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I actually strongly agree, which made me look twice at the OP. From everything I can find, to have transition surgery requires meeting a stringent (multi-year) set of conditions and the person must be at least 18. Even hormone therapy for that purpose does not appear to be given to kids though puberty blockers can be.Coyote, let’s not lose the baby in that dirty bathwater. (I like that you can jump out of box though, because I do that all the time!) I’ll address your points before going back to gender surgery, and why adolescents might change their mind post-surgery.
The cases where the kids die because caregivers denied life-saving treatment is not anything remotely like elective gender surgery. I tried to connect those dots, but I don’t see it.
I watched a documentary about parents who refused life-saving treatment (kidney transplant with available donor) for their child. These cases are absolutely heartbreaking. Placing their religious views over the life of their child, I’d be pretty sure I was in the wrong church, but that’s just me.
One thing we have in common, and most readers on this thread, is that we care about these kids, right? I agree that kids have rights, all humans have rights. But with permanent gender surgery, until an adult is able to fully grasp the short/middle/long term treatment requirements, and continued need for medical visits, this is a no-brainer.
It is a hard follow-through for bio males and females to maintain adequate hormone levels and this regime impacts brain development.
There are many girls who need hormone therapy following puberty to minimize monthly cramping, regulating erratic periods etc. That’s outside of this discussion box, however, since the levels are minimal compared to what’s needed for gender transition. They’ll be more studies come out about risk factors as we learn more.
Gender surgery should not be something that teens consider to be “just another option to explore”, but this is happening. As you know, peer influence maxes out and peaks during adolescence. Most teens cannot even imagine that they will not be with these same friends forever and ever. I thought the same thing back then! Ha
Example: a new, shy girl befriends a small group of girls at her new school. One girl wants to have gender surgery and that’s all she talks about. The new girl has been sheltered and given very little attention during her formative years, and notices how much attention this new friend is getting. Knowing how middle school girls are, that new girl (who lacks self-awareness and confidence) could consider it as an optional attention getter. Most wouldn’t go beyond that, but some would. Preteens are even more gullible. This needs to be part of the conversation.
I had no idea about any of it until watching a couple of YouTube videos with 20-something females who had transitioned and reversing the bottom surgery. Both girls appeared depressed in the footage, one without friends, but using a format (YouTube) to get their information out might have led to finding support with others sharing similar stories. Suicide comes to mind sadly if clinically depressed, and immediate medical intervention that’s hopefully happened by now.I actually strongly agree, which made me look twice at the OP. From everything I can find, to have transition surgery requires meeting a stringent (multi-year) set of conditions and the person must be at least 18. Even hormone therapy for that purpose does not appear to be given to kids though puberty blockers can be.
Gender surgery should not be something that teens consider to be “just another option to explore”, but this is happening. As you know, peer influence maxes out and peaks during adolescence. Most teens cannot even imagine that they will not be with these same friends forever and ever. I thought the same thing back then! Ha
I had no idea about any of it until watching a couple of YouTube videos with 20-something females who had transitioned and reversing the bottom surgery. Both girls appeared depressed in the footage, one without friends, but using a format (YouTube) to get their information out might have led to finding support with others sharing similar stories. Suicide comes to mind sadly if clinically depressed, and immediate medical intervention that’s hopefully happened by now.
Link? It’s likely not going to change my mind as a parent, but I’m always open to factual evidence. It seems your main point is that because we are told (data changes daily) that only 1% or so regret the decision, no age requirement needed? At 11? How about at 7? Five year old female, who happens to have two older brothers she emulates, likes dressing like a boy every single day. Time for surgery? Yikes. I beg to differ..
Don't get the wrong idea ... I am not an expert and just giving observations.
I really don't have a huge interest in the subject, but I wanted to know what I was posting about in this and another thread.
You expressed concern about Gender Affirmation Surgery, its availability and how peer influence may have an impact.
Where peer influence may have an impact on introduction to ideas ... It is almost irrelevant towards qualifying for GAS.
Furthermore ... The cumulative study (27 studies and 7938 patients pooled -International, including the US) I reviewed,
indicated post-surgery regret for both transfeminine and transmasculine GAS was 1%.
As I stated earlier, those numbers are low because it isn't easy to get approved for GAS.
The only oddity I saw in the data, was the median age of participants included in the studies.
The median age for the US participants was 18.9, where the median age was much higher for the European studies.
That could also be attributed simply to the pool of patients selected for the US study.
There is no indication that it reflects the actual median age of all GAS procedures in the US.
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Link? It’s likely not going to change my mind as a parent, but I’m always open to factual evidence. It seems your main point is that because we are told (data changes daily) that only 1% or so regrets the decision, no age requirement needed? At 11? How about at 7? Five year old female, who happens to have two older brothers she emulates, likes dressing like a boy. Time for surgery? Yikes. I beg to differ.
Considering the numbers of humans on Earth, there are likely specific circumstances that require an earlier “rush” for the procedure, but I’m not aware of those conditions? Sourced please.
