The Truth about Mormons

[Truthspeaker]

Lets not pretend that mormon hands are lacking blood on them, eh dude? And joy? Sure, why not. It was probably better than mormonism sprouted in a location WITHOUT a dominant religion already so you could go on to mold Utah into what it is without having to rake Missouri through the talons of your faith. I'll keep Missouri's heritage over yours, thanks.

If there were some imperfect rogue individual actions by members of our church, at least we're not proud of them. You are sick.

yea right, dude... Hell, how many years AFTER THE FACT did you bitches FINALLY stop denying that massacre? Lord knows I won't even TOUCH (hehehe) the polygamy lifestyle. Hell, we have plenty of mononites who ACTUALLY practice their faith without having to mold everything into what became salt lake city. I highly doubt you people would have managed the same personal faith as the menonites we still have today. Again, it's best that you moved on. Think of it as a steel toed sign from moroni.

We never denied the massacre happened otherwise no one would have found out about it. The only ones who lived to tell the tale were MORMONS. You are not even sick. You are glad we are gone but there are over 4 million of us back in your state and guess how many of you we killed? 0. You hate our religion so much that you justify slaughtering those with a different perspective than you. You are evil and proud of it. You have definitely "Shown Me" all there is about an old wretched Missourian like yourself.

 

[Eightball]

maybe someday we can have some real discussion again.

I don't think there are any more intelligent questions out there on this board. Just futile attempts to insult me into oblivion. I don't know why people find themselves compelled to launch attack after attack. It's like cyber-Missouri

Again, your playing the typical Mormon role of the "victim" or the "martyr" for your beliefs.

People have brought up legitimate critiques of your system of beliefs, and in most cases you blew them off by saying you answered that question.

There are so many unanswered questions about Mormonism, and it especially goes back to it's founders who either make or break your church.

As long as you venerate a known con man, and bible plagarist, Joseph Smith Jr., and buy into your church's unfounded belief that he is/was a martyr, when in fact he was a law breaker, a con man of the nth degree while living in New York.

Joseph Smith Jr. condemned the Christian church as a whole, bar none, no exceptions. Then he proceeded to propound that his alleged revelations were from God, and that God told him, that he/Joseph Smith Jr, would be endowed or given the uncorrupted truth.

Your church also redefines the attributes of God. Now God is either in control of all things or He's not God. The very definition of God is all powerful, fulling in control, yet His ways are mysterious as there is much that happens on planet earth that seems to say, "God where are you!". Assuredly, God is here and everywhere, but there is one thing that never changes...........That is God. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Also, the bible has been miraculously substantiated via the Dead Sea scrolls as staying UNCORRUPTED! The nearly 100% Isaiah Black sea scroll validates the bible incredibly! The current translations of the O.T.'s Isaiah are exactly the same as the nearly 2,000 year old Black Sea scroll. Yet, Joseph S. was told by this angle Moroni, and god himself, that the bible is not to be trusted, and therefore we have to have this new revelation presented on Golden Plates.

Interestingly, Moses received God's commandments on stone tablets, not gold one's. Interestingly, God wrote upon the stone tablets His communications to man in the language of that day. Interestingly, J.S. Jr. received alleged golden plates with and communications from within his seers stone and top hat that were of Egyptian reformed Heiroglyphics. Interestingly, there is no reformed Heiroglyphics known to man or Egyptologists.

There are so many "holes" in your church's foundations. Your Book of Mormon mentiones that metalurgy was in use in the Americas thousands of years before Columbus. It would easily have been substantiated via archeology, but there is not any evidence of a copper, bronze, or iron age in the Americas. Yet, the metalurgy age is easily substantiated throughout Europe, Asia, and Africa.

It is one thing to say you have faith and that holds you alone, against all the evidence that demands a verdict and goes contrary in the face of your church's foundations, and to have faith that is substantiated by eye-witnesses that were not or sordid/questionable character.

When one goes to any of the Mormon historical sites from New York to Utah, the underlying message is "persecution". Ever wonder why?
Jesus was persecuted because He brought conviction of the soul upon mankind, as well as His disciples after Pentacost. Man either humbly accepts his state of soul as Jesus says, or rejects it. There is no middle ground. Christ says He has one sheep fold, and that fold He will protect with out loss of one soul.

