The Qur'an is the word of God Almighty

[Hollie]

I speak as a Muslim.

The Quran was given not to confirm the Torah and the Bible; but to correct their errors and corruptions. .....

The Qur'an was not sent for that. The Qur'an is an honor from God Almighty. In this case the honoured person is Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family), and the Qur'an is his book.

The Qur'an existed in pre-eternity, and it was revealed to Muhammad step by step, as events occured during his lifetime, until all of the book was revealed to him (peace be upon him and his family).

The Gospel, the Torah and the Psalms were revealed respectively to Jesus, Moses and David. Other prophets like Abraham or Seth were also revealed other books. Whatever was revealed in those books is contained in the Holy Qur'an. The Holy Qur'an also contains additional revelation. If those prophets lived at the time of Muhammad, they would have had to follow his book, his law and his way.

Or! the Quran was all made up by Muhammad to serve his own purposes. Besides I just remembered there is a verse that says the Quran must be from God because it confirms all the previous messages. I will try to find that verse for you.

I think this you said above kind of sums up all you said. Everyone who knows a little about Islam knows about the Night Journey, and the holiness and the heavenliness of Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family). As he declared, he is the last of the prophets, the Seal of the prophets, the beloved of God Almighty and the Qur'an was revealed to him by God Almighty. God Almighty says the Qur'an is the Book.

Umm, no. The Koran did not exist "pre-eternity". That's silly and absurd. The Koran did not exist until Mohammud (may the vultures pick at his bones), invented the politico-religious Ideology of Islamism.


There were many religions that existed prior to Islam; Judaism and Christianity the two most obvious examples. As we know, Mohammud (may the vultures pick at his bones), stole ruthlessly from both those earlier faiths. That's evident in his formulation of Islam. We also have the Greek or Roman pantheons as examples of religions that existed prior to Islam.

 

[irosie91]

If it's in the Quran we muslims believe it 100% ......

I speak as a Muslim.

The Quran was given not to confirm the Torah and the Bible; but to correct their errors and corruptions. .....

The Qur'an was not sent for that. The Qur'an is an honor from God Almighty. In this case the honoured person is Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family), and the Qur'an is his book.

The Qur'an existed in pre-eternity, and it was revealed to Muhammad step by step, as events occured during his lifetime, until all of the book was revealed to him (peace be upon him and his family).

The Gospel, the Torah and the Psalms were revealed respectively to Jesus, Moses and David. Other prophets like Abraham or Seth were also revealed other books. Whatever was revealed in those books is contained in the Holy Qur'an. The Holy Qur'an also contains additional revelation. If those prophets lived at the time of Muhammad, they would have had to follow his book, his law and his way.

Or! the Quran was all made up by Muhammad to serve his own purposes. Besides I just remembered there is a verse that says the Quran must be from God because it confirms all the previous messages. I will try to find that verse for you.

I think this you said above kind of sums up all you said. Everyone who knows a little about Islam knows about the Night Journey, and the holiness and the heavenliness of Muhammad (peace be upon him and his family). As he declared, he is the last of the prophets, the Seal of the prophets, the beloved of God Almighty and the Qur'an was revealed to him by God Almighty. God Almighty says the Qur'an is the Book.

Umm, no. The Koran did not exist "pre-eternity". That's silly and absurd. The Koran did not exist until Mohammud (may the vultures pick at his bones), invented the politico-religious Ideology of Islamism.


There were many religions that existed prior to Islam; Judaism and Christianity the two most obvious examples. As we know, Mohammud (may the vultures pick at his bones), stole ruthlessly from both those earlier faiths. That's evident in his formulation of Islam. We also have the Greek or Roman pantheons as examples of religions that existed prior to Islam.

Hollie----Long ago I learned about the core of Islamic
world view. Islam exists upon the notion that
EVERYONE ELSE IN THE WORLD IS OUT TO DESTROY
***)))) ISLAAAAAM ((((***
which should, properly, be the RULING CREED OF
THE WORLD. The "ENEMY" thing justifies conquest
by murder, pillage, rape and brutal exploitation. The rest is commentary. Muslims have a
dilemma. Muhummad's first priority was ESTABLISH
HIS OWN RULE------he needed a religion and lacked the talent to author it's origin so he grafted pre cooked material
onto himself. He even decided that it would add to his
glamour if he could claim a lineage----he chose Abraham.
His big problem was obvious discrepancies in his cobbled
up creed and history-------THUS--he needed a kind of
unifying RESOLUTION --------simple----everyone else is
LYING. Not only are they ALL LYING----they lie continuously. ----Thus the prevalent teaching----"there are
thousands of 'versions' of the bible"-----and more versions
on the way. It's all lies to justify DESTRUCTiON OF ISLAM.
believe it or not------apparently sane muslims believe this
world view. I grew up in a small USA town------where
most of the people know nothing about islam and don't
care to. HOWEVER muslims I encountered over
decades truly believe that "destroy islam" is among
the first words taught to Kaffir children

 

[Sunni Man]

Dude you havent answered the most important question put to you. If the quran is the word of god why does it include proven falsehoodslike noah being 950 years old?

Whom and when was Noah's age proven untrue?? ......

 

[irosie91]

[QUOTE="Hollie, post: 10291521,

Whom and when was Noah's age proven untrue?? ...... [/QUOTE]


***********A P O P T O S I S*************

<<<<< fact of life

 

[Sunni Man]

G-d creates life and G-d can extent it. .....

 

[Dajjal]

G-d creates life and G-d can extent it. .....

See my post 143 which states that the age of Noah in the bible was a mistake, and the quran copied it.

When translating Genesis they screwed up the numbering system. This shows directly that the Quran copied a translation of Genesis and therefore the Quran didn't come from God.

 

[Sunni Man]

Again, the Quran was given perfectly and contains no errors or mistakes. ......

 

[irosie91]

Again, the Quran was given perfectly and contains no errors or mistakes. ......

It's a disgusting mess-------a whole book devoted to the glorification of a thieving rapist pig

 

[Dajjal]

Here is a piece I wrote on Muhammad trying to justify himself.

Was Muhammad a Liar, madman or prophet. My reading of the quran is that he was a calculating liar who stole the bible stories to scare people into following him. One reason I think this is that he tries to justify himself many times in the quran, as proved by the following quotes. A true prophet would not waste space in the final message to all mankind trying to justify himself to his critics as Muhammad obviously does. Added to that he wrote the whole sura 111 dedicated to cursing his own aunt and uncle, because they did not believe in him.
7.184 Do they not reflect? Their companion is not seized with madness: he is but a perspicuous warner.
15.6 They say: "O thou to whom the Message is being revealed! truly thou art mad (or possessed)!
15.7 Why bring you not angels unto us, if you are of the truthful?
21.5 Nay," they say, "(these are) medleys of dream! - Nay, He forged it! - Nay, He is (but) a poet! Let him then bring us a Sign like the ones that were sent to (Prophets) of old!"
36.69 We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear:
37.36 And say: "What! shall we give up our gods for the sake of a Poet possessed?"
44.14 Yet they turn away from him and say: "Tutored (by others), a man possessed!"

50.30 Or do they say:- "A Poet! we await for him some calamity (hatched) by Time!"
52.29 Therefore proclaim thou the praises (of thy Lord): for by the Grace of thy Lord, thou art no (vulgar) soothsayer, nor art thou one possessed.
68.2 Thou art not, by the Grace of thy Lord, mad or possessed.
68.51 And the Unbelievers would almost trip thee up with their eyes when they hear the Message; and they say: "Surely he is possessed!"
69.41 It is not the word of a poet: little it is ye believe!
81.22 and your comrade is not mad.
81.25 Nor is it the word of an evil spirit accursed.
Here are three verses that show many people of Muhammads own time did not believe in him, but he tried to justify himself claiming the holy spirit taught him. But he mistook the meaning of the holy spirit in the bible, thinking the angel Gabriel was the messenger. But the holy spirit is part of the trinity, and it spoke though Jesus and the diciples. The angel Gabriel only announced the coming of John the baptist and Jesus, but gave no message to them.

16.101 When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.
16.102 Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
16.103 We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.

 

[irosie91]

The Koran was written more than 100 years after muhummad died. I really do not believe the "quotations" any more than
I believe the dialogue between HECTOR and his wife-----
that is presented in the Odyssey. I do believe the general
events did take place------the thieving, the killing, the raping---etc. Just as I do believe that there was a war in Troy. ----
the writing of the Koran is the big lie------very contrived for
justification of brutal conquest

 

[Sunni Man]

The entire Quran was memorized by thousands of people during Muhammad's life time. He personally instructed them as to sentence structure and exact pronunciation. And this was passed down from generation to generation until it was finally written down into book form.

Even today their are millions of muslims around the globe who have memorized the entire Quran and can recite it by heart. ......

 

[Dajjal]

The entire Quran was memorized by thousands of people during Muhammad's life time. He personally instructed them as to sentence structure and exact pronunciation. And this was passed down from generation to generation until it was finally written down into book form.

Even today their are millions of muslims around the globe who have memorized the entire Quran and can recite it by heart. ......

What about the four Qurans that were edited into one by a khalif. who's name I think was Uthman? and what about the pages that were eaten by a goat? And why don't Muslims read the text using their intelligence instead of reciting it parrot fashion? Because anyone who uses their brain to analyse the texts will soon see problems with it.

 

[Dot Com]

This thread is better than Jeremiahs

 

[Sunni Man]

What about the four Qurans that were edited into one by a khalif. who's name I think was Uthman? and what about the pages that were eaten by a goat? And why don't Muslims read the text using their intelligence instead of reciting it parrot fashion? Because anyone who uses their brain to analyse the texts will soon see problems with it.

Islam has 1.2 billion adherents and growing.

We have no problem with the Quran. ......

 

[Dajjal]

What about the four Qurans that were edited into one by a khalif. who's name I think was Uthman? and what about the pages that were eaten by a goat? And why don't Muslims read the text using their intelligence instead of reciting it parrot fashion? Because anyone who uses their brain to analyse the texts will soon see problems with it.

Islam has 1.2 billion adherents and growing.

We have no problem with the Quran. ......

Yea, and its enough to make me weep. Especially since a growing number of Muslims are running around with ak47 assault rifles, and shooting and beheading non Muslims. Because the Quran tells them to fight in the way of Allah. I want to explain to them that Muhammad has been dead for fourteen hundred years, and he does not need them to fight his battles for him any more.

 

[irosie91]

The entire Quran was memorized by thousands of people during Muhammad's life time. He personally instructed them as to sentence structure and exact pronunciation. And this was passed down from generation to generation until it was finally written down into book form.

Even today their are millions of muslims around the globe who have memorized the entire Quran and can recite it by heart. ......

BS waste of time. For those who do not know----
muslims point to the fact that muslims waste their children's lives by forcing them to memorize the sing song crap of the
Koran as if it is a SINGULAR miracle Memorizing ----
is the old form of "education"-------kinda meaningless-----proves nothing other than lack of printing presses

btw----my hubby memorized the bible in his youth-----he was born in a community of jews that was isolated in what BECAME a shariah shit hole----by the invasion of pigs and dogs from Arabia-------but had been a jewish community in that land-----for more than 1000 years before the rapist pig was born People in that land did not have printing presses----they wrote and memorized and wrote and memorized-------he even knows how to make paper and ink

An interesting factoid -----he told me his father----who knew
it all by heart warned him-----ALWAYS USE THE BOOK-----
relying on memory leads to errors that do not go away. He never does the conglomeration of special Friday nite prayers that he knows by heart without gazing into the book.

back then ----like thousands of years ago-----greek kids memorized HOMER too

 

[irosie91]

What about the four Qurans that were edited into one by a khalif. who's name I think was Uthman? and what about the pages that were eaten by a goat? And why don't Muslims read the text using their intelligence instead of reciting it parrot fashion? Because anyone who uses their brain to analyse the texts will soon see problems with it.

Islam has 1.2 billion adherents and growing.

We have no problem with the Quran. ......

Yea, and its enough to make me weep. Especially since a growing number of Muslims are running around with ak47 assault rifles, and shooting and beheading non Muslims. Because the Quran tells them to fight in the way of Allah. I want to explain to them that Muhammad has been dead for fourteen hundred years, and he does not need them to fight his battles for him any more.

Emulating Al Nabi is fun----one gets to rape and pillage and enslave

 

[Hawkins]

If God would like to pass the truth among humans, there are several things He needs to do.

1) He needs to maintain the genuineness of His Word (the Bible)
To do this, He needs to assign an earthly authority acting as His representative and the guardian of His Word. The Jews was assigned the job in OT. They were keeping the one and only one version of the OT.

When this earthly representative when corrupted and no longer functions, another one will be assigned to do the same job. The Catholics were assigned the job in NT. When Catholics went corrupted, that the authority was passed to the Protestants.

The core (Canon) of Bible however is maintained across time, with the Jews, the Catholics and the Protestants keeping the same version of OT, and the Catholics and Protestants keeping the same NT.

If God doesn't maintain His Word this way, then humans are not to blame if they failed to follow the genuine copy of the Word of God as this genuine copy itself doesn't exist or cannot be explicitly told.

2) He needs to use the most efficient method to pass His Truth among humans and He should be able to EXPLICITLY name this method
Again, if God didn't choose the most efficient way to pass a truth, humans are not to blame if they failed to receive or follow.

The most efficient way to pass a truth among humans is through human witnessing, unless of course God shows Himself up in front of humans. That is to say, if God chooses to hide behind on purpose, the most efficient way left for His Truth to convey is through human witnessing. And He should not only be able to name this method explicitly, but also be able to use it in a correct manner.

Only the Christianity God explicitly calls the prophets His witnesses. And only the Christianity God can make a claim as explicit as the follows,

Acts 1:8 (NIV)
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

The correct use of human witnessing including the making use of multiple accounts and the martyrdom of the direct witnesses. Both are crucial in terms of human witnessing.

3) If His Truth is critical to humans, He should urge for the spreading of the Truth
Again, if God doesn't urge for the spreading of the Truth, humans are not to blame if they failed to receive the message. And only Christianity says that the Gospel (God's Truth critical to humans) should be preached to the ends of the earth to reach all nations.


Qu'ran is a single account witnessing without all the above factors addressed EXPLICITLY.

 

[High_Gravity]

The entire Quran was memorized by thousands of people during Muhammad's life time. He personally instructed them as to sentence structure and exact pronunciation. And this was passed down from generation to generation until it was finally written down into book form.

Even today their are millions of muslims around the globe who have memorized the entire Quran and can recite it by heart. ......

What about the four Qurans that were edited into one by a khalif. who's name I think was Uthman? and what about the pages that were eaten by a goat? And why don't Muslims read the text using their intelligence instead of reciting it parrot fashion? Because anyone who uses their brain to analyse the texts will soon see problems with it.

A goat? are you serious?

 

[Hawkins]

For your reference, the power of human witnessing which is correctly employed by the Christianity God.


=====
Humans get to a truth by putting faith on a small amount of humans who are believed to be in direct contact with the truth itself. This is what human witnessing is.

Truths can be categorized as follows,


Type 1: Scientific truth

You can repeatedly and predictably verify the results by yourself. However, just like any other truths, a scientific truth is normally conveyed through human witnessing. Say, you don't observe the existence of black holes. You believe what is said by the scientists to get to such a truth. The scientists are a small amount of humans who are believed to be in direct contact with a scientific truth.

However, you can anytime verify the works of the scientists, because such a kind of truths is accessible all the times.


Type 2: Present Truth

They are the things/events happening around you or in this world. Such as daily news, the existence of Barrack Obama and so forth. Again, you don't examine them directly. You put your trust/faith to the media to get to such a kind of truths. Media is made up of a small amount of humans such as the writers and reporters.

Since the existence of such a kind of truths is in present time, they are thus accessible for your verification. You can examine the evidence by yourself.


Type 3: Historical Truth

They are the things/events happened in the past (possibly long past). Humans rely mostly on witnessing to reach such a kind of truth. For example, George Washington is believed to live between 1732 and 1799. We know this because there are humans records (possibly multiple accounts of them) saying so. Now what was Washington doing on a specific date, say, Feb 2nd of 1738? No one could possibly know because no one there wrote it down what he's doing on that day.

Mostly, history (= his story) is a result of human witnessing. The more distant history is, the less it is evidenced. Similarly, the less famous a person/an event is, the less was written down about him/it. Humans may thus find no way to reach such a truth.

History is mostly a one time event no longer accessible to today's humans. Humans will have to rely heavily and mostly on documents written by other humans to reach a truth. To put it another way, human witnessing can be the only way to reach a historical truth.


Type 4: Touchable Truth

This is the truth directly accessible to you. For example, water is wet. You can verify this by yourself at any time. You don't need to rely on others tales (witnessing) to know this. However, you may have to rely on witnessing to get to know deeper about what water is, say, at the atomic level.


Type 5: Unreachable Truth

They are truths not supposed to be reached by humans within a certain time frame. For example, humans living in stone age can hardly be aware of the existence of black holes. If somehow you are sent to the humans in stone age. Then they can reach such a truth by believing in your witnessing. If the existence of black holes concerns their lives, you can thus tell them: "I am the truth, the way and the live. Without me no one can reach the truth of black holes".

Similarly, humans living in our age may not access the existence of heaven, hell etc. even when they are real. To put it another way, even when they are real, such a truth can only be reached through human witnessing (which invites your faith to believe).


The truth of Christianity can be a mixture of Type 3 and Type 5 mentioned above. A truth requires witnessing to be reached.