

But, there are many great classes for civilians that are in-depth, intense, and great training on par with what police and military offer. But, they're expensive and require time away from work.

And even then, its a bad idea to bring a gun to a bar, much less pull it.

 

[TruthSeeker56]

Well, look at this. This bar is near Clemson University, a college bar. Its in the upper state of SC, a very conservative area, near the Greenville Metro area halfway between Atlanta and Charlotte.

This courageous, small business owning American practice HIS right and his free speech.

SC passed a law allowing people to carry guns into bars. Booze and bullets, they mix, right?

Anyway, bars can post signs banning CWP holders from packing heat (you know, "just in case" they need to stand their ground by the pool tables).

This guy's sign not only bans them, but quotes: “NO CONCEALED WEAPONS ALLOWED. If you are such a loser that you feel a need to carry a gun with you when you go out, I do not want your business. Douchebag.”

He couldn't have said it any better. I support the right to own a gun, and keep it at your home and in your car. But I do NOT want to be next to some right wing idiot who needs to pack heat every time he goes to a bar or movie or walk in the park. Those folks are just not the type of people I want to be around, and God Bless America for allowing this brave small business owner to practice his right to keep those idiots out of his business.

If I had a kid that went to Clemson, I'd hope they'd choose this bar as their choice watering hole (hey, they're gonna go out and drink, face it)

I wonder how "Bucs90" would feel if this owner banned HOMOSEXUALS from "doing business" at his bar, instead of CWP gun owners.

Typical cherry-picking liberal clap-trap.

 

[bucs90]

In most places I have lived, and it's especially true out here, the average gun owner has FAR more training and experience with their firearm than the police. There are three Reno police, five Carson City SO, two Capitol Police, and around 10 Washoe County SO, who I would consider competent with their weapons.

The rest of the LEO's impression of their guns is they take up space on their belts, and weigh too much.

You're making a ridiculous argument, that cannot be proven or tested. Your random drug dealer is an average gun owner too.

You're right that many cops see their guns as just another tool on a belt. Because the fascination phase has long past. They've trained with it, worked with it, etc, etc, and are over it.

Just an example:

A new cop in SC goes through 13 weeks of Police Academy, 3 of which are all firearms training, then are required to go through 1 week a year of in-service training.

A CWP holder has to go through an 8 hour class, and a quick qualification against a paper target with no stress. Then never have to train again.

Which is "more"?

You'd need to show proof that all those "average gun owners" seek out some sort of advanced training beyond plinking cans in the backyard or hitting a paper target at the gun range..........and that all the cops do not do any training, or practice, outside of work.

Otherwise, you're saying "A person who has never had any official training....has more training than someone who has documented official in-depth training".

Which, of course, is silly, since it cannot be proven.

Wrong on all counts. "Average" gun owners far outnumber gangbangers and drug dealers and when push comes to shove the "average" gun owners have always won. Just ask the 58 gangbangers who died, vs. the 8 or so Korean shop owners, during the King riots in LA. Also just look at the rate of justifiable homicides for citizens vs. police, the civilians kill more than twice as many bad guys as the cops do.

Civilians do not go into situations that cops do. Cops seek out the drug dealers and criminals. Civilians hope to avoid them. Comparing stats of the two is absurd. And, the majority of civilian use of a gun occurs in the home, small space, with very few, if any, threat of innocent bystanders. Apples and oranges.

But, tell me, just what kind of special training does the "average gun owner" go through that makes them better than cops with guns???

 

[bucs90]

Well, look at this. This bar is near Clemson University, a college bar. Its in the upper state of SC, a very conservative area, near the Greenville Metro area halfway between Atlanta and Charlotte.

This courageous, small business owning American practice HIS right and his free speech.

SC passed a law allowing people to carry guns into bars. Booze and bullets, they mix, right?

Anyway, bars can post signs banning CWP holders from packing heat (you know, "just in case" they need to stand their ground by the pool tables).

This guy's sign not only bans them, but quotes: “NO CONCEALED WEAPONS ALLOWED. If you are such a loser that you feel a need to carry a gun with you when you go out, I do not want your business. Douchebag.”

He couldn't have said it any better. I support the right to own a gun, and keep it at your home and in your car. But I do NOT want to be next to some right wing idiot who needs to pack heat every time he goes to a bar or movie or walk in the park. Those folks are just not the type of people I want to be around, and God Bless America for allowing this brave small business owner to practice his right to keep those idiots out of his business.

If I had a kid that went to Clemson, I'd hope they'd choose this bar as their choice watering hole (hey, they're gonna go out and drink, face it)

I wonder how "Bucs90" would feel if this owner banned HOMOSEXUALS from "doing business" at his bar, instead of CWP gun owners.