Why were Mormons persecuted? First of all the Mormons propounded to both Catholics, Protestant, and non-denominationa bible Christians that they were all "lost", and that he Smith, had the way or answer and true church. Secondly, when local press in Illinois printed articles critical of his/Smith's band of followers and their beliefs and ways, he/Smith took it upon his own hands to break into the local news press office and attempt to destroy it. He was summarily jailed for it, and it is documented in offical records, that differ completely from the Mormon church's revised version.

It is true that Smith Jr. was shot dead at the jail, but where the church goes off on it's revised romantic tale of martyrdom, the real report at the scene as documented was that Smith was slipped a gun to fight off the angry mob that came to his jail to do to him, who knows what. The ensuing gun battle between smith and the mob, resulted not only in Smith being shot, but in Smith also shooting some folks.

Now Truthspeaker, you have tried in vain to redefine what a martyr is so that J.S. Jr. will fill the role, but sadly, you are in conflict with all know english definitions or vernacular of what Martyrdom means.

Smith Jr. did not go quietly to his death, being lynched or shot for his beliefs, but instead, fought for his dear life. If Smith's death was martyrdom, then it is a slap in the collective faces of every Christian that Nero, and many other dictators, have executed.

Conclusion: Truthspeaker, if you bow out of this thread cause folks question the validity of your churchs' beliefs, and it's foundations of doctrine, and the people who established these doctrines, by taking the "persecuted" role, you will have completely fullfilled the tenents of what your church teaches you.

The amount of persecution that your church has endured is but a smidgeon of what Christians endured for nearly 2000 years. Many folks have done terrible things in the name of Christ, yet they only proved that they were not Christians by relationship with God, but by man's traditions, and familial connections; all of which are not trully converted people, or true Christian.

Can't you see that your doctrine is the hatchings of a very smart, con job, of a man who needed to control a group of people, and was most likely deluded himself? Your doctrine has little bits of Islamic heaven, with celestial sexual intercourse, mixed with Ron Hubbard's planetary races of humans with their own Jesus's and saviours for each planet. It is a regular mishmash of so many beliefs, topped off with a big does of legalistic do's and don'ts in order to be pleasing to your god.

 

[Avatar4321]

The guy was a con artist (and he has the arrest record to prove it) that duped MANY people into spending their money on his "treasure hunting" magical powers and divining rods. The guy was a snake. The part that amazes me the most is the stupidity of the people who bought into his garbage.

I love the story where he was having that dude write down the words he spoke as he stuck his head into an upsidedown hat. Then when this secretarys wife didnt believe Joseph was telling the truth, she came up with a brilliant idea.... she had him go back and tell Joseph that he lost ALL the transcripts and that theyd have to start over. Since Joseph Smith claimed he was actually reading the written words in his seer stones, every word he spoke should match all the transcripts they lied about losing, exactly, word for word. Of course Joseph was a conman and he knew he wasnt going to be able to duplicate it because he had just been saying crap off of the top of his head for weeks. So then he made up a story about god getting angry, and now the seer stones wont work anymore, and hed have to write an entirely different bible now. Classic.

Im convinced that Joseph Smith wasnt even a good con man, he was just lucky enough to find a town full of suckers.

Being repeatedly discharged from jail without being found guilty of anything hardly creates proof of anything. Jesus Christ was arrested and put to death. Somehow, I dont think you would be arguing that Christ had a criminal record and that somehow proves He is a conman.

So your proposition is that Joseph Smith just said stuff off the top of his head. Yet, Martin Harris, who translated the pages you mentioned, not only failed to notice a difference between the old and the newer texts, he went to his dying day testifying that he saw the plates and heard the Angel testify to Him, despite being excommunicated at one point. (He was later rebaptized).

We are supposed to disbelieve the person who was actually there, and conclude that you know better. He was just a conman who suckered poor Martin into thinking that he (Martin) somehow saw an angel and gold plates. And then of course suckered 10 other people into believing they say the plates.

