The battle for the soul of America.

[Mindful]

From the article:

^^ Opponents of Trump, Brexit and so on are using symbols of past evil to discredit their present-day opponents.

That’s what it’s really about.

This argument pre-dates Trump.

Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials is an ongoing process in the United States since the 1960s. Many municipalities in the United States have removed monuments and memorials on public property dedicated to the Confederate States of America (CSA)

Removal of Confederate monuments and memorials - Wikipedia

The article to be “debated” is not about your own personal sensibilities.

 

[pknopp]

If you wish to change the subject or create an argument for me that I am not making, have at it but I'm not playing along.

Removing Confederate monuments is no different than the Taliban blowing up Buddhist artifacts or Stalin removing the faces of people from government photographs

you are trying erase history

That's been covered many times. As of yet you haven't addressed my main point. No one today should have to walk past a statue in the public square while going to go pay their taxes to someone that fought to keep their ancestors in slavery.

Just because that honor is no longer in the public square does not erase the history of what they did. We have countless museums, movies, books, etc that tells the story.

Were you as concerned about this, ten years ago?

Or even pre George Floyd?

Absolutely. I am not permitted to link to my earlier positions here or I would.

 

[B. Kidd]

If you wish to change the subject or create an argument for me that I am not making, have at it but I'm not playing along.

Removing Confederate monuments is no different than the Taliban blowing up Buddhist artifacts or Stalin removing the faces of people from government photographs

you are trying erase history

That's been covered many times. As of yet you haven't addressed my main point. No one today should have to walk past a statue in the public square while going to go pay their taxes to someone that fought to keep their ancestors in slavery.

Just because that honor is no longer in the public square does not erase the history of what they did. We have countless museums, movies, books, etc that tells the story.

So you are into nullification of selective statues stemming from one narrow political perspective.
I believe that is called totalitarianism!

 

[MadDog]

^Because make no mistake – the New York Times’ 1619 Project has played a vital political role in today’s political unrest. It has done nothing less than devalue and criminalise the founding of the United States.

That is what King George thought also..

Which means absolutely nothing!

 

[Mac-7]

That's been covered many times. As of yet you haven't addressed my main point. No one today should have to walk past a statue in the public square while going to go pay their taxes to someone that fought to keep their ancestors in slavery.

You are still repeating yourself like a Hari Krishna chant

I understand that safe rooms and petting ponies so that no liberals can ever be offended is official policy of the left

but thats unAmerican

I may not like being forced to drive on Malcom X Blvd but I can live with it

And besides, you never answered my point that black American citizens today are the beneficiaries of slavey from 1619 to 1865

 

[pknopp]

If you wish to change the subject or create an argument for me that I am not making, have at it but I'm not playing along.

Removing Confederate monuments is no different than the Taliban blowing up Buddhist artifacts or Stalin removing the faces of people from government photographs

you are trying erase history

That's been covered many times. As of yet you haven't addressed my main point. No one today should have to walk past a statue in the public square while going to go pay their taxes to someone that fought to keep their ancestors in slavery.

Just because that honor is no longer in the public square does not erase the history of what they did. We have countless museums, movies, books, etc that tells the story.

So you are into nullification of selective statues stemming from one narrow political perspective.
I believe that is called totalitarianism!

You can directly address my point or create some random argument or not. As my link notes, as a country we have been doing this for 50-60 years already. Some places simply insist on remaining backwards.

 

[B. Kidd]

Asking a black man to pass by a statue honoring someone that fought to keep his ancestors in slavery as he goes to the courthouse to pay his taxes is wrong.

Just because "historically" we did it does not make it right.

such bullshit. In New Orleans we have had a statue of Lee on Lee circle for over a hundred years, hundreds of thousands of blacks and whites have passed that statue every day and no one ever claimed to be offended until last year. What changed? Now the statue is gone, is the city better? is the crime rate down? are the potholes fixed? is the flooding stopped? Who is better off because a statue is gone? the covid shutdown and our incompetent mayor have damaged this city much more than any statue.

sure, there are some bad things in our history, but to pretend that they never happened is to risk repeating them. We need to learn from history, not try to rewrite it using today's perceptions of right and wrong.

Did no one complain or did you simply not listen? No one is pretending things in the past never happened. The argument is that we shouldn't be honoring those who did those things in the public square.

Asking a black man to pass by a statue honoring someone that fought to keep his ancestors in slavery as he goes to the courthouse to pay his taxes is wrong.

Just because "historically" we did it does not make it right.

such bullshit. In New Orleans we have had a statue of Lee on Lee circle for over a hundred years, hundreds of thousands of blacks and whites have passed that statue every day and no one ever claimed to be offended until last year. What changed? Now the statue is gone, is the city better? is the crime rate down? are the potholes fixed? is the flooding stopped? Who is better off because a statue is gone? the covid shutdown and our incompetent mayor have damaged this city much more than any statue.

sure, there are some bad things in our history, but to pretend that they never happened is to risk repeating them. We need to learn from history, not try to rewrite it using today's perceptions of right and wrong.

NOLA also has a statue of slaves in chains. When I saw that statue, my initial reaction was, well that was F'ed up!; instead of reacting that we should bring slavery back.
Once again, statues note history, not necessarily promote history!

Statues are placed as an honor to that person.

Only one perception and your only perception.
That could be a problem.

Except it's not just me.

It is not a majority consensus neither. It is a politically calculated one only.

Allowing blacks to eat at the white lunch counter wasn't a majority consensus either.

Bullshit! The Civil Rights Act surely was!!
You cannot credibly debate history, etc., especially since you know little about it.

 

[Redfish]

Asking a black man to pass by a statue honoring someone that fought to keep his ancestors in slavery as he goes to the courthouse to pay his taxes is wrong.

Just because "historically" we did it does not make it right.

such bullshit. In New Orleans we have had a statue of Lee on Lee circle for over a hundred years, hundreds of thousands of blacks and whites have passed that statue every day and no one ever claimed to be offended until last year. What changed? Now the statue is gone, is the city better? is the crime rate down? are the potholes fixed? is the flooding stopped? Who is better off because a statue is gone? the covid shutdown and our incompetent mayor have damaged this city much more than any statue.

sure, there are some bad things in our history, but to pretend that they never happened is to risk repeating them. We need to learn from history, not try to rewrite it using today's perceptions of right and wrong.

Where was the statue of Hitler?

didn't have one, but there is a statue of Marx in Seattle. and its still standing. What does that tell you?

 

[pknopp]

That's been covered many times. As of yet you haven't addressed my main point. No one today should have to walk past a statue in the public square while going to go pay their taxes to someone that fought to keep their ancestors in slavery.

You are still repeating yourself like a Hari Krishna chant

I understand that safe rooms and petting ponies so that no liberals can ever be offended is official policy of the left

I'm pro-life. I fully support the 2nd amendment. I believe in keeping the electoral college. I believe in balancing the budget.

What makes me a liberal?

but thats unAmerican

I may not like being forced to drive on Malcom X Blvd but I can live with it

And besides, you never answered my point that black American citizens today are the beneficiaries of slavey from 1619 to 1865

You may see slavery as beneficial, I do not.

 

[pknopp]

Asking a black man to pass by a statue honoring someone that fought to keep his ancestors in slavery as he goes to the courthouse to pay his taxes is wrong.

Just because "historically" we did it does not make it right.

such bullshit. In New Orleans we have had a statue of Lee on Lee circle for over a hundred years, hundreds of thousands of blacks and whites have passed that statue every day and no one ever claimed to be offended until last year. What changed? Now the statue is gone, is the city better? is the crime rate down? are the potholes fixed? is the flooding stopped? Who is better off because a statue is gone? the covid shutdown and our incompetent mayor have damaged this city much more than any statue.

sure, there are some bad things in our history, but to pretend that they never happened is to risk repeating them. We need to learn from history, not try to rewrite it using today's perceptions of right and wrong.

Did no one complain or did you simply not listen? No one is pretending things in the past never happened. The argument is that we shouldn't be honoring those who did those things in the public square.

Asking a black man to pass by a statue honoring someone that fought to keep his ancestors in slavery as he goes to the courthouse to pay his taxes is wrong.

Just because "historically" we did it does not make it right.

such bullshit. In New Orleans we have had a statue of Lee on Lee circle for over a hundred years, hundreds of thousands of blacks and whites have passed that statue every day and no one ever claimed to be offended until last year. What changed? Now the statue is gone, is the city better? is the crime rate down? are the potholes fixed? is the flooding stopped? Who is better off because a statue is gone? the covid shutdown and our incompetent mayor have damaged this city much more than any statue.

sure, there are some bad things in our history, but to pretend that they never happened is to risk repeating them. We need to learn from history, not try to rewrite it using today's perceptions of right and wrong.

NOLA also has a statue of slaves in chains. When I saw that statue, my initial reaction was, well that was F'ed up!; instead of reacting that we should bring slavery back.
Once again, statues note history, not necessarily promote history!

Statues are placed as an honor to that person.

Only one perception and your only perception.
That could be a problem.

Except it's not just me.

It is not a majority consensus neither. It is a politically calculated one only.

Allowing blacks to eat at the white lunch counter wasn't a majority consensus either.

Bullshit! The Civil Rights Act surely was!!
You cannot credibly debate history, etc., especially since you know little about it.

That we got around the passing that act in no way disputes what I said. It only passed after many protests.

 

[TheParser]

Yes, the detestable New York Times is right: Everything that is happening this very minute can be traced to 1619.

If the British colonists had not forced people from a faraway continent to come here, we would not be having the terrible social problems that we are currently suffering from and that will eventually result in the implosion of this nation by the end of the century.

 

[Redfish]

Asking a black man to pass by a statue honoring someone that fought to keep his ancestors in slavery as he goes to the courthouse to pay his taxes is wrong.

Just because "historically" we did it does not make it right.

such bullshit. In New Orleans we have had a statue of Lee on Lee circle for over a hundred years, hundreds of thousands of blacks and whites have passed that statue every day and no one ever claimed to be offended until last year. What changed? Now the statue is gone, is the city better? is the crime rate down? are the potholes fixed? is the flooding stopped? Who is better off because a statue is gone? the covid shutdown and our incompetent mayor have damaged this city much more than any statue.

sure, there are some bad things in our history, but to pretend that they never happened is to risk repeating them. We need to learn from history, not try to rewrite it using today's perceptions of right and wrong.

Did no one complain or did you simply not listen? No one is pretending things in the past never happened. The argument is that we shouldn't be honoring those who did those things in the public square.

Asking a black man to pass by a statue honoring someone that fought to keep his ancestors in slavery as he goes to the courthouse to pay his taxes is wrong.

Just because "historically" we did it does not make it right.

such bullshit. In New Orleans we have had a statue of Lee on Lee circle for over a hundred years, hundreds of thousands of blacks and whites have passed that statue every day and no one ever claimed to be offended until last year. What changed? Now the statue is gone, is the city better? is the crime rate down? are the potholes fixed? is the flooding stopped? Who is better off because a statue is gone? the covid shutdown and our incompetent mayor have damaged this city much more than any statue.

sure, there are some bad things in our history, but to pretend that they never happened is to risk repeating them. We need to learn from history, not try to rewrite it using today's perceptions of right and wrong.

NOLA also has a statue of slaves in chains. When I saw that statue, my initial reaction was, well that was F'ed up!; instead of reacting that we should bring slavery back.
Once again, statues note history, not necessarily promote history!

Statues are placed as an honor to that person.

Only one perception and your only perception.
That could be a problem.

Except it's not just me.

It is not a majority consensus neither. It is a politically calculated one only.

Allowing blacks to eat at the white lunch counter wasn't a majority consensus either.

Bullshit! The Civil Rights Act surely was!!
You cannot credibly debate history, etc., especially since you know little about it.

That we got around the passing that act in no way disputes what I said. It only passed after many protests.

yep, it got passed in spite of democrat fillibusters and it was passed by republican votes with the majority of democrats voting no.

 

[Dogmaphobe]

"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past"

Instead of viewing Orwell's words as a cautionary tale, today's authoritarian left is apparently using them as an operating manual.



....well, except for the fact that it should now read ZHE who controls the past.......

 

[Mac-7]

You may see slavery as beneficial, I do not.

Slavery was extremely beneficial to black American citizens living today

 

[B. Kidd]

Asking a black man to pass by a statue honoring someone that fought to keep his ancestors in slavery as he goes to the courthouse to pay his taxes is wrong.

Just because "historically" we did it does not make it right.

such bullshit. In New Orleans we have had a statue of Lee on Lee circle for over a hundred years, hundreds of thousands of blacks and whites have passed that statue every day and no one ever claimed to be offended until last year. What changed? Now the statue is gone, is the city better? is the crime rate down? are the potholes fixed? is the flooding stopped? Who is better off because a statue is gone? the covid shutdown and our incompetent mayor have damaged this city much more than any statue.

sure, there are some bad things in our history, but to pretend that they never happened is to risk repeating them. We need to learn from history, not try to rewrite it using today's perceptions of right and wrong.

Did no one complain or did you simply not listen? No one is pretending things in the past never happened. The argument is that we shouldn't be honoring those who did those things in the public square.

Asking a black man to pass by a statue honoring someone that fought to keep his ancestors in slavery as he goes to the courthouse to pay his taxes is wrong.