Typical cherry-picking liberal clap-trap.

Bad, since there are laws against that kind of discrimination. Oops.

BTW, read past posts. I supported the right of the baker not to serve at a gay wedding (but, not to deny them the right to just buy a cake)

 

[Dr Grump]

I wonder how "Bucs90" would feel if this owner banned HOMOSEXUALS from "doing business" at his bar, instead of CWP gun owners.

Typical cherry-picking liberal clap-trap.

Banning somebody because of their sexual orientation is a whole lot different than not wanting a potentially destructive inanimate object in you place of work is completely different kettle of fish.

I don't expect you to 'get' the above but just thought I'd put it out there anyway

 

[westwall]

In most places I have lived, and it's especially true out here, the average gun owner has FAR more training and experience with their firearm than the police. There are three Reno police, five Carson City SO, two Capitol Police, and around 10 Washoe County SO, who I would consider competent with their weapons.

The rest of the LEO's impression of their guns is they take up space on their belts, and weigh too much.

Previous poster was right - a lot of people do confuse target practice with training.

Yep. Some don't get that. To put it in perspective:

Who would probably be a better basketball player:
Guy who shoots hoops in his driveway
Guy who goes through a training camp with a college hoops team

Who would be a better football player:
Guys who play toss in the backyard
Guys who go through college football camp

That's basically the target practice vs training question.

But, there are many great classes for civilians that are in-depth, intense, and great training on par with what police and military offer. But, they're expensive and require time away from work.

And even then, its a bad idea to bring a gun to a bar, much less pull it.

It's clear you have no idea what you're talking about. The gun ranges out here have regular competitions where CIVILIANS outshoot the law enforcement officers who show up on a REGULAR BASIS. This is not paper punching, this is IDPA, and IPSCC shooting.

Cops who wish to may pay to attend the various shooting schools but they have to do it on their dime. I attended Gunsite way back when Cooper was still the owner, and it was rare that LEO's showed up for the training.

Since then I have attended Thunder Ranch several times for their various classes and while LEO attendance is up, they are still vastly outnumbered by the civilians in attendance.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[TruthSeeker56]

BTW, that bar owner is completely within his rights to put up that sign and call various partons anything he wants.

And the patrons are free to find another bar. It's a private business, and there are plenty of others.

The bar owner is obviously one of those deluded nutcases I taked about earlier. There's no law against deluded nutcases owning bars. Nor should there be.

Actually, there probably are laws against people with mental illnesses owning bars. I think you need a liquor license and being a nutcase doesn't fit the bill. Maybe he's just some normal guy who is sick to death of the US gun culture supported by immature men with small wieners.....

So your defense against a gun-toting criminal holding you at gunpoint while he is raping your wife is to yell at him, "You're an immature man with a small weiner!"?

I'll bet people around you feel safe, knowing that you can defend everybody with your grade school playground vocabulary.

Moron.

 

[bucs90]

The advantage of universal concealed carry in a bar (or a store or shopping center or etc.), of course, is that a whacko who wants to mug somebody or rob the till, will know that even though most people still won't bother carrying, there are probably a few people in the crowd who are armed. And he won't know which one(s) they are, or where. So he knows his robbery or mugging probably won't succeed. So he's less likely to try it in the first place.

Concelaed carry results in far more safety (and without a shot ever being fired), than it does risk.

Which bar is the robber more likely to try to knock over? The one where he knows there are probably some armed people in the crowd? Or the one where he's sure there are none... because gunz are forbidden by a sign that calls CCW's "losers" and "douchebags"?

Funny. I searched local news articles from that county. That bar had never been robbed before.....despite guns not being allowed in bars under the old law.

 

[Little-Acorn]

The advantage of universal concealed carry in a bar (or a store or shopping center or etc.), of course, is that a whacko who wants to mug somebody or rob the till, will know that even though most people still won't bother carrying, there are probably a few people in the crowd who are armed. And he won't know which one(s) they are, or where. So he knows his robbery or mugging probably won't succeed. So he's less likely to try it in the first place.

Concelaed carry results in far more safety (and without a shot ever being fired), than it does risk.

Which bar is the robber more likely to try to knock over? The one where he knows there are probably some armed people in the crowd? Or the one where he's sure there are none... because gunz are forbidden by a sign that calls CCW's "losers" and "douchebags"?

 

[bucs90]

So you're saying the bar would be liable for injuries for NOT allowing guns in bars? Ok. What if a gun is allowed, and an accident occurs and someone is shot? Or some redneck "stands his ground" and misses, and hits someone. Same situation.

 

[Dr Grump]

BTW, that bar owner is completely within his rights to put up that sign and call various partons anything he wants.

And the patrons are free to find another bar. It's a private business, and there are plenty of others.

The bar owner is obviously one of those deluded nutcases I taked about earlier. There's no law against deluded nutcases owning bars. Nor should there be.

Actually, there probably are laws against people with mental illnesses owning bars. I think you need a liquor license and being a nutcase doesn't fit the bill. Maybe he's just some normal guy who is sick to death of the US gun culture supported by immature men with small wieners.....

So your defense against a gun-toting criminal holding you at gunpoint while he is raping your wife is to yell at him, "You're an immature man with a small weiner!"?

I'll bet people around you feel safe, knowing that you can defend everybody with your grade school playground vocabulary.

Moron.

I have never been, nor do I know of anybody, who has ever been a victim of gun violence. I live in Aussie. There are bugger-all guns around here.

I don't live in a chicken little world where maybe's and might of's occur. People around me don't even think about the crap you small wiener types do...

Retard...

 

[Little-Acorn]

The advantage of universal concealed carry in a bar (or a store or shopping center or etc.), of course, is that a whacko who wants to mug somebody or rob the till, will know that even though most people still won't bother carrying, there are probably a few people in the crowd who are armed. And he won't know which one(s) they are, or where. So he knows his robbery or mugging probably won't succeed. So he's less likely to try it in the first place.

Concelaed carry results in far more safety (and without a shot ever being fired), than it does risk.

Which bar is the robber more likely to try to knock over? The one where he knows there are probably some armed people in the crowd? Or the one where he's sure there are none... because gunz are forbidden by a sign that calls CCW's "losers" and "douchebags"?

Funny. I searched local news articles from that county. That bar had never been robbed before.....despite guns not being allowed in bars under the old law.

So you're implying that other bars in the jurisdiction of that law, WERE robbed?

Back to the subject:
Which bar is the robber more likely to try to knock over? The one where he knows there are probably some armed people in the crowd? Or the one where he's sure there are none... because gunz are forbidden by a sign that calls CCW's "losers" and "douchebags"?

 

[westwall]

You're making a ridiculous argument, that cannot be proven or tested. Your random drug dealer is an average gun owner too.

You're right that many cops see their guns as just another tool on a belt. Because the fascination phase has long past. They've trained with it, worked with it, etc, etc, and are over it.

Just an example:

A new cop in SC goes through 13 weeks of Police Academy, 3 of which are all firearms training, then are required to go through 1 week a year of in-service training.

A CWP holder has to go through an 8 hour class, and a quick qualification against a paper target with no stress. Then never have to train again.

Which is "more"?

You'd need to show proof that all those "average gun owners" seek out some sort of advanced training beyond plinking cans in the backyard or hitting a paper target at the gun range..........and that all the cops do not do any training, or practice, outside of work.

Otherwise, you're saying "A person who has never had any official training....has more training than someone who has documented official in-depth training".

Which, of course, is silly, since it cannot be proven.

Wrong on all counts. "Average" gun owners far outnumber gangbangers and drug dealers and when push comes to shove the "average" gun owners have always won. Just ask the 58 gangbangers who died, vs. the 8 or so Korean shop owners, during the King riots in LA. Also just look at the rate of justifiable homicides for citizens vs. police, the civilians kill more than twice as many bad guys as the cops do.

Civilians do not go into situations that cops do. Cops seek out the drug dealers and criminals. Civilians hope to avoid them. Comparing stats of the two is absurd. And, the majority of civilian use of a gun occurs in the home, small space, with very few, if any, threat of innocent bystanders. Apples and oranges.

But, tell me, just what kind of special training does the "average gun owner" go through that makes them better than cops with guns???

Cops show up after the fact and write reports. It is very rare that Cops are involved in activities you describe. One good friend of mine who has been an agent with California's DOJ BNE is one of the very few who regularly engages in that type of behavior and he and I have attended many schools together.

Another good friend of mine who retired as a Lt. out of the Alameda PD was a tactical movement trainer who regularly trained agents and LEO's at the FBI facility in Dublin and they also used Ft. Ord when it shut down. He used me as opfor whenever I was available because I had taken his class and a whole host of others, such as Gunsite, Thunder Ranch,
HALO, and a few others.

I also used to help a friend of mine put on a range demonstration for Dallas Faulkner, of the Stockton PD, who presented a Range Officer Candidate School for various LEO and Federal agencies. What was sad is one time the FBI brought their Colt 1921 Thompson SMG to the demonstration and they couldn't get it to work so I showed them how to field strip it then proceeded to clean about 25 years of built up crap from the action.

No, I have had loads of experience with LEO's around the western US, and I can safely say the majority are not competent with their weapons.