The Nanking Massacre and Iris Chang's Book The Rape of Nanking

[JoeB131]

You idiot. Do you have any idea how many Chinese people died (and are still dying) because your idol insisted the communists win?

The Communists were going to win, regardless. The fact that Chiang needed constant inflows of cash to stay afloat was part of the problem.

American diplomats referred to him as "Cash My Check" and "Peanut"... This is not what you call an allied leader you respect.

The only reason why he didn't get that firing squad he rightly deserved was that we found it useful to set him up in Taiwan and keep China's UN vote out of Beijing's hands for a few decades.

 

[mikegriffith1]

* Chiang had several opportunities to reach an entirely fair, if not downright generous, peace deal with the Japanese, a deal that would have spared China from Communist takeover, that would have granted the Nationalists control over all of China, and that would not have required the Nationalists to formally recognize Japan's state in Manchuria but just to agree to leave it alone.

Again. I beat you over the head with a baseball bat, take your wallet, and promise to give you your credit cards back if you give me a $*%&$.

Again, this is an idiotic, erroneous analogy that bears no resemblance to the subject. The Japanese did not even start the war, were badly outnumbered when the Nationalists attacked, waited to send reinforcements precisely because they did not want war, etc., etc., etc. I've documented these facts, but you just keep ignoring them.

In 1935, U.S. Ambassador to Moscow William C. Bullitt sent a dispatch to Secretary of State Cordell Hull:

It is … the heartiest hope of the Soviet Government that the United States will become involved in war with Japan.... To think of the Soviet Union as a possible ally of the United States in case of war with Japan is to allow the wish to be father to the thought. The Soviet Union would certainly attempt to avoid becoming an ally until Japan had been thoroughly defeated and would then merely use the opportunity to acquire Manchuria and Sovietize China.​

James Perloff notes:

In the 1930s Japan moved troops into Manchuria (northern China). U.S. history books routinely call this an imperialistic invasion. While there is certainly truth in this interpretation, the books rarely mention that Japan was largely reacting, in its own version of the Monroe Doctrine, to the Soviets’ incursions into Asia — namely their seizure of Sinkiang and Outer Mongolia. Anthony Kubek, Chairman of Political Science at the University of Dallas, wrote in How the Far East Was Lost:​

It was apparent to Japanese statesmen that unless bastions of defense were built in Manchuria and Inner Mongolia, Communism would spread through all of North China and seriously threaten the security of Japan. To the Japanese, expansion in Manchuria was a national imperative.... But the Department of State seemed not to regard Japan as a bulwark against Soviet expansion in North China. As a matter of fact, not one word of protest was sent by the Department of State to the Soviet Union, despite her absorption of Sinkiang and Outer Mongolia, while at the same time Japan was censured for stationing troops in China.​

That by you is a generous offer.

Again, you're an idiot. Numerous historians from all across the spectrum have acknowledged that the Japanese offer was fair and even generous. Your answer? All those historians are "fascists!" You're an ignorant caveman.

* After Japan's surrender, Truman and Marshall imposed an arms embargo against the Nationalists, which gave the Communists crucial time to rearm and titled the war against the Nationalists. Truman and Marshall cut off weapons to Chiang because he refused to halt a major offensive against the Communists, and because he rejected their idiotic, treasonous demand that he form a coalition government with the Communists and that he agree to another truce with the Communists.

Given the Communists were just as instrumental in defeating the Japanese as he was... maybe more so... that wasn't an unreasonable request.

Holy freaking cow! Where do you get this fiction? The Communists were just as instrumental in beating the Japanese as the Nationalists were???!!! Again, you're an idiot. You have no clue what you're talking about, and you won't read anything to educate yourself.

But, just for the sake of others, can you cite one book, other than Communist Chinese books, that says that the Communists played just as much of a role, if not a bigger role, as the Nationalists did in beating the Japanese? Just one. Name just one.

Wow, trying to avoid a prolonged civil war through negotiations... what a bastard Truman was. Clearly, after 70 million dead in WWII, we just didn't have enough war.

Wow!!! Just when I thought you had reached the limits of ignorance and mythology, and contradiction, you peddle this howler. Your argument here displays an unbelievable level of ignorance, not to mention that it markedly contradicts your earlier vehement rejection of negotiation to end the Pacific War.

The Nationalist-Communist civil war had only resumed in August-September 1945, and Truman and Marshall cut off arms to Chiang just as he was about to deliver a crushing blow to the Communists. When Chiang was about to strike, he had already forced the Communists to abandon the key areas of Jiangsu, Shandong, Henan, and Shanxi, and was about to take Ralgan, which was the Red Army's major center near Peiping. It was at precisely this crucial point, this golden opportunity to end the war and establish a free China, that Truman and Marshall saved the Communists by cutting off arms to the Nationalists.