And somehow he did this by saying stuff off the top of his head in a period of two months that is completely coherent and internally consistent? Do you realize how difficult it is to write a 500+ page book in a years time? Let alone in two months.

Do you know how much more improbable it would be to include accurate descriptions of a path through Arabia including correct names and descriptions of the places involved that were completely unknown in the 19th century? Or include accurate ancient middle eastern names that were completely unknown to a farm boy on the frontier? Or include Hebraic poetry that wasnt known to exist until a century after?

Yet Joseph is clearly just a poor conman who managed to do all these things. Either Joseph Smith was a prophet, or he was a freakin genius.

 

[Godboy]

Since i am an Atheist, i can honestly say that i am unbiased in my rejection of all religions. With that said, the Mormon faith is second only to scientology for being the dumbest religion on earth.

To quote Hillary, "It requires the willing suspension of disbelief".

 

[Godboy]

The guy was a con artist (and he has the arrest record to prove it) that duped MANY people into spending their money on his "treasure hunting" magical powers and divining rods. The guy was a snake. The part that amazes me the most is the stupidity of the people who bought into his garbage.

I love the story where he was having that dude write down the words he spoke as he stuck his head into an upsidedown hat. Then when this secretarys wife didnt believe Joseph was telling the truth, she came up with a brilliant idea.... she had him go back and tell Joseph that he lost ALL the transcripts and that theyd have to start over. Since Joseph Smith claimed he was actually reading the written words in his seer stones, every word he spoke should match all the transcripts they lied about losing, exactly, word for word. Of course Joseph was a conman and he knew he wasnt going to be able to duplicate it because he had just been saying crap off of the top of his head for weeks. So then he made up a story about god getting angry, and now the seer stones wont work anymore, and hed have to write an entirely different bible now. Classic.

Im convinced that Joseph Smith wasnt even a good con man, he was just lucky enough to find a town full of suckers.

Being repeatedly discharged from jail without being found guilty of anything hardly creates proof of anything. Jesus Christ was arrested and put to death. Somehow, I dont think you would be arguing that Christ had a criminal record and that somehow proves He is a conman.

So your proposition is that Joseph Smith just said stuff off the top of his head. Yet, Martin Harris, who translated the pages you mentioned, not only failed to notice a difference between the old and the newer texts, he went to his dying day testifying that he saw the plates and heard the Angel testify to Him, despite being excommunicated at one point. (He was later rebaptized).

We are supposed to disbelieve the person who was actually there, and conclude that you know better. He was just a conman who suckered poor Martin into thinking that he (Martin) somehow saw an angel and gold plates. And then of course suckered 10 other people into believing they say the plates.

And somehow he did this by saying stuff off the top of his head in a period of two months that is completely coherent and internally consistent? Do you realize how difficult it is to write a 500+ page book in a years time? Let alone in two months.

Do you know how much more improbable it would be to include accurate descriptions of a path through Arabia including correct names and descriptions of the places involved that were completely unknown in the 19th century? Or include accurate ancient middle eastern names that were completely unknown to a farm boy on the frontier? Or include Hebraic poetry that wasnt known to exist until a century after?

Yet Joseph is clearly just a poor conman who managed to do all these things. Either Joseph Smith was a prophet, or he was a freakin genius.

Yeah, but almost all of what you said is untrue. You could also claim Joseph wore a cape and flew around stopping super villians, but we arent going to believe that crap either.

 

[Truthspeaker]

are proud that Joseph was tarred and feathered despite not harming another Missourians head?

Long before he learned how to use religion to make money, the guy was a con artist (and he has the arrest record to prove it) that duped MANY people into spending their money on his "treasure hunting" magical powers and divining rods. The guy was a snake that ruined MANY innocent peoples lives, leaving them dead broke. The part that amazes me the most is the stupidity of the people who bought into his garbage.