I will never support pushing gender surgery to young ages or teenagers. It’s a drastic medical decision that should take years to decide by a fully developed mind. Does your evidence claim that adolescents now have suddenly developed the frontal lobe connection at a younger age?
I’m going for common sense approach. Your medical findings with a “1% rate of regret” needs 3 legit sources, now that I think about it.
I have a 19-year-old daughter who is heterosexual. I have thought about if she would tell me she wanted to change genders to confirm same standard. It would be hard to hold her off, and I am glad this is not the case. She might tell me from what she’s read she’s going to wait. It wouldn’t have anything to do with the information I have, but information that she’s gained. I’ll have to ask her later if I have it right.
As a middle school teacher, I’m
aware of not just my daughter’s adolescence but many other kids going through puberty, year after year. Their weekly ups and downs, one day this, another day that ongoing. These kids don’t need to be making optional, permanent surgery decisions, sorry. Again I refer back to somebody in a special case, otherwise no.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
If you’re not “interested in expressing any desire to justify or support anything” after posting statistics without a source on a public message board, why interject? What’s the point of listing what appears to be statistical evidence without providing a source? You’re not new here BS so your comment is more than baffling. Alas, not the first time feeling baffled..
Don't assume I am expressing any desire to justify or support anything.
Some of the questions you are asking are strictly not covered in any of the articles I reviewed.
As far as any source data you may desire ... There are about 5000 plus links to a plethora of articles and information on the subject.
Here is the broadest overview of the studies I cited as far as data, procedures, and methods.
There is an abundance of articles that go into greater detail in regards to the results generated by the studies.
You are going to have to find and weed through those yourself.
Regret after Gender-affirmation Surgery: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis of Prevalence
Supplemental Digital Content is available in the text.There is an unknown percentage of transgender and gender non-confirming individuals who undergo gender-affirmation surgeries (GAS) that experiences regret. Regret could lead to physical and mental ...
If you need help figuring out how to ask the right questions to find the appropriate data you may want to review, let me know.
If you want to read a bunch of articles that may better support your views, I am pretty sure you can find a plethora of those as well.
I am less concerned about your commonsense interpretation of the matter ...
Than I am about finding out what people in the field, or desiring the procedure think about what they are doing.
It doesn't mean I agree with, or support any of it ...
I am not trying to change your mind about anything ...
Your career and daughter, have absolutely nothing to do with anything I have posted
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If you’re not “interested in expressing any desire to justify or support anything” after posting statistics without a source on a public message board, why interject? What’s the point of listing what appears to be statistical evidence without providing a source? You’re not new here BS so your comment is more than baffling. Alas, not the first time feeling baffled.
Mentioning my daughter provided a backdrop for readers. That I would maintain the same opinion about gender surgery being held off beyond the legal age of 18. Mentioning that I am a middle school teacher is sharing my “kid department credentials”. Yours? Oh, right. I forgot you’re not here to share any…what was it again “to express any desire to justify or support anything”. Lol Carry on BS.
What was your ASVAB score? 31? You obviously cannot fucking read the link I posted. Why are you such a moron?.
No it isn't ,... Read your link, and it doesn't address ownership.
You can purchase one for a minor as a gift (or the minor can inherit one) and they will own it.
You won't find a link to what you are looking for because it doesn't exist ...
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I highlighted the text, you ignoramus!Which part?
I heard about this story on the Andrew Klavan show....Abigail Shrier wrote a book about the Transgender push that is essentially child abuse by the medical and psychiatric profession. This is a story she covered in an article for City Journal.....
Here is the story...
Ahmed is a Pakistani immigrant, a faithful Muslim, and until recently, a financial consultant to Seattle’s high-tech sector. But when he reached me by phone in October 2020, he was just one more frightened father. Days earlier, he and his wife had checked their 16-year-old son into Seattle Children’s Hospital for credible threats of suicide. Now, Ahmed was worried that the white coats who had gently admitted his son to their care would refuse to return him.
“They sent an email to us, you know, ‘you should take your ‘daughter’ to the gender clinic,’” he told me.
At first, Ahmed (I have changed names in this essay to protect the identities of minor children) assumed there had been a mistake. He had dropped off a son, Syed, to the hospital, in a terrible state of distress. Now, the email he received from the mental health experts used a new name for that son and claimed he was Ahmed’s daughter. “They were trying to create a customer for their gender clinic . . . and they seemed to absolutely want to push us in that direction,” he said when I spoke to him again this May, recalling the horror of last October. “We had calls with counselors and therapists in the establishment, telling us how important it is for him to change his gender, because that’s the only way he’s going to be better out of this suicidal depressive state.”
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The age at which minors in the State of Washington can receive mental health and gender-affirming care without parental permission is 13. In other words, the emails Ahmed received from the hospital were effectively a courtesy; the hospital did not require Ahmed’s permission to begin his son on a path to medical transition.
But unlike some other parents I would later speak with, Ahmed’s cool head prevailed. Believing he might be walking into a trap, Ahmed reached out to both a lawyer and a psychiatrist friend he trusted. The psychiatrist gave him advice that he believes saved his son, saying, in Ahmed’s words:
“You have to be very, very careful, because if you come across as just even a little bit anti-trans or anything, they’re going to call the Child Protective Services on you and take custody of your kid.” The lawyer told Ahmed the same: “What you want to do is agree with them and take your kid home. When the gender counselors advise you to ‘affirm,’ go along with it. Just say ‘Uh-huh, uh-huh, okay, let’s take him home, and we’ll go to the gender clinic.’”
Ahmed assured Seattle Children’s Hospital that he would take his son to a gender clinic and commence his son’s transition. Instead, he collected his son, quit his job, and moved his family of four out of Washington.
Amazon product
Should the state be able to take your children and then allow them to change their physical form.....without your consent...........by force?
What was your ASVAB score? 31? You obviously cannot fucking read the link I posted. Why are you such a moron?
Under the Gun Control Act (GCA), shotguns and rifles, and ammunition for shotguns or rifles may be sold only to individuals 18 years of age or older. All firearms other than shotguns and rifles, and all ammunition other than ammunition for shotguns or rifles may be sold only to individuals 21 years of age or older. Licensees are bound by the minimum age requirements established by the GCA regardless of State or local law. However, if State law or local ordinances establish a higher minimum age for the purchase or disposition of firearms, the licensee must observe the higher age requirement..
The link you provided still doesn't support your argument ...
Putting your comprehension skills more into question than mine will ever be.
I understand you are going to keep mindlessly slapping your jaws ...
Because you are never going to find a link that will support the nonsense you were stupid enough to post in the first place.
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Under the Gun Control Act (GCA), shotguns and rifles, and ammunition for shotguns or rifles may be sold only to individuals 18 years of age or older. All firearms other than shotguns and rifles, and all ammunition other than ammunition for shotguns or rifles may be sold only to individuals 21 years of age or older. Licensees are bound by the minimum age requirements established by the GCA regardless of State or local law. However, if State law or local ordinances establish a higher minimum age for the purchase or disposition of firearms, the licensee must observe the higher age requirement.
[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1) and (b)(2); 27 CFR 478.99(b)]
Did you read this? It restricts the sale to 18 year-olds for rifles and shotguns and 21 year-olds can buy a handgun. Those funky numbers at the bottom are the law and Code of Federal Regulations.
If not, you should be placed in a mental facility specializing in sudden onset mental retardation.
You are starting to make liberals look intelligent, and that's hard to do!
I'm sorry, but you are pathetic! The CDZ is not for people to blatantly lie without being called on it. I used no profanity and you have illustrated numerous times that you have a mental issue. Have a nice day!.
I didn't say anything about minors buying anything.
You can post it again and again and that won't change anything.
You still haven't proven your point, because the link you posted doesn't address what you were trying to express.
You won't find a link that will address what you are trying to express, because what you are looking for does not exist.
Before you get anymore carried away,
you might want to read the rules in regard to the Clean Debate Zone and see if you can do a better job of figuring those out as well ...
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I'm sorry, but you are pathetic! The CDZ is not for people to blatantly lie without being called on it. I used no profanity and you have illustrated numerous times that you have a mental issue. Have a nice day!
Please quote the part of my post where I’ve asserted support for an “us versus them” mentality. Additionally, it is never my intent to tell posters what to think. That’s not only outside of my authority but an ineffective method of communication with no winners..
I provided a link the core source data and meta-data when you asked for it.
I have already expressed my intentions with looking into the subject.
The shortest and best description of such, would be the lack of a desire to know absolutely nothing about what I am going to post
other than how I feel, or an unsupported opinion based on irrelevant information.
I don't have a strong opinion about it for 2 Reasons.
1. I seriously don't "have a dog in the fight".
2. None of the data is truly consistent across the spectrum, with the exceptions of a very few things they can agree on.
We may differ in how we approach information and data.
I am not entirely sure how you do things, but I start by assuming everything I think I know is wrong.
Then I find data, research, articles and opinion that cover the best questions I can ask.
If I think any of the data, articles, and research are worth contributing to the conversation ... I will.
If you have the dire need for me to drive stakes in the ground and conform to a strict "us and them"
platform to participate in this discussion ...
Go Pound Sand ...
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Please quote the part of my post where I’ve asserted support for an “us versus them” mentality. Additionally, it is never my intent to tell posters what to think. That’s not only outside of my authority but an ineffective method of communication with no winners.
Gender conversion discussions result in 2 distinctive points of view, like we’re seeing in this thread. Determining who should have the authority, parents and some healthcare facility. The quick answer for most has been parents. I fall under the long answer type of poster, shocker I know, verbose for those preferring short. I reject all efforts (outside of proven child abuse) supporting state control (medical facilities acting like state actors) over family control hands down.
You cannot point out my error. You have not disputed my link. Yet, you claim I am wrong. That's pathertic!.
You can say whatever you want and believe that you are not in error when you were in the first place.
It's also obvious you are more comfortable interpreting just about everything in a manner that suits your desires regardless of how incorrect you may be ...
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You cannot point out my error. You have not disputed my link. Yet, you claim I am wrong. That's pathertic!