Chiang Kai-shek wrote: “Stilwell [the American general assigned by FDR to "help" the Nationalists] was in a conspiracy with the Communists to overthrow the Government” — an opinion shared by General Hurley, who stated: “The record of General Stilwell in China is irrevocably coupled in history with the conspiracy to overthrow the Nationalist Government of China, and to set up in its place a Communist regime — and all this movement was part of, and cannot be separated from, the Communist cell or apparatus that existed at the time in the Government in Washington.”

Perloff:

What “cell” did Ambassador Hurley refer to? In China, he was surrounded by a State Department clique favoring a Chinese communist takeover. Dean Acheson, who as a young attorney had represented Soviet interests in America, became Assistant Secretary of State in 1941. As such, he ensured the State Department’s Far Eastern Division was dominated by communists and pro-communists, including Alger Hiss (subsequently proven a Soviet spy); John Carter Vincent, director of the Office of Far Eastern Affairs, later identified by Daily Worker editor Louis Budenz as a communist; John Stewart Service, Foreign Service Officer in China who turned State Department information over to the Chinese communists, and was arrested by the FBI in the Amerasia spy case (about which more later); Foreign Service Officer John P. Davies, who consistently lobbied for the communists; Owen Lattimore, appointed U.S. adviser to Chiang Kai-shek but identified as a communist by ex-communists Whittaker Chambers and Elizabeth Bentley; and several others. . . .

Before leaving for China, Marshall revealed he already accepted the communist propaganda line. Five-star Fleet Admiral William Leahy reported: “I was present when Marshall was going to China. He said he was going to tell Chiang that he had to get on with the Communists or without help from us. He said the same thing when he got back.” And when told Mao Tse-tung and his followers were communists, Marshall remarked: “Don’t be ridiculous. These fellows are just old-fashioned agrarian reformers.”
When Marshall first arrived in China, the Nationalists outnumbered the communists 5-1 in both troops and rifles, and were successfully driving them back. Marshall, however, imposed a total of three truces — which the communists violated, allowing them to regroup, bring up Soviet supplies, and further train their guerillas. This expanded their control from 57 Chinese counties to 310. General Claire Chennault recounted the impact of Marshall’s truces:

North of Hankow some 200,000 government troops had surrounded 70,000 Communist troops and were beginning a methodical job of extermination. The Communists appealed to Marshall on the basis of his truce proposal, and arrangements were made for fighting to cease while the Communists marched out of the trap and on to Shantung Province, where a large Communist offensive began about a year later. On the East River near Canton some 100,000 Communist troops were trapped by government forces. The truce teams effected their release and allowed the Communists to march unmolested to Bias Bay where they boarded junks and sailed to Shantung.​

Marshall’s disastrous 15-month China mission ended in January 1947. Upon his return to the United States, President Truman rewarded his failures with appointment as Secretary of State. Marshall imposed a weapons embargo on the Nationalists, while the communists continued receiving a steady weapons supply from the USSR. Marshall boasted that he disarmed 39 anti-communist divisions “with a stroke of the pen.” This doomed Chinese freedom.​

What kind of a "conservative" are you to defend this horrendous treason, treason that enabled the Communists to take over China and to then kill at least 30 million people to consolidate their bloody rule?

I am not usually so blunt with people in this forum, but you are the biggest jerk I have ever encountered in this forum or in any other forum.

 

[JoeB131]

Again, this is an idiotic, erroneous analogy that bears no resemblance to the subject. The Japanese did not even start the war, were badly outnumbered when the Nationalists attacked, waited to send reinforcements precisely because they did not want war, etc., etc., etc. I've documented these facts, but you just keep ignoring them.

Because it's bullshit.. Look at a map. There's a whole fucking sea separating Japan from China... The Japs had to CROSS a sea to go invade China's territory. China didn't have a Navy, so there was no way they could fuck with the Japanese unless the Japanese crossed an ocean to go fuck with them.

But the Japanese were the nice guys, and the Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, Indonesians, Vietnamese, Burmese who all found themselves being attacked by Japan, they just misunderstood Hirohito's "Peaceful" intentions...

Seriously, dude, FOAD.

The Nationalist-Communist civil war had only resumed in August-September 1945, and Truman and Marshall cut off arms to Chiang just as he was about to deliver a crushing blow to the Communists. When Chiang was about to strike, he had already forced the Communists to abandon the key areas of Jiangsu, Shandong, Henan, and Shanxi, and was about to take Ralgan, which was the Red Army's major center near Peiping. It was at precisely this crucial point, this golden opportunity to end the war and establish a free China, that Truman and Marshall saved the Communists by cutting off arms to the Nationalists.

again- if "Cash My Check" couldn't win the war without us propping him up, maybe he shouldn't have been in power.