I love the story where he was having that dude write down the words he spoke as he stuck his head into an upsidedown hat. Then when this secretarys wife didnt believe Joseph was telling the truth, she came up with a brilliant idea.... she had him go back and tell Joseph that he lost ALL the transcripts and that theyd have to start over. Since Joseph Smith claimed he was actually reading Gods written words in his seer stones, every word he spoke should match all the previous transcripts they lied about losing, exactly, word for word. Of course Joseph was a conman and he knew he wasnt going to be able to duplicate it because he had just been saying crap off of the top of his head for weeks. So then he made up a story about god getting angry, and now the seer stones wont work anymore, and hed have to write an entirely different bible now. Classic.

Im convinced that Joseph Smith wasnt even a good con man, he was just lucky enough to find a town full of suckers.

Spoken like a class 5 ignoramus. There isn't a man in the history of the world who could "spout off" the complex makeup of the book. Look you can think what you want of Joseph but I noticed you had no problem with violence against him or his people. You could think he is a total wacko, but does that condone the violence? Was he ever aggressive towards people not of his faith? You can't show a single instance of it. He was a kind person.

But what do we do with wacko's normally? Just ignore them right? Do you beat homeless wacko's to death because they are mentally ill? For some reason people couldn't ignore Joseph. Maybe it's because they didn't like the doctrine he preached. Fine, would that make you angry to the point of killing him? What makes people anger to the point of murder is usually because someone is denouncing the evil things they do. So to make it stop, they kill the person if they can.


You answer me all those questions and don't dodge em. I'll be waiting

 

[Eightball]

If there were some imperfect rogue individual actions by members of our church, at least we're not proud of them. You are sick.

yea right, dude... Hell, how many years AFTER THE FACT did you bitches FINALLY stop denying that massacre? Lord knows I won't even TOUCH (hehehe) the polygamy lifestyle. Hell, we have plenty of mononites who ACTUALLY practice their faith without having to mold everything into what became salt lake city. I highly doubt you people would have managed the same personal faith as the menonites we still have today. Again, it's best that you moved on. Think of it as a steel toed sign from moroni.

We never denied the massacre happened otherwise no one would have found out about it. The only ones who lived to tell the tale were MORMONS. You are not even sick. You are glad we are gone but there are over 4 million of us back in your state and guess how many of you we killed? 0. You hate our religion so much that you justify slaughtering those with a different perspective than you. You are evil and proud of it. You have definitely "Shown Me" all there is about an old wretched Missourian like yourself.

When I brought up the treatment of African Americans in your church, you immediately went to the old, "Look what the Southern Christian churches did to the blacks?".

What those folks did to the blacks in the South was totally unbiblical, uncivil, and evil.

What your church did to the blacks was doctrinal, until a few years ago.

Your the church that propounds that you have the "truth", yet many years after Martin Luther King's legacy, your church continued to deny the Mormon priesthood to black members. What a travesty.

Again, those Southern Christian crackers churches were wrong, and unscriptural.

Your church discriminated based on doctrine. You were being doctrinal...........until your prophet/president had an "epiphany/revelations" conveniently co-inciding with public scrutiny of your churchs' discrimination.

Seems like if there's a church that's in need of new and improved revelation it's the LDS church. When the U.S. church's abhorred polygamy, your new revelations church was condoning it as doctrinal.

I think it's time to question Moroni as a true angel of God........at least of the God of the bible.

Faith, by it's very definition is based on facts or a multitude of facts.

Just as a person sits down on a chair, that person exercises faith in the chair-builder to have built a strong chair. Christian base their faith on the work of the God-Man Jesus Christ. Christians base their faith on the eye witness reports of multitudes of both Jews and gentiles as recorded in the bible.

Now you base your faith on a very questionable "chair maker" indeed; Joseph Smith Jr.. His chair making credentials are sketchy, his reputations in great question, his deeds of great strangeness, and mysterious at most.

His early life background lacks a true desire to have a relationship with God, but reeks of using people for personal gain.

Even the prophet Samuel was dedicated to God by his mother when he was but a little child. Joseph Smiths early life does not exude of holy or righteous living at all.

Even the apostle Paul was a very learned man in the Talmud, before his Christian conversion. Though he was feared by the church, he was a man who knew the scriptures, yet lacked the Spirit there-in to understand them in the light of God's love, and Jesus Messiahship.

Saul of Tarsus, who became Saul, was met dramatically by the ascended Jesus on the road to Damascus, and there after was a changed man of contrite, and humble heart.

