Should Americans who go fight for ISIS/ISIL lose their Citizenship?

[theDoctorisIn]

Aside from a case in which the person involved openly and willingly declares their support for ISIS, I think this would be setting an incredibly dangerous precedent.

How so? If they go to fight with ISIS- they are enemies of the USA, Seems pretty black and white to me....

What do you mean by "go to fight with ISIS"?

How do you prove it?

We live in a surveillance state, world actually. All you need do is pass legislation barring presence in that warzone. People will leave electronic details as they travel. Monitor Americans overseas as they approach Syria. Have local spies circulating through the crowds and capture images of people. Run them through the NSA super-brains and out pops photo evidence of an American in Syrian territory.

That type of law is simply a variation of the laws we have which bar Americans from going overseas to have sex with children. Don't step foot in Syria, and if you do then you've committed a crime.

Still, we're prevented from stripping natural born citizens of citizenship.

So, visiting Syria = supporting ISIS?

Law makes it so. Carry $11,000 cash over a border and see what happens to you, even if you have no intent to use the money for illegal purposes. The law deems your innocent act to be a crime if you don't report the cash.

Well, no such law exists forbidding travel to Syria. Are you suggesting that there should be one?

At this point I'm not suggesting anything. I haven't thought this through. Right now I'm just engaging with you on the "how-to" aspect.

Well, travel to Syria still doesn't prove "fighting for ISIS", which is the both the premise of the thread, and the premise of the post of mine you responded to.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Aside from a case in which the person involved openly and willingly declares their support for ISIS, I think this would be setting an incredibly dangerous precedent.

How so? If they go to fight with ISIS- they are enemies of the USA, Seems pretty black and white to me....

What do you mean by "go to fight with ISIS"?

How do you prove it?

We live in a surveillance state, world actually. All you need do is pass legislation barring presence in that warzone. People will leave electronic details as they travel. Monitor Americans overseas as they approach Syria. Have local spies circulating through the crowds and capture images of people. Run them through the NSA super-brains and out pops photo evidence of an American in Syrian territory.

That type of law is simply a variation of the laws we have which bar Americans from going overseas to have sex with children. Don't step foot in Syria, and if you do then you've committed a crime.

Still, we're prevented from stripping natural born citizens of citizenship.

So, visiting Syria = supporting ISIS?

Law makes it so. Carry $11,000 cash over a border and see what happens to you, even if you have no intent to use the money for illegal purposes. The law deems your innocent act to be a crime if you don't report the cash.

Well, no such law exists forbidding travel to Syria. Are you suggesting that there should be one?

At this point I'm not suggesting anything. I haven't thought this through. Right now I'm just engaging with you on the "how-to" aspect.

Well, travel to Syria still doesn't prove "fighting for ISIS", which is the both the premise of the thread, and the premise of the post of mine you responded to.

Traveling across a border with more than $10,000 doesn't prove that you're money laundering either and yet you're in serious trouble if you break this "administrative" law.

All Congress needs to do is declare it illegal for an American citizen to be in Syria and then they have the legal basis to punish people who are there.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

How do you prove beyond a doubt that someone has "chosen" to go to Syria or Iraq to fight for ISIS?

If they actually go there and join them, it's a good sign they meant to.

These days, NSA listens in on phone conversations, reads our emails and can watch us. I'm sure they have the goods on everyone.

Go where? Iraq? Syria?

The NSA is part of the Federal Government, remember? They can't do anything right.

I don't trust the NSA to decide who gets to lose their citizenship - do you?

 

[theDoctorisIn]

Aside from a case in which the person involved openly and willingly declares their support for ISIS, I think this would be setting an incredibly dangerous precedent.

How so? If they go to fight with ISIS- they are enemies of the USA, Seems pretty black and white to me....

What do you mean by "go to fight with ISIS"?

How do you prove it?

We live in a surveillance state, world actually. All you need do is pass legislation barring presence in that warzone. People will leave electronic details as they travel. Monitor Americans overseas as they approach Syria. Have local spies circulating through the crowds and capture images of people. Run them through the NSA super-brains and out pops photo evidence of an American in Syrian territory.

That type of law is simply a variation of the laws we have which bar Americans from going overseas to have sex with children. Don't step foot in Syria, and if you do then you've committed a crime.

Still, we're prevented from stripping natural born citizens of citizenship.

So, visiting Syria = supporting ISIS?

Law makes it so. Carry $11,000 cash over a border and see what happens to you, even if you have no intent to use the money for illegal purposes. The law deems your innocent act to be a crime if you don't report the cash.

Well, no such law exists forbidding travel to Syria. Are you suggesting that there should be one?

At this point I'm not suggesting anything. I haven't thought this through. Right now I'm just engaging with you on the "how-to" aspect.

Well, travel to Syria still doesn't prove "fighting for ISIS", which is the both the premise of the thread, and the premise of the post of mine you responded to.

Traveling across a border with more than $10,000 doesn't prove that you're money laundering either and yet you're in serious trouble if you break this "administrative" law.

All Congress needs to do is declare it illegal for an American citizen to be in Syria and then they have the legal basis to punish people who are there.

That's true, but doesn't have anything to do with the premise of this thread.

 

[Rikurzhen]

Aside from a case in which the person involved openly and willingly declares their support for ISIS, I think this would be setting an incredibly dangerous precedent.

How so? If they go to fight with ISIS- they are enemies of the USA, Seems pretty black and white to me....

What do you mean by "go to fight with ISIS"?

How do you prove it?

We live in a surveillance state, world actually. All you need do is pass legislation barring presence in that warzone. People will leave electronic details as they travel. Monitor Americans overseas as they approach Syria. Have local spies circulating through the crowds and capture images of people. Run them through the NSA super-brains and out pops photo evidence of an American in Syrian territory.

That type of law is simply a variation of the laws we have which bar Americans from going overseas to have sex with children. Don't step foot in Syria, and if you do then you've committed a crime.

Still, we're prevented from stripping natural born citizens of citizenship.

So, visiting Syria = supporting ISIS?

Law makes it so. Carry $11,000 cash over a border and see what happens to you, even if you have no intent to use the money for illegal purposes. The law deems your innocent act to be a crime if you don't report the cash.

Well, no such law exists forbidding travel to Syria. Are you suggesting that there should be one?

At this point I'm not suggesting anything. I haven't thought this through. Right now I'm just engaging with you on the "how-to" aspect.

Well, travel to Syria still doesn't prove "fighting for ISIS", which is the both the premise of the thread, and the premise of the post of mine you responded to.

Traveling across a border with more than $10,000 doesn't prove that you're money laundering either and yet you're in serious trouble if you break this "administrative" law.

All Congress needs to do is declare it illegal for an American citizen to be in Syria and then they have the legal basis to punish people who are there.

That's true, but doesn't have anything to do with the premise of this thread.

To the premise of this thread:

Although rare, it is possible for a naturalized U.S. citizen to have his or her citizenship stripped through a process called "denaturalization." Former citizens who are denaturalized are subject to removal (deportation) from the United States. Natural-born U.S. citizens may not have their citizenship revoked against their will, but may choose to renounce their citizenship on their own.​

 

[Tresha91203]

Good. If I want to visit Syria, I may be an idiot, but I'm not a criminal. I don't need the government telling me where I can visit. I might just be some total airhead who fell in lurv with some internet romeo overseas. If I am that stupid, I'd like to die a US citizen (cause surely my stupidity would be the death of me).

 

[Tom Sweetnam]

I'm not a Democrat, and I haven't said a word about "borders".

Sorry doc. Maybe it was that “let our crowds be fed on tear gas and plate glass” that threw me. I should have guessed "anarchist" instead. In which case, why would you give a damn about things like "citizenship"?

 

[theDoctorisIn]

I'm not a Democrat, and I haven't said a word about "borders".

Sorry doc. Maybe it was that “let our crowds be fed on tear gas and plate glass” that threw me. I should have guessed "anarchist" instead. In which case, why would you give a damn about things like "citizenship"?

I'm not an anarchist either. My signature is song lyrics, I wouldn't try to read too much into it.

I don't know if there's a word for what I am. I think ideologies are dumb.

Maybe you could call me a postmodernist, but I don't know if that really fits either.

 

[TemplarKormac]

How do you prove beyond a doubt that someone has "chosen" to go to Syria or Iraq to fight for ISIS?

YouTube, Facebook, Twitter... social media in general.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

How do you prove beyond a doubt that someone has "chosen" to go to Syria or Iraq to fight for ISIS?

YouTube, Facebook, Twitter... social media in general.

What if they don't "share" it?

How would you use Facebook or Twitter to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that someone has "joined" ISIS?

 

[Two Thumbs]

no, you cannot take away someones citizenship just b/c they are evil

captured helping them?

send them to GITMO with the rest of the worlds trash

 

[Two Thumbs]

How do you prove beyond a doubt that someone has "chosen" to go to Syria or Iraq to fight for ISIS?

YouTube, Facebook, Twitter... social media in general.

What if they don't "share" it?

How would you use Facebook or Twitter to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that someone has "joined" ISIS?

arrest if there's enough evidence the a trial. like any other crime

 

[theDoctorisIn]

How do you prove beyond a doubt that someone has "chosen" to go to Syria or Iraq to fight for ISIS?

YouTube, Facebook, Twitter... social media in general.

What if they don't "share" it?

How would you use Facebook or Twitter to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that someone has "joined" ISIS?

arrest if there's enough evidence the a trial. like any other crime

I have no issue with that - but that's not what this thread is about, or what Ted Cruz is suggesting.

 

[Two Thumbs]

How do you prove beyond a doubt that someone has "chosen" to go to Syria or Iraq to fight for ISIS?

YouTube, Facebook, Twitter... social media in general.

What if they don't "share" it?

How would you use Facebook or Twitter to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that someone has "joined" ISIS?

arrest if there's enough evidence the a trial. like any other crime

I have no issue with that - but that's not what this thread is about, or what Ted Cruz is suggesting.

Ted is just grandstanding

he's a pol, they do that kind of stuff

 

[Rikurzhen]

Probably should let them go over and fight and get radicalized and then let them come back and cause trouble here. A good wake up call for America.

Canada has had a lot of social problems with their African and Caribbean immigrants so their government shifted focus towards Chinese and Indian immigrants and severely curtailed immigration from the Caribbean and Africa. Time to put PC pieties on the bonfire. This would help steer America away from its suicidal immigration policies.

Let them go and fight and don't hinder them in any way.

 

[TemplarKormac]

How do you prove beyond a doubt that someone has "chosen" to go to Syria or Iraq to fight for ISIS?

YouTube, Facebook, Twitter... social media in general.

What if they don't "share" it?

How would you use Facebook or Twitter to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that someone has "joined" ISIS?

Why must you muddy the waters with speculative questions? Terrorists have a sense of bravado that do them in, they will most likely post videos of their own showing how there are Americans defecting to their cause. There are plenty of ways, one of them being the CIA.

You neglected the latter half of my post, which includes the phrase "social media in general" it doesn't necessarily have to be Facebook or Twitter.

 

[theDoctorisIn]

How do you prove beyond a doubt that someone has "chosen" to go to Syria or Iraq to fight for ISIS?

YouTube, Facebook, Twitter... social media in general.

What if they don't "share" it?

How would you use Facebook or Twitter to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that someone has "joined" ISIS?

Why must you muddy the waters with speculative questions? Terrorists have a sense of bravado that do them in, they will most likely post videos of their own showing how there are Americans defecting to their cause. There are plenty of ways, one of them being the CIA.

You neglected the latter half of my post, which includes the phrase "social media in general" it doesn't necessarily have to be Facebook or Twitter.

When someone suggests removing citizenship from Americans based on poorly defined criteria, it's our fucking jobs to muddy the waters with speculative questions. Otherwise you get shit like the Patriot Act and NSA surveillance.

Ted Cruz suggests that we remove US citizenship from "members" of ISIS to prevent them from returning to the US to commit acts of terror. Wouldn't you assume that if someone was planning on "committing acts of terror" when they got home, they wouldn't post about it on social media beforehand?

 

[Rikurzhen]

How do you prove beyond a doubt that someone has "chosen" to go to Syria or Iraq to fight for ISIS?

YouTube, Facebook, Twitter... social media in general.

What if they don't "share" it?

How would you use Facebook or Twitter to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that someone has "joined" ISIS?

Why must you muddy the waters with speculative questions? Terrorists have a sense of bravado that do them in, they will most likely post videos of their own showing how there are Americans defecting to their cause. There are plenty of ways, one of them being the CIA.

You neglected the latter half of my post, which includes the phrase "social media in general" it doesn't necessarily have to be Facebook or Twitter.

When someone suggests removing citizenship from Americans based on poorly defined criteria, it's our fucking jobs to muddy the waters with speculative questions. Otherwise you get shit like the Patriot Act and NSA surveillance.

Ted Cruz suggests that we remove US citizenship from "members" of ISIS to prevent them from returning to the US to commit acts of terror. Wouldn't you assume that if someone was planning on "committing acts of terror" when they got home, they wouldn't post about it on social media beforehand?

No, I wouldn't make that assumption. You're making a grave analytic error here. You're presuming that the subjects of your analysis think like you. They don't. You need to think like them.

If they're hellbent on going to fight, if they're full of piss and vinegar, then it's very unlikely that they're sitting down and making a list of pros and cons and checking the tally to see which side has the greatest number of points. They're acting orthogonally to reason, so posting to social media is entirely plausible for they're sharing with other like-minded individuals so that they can commune on the glory of their fight with those who understand and encourage and reinforce their decision and commitment.

If you want to analyze the behavior of a crack whore, don't think like an upper class housewife, think like a crack whore. Same with a jihadi.

 

[Tom Sweetnam]

I'm not an anarchist either. My signature is song lyrics, I wouldn't try to read too much into it.

I don't know if there's a word for what I am. I think ideologies are dumb.

Maybe you could call me a postmodernist, but I don't know if that really fits either.

How about "confused"?

 

[Wacky Quacky]

Here go Republicans wanting to give away more rights just to feel safe from the boogie man.

No natural born citizen can have their citizenship stripped from them against their will. And Cruz doesn't get to decide what constitutes renouncing citizenship. There is a long drawn out process to renouncing citizenship, and unless a person goes through the process they remain a US citizen. End of story.

Note: my whole post is directed towards natural born citizens, not naturalized citizens.