China under Chiang wasn't going to be "Free". It was going to be a fascist dictatorship run by a boob.

What kind of a "conservative" are you to defend this horrendous treason, treason that enabled the Communists to take over China and to then kill at least 30 million people to consolidate their bloody rule?

Uh, guy, why is the INTERNAL problems of China, our problem. "Peanut" wasn't able to rally the Chinese people behind him, no matter how much money we pumped into his corrupt and incompetent regime....

You do realize when your allies call you "Peanut" and "Cash My Check", they have no respect for you, so why should your own people?

Here was the thing... Peanut was a fucking Nazi. In fact, a lot of people in Nazi Germany wanted to ally with him instead of Japan, but then they realized the guy could pretty much fuck up a wet dream. The the US Spent years trying to prop up his sad as, fucked up regime.

What kind of a "conservative" are you to defend this horrendous treason, treason that enabled the Communists to take over China and to then kill at least 30 million people to consolidate their bloody rule?

I am not usually so blunt with people in this forum, but you are the biggest jerk I have ever encountered in this forum or in any other forum.

I'm going to blunt with you... you are a Nazi/Axis loving piece of shit... History turned out pretty much okay because the Allies won WWII. Your horseshit revisionism deserves the mocking I give it.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Again, this is an idiotic, erroneous analogy that bears no resemblance to the subject. The Japanese did not even start the war, were badly outnumbered when the Nationalists attacked, waited to send reinforcements precisely because they did not want war, etc., etc., etc. I've documented these facts, but you just keep ignoring them.

Because it's bullshit.. Look at a map. There's a whole fucking sea separating Japan from China... The Japs had to CROSS a sea to go invade China's territory. China didn't have a Navy, so there was no way they could fuck with the Japanese unless the Japanese crossed an ocean to go fuck with them.

But the Japanese were the nice guys, and the Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, Indonesians, Vietnamese, Burmese who all found themselves being attacked by Japan, they just misunderstood Hirohito's "Peaceful" intentions...

Seriously, dude, FOAD.

The Nationalist-Communist civil war had only resumed in August-September 1945, and Truman and Marshall cut off arms to Chiang just as he was about to deliver a crushing blow to the Communists. When Chiang was about to strike, he had already forced the Communists to abandon the key areas of Jiangsu, Shandong, Henan, and Shanxi, and was about to take Ralgan, which was the Red Army's major center near Peiping. It was at precisely this crucial point, this golden opportunity to end the war and establish a free China, that Truman and Marshall saved the Communists by cutting off arms to the Nationalists.

again- if "Cash My Check" couldn't win the war without us propping him up, maybe he shouldn't have been in power.

China under Chiang wasn't going to be "Free". It was going to be a fascist dictatorship run by a boob.

What kind of a "conservative" are you to defend this horrendous treason, treason that enabled the Communists to take over China and to then kill at least 30 million people to consolidate their bloody rule?

Uh, guy, why is the INTERNAL problems of China, our problem. "Peanut" wasn't able to rally the Chinese people behind him, no matter how much money we pumped into his corrupt and incompetent regime....

You do realize when your allies call you "Peanut" and "Cash My Check", they have no respect for you, so why should your own people?

Here was the thing... Peanut was a fucking Nazi. In fact, a lot of people in Nazi Germany wanted to ally with him instead of Japan, but then they realized the guy could pretty much fuck up a wet dream. The the US Spent years trying to prop up his sad as, fucked up regime.

What kind of a "conservative" are you to defend this horrendous treason, treason that enabled the Communists to take over China and to then kill at least 30 million people to consolidate their bloody rule?

I am not usually so blunt with people in this forum, but you are the biggest jerk I have ever encountered in this forum or in any other forum.

I'm going to blunt with you... you are a Nazi/Axis loving piece of shit... History turned out pretty much okay because the Allies won WWII. Your horseshit revisionism deserves the mocking I give it.

Good grief, what an idiot and jerk you are. You keep ignoring facts that refute your Stalinist-Maoist-FDR-Truman version of history. You ignored every fact in my previous reply and just resorted to your usual ignorant name-calling and PC syrup talking points.

I think about 90% of the planet would agree that China would have been better off under the Nationalists than under the Communists, but you seem to be in the 10% who think otherwise.

When the Nationalists fled to Taiwan and set up a government there, they established a free country and created one of the greatest economic success stories of the 20th century. The Communists had to establish massive patrols on the coast facing Taiwan to keep people from going to Taiwan in boats and rafts. The last time I checked, no one has ever accused the Nationalists of having killed 30 million people to consolidate their rule, as the Communists did on the mainland.