Humility, and humbleness seems very absent from your posts Truthspeaker? Why is that? Why does your sign-on name reek of the anti-thesis of humility.

We Christians are given the truth through God's Word, yet we don't always live out those truths, as we war with the temptations through the flesh, and sin, and must wait one day for that glorious ressurrection promised when Christ returns. Then we will see Him a-new in all His glory.

Truthspeaker: Your a very intelligent gent, yet I know that many here don't bite the bait and hook of your Mormon doctrine. One thing important in Christianity. It is Christ's life that must exude and be visible to the world in each and every true Christian. Not a haughty, "I know the truth", attitude, that looks down on all others as a type of poor lost infidel, that will miss out on godhood.

Might as well finish off with the most unusual and out of context practice of your church. Baptizing the dead. Jesus said, if you don't accept me when you were alive and living on planet earth, you've no more chance..............Period.

 

[Shogun]

Lets not pretend that mormon hands are lacking blood on them, eh dude? And joy? Sure, why not. It was probably better than mormonism sprouted in a location WITHOUT a dominant religion already so you could go on to mold Utah into what it is without having to rake Missouri through the talons of your faith. I'll keep Missouri's heritage over yours, thanks.

I dont have to pretend anything. Mormon hands are lacking blood on them.

hehehe.. whatever you say, dude.

Mountain Meadows massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Godboy]

But what do we do with wacko's normally? Just ignore them right? Do you beat homeless wacko's to death because they are mentally ill? For some reason people couldn't ignore Joseph.

People didnt ignore David Koresh and Jim Jones either, yet they were absolutely insane. Someone should have put a bullet in their heads and saved alot of grief.

 

[Godboy]

But what do we do with wacko's normally? Just ignore them right? Do you beat homeless wacko's to death because they are mentally ill? For some reason people couldn't ignore Joseph.

People didnt ignore David Koresh and Jim Jones either, yet they were absolutely insane. Someone should have put a bullet in their heads and saved alot of grief.

 

[Shogun]

If there were some imperfect rogue individual actions by members of our church, at least we're not proud of them. You are sick.

yea right, dude... Hell, how many years AFTER THE FACT did you bitches FINALLY stop denying that massacre? Lord knows I won't even TOUCH (hehehe) the polygamy lifestyle. Hell, we have plenty of mononites who ACTUALLY practice their faith without having to mold everything into what became salt lake city. I highly doubt you people would have managed the same personal faith as the menonites we still have today. Again, it's best that you moved on. Think of it as a steel toed sign from moroni.

We never denied the massacre happened otherwise no one would have found out about it. The only ones who lived to tell the tale were MORMONS. You are not even sick. You are glad we are gone but there are over 4 million of us back in your state and guess how many of you we killed? 0. You hate our religion so much that you justify slaughtering those with a different perspective than you. You are evil and proud of it. You have definitely "Shown Me" all there is about an old wretched Missourian like yourself.

We both know damn well that the mormon church initially denied any involvment, dude. The martyr routine doesn't impress me. You people are no different than anyone else and, yes, your hands are just as red as mine. Hell, how many natives did Brigham Young try to recruit to fuck with "Americans"?

EVIL AND PROUD OF IT!



Again, it's a good thing you all got the fuck out of dodge then, eh? 'Cause, we are not about to mold our state around your bullshit theology like you've been able to do in Utah. What is HILARIOUS about this exchange is that you threw the first stone talking shit about Missouri. YOU ARE BITTER ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT BEYOND WHAT AMOUNTS TO THE CHICK TRACTS OF MORMONISM! classic.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sesiFBzNZb0]YouTube - Danzig - Evil Thing[/ame]



Be glad, dude. Your little sect would not have become what it is now had you stayed here. THAT is a fact.

 

[Truthspeaker]

yea right, dude... Hell, how many years AFTER THE FACT did you bitches FINALLY stop denying that massacre? Lord knows I won't even TOUCH (hehehe) the polygamy lifestyle. Hell, we have plenty of mononites who ACTUALLY practice their faith without having to mold everything into what became salt lake city. I highly doubt you people would have managed the same personal faith as the menonites we still have today. Again, it's best that you moved on. Think of it as a steel toed sign from moroni.