Just because "historically" we did it does not make it right.

such bullshit. In New Orleans we have had a statue of Lee on Lee circle for over a hundred years, hundreds of thousands of blacks and whites have passed that statue every day and no one ever claimed to be offended until last year. What changed? Now the statue is gone, is the city better? is the crime rate down? are the potholes fixed? is the flooding stopped? Who is better off because a statue is gone? the covid shutdown and our incompetent mayor have damaged this city much more than any statue.

sure, there are some bad things in our history, but to pretend that they never happened is to risk repeating them. We need to learn from history, not try to rewrite it using today's perceptions of right and wrong.

NOLA also has a statue of slaves in chains. When I saw that statue, my initial reaction was, well that was F'ed up!; instead of reacting that we should bring slavery back.
Once again, statues note history, not necessarily promote history!

Statues are placed as an honor to that person.

Only one perception and your only perception.
That could be a problem.

Except it's not just me.

It is not a majority consensus neither. It is a politically calculated one only.

Allowing blacks to eat at the white lunch counter wasn't a majority consensus either.

Bullshit! The Civil Rights Act surely was!!
You cannot credibly debate history, etc., especially since you know little about it.

That we got around the passing that act in no way disputes what I said. It only passed after many protests.

yep, it got passed in spite of democrat fillibusters and it was passed by republican votes with the majority of democrats voting no.

Ironic, isn't it?

 

[pknopp]

Asking a black man to pass by a statue honoring someone that fought to keep his ancestors in slavery as he goes to the courthouse to pay his taxes is wrong.

Just because "historically" we did it does not make it right.

such bullshit. In New Orleans we have had a statue of Lee on Lee circle for over a hundred years, hundreds of thousands of blacks and whites have passed that statue every day and no one ever claimed to be offended until last year. What changed? Now the statue is gone, is the city better? is the crime rate down? are the potholes fixed? is the flooding stopped? Who is better off because a statue is gone? the covid shutdown and our incompetent mayor have damaged this city much more than any statue.

sure, there are some bad things in our history, but to pretend that they never happened is to risk repeating them. We need to learn from history, not try to rewrite it using today's perceptions of right and wrong.

Did no one complain or did you simply not listen? No one is pretending things in the past never happened. The argument is that we shouldn't be honoring those who did those things in the public square.

Asking a black man to pass by a statue honoring someone that fought to keep his ancestors in slavery as he goes to the courthouse to pay his taxes is wrong.

Just because "historically" we did it does not make it right.

such bullshit. In New Orleans we have had a statue of Lee on Lee circle for over a hundred years, hundreds of thousands of blacks and whites have passed that statue every day and no one ever claimed to be offended until last year. What changed? Now the statue is gone, is the city better? is the crime rate down? are the potholes fixed? is the flooding stopped? Who is better off because a statue is gone? the covid shutdown and our incompetent mayor have damaged this city much more than any statue.

sure, there are some bad things in our history, but to pretend that they never happened is to risk repeating them. We need to learn from history, not try to rewrite it using today's perceptions of right and wrong.

NOLA also has a statue of slaves in chains. When I saw that statue, my initial reaction was, well that was F'ed up!; instead of reacting that we should bring slavery back.
Once again, statues note history, not necessarily promote history!

Statues are placed as an honor to that person.

Only one perception and your only perception.
That could be a problem.

Except it's not just me.

It is not a majority consensus neither. It is a politically calculated one only.

Allowing blacks to eat at the white lunch counter wasn't a majority consensus either.

Bullshit! The Civil Rights Act surely was!!
You cannot credibly debate history, etc., especially since you know little about it.

That we got around the passing that act in no way disputes what I said. It only passed after many protests.

yep, it got passed in spite of democrat fillibusters and it was passed by republican votes with the majority of democrats voting no.

That's true but it doesn't have much to do with my argument. Many of the places that are defending keeping the statues in place are still largely registered (D).

I find it sad how for so many everything has to revolve around their politics. People don't matter, the only thing that matters is their politics. Politics have become a cult.

 

[pknopp]

You may see slavery as beneficial, I do not.

Slavery was extremely beneficial to black American citizens living today

I disagree.

 

[B. Kidd]

"He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past"

Instead of viewing Orwell's words as a cautionary tale, today's authoritarian left is apparently using them as an operating manual.



....well, except for the fact that it should now read ZHE who controls the past.......

I believe those are originally Karl Marx's words, not Orwell's.

 

[petro]

I shouldn't have to walk by state sponsored BLM propaganda or murals of the criminal George Floyd in Mpls either.
Yet, I won't be a pussy and tear them down. Simply walk by and ignore that shit.

 

[B. Kidd]

I shouldn't have to walk by stste sponsored BLM propaganda or murals of the criminal George Floyd in Mpls either.
Yet, I won't be a pussy and tear them down. Simply walk by and ignore that shit.

Now this is in the spirit of inclusivity.