The Truth about Mormons

[zeitgeist2012]

The Bible and the Constitution

There is a lot of discussion today about the U.S. Constitution for it and against it. However, all of the critics and supporters of the Constitution miss the foundational point.

The Constitution cannot be used to solve our problems unless we have the spirit of those who founded it. That spirit came mainly from the Bible. Our history and the Constitution itself prove that point.

The constitution is the supreme law of America the foundation of our republic. Our Founding Fathers did their best to make the Bible the foundation of that great document.

They said that only religion and private morality based on the Bible would make the Constitution work. James Madison said,"We have staked the whole future of America's civilization upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.

The Bible and the Constitution — theTrumpet.com

Step to forming a One World Government/Social unrest/Luke 21:25 roaring seas and waves/War and rumors of war/What did Jesus show us about gold and silver in the end times?/Sept. 25, 2010...

http://frankdimora.typepad.com/the_...d-waveswar-and-rumors-of-warsept-25-2010.html

This is what I think about homosexuality, abortion and them who revel in decadence...

Chapter 5. Demonic possession: The Exception for Direct Confrontation

http://www.spiritualwarfaredeliverance.com/html/demonic-possession-vs-influenc.html

 

[zeitgeist2012]

I understand that is a fictional creation of Joseph Smith, one of the most unusual Americans of the first half of the 1800s. Religious scripture. No, the holy spirit of God witnesses against it. But God will judge you by your heart's intentions as well as your behavior, and grace and mercy come from that. We are all believers, Avatar4321, and I wish you would follow the BoM's doctrines of taking care of the poor. Remember that King Benjamin ruled a theocracy, fusion of religion and state. There, was no such things as private charity.

This is exactly why I wish you would understand it. Because you clearly don't. One of the most beautiful sermons in existance on the need to take care of the poor and you think it means we are to outsource our responsibilities to our government.

King Benjamin was known for his personal service as King. He encouraged his people to serve one another:

12 I say unto you that as I have been suffered to spend my days in your service, even up to this time, and have not sought gold nor silver nor any manner of riches of you;

13 Neither have I suffered that ye should be confined in dungeons, nor that ye should make slaves one of another, nor that ye should murder, or plunder, or steal, or commit adultery; nor even have I suffered that ye should commit any manner of wickedness, and have taught you that ye should keep the commandments of the Lord, in all things which he hath commanded you—

14 And even I, myself, have labored with mine own hands that I might serve you, and that ye should not be laden with taxes, and that there should nothing come upon you which was grievous to be borne—and of all these things which I have spoken, ye yourselves are witnesses this day.

15 Yet, my brethren, I have not done these things that I might boast, neither do I tell these things that thereby I might accuse you; but I tell you these things that ye may know that I can answer a clear conscience before God this day.

16 Behold, I say unto you that because I said unto you that I had spent my days in your service, I do not desire to boast, for I have only been in the service of God.

17 And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God.

18 Behold, ye have called me your king; and if I, whom ye call your king, do labor to serve you, then ought not ye to labor to serve one another? (Mosiah 2: 12-18

Now, how can you read that and conclude that he was telling them that they should pay more taxes so the government can take care of others? God doesn't ask us to hand over our money to other people to serve our fellow man. He doesn't ask us to take money from others to serve our fellow man. He asks us to give of our time, talents, and money to serve one another and lift up the poor. It is our duty as individuals to act. We are called and commanded to be disciples and lift up those that our poor. Not burden the people with taxes and then use the money of others and the time of others to give to others.

It was the wicked King Noah who laid heavy taxes on the people to do "public works." (Ironically King Noah's tax rate, which the scriptures say was oppressive, is significantly lower than ours. Only 20%).

How will you find the Holy Spirit in the text if you don't understand it? Stop pretending that a government program fulfills your obligations to serve and just serve. Stop making excuses and just let go. Go to work and put it in the hands of the Lord. He will magnify your efforts and you will accomplish far more than any government program will.

You simply do not believe the words of King Benjamin about this anymore than you believe the words of BY about certain things. You have faith. Good for you. You don't have the evidence to support your faith, but so what. Best to you in your walk.

Archaeology, Relics, and Book of Mormon Belief

Archaeology, Relics, and Book of Mormon Belief - John E. Clark - Journal of Book of Mormon Studies - Volume 14 - Issue 2

Articles by John P. Pratt

Articles by John P. Pratt

Forum Presentations | Book of Mormon Archaeological Forum

 

[Avatar4321]

You simply do not believe the words of King Benjamin about this anymore than you believe the words of BY about certain things. You have faith. Good for you. You don't have the evidence to support your faith, but so what. Best to you in your walk.