We never denied the massacre happened otherwise no one would have found out about it. The only ones who lived to tell the tale were MORMONS. You are not even sick. You are glad we are gone but there are over 4 million of us back in your state and guess how many of you we killed? 0. You hate our religion so much that you justify slaughtering those with a different perspective than you. You are evil and proud of it. You have definitely "Shown Me" all there is about an old wretched Missourian like yourself.

We both know damn well that the mormon church initially denied any involvment, dude. The martyr routine doesn't impress me. You people are no different than anyone else and, yes, your hands are just as red as mine. Hell, how many natives did Brigham Young try to recruit to fuck with "Americans"?

EVIL AND PROUD OF IT!



Again, it's a good thing you all got the fuck out of dodge then, eh? 'Cause, we are not about to mold our state around your bullshit theology like you've been able to do in Utah. What is HILARIOUS about this exchange is that you threw the first stone talking shit about Missouri. YOU ARE BITTER ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT BEYOND WHAT AMOUNTS TO THE CHICK TRACTS OF MORMONISM! classic.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sesiFBzNZb0]YouTube - Danzig - Evil Thing[/ame]



Be glad, dude. Your little sect would not have become what it is now had you stayed here. THAT is a fact.

How about the 5 million Mormons back in Missouri now? Why don't you go paint yourself black and joined the black painted mob to go kill the Mormons that live there now? Take a look at your state and realize that we're back. Your sources are non existent. We all know the mountain meadows massacre. You are a liar by nature so you claim that only your side of the story is true.

If it weren't for Mormons there would have been a cover up and no one would have known who killed the arkansas wagon train.
You admit your hands are red...... Well mine ain't because I have no intentions of hurting people. Our "little sect: of 14 million people is growing quite well thank you and we don't mold governments to our religion. How about your state getting flooded with Mormons nowaday's. How ironic.


Oh and about me not knowing anything of Missourian history, I gotta put my foot in your mouth because you don't even know that it was legal to kill a Mormon in your state untill 1977. Put that in your pipe and smoke it Beeyotch!

 

[Shogun]

We never denied the massacre happened otherwise no one would have found out about it. The only ones who lived to tell the tale were MORMONS. You are not even sick. You are glad we are gone but there are over 4 million of us back in your state and guess how many of you we killed? 0. You hate our religion so much that you justify slaughtering those with a different perspective than you. You are evil and proud of it. You have definitely "Shown Me" all there is about an old wretched Missourian like yourself.

We both know damn well that the mormon church initially denied any involvment, dude. The martyr routine doesn't impress me. You people are no different than anyone else and, yes, your hands are just as red as mine. Hell, how many natives did Brigham Young try to recruit to fuck with "Americans"?

EVIL AND PROUD OF IT!



Again, it's a good thing you all got the fuck out of dodge then, eh? 'Cause, we are not about to mold our state around your bullshit theology like you've been able to do in Utah. What is HILARIOUS about this exchange is that you threw the first stone talking shit about Missouri. YOU ARE BITTER ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT BEYOND WHAT AMOUNTS TO THE CHICK TRACTS OF MORMONISM! classic.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sesiFBzNZb0]YouTube - Danzig - Evil Thing[/ame]



Be glad, dude. Your little sect would not have become what it is now had you stayed here. THAT is a fact.

How about the 5 million Mormons back in Missouri now? Why don't you go paint yourself black and joined the black painted mob to go kill the Mormons that live there now? Take a look at your state and realize that we're back. Your sources are non existent. We all know the mountain meadows massacre. You are a liar by nature so you claim that only your side of the story is true.

If it weren't for Mormons there would have been a cover up and no one would have known who killed the arkansas wagon train.
You admit your hands are red...... Well mine ain't because I have no intentions of hurting people. Our "little sect: of 14 million people is growing quite well thank you and we don't mold governments to our religion. How about your state getting flooded with Mormons nowaday's. How ironic.