And I didn't see you cite any books to support your fantastic claim that the Communists did as much as, or more than, the Nationalists to defeat the Japanese. Again, books written by Chinese Communists do not count. I'll be reminding you periodically of your failure to find a single non-Communist book that supports your claim.

I've already answered your caveman posturing about the Axis losing vs. the Allies winning. Personally, I think it was tragic that FDR and Truman so mishandled the war that the Soviets were able to not only stay in power but to impose their rule on Eastern Europe. I also think it's tragic that the Communists took over China and proceeded to murder 30 million people to consolidate their rule. Your caveman brain can't seem to understand the idea of lesser of evils. Yes, the Nationalists were corrupt, but they were not nearly as bad as the Communists.

One of the best books on Truman’s handing over of China to the Communists and his betrayal of the Nationalists is Dr. Anthony Kubek’s classic work How the Far East Was Lost: American Policy and the Creation of Communist China, 1941-1949 (Chicago: Henry Regnery Co., 1963). Dr. Kubek was the chairman of the political science department at the University of Dallas. Kirkus Reviews noted that historians who disagree with Kubek’s conclusions “will have their work cut out for them refuting all the damning detail in Dr. Kubek's charges.” Here are some excerpts from Dr. Kubek’s book (pp. 285-296):

 

[JoeB131]

Good grief, what an idiot and jerk you are. You keep ignoring facts that refute your Stalinist-Maoist-FDR-Truman version of history.

You mean the version of history that ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

History doesn't have "Versions". History just happens... and you can debate why things happened, but you really can't debate what happened.

What happened was- wait for it - the National Government of Peanut was inept in stopping the Japanese from invading, and when the Japanese lost, people looked to the Communists for answers...

That's history.

I think about 90% of the planet would agree that China would have been better off under the Nationalists than under the Communists, but you seem to be in the 10% who think otherwise.

Why would anyone think that. Under the Nationalists, the country was invaded by Japan and splintered into dozens of warlord states.

Heck, Taiwan couldn't wait to vote the Kuomintang out when they were allowed to finally vote.

When the Nationalists fled to Taiwan and set up a government there, they established a free country and created one of the greatest economic success stories of the 20th century. The Communists had to establish massive patrols on the coast facing Taiwan to keep people from going to Taiwan in boats and rafts. The last time I checked, no one has ever accused the Nationalists of having killed 30 million people to consolidate their rule, as the Communists did on the mainland.

ONly because they didn't have 30 million people to kill...

And, yeah, when the US Props your Island up for decades to keep your UN vote... I guess you'll have a good time.

I'm actually more impressed with what the Communists did. They took a fractured, war torn nation and turned it into the world's largest economy..

One of the best books on Truman’s handing over of China to the Communists and his betrayal of the Nationalists is Dr. Anthony Kubek’s classic work

Wow, another White Person telling Asian people their business... They should be so happy to have White People telling them how they should live their lives...

 

[mikegriffith1]

Good grief, what an idiot and jerk you are. You keep ignoring facts that refute your Stalinist-Maoist-FDR-Truman version of history.

You mean the version of history that ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

History doesn't have "Versions". History just happens... and you can debate why things happened, but you really can't debate what happened.

This is just comical.

In your version of history, the Communists did just as much to defeat the Japanese as did the Nationalists, if not more. That's utter fiction. Again, find me one book, other than a Chinese Communist book, that supports this myth.

What happened was- wait for it - the National Government of Peanut was inept in stopping the Japanese from invading, and when the Japanese lost, people looked to the Communists for answers... That's history.

LOL! That's the Chinese Communist and Soviet version of the war!

Did you read the quote from Dr. Kubek's book? The Nationalists had the Communists on the ropes and were getting ready to deliver a crushing blow when Truman and Marshall, implementing Soviet policy goals, cut off arms to Chiang's army.

I think about 90% of the planet would agree that China would have been better off under the Nationalists than under the Communists, but you seem to be in the 10% who think otherwise.

Why would anyone think that.

Uh, my heavens, why wouldn't they? When the Pacific War ended, the Nationalists cut their ties to the Soviets and focused on defeating the Communists. The Nationalists were not Jeffersonians, but they were not nearly as bad as the Communists. No one in their right mind would deny that Taiwan under Chiang's rule was far, far more tolerant, moderate, and capitalist than was Communist rule in China.

Under the Nationalists, the country was invaded by Japan and splintered into dozens of warlord states.

Not on this planet. The war lords controlled most of China long before the Japanese established any kind of control in Manchuria and long before the Sino-Japanese War began. Chiang spent his first several years in power taking most of northern China away from the warlords at a huge cost in blood and treasure.

Chiang's big mistake was bowing to FDR and Stalin's pressure not to make peace with the Japanese. Stalin was desperate to avoid a Sino-Japanese peace because he knew this would free up dozens of divisions of the Japanese army to threaten his eastern flank.

Heck, Taiwan couldn't wait to vote the Kuomintang out when they were allowed to finally vote.

You don't know what in the world you're talking about. Where are you getting this nonsense? From Chinese Communist sources? Just FYI, the Kuomintang voluntarily began allowing general elections in 1986 and had already been allowing local elections since the early 1970s. A Kuomintang candidate has won the presidency twice in the last 20 years alone. The Kuomintang is still a major party on Taiwan.

When the Nationalists fled to Taiwan and set up a government there, they established a free country and created one of the greatest economic success stories of the 20th century. The Communists had to establish massive patrols on the coast facing Taiwan to keep people from going to Taiwan in boats and rafts. The last time I checked, no one has ever accused the Nationalists of having killed 30 million people to consolidate their rule, as the Communists did on the mainland.

Only because they didn't have 30 million people to kill...

What's your basis for making this absurd claim? Are you from mainland China? Is your family? Is that why you keep repeating Chinese Communist propaganda about the Nationalists, Japan, and Taiwan?

Red China had to maintain massive naval patrols in the Taiwan Strait for decades because so many Chinese were trying to flee Communist tyranny and get to Taiwan by boat or raft, since they knew that on Taiwan they would have far more freedom than they did in China and would not have to worry about bloody purges, summary executions, and starvation.

And, yeah, when the US Props your Island up for decades to keep your UN vote... I guess you'll have a good time.

Another Chinese Communist talking point. Again, I ask you seriously: Are you from China? Is your family from China?

FYI, Taiwan prospered mainly because Chiang adopted a free enterprise system and opened his nation to international trade.

Under Kuomintang rule, there was freedom of religion, substantial freedom of the press (unless you were pro-Communist), freedom of association, and a viable judicial system with checks and balances. My church was able to establish missions on Taiwan, as were many other churches, during Chiang's rule, while Red China banned Christian churches and began rounding up Christians and either jailing them or executing them.

I'm actually more impressed with what the Communists did. They took a fractured, war torn nation and turned it into the world's largest economy.

What incredible idiocy and mythology. Do you just not know that the Communists proceeded to kill at least 30 million people over the next two decades to consolidate their rule? Go talk to Hong Kong about Chinese Communist rule. Go talk to the families of the students who were murdered in Tiananmen Square in 1989--tell them how impressed you are with Red China.

Under Mao, China suffered from famine that killed millions and mass murders that killed at least 30 million. Only in the last 20 years or so, when Chinese leaders adopted free market principles in key economic sectors, did China finally began to make substantial economic progress, but that progress was not accompanied by any substantive democratic reforms. China remains a brutal totalitarian regime. There is no freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of association, etc.

One of the best books on Truman’s handing over of China to the Communists and his betrayal of the Nationalists is Dr. Anthony Kubek’s classic work

Wow, another White Person telling Asian people their business... They should be so happy to have White People telling them how they should live their lives...

LOL! Huh? Just Huh? This is just hilarious. That's your only comment about Dr. Kubek's documentation of Truman's betrayal of China to the Communists? Oh, wait: I forget: You think the Communists did a great job in China--never mind the 30 million-plus people they murdered to consolidate their power.

 

[jasonlee3071]

I remember reading this book. It was a short one for a historical book. I don't think I could sit through and read it again as the details are really nauseating or stomach churning. The one remarkable thing I remember from reading this story is that the main hero was actually a Nazi. A German businessman who ran a company in Nanking where this happened. He would actually go out of his way to save people being killed or raped by these Japanese bastards by flashing his swastika arm band in front of their faces.
Because the Japanese soldiers wouldn't dare to attack or do anything to a foriegner especially a European (being German and a member of an allied nation with Japan may have helped also). Also he opened his property up to use as a refuge for these same people who were injured by the maurading Japs.

 

[JoeB131]

This is just comical.

In your version of history, the Communists did just as much to defeat the Japanese as did the Nationalists, if not more. That's utter fiction. Again, find me one book, other than a Chinese Communist book, that supports this myth.

Actually, that was the opinion of the OSS at the time, that the Communists were doing more to defeat Japan than Peanut was.

Seriously, guy, what John Birch Society Hole did you crawl out of.

What's your basis for making this absurd claim? Are you from mainland China? Is your family? Is that why you keep repeating Chinese Communist propaganda about the Nationalists, Japan, and Taiwan?

Weren't you the one who argued earlier in this thread that the KMT was just as bad as Japan because they flooded some land and some people died? Please try to keep your story straight if Peanut was a hero or a villian.

What incredible idiocy and mythology. Do you just not know that the Communists proceeded to kill at least 30 million people over the next two decades to consolidate their rule? .

First, you only get to that 30 million number if you count famines and shit. Second, um, civil wars in China always kind of tend to suck. The Taiping Rebellion (Led by some nut who thought he was Jesus Brother) killed 20 million people.

Go talk to Hong Kong about Chinese Communist rule. Go talk to the families of the students who were murdered in Tiananmen Square in 1989--tell them how impressed you are with Red China.

You mean the British Colony they just liberated, or the spoiled kids who thought they could take on tanks?

Why is any of this MY problem?

Under Mao, China suffered from famine that killed millions and mass murders that killed at least 30 million. Only in the last 20 years or so, when Chinese leaders adopted free market principles in key economic sectors, did China finally began to make substantial economic progress, but that progress was not accompanied by any substantive democratic reforms. China remains a brutal totalitarian regime. There is no freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of association, etc.

I thought you wingnuts said you can't have free markets without democracy! Come one, once more, GET YOUR FUCKING STORY STRAIGHT.

LOL! Huh? Just Huh? This is just hilarious. That's your only comment about Dr. Kubek's documentation of Truman's betrayal of China to the Communists? Oh, wait: I forget: You think the Communists did a great job in China--never mind the 30 million-plus people they murdered to consolidate their power.

I would be more interested in what Chinese people think about their history than some white guy from the John Birch Society.

Then again, the only movie I ever saw about the Nanking Massacre was largely told from the perspective of white people who were inconvenienced...

White People... CHECK YOUR PRIVILEGE!!!!

 

[Unkotare]

....
Because the Japanese soldiers wouldn't dare to attack or do anything to a foriegner [sic] especially a European......

Want to think about that statement again?

 

[mikegriffith1]

You idiot. Do you have any idea how many Chinese people died (and are still dying) because your idol insisted the communists win?

The Communists were going to win, regardless.

Actually, that's just not true. The Nationalists had the war well in hand and were poised to strike a crushing blow against the Communists when Truman and Marshall intervened to save the Communists. Dr. Kubek:

The fact that Chiang needed constant inflows of cash to stay afloat was part of the problem.

Umm, actually, that Chinese Communist talking point isn't true either. Chiang was able to finance a large part of his operations from tax revenues collected in the areas he controlled, which by 1946 consisted of most of China proper.

The Communists, on the other hand, were getting massive amounts of weapons and supplies from the Soviets.

American diplomats referred to him as "Cash My Check" and "Peanut"... This is not what you call an allied leader you respect.

Only scum like Stillwell attacked Chiang in this manner. Others, such as Hurley and Leahy, ardently supported Chiang and vehemently objected to Truman and Marshall's sellout to the Communists. Read Kubek's book.

The only reason why he didn't get that firing squad he rightly deserved was that we found it useful to set him up in Taiwan and keep China's UN vote out of Beijing's hands for a few decades.

"Firing squad"???!!! Either you or some close relatives are from China, right? If Chiang deserved a firing squad for doing FDR and Truman's bidding against the Japanese and for trying to destroy the Communists once and for all, what did Mao Tsetung deserve?

Your selective morality is disgusting and seems to always come down on the side of the Communists, whether it be the Soviet Union or Communist China.

Oh, yes, Chiang had issues with corruption, and the Nationalists killed slightly more people than did the Japanese, but the Communists were far worse than the Nationalists or the Japanese. The Nationalists and the Japanese believed in free enterprise and were far more moderate in their policies on civil liberties than were the Communists.

When it came to the numbers of people killed, the Nationalists were slightly worse than the Japanese. But when it came to civil liberties, the Nationalists were somewhat better than the Japanese. When it came to economic development, the Japanese were somewhat better than the Nationalists, but both were infinitely better than the Communists. The Communists caused millions of deaths just by their disastrous Marxist agricultural policies alone after they came to power. Under Mao's rule, China suffered from economic stagnation, not to mention from bloody purges that killed tens of millions of people.

Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years'

 

[JoeB131]

Axis Silly strikes again.

Actually, that's just not true. The Nationalists had the war well in hand and were poised to strike a crushing blow against the Communists when Truman and Marshall intervened to save the Communists. Dr. Kubek:

This is where you are a little delusional... A negotiated peace was desired because if the Communists looked liked they were about to be crushed, the USSR would have intervened to save them.

Only scum like Stillwell attacked Chiang in this manner. Others, such as Hurley and Leahy, ardently supported Chiang and vehemently objected to Truman and Marshall's sellout to the Communists. Read Kubek's book.

Stillwell was the guy who understood how absolutely worthless Chiang was...

Stilwell was infuriated also by the rampant corruption of the Chiang regime. In his diary, which he faithfully kept, Stilwell began to note the corruption and the amount of money ($380,584,000 in 1944 dollars) being wasted upon the procrastinating Chiang and his government. The Cambridge History of China, for instance, estimates that some 60%–70% of Chiang's Kuomintang conscripts did not make it through their basic training, with some 40% deserting and the remaining 20% dying of starvation before full induction into the military. Eventually, Stilwell's belief that the generalissimo and his generals were incompetent and corrupt reached such proportions that Stilwell sought to cut off Lend-Lease aid to China.[34] Stilwell even ordered Office of Strategic Services (OSS) officers to draw up contingency plans to assassinate Chiang Kai-shek after he heard Roosevelt's casual remarks regarding the possible defeat of Chiang by either internal or external enemies, and if this happened to replace Chiang with someone else to continue the Chinese resistance against Japan.[35]

And then you have this Gem from Axis Silly

When it came to the numbers of people killed, the Nationalists were slightly worse than the Japanese. But when it came to civil liberties, the Nationalists were somewhat better than the Japanese. When it came to economic development, the Japanese were somewhat better than the Nationalists, but both were infinitely better than the Communists. The Communists caused millions of deaths just by their disastrous Marxist agricultural policies alone after they came to power. Under Mao's rule, China suffered from economic stagnation, not to mention from bloody purges that killed tens of millions of people.

Actually, under Mao, China went from a fractured nation torn by decades of war and factionalism to being a world-class power. The most brilliant moment in our diplomatic history was when Nixon went to China... because he was the only one who could.

But I can see your confusion, Axis Silly, about whether your love the Japanese Fascists or the Chinese Fascists more... it's a tough choice if you think Fascism is nifty.

 

[mikegriffith1]

For those who might be interested, I have uploaded most of chapter 14 from Dr. Anthony Kubek's book How the Far East Was Lost:

http://miketgriffith.com/files/kubekchapter14.pdf

I see JoeB131 is doubling down on his shocking defense of mass murderer Mao Tsetung and Communist China. I have never seen anyone but Chinese Communists defend Mao and Red China the way JoeB131 is defending them. Even most radical American leftists will not deny Mao's brutality and mass murders. But JoeB131 is doing exactly that.

Here are a few of the hundreds of sources on the brutal tyranny that Mao and his fellow Communists imposed on China after Truman and Marshall handed the country to them:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ving-historys-greatest-mass-murderer-his-due/

The Legacy of Mao Zedong is Mass Murder

Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years'

The Worst Mass Murder of All Time

Mao Zedong - Conservapedia

NoCookies | The Australian

Mao, the mass murderer, and his supporters | Eamonn Fitzgerald: Rainy Day

Hitler to Stalin: The most murderous regimes in the world | Daily Mail Online

MAO AND TERROR

China Should Spurn Mass Murderer Mao

And here are some articles on the stark contrast between Mao's brutal tyranny and Chiang's Republic of China on Taiwan:

Why Taiwan Grew Rich While the Mainland Starved | José Niño

https://www.nyulawreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/NYULawReview-75-2-Carolan.pdf

Judgment of history - Taiwan Today

 

[JoeB131]

For those who might be interested, I have uploaded most of chapter 14 from Dr. Anthony Kubek's book How the Far East Was Lost:

Bunch of white guys talking down to Asians...

I see JoeB131 is doubling down on his shocking defense of mass murderer Mao Tsetung and Communist China. I have never seen anyone but Chinese Communists defend Mao and Red China the way JoeB131 is defending them. Even most radical American leftists will not deny Mao's brutality and mass murders. But JoeB131 is doing exactly that.

Here are a few of the hundreds of sources on the brutal tyranny that Mao and his fellow Communists imposed on China after Truman and Marshall handed the country to them:

Mao Zedong inherited a broken country and made it a world power. He was a bastard in the way Stalin was a bastard. But e can thank Stalin for Hitler not winning the war.

(Oh, wait, Axis Silly, you probably think that's a bad thing.)

As for your sources, most of them are crazy right wing sources like the heritage foundation and Epoch Times.. Seems if his "Brutality" was so self-evident, you'd find liberal or neutral sources...

The reality- Chinese see him as the father of Modern China...

 

[jasonlee3071]

.[/QUOTE]Want to think about that statement again?[/QUOTE]

Don't really have to. Read the book by Iris Chang. She tells the whole story about him and the other foriegners who were in China at the time. There were even American missionaries there while this incident was occuring. None of them were attacked or raped by the Japanese soldiers.
For diplomatic/political reasons Americans(civilians) and Europeans were not harmed or attacked by the Japanese military.

 

[Unkotare]

.

Want to think about that statement again?[/QUOTE]

Don't really have to. Read the book by Iris Chang. ...[/QUOTE]


That book has long since been discredited. Try reading this entire thread.

 

[Unkotare]

For those who might be interested, I have uploaded most of chapter 14 from Dr. Anthony Kubek's book How the Far East Was Lost:

Bunch of white guys talking down to Asians...

I see JoeB131 is doubling down on his shocking defense of mass murderer Mao Tsetung and Communist China. I have never seen anyone but Chinese Communists defend Mao and Red China the way JoeB131 is defending them. Even most radical American leftists will not deny Mao's brutality and mass murders. But JoeB131 is doing exactly that.

Here are a few of the hundreds of sources on the brutal tyranny that Mao and his fellow Communists imposed on China after Truman and Marshall handed the country to them:

Mao Zedong inherited a broken country and made it a world power. ...

No he didn’t, you Ignorant commie idiot.

 

[JoeB131]

No he didn’t, you Ignorant commie idiot.

Okay... I guess if you are completely ignorant of Chinese history from the Opium War until 1949, you could make this statement.

This is what China looked like before the Japanese invaded Manchuria...

Shit. That doesn't look good.

Here it is in 1946 when Axis Mikey claims Peanut was doing such a great job running the country until he was foiled by those darned Americans.

That's kind of messed up... No wonder the Commies won.

 

[Unkotare]

For those who might be interested, I have uploaded most of chapter 14 from Dr. Anthony Kubek's book How the Far East Was Lost:

Bunch of white guys talking down to Asians...

I see JoeB131 is doubling down on his shocking defense of mass murderer Mao Tsetung and Communist China. I have never seen anyone but Chinese Communists defend Mao and Red China the way JoeB131 is defending them. Even most radical American leftists will not deny Mao's brutality and mass murders. But JoeB131 is doing exactly that.

Here are a few of the hundreds of sources on the brutal tyranny that Mao and his fellow Communists imposed on China after Truman and Marshall handed the country to them:

Mao Zedong inherited a broken country and made it a world power. ...

No he didn’t, you Ignorant commie idiot.

China was never anything like a world power under mao. All he managed to do was destroy much of the country’s culture and history while overseeing the deaths of tens of millions through murder and famine. Of course such a monster would be a favorite of yours. It wasn’t until Deng that China started down a path to prosperity.

 

[JoeB131]

China was never anything like a world power under mao. All he managed to do was destroy much of the country’s culture and history while overseeing the deaths of tens of millions through murder and famine. Of course such a monster would be a favorite of yours. It wasn’t until Deng that China started down a path to prosperity.

Let's see.

Under Mao..

China became a nuclear power.
It had one of the worlds' largest armies.
the President of the United States felt the need to travel there on bended knee to make good relations with them.

So this is kind of where you are confused...

 

[mikegriffith1]

For those who might be interested, I have uploaded most of chapter 14 from Dr. Anthony Kubek's book How the Far East Was Lost:

Bunch of white guys talking down to Asians...

I see JoeB131 is doubling down on his shocking defense of mass murderer Mao Tsetung and Communist China. I have never seen anyone but Chinese Communists defend Mao and Red China the way JoeB131 is defending them. Even most radical American leftists will not deny Mao's brutality and mass murders. But JoeB131 is doing exactly that.

Here are a few of the hundreds of sources on the brutal tyranny that Mao and his fellow Communists imposed on China after Truman and Marshall handed the country to them:

Mao Zedong inherited a broken country and made it a world power. ...

No he didn’t, you Ignorant commie idiot.

China was never anything like a world power under mao. All he managed to do was destroy much of the country’s culture and history while overseeing the deaths of tens of millions through murder and famine. Of course such a monster would be a favorite of yours. It wasn’t until Deng that China started down a path to prosperity.

The guy is just comical. In an earlier reply he said Japan's "invasion" led to the widespread rule of warlords, but in a reply today he shows a map that proves that China was already largely governed by warlords before the Japanese established a state in Manchuria.

He does seem to be a Communist. He talks like some Chinese Communists I've encountered online. A favorite tactic of Communists is to accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being fascists, and JoeB131, as we've seen, has been brazen about this for the last week or so.

The guy's just a lying jerk. He keeps pretending that all the Axis nations were like Nazi Germany, and he's resorted to making the sick and bizarre claim that I'm pro-Hitler/pro-Nazi because I contend that we should have made Japan our ally, that we should not have rescued the Soviet Union, and that we should not have expelled Japan from Korea, Vietnam, and Manchuria.

You know he's very far left when he claims that the highly respected and scholarly Heritage Foundation is a far-right, fringe organization. I guess he didn't notice that some of my sources on Mao's tyranny were liberal sources, including the Washington Post. I get the impression that he doesn't read many replies but skims over them before he answers them--most of the time he simply ignores evidence that's been presented to him.

Anyway, for those who prefer videos to articles, here are some online videos on Mao and Communist China:











China’s Great Leap Backward

Mao's "Stinking 9" Hatred

Socialism kills: cannibalism & torture in Mao Zedong’s China