Jake, I believe the words of King Benjamin and Brigham Young whole heartedly. I just dont believe your willful misinterpretation of them. That's the different.

I believe that we all have a responsibility to serve and uplift others. You think we have to advocate that responsibility to the government. And for some reason you think they advocated the same thing when I just quoted the very text saying the exact opposite.

I hope someday the Spirit opens your eyes to the truth.

 

[froggy]

serving mere men like Benjamin and Brigham Young is blasphemy.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Was that the dude with semi-nude LDS missionary calendar guys?

I don't know what you're talking about but Brandon Davies was the center for the BYU Basketball team.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You simply do not believe the words of King Benjamin about this anymore than you believe the words of BY about certain things. You have faith. Good for you. You don't have the evidence to support your faith, but so what. Best to you in your walk.

Jake, I believe the words of King Benjamin and Brigham Young whole heartedly. I just dont believe your willful misinterpretation of them. That's the different. I believe that we all have a responsibility to serve and uplift others. You think we have to advocate that responsibility to the government. And for some reason you think they advocated the same thing when I just quoted the very text saying the exact opposite. I hope someday the Spirit opens your eyes to the truth.

You misunderstand the text. I understand that. I understand LDS John Birchers misunderstand the American experiment. What I find very interesting is that JS and BY's desire for complete theocracy would have made our discussion irrelevant if they had succeeded. They would have followed King Benjamin and would have compelled to do as they wanted in these matters.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Was that the dude with semi-nude LDS missionary calendar guys?

I don't know what you're talking about but Brandon Davies was the center for the BYU Basketball team.

I am with you now. Yeah, I support BYU on this call. If a young man who knows he is going to boink signs with BYU and accepts the honor code, then, guess what: he is responsible.

BYU made a real mistake with Jim McMahon before he later became legend with the Bears in Super Bowl XX. The officials let the quarterback lead one of the most immoral and fast lane lives in the history of BYU sports because he was a winner on the field. The next administration immediately corrected that behavior.

 

[zeitgeist2012]

Why Starskey...I can't believe you found honor and morality something worth standing for.... Come on...tell the truth...you were being oxymoronic in your empathy?

Here is a god you can believe in that teaches children how to deal with infadels....

http://ajuaa.com/lookme/play.php?vid=153

 

[JakeStarkey]

You are simply screwy, Zeit. You don't even know God.

 

[zeitgeist2012]

Facts are not conspiracy. I've never heard of trillions of our tax dollars being spent on conspiracy even after world leaders denounced multiculturalism for ripping apart and bankrupting their countries.... Maybe you should read the right articles and books.... Islam has been a very big part of the secular elites scheme to destroy all Godly based dominant cultures by playing one against the other in order to rob its populace by obtaining control over the worlds resources and wealth to establish their monkey god rule over our world. This is not a conspiracy. All the economical and sociological facts exist. You just have to be smart enough to find them and put them together....

 

[JakeStarkey]

zounds like a far wack fundamentalist wet dream. enjoy yourself. Westboro Baptist has some openinngs for your type.

 

[zeitgeist2012]

Thay's what I thought ... more silly remarks instead of real work and reseach....

 

[JakeStarkey]

zeit, you have not offered what you are requesting. You gots to pays in order to plays.

 

[Avatar4321]

What constitutes real research and work?

How do you present it to the satisfaction of others?

How can I show research for my personal experiences with the Spirit?

I think we need to look on each other with love and compassion. We don't all understand the same things equally. That doesnt mean one of us is smart and the other is stupid. It simply means we are on different levels of understanding. There may be something you understand that I don't and vice versa.

That is why we have discussions so we can all learn and be edified by each other. We all need to realize our propensity to be fools because we can learn to be wise.

 

[AmericanFirst]

Remember Jesus warned of FALSE PROPHETS? I read a book about two authors that would infiltrate certain religous and other organizations to get the truth. Usually not that flatering, mormonism was one of them. What I read goes against the teachings of the Bible.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Be careful AmericanFirst that you did not fit your own definition of false prophets. Stick to your own belief and worry about yours. Truly, Jesus can do His work without your unguided help.

 

[Avatar4321]

Remember Jesus warned of FALSE PROPHETS? I read a book about two authors that would infiltrate certain religous and other organizations to get the truth. Usually not that flatering, mormonism was one of them. What I read goes against the teachings of the Bible.

Of course, Jesus warned about false prophets. We warn against them as well. But in order to be false prophets there has to be true prophets.

Read the New Testament, there are prophets mentioned with the early Saints throughout the books and Epistles after Christ ascended into heaven.

In fact, Paul clearly taught that Apostles and Prophets were the foundation of the Church, with Christ being the Chief Cornorstone (Eph 2:19-20). In fact, two chapters later Paul promised the Church that there would be Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and teachers given to the saints for their perfection, for the work of the ministry and edification of the body of Christ until we all come to a unity of faith and knowledge of Christ (Eph 4:11-13).

So clearly if there are no Apostles and Prophets, there is no church, since they are the Foundation of it. And since Christianity is not united in faith or knowledge of Christ, I would contend that Apostles and Prophets are still a necessary component to the Church. Unless you wish to argue that God has for some reason changed His method for how He teaches the Plan of Happiness to people. Do you?

I would also note that key to the end time prophecies is one that two prophets will preach in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years. I would suggest that since these two are mentioned in Prophecy that they are in fact true prophets of God. Which likewise supports my assertion that Christ condemned merely false prophets and did not condemn the true ones as well. His explanation on how to identify false prophets from true prophets (by their fruits) would be rather pointless if God was not sending any more true prophets.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Zeitgeist and JakeStarkey: I find some truth to what Z said about Islam and divide and conquer techniques. It's more like unconsciously taking advantage of conflicts to dominate both and destroy. We do it to ourselves with bipartisan politics (that waste energy money and other resources and distract people from investing in solutions) and also polarizing religious debates instead of valuing conflict resolution.

With Jihadists, the split in interpretation from peaceful Islamic practice is caused by not resolving conflicts in the first place. The concept that is abused is "should there be conflicting" interpretations, the latter teaching of Mohammad takes precedence. The problem is that:
1. In the Quran, his peaceful teachings came before
2. His violent military instructions to kill religious enemies came later
3. the SURA 109 (about parting ways if you believe differently) came near the very end of the Quran
4. the teaching of Mohammad to interpret this passage as "peaceful coexistence" came after that but is NOT in the Quran (so it is overridden by Jihadists who put the Quran first to justify following the wartime instructions and declaring war against infidels, since those passages came after the peaceful ones)
I checked with Muslim friends, who acknowledged that this concept of taking the latter teachings is considered true across all Islam, and the instructions that SURA 109 means peaceful coexistence is not in the Quran.

Also, since Muslims are called to follow the Bible, if the scriptures on redressing grievances to restore relations were equally following as sent by God, then all conflicts could be resolved or else people could agree to party ways civilly. The Contitutional laws on due process and peaceful petitioning to redress grievances could also be taught as sent by God, and thus required for Muslims to respect these laws.

But as long as conflicts are left unresolved, there are groups that use this to justify invoking violent interpretations; there is not enouch check to stop these abuses, if these militant jihadists do not follow the Bible or Constitutional laws as Sent by God.

All Muslims are supposed to receive and respect "all sent by God."

The peaceful Muslims who do respect different ways practice peaceful coexistence, but do not always take responsibility for resolving conflicts, but submit to God's will in this.
This opens the door for violent Jihadists to act on their interpretations without proactively resolving the conflicts instead. So that is where division and conflict are exploited.

I don't believe this is a conscious decision.
It seems clear that people HONESTLY believe they cannot reconcile and that the other truly is an infidel or enemy. Even if they weren't sure, they talk themselves into staying angry.

I believe it is an unconscious drive that is inflamed by political greed for dominance.

So I don't believe a lot of these conspiracies are conscious concerted efforts.
Much of it is unconscious, but moblike collusion anyway.

As for Jake, there is some truth in what anyone says.
God is guiding all of us, in these conversations and interactions.

It is up to each of us to recognize what wisdom or insight God is trying to show us.

It is not for us to say who does or does not know God.
But to make sure we recognize which part is truth from God and at least accept that.

We can still learn something from anyone, even if they are mistaken or misguided.
No need to reject someone, as long as we can gain some points from them.

Thank you for your messages.
I hope you gain something from these exchanges and
learn to appreciate each other's insights
and correct each other's faults for mutual benefit and greater understanding.

That is ultimately what God is trying to lead us to.
Even if we make mistakes in judgments or statements.
We are in this process together. Let us not allow
our differences to be exploited as divisions. We can do better than that!

 

[Avatar4321]

We are getting close to 5000 replies.

 

[Dr.House]

We are getting close to 5000 replies.

Good thread....