Oh and about me not knowing anything of Missourian history, I gotta put my foot in your mouth because you don't even know that it was legal to kill a Mormon in your state untill 1977. Put that in your pipe and smoke it Beeyotch!

Those 5mil mormons have yet to turn the Show Me State into a bastion of 3.5 beer (IF you belong to the club) and holy underoos. If only that was what you people had in mind back then, eh? You know, INSTEAD of carving mormonville out of Liberty, Missouri. You are not "back" in ANY sense that the original troupe wanted back in the day, dude. You see, WE here in the SHOW ME STATE are not prone to turning our back yards into moroni's playland.


But, hey, DENY the massacre all you need to! Lord fucking knows we haven't seen THAT before!

and, again, you can disregard history if you want to.. but there are enough non-lds sources that indicate just how militant the origin of your church was... par for the course, really


FLOODED with mormons? HA! don't be silly. You lost your grasp on this state long ago, sir. Accept it and enjoy Utah. After all, we sure did see widescale mormon lynchings up until 1977!




i tellya.. dogma junkies never seem to stray from the same turd polishing path..

 

[Shogun]

The religious affiliations of the people of Missouri according to the American Religious Identification Survey:[21]

* Christian – 77%
o Protestant
+ Baptist – 22%
+ Methodist – 7%
+ Episcopal – 4%
+ Lutheran – 4%
+ Other Protestant – 12%
o Roman Catholic – 19%
o Latter-Day Saint – 1%*
o Other or unspecified Christian – 8%
* Other religions – 2%
* Not religious – 15%
* No answer – 5%
Missouri - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




IMPRESSIVE!

 

[Eightball]

Truthspeaker & Avatar:

Here is a webpage with the testimonies of many of your ex-LDS brethren.

Of course they've been co-erced or brainwashed or were never "good" Mormons, right? They just miss out on the celestial kingdom, right?

Only the brave, and free-thinking Mormon will click and honestly check out that web site. Boy if your elders or bishops or stake leaders knew you were on that page......Wooh. Look out!

Ex Mormons for Jesus Home Page

 

[Avatar4321]

Again, your playing the typical Mormon role of the "victim" or the "martyr" for your beliefs.

People have brought up legitimate critiques of your system of beliefs, and in most cases you blew them off by saying you answered that question.

Um we have answered the question. For example, the question of the doctrine of Diefication which you keep bringing up as some blasphemy we've answered about a dozen times using the Bible and other sources. You keep ignoring it pretending as though we have no accusation for the doctrine that men can become gods through the Atonement of Christ.

There are so many unanswered questions about Mormonism, and it especially goes back to it's founders who either make or break your church.

Which is why you havent really come up with any question that hasnt been answered multiple times by multiple people decades ago.

As long as you venerate a known con man, and bible plagarist, Joseph Smith Jr., and buy into your church's unfounded belief that he is/was a martyr, when in fact he was a law breaker, a con man of the nth degree while living in New York.

He was a martyr. He was slaughtered for his belief. Here is an eye witness account of what happened. Go to any common dictionary and you will find it clearly fits the definition of Martyr.

He was accused of crimes repeatedly but never convicted. However, I cant help but notice our Lord and Savior was condemned and sentenced to death for a crime. That doesnt stop you from professing faith in Him. And why should it? Should we dismiss Christ simply because He was accused and convicted? If the only perfect man to ever walk the earth was convicted of a crime, do you think anyone else can escape accusation?

As for being a bible plagarist: Plagarism is impossible when you cite the sources.

Joseph Smith Jr. condemned the Christian church as a whole, bar none, no exceptions. Then he proceeded to propound that his alleged revelations were from God, and that God told him, that he/Joseph Smith Jr, would be endowed or given the uncorrupted truth.

What Christian Church? There are thousands of Christian Churches! All of them teaching different doctrine. Most of them denying Divine revelation. If Christ appeared to half of them and proclaimed His Gospel, they would declare Him of the devil.

This is what we get when man trust in their understanding of the Bible rather than listen to the Revelations of God. This is precisely why God would provide multiple witnesses for His Gospel. Because He knew in the last days that people would disbelieve the Bible alone because of all the confusion found in modern Christianity.

Your church also redefines the attributes of God. Now God is either in control of all things or He's not God. The very definition of God is all powerful, fulling in control, yet His ways are mysterious as there is much that happens on planet earth that seems to say, "God where are you!". Assuredly, God is here and everywhere, but there is one thing that never changes...........That is God. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Also, the bible has been miraculously substantiated via the Dead Sea scrolls as staying UNCORRUPTED! The nearly 100% Isaiah Black sea scroll validates the bible incredibly! The current translations of the O.T.'s Isaiah are exactly the same as the nearly 2,000 year old Black Sea scroll. Yet, Joseph S. was told by this angle Moroni, and god himself, that the bible is not to be trusted, and therefore we have to have this new revelation presented on Golden Plates.

You are absolutely right, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. In every age of man, He has spoken through revelation. He has called Prophets, sent Apostles, Ordained Priests. He has spoken to them through the power of the Holy Ghost. They havent had a Bible.

Yet, we are blessed with the historical interactions with God and you want to claim that God is now silent. There can be no more Word of God, for we have enough. This while claiming God is the same? How can God be the same while at the same time you claim He was talkative in the past and is now completely silent in these last days. Especially when we need Him to speak more than ever before?

You claim the Bible is enough. We point out that the Bible never makes that claim and God has given us more. So who the heck are we to tell God He cant do whatever He pleases? If He wants to reveal more information, if He wants to clarify doctrines people misunderstand, we should be grateful God is willing to share this knowledge with us, not telling Him to go to hell.

Interestingly, Moses received God's commandments on stone tablets, not gold one's. Interestingly, God wrote upon the stone tablets His communications to man in the language of that day. Interestingly, J.S. Jr. received alleged golden plates with and communications from within his seers stone and top hat that were of Egyptian reformed Heiroglyphics. Interestingly, there is no reformed Heiroglyphics known to man or Egyptologists.

If you want to know what they said in English, you can pick up a Book of Mormon anywhere for absolutely free. Its not exactly being hid from you. In fact, we are encouraging you to study it out.

There are so many "holes" in your church's foundations. Your Book of Mormon mentiones that metalurgy was in use in the Americas thousands of years before Columbus. It would easily have been substantiated via archeology, but there is not any evidence of a copper, bronze, or iron age in the Americas. Yet, the metalurgy age is easily substantiated throughout Europe, Asia, and Africa.

Now that couldnt possibly be because the Spanish came in, melted everything down and shipped it all to Europe, could it? I mean its not like we have countless records of them doing such things. That couldnt possibly account for the lack of metal items found.

What exactly were the Spanish melting down and shipping back to Europe if it wasnt precious metal?

Id provide news links but apparent my links are out of date. See the information was on abc, cbs, and other news sources, about 7 years ago. They dont keep the information on indefinitely.

It is one thing to say you have faith and that holds you alone, against all the evidence that demands a verdict and goes contrary in the face of your church's foundations, and to have faith that is substantiated by eye-witnesses that were not or sordid/questionable character.

Well looks like there is some progress being made. You are at least admitting that there are eye-witnesses. I wonder how it must have sounded when 12 men preached that they saw someone raised from the dead. Somehow, it's easy to believe that, and yet to believe that God could show them a metal book is unbelievable.

I am completely confident that the more we learn the more the Book of Mormon and the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be verified. Because the more we do learn the more it is verified. If it's all some hoax, if Joseph made it all up, there should be absolutely zero evidence.

But there is evidence. and unlikely evidences. Joseph got lots of obscure facts absolutely correct. Now we could expect a con man to maybe by luck get one or two unknown facts right. But at what point do we have to start taking the evidence seriously? Especially considering there shouldnt be any.

Its the details that proclaim the truth of the matter.

When one goes to any of the Mormon historical sites from New York to Utah, the underlying message is "persecution". Ever wonder why?

No, it's been pretty obvious. The idea that God speaks scares the crap out of alot of people. And some of the early saints were a bit cocky. Course, that doesnt justify murder, rape, and persecution.

Jesus was persecuted because He brought conviction of the soul upon mankind, as well as His disciples after Pentacost. Man either humbly accepts his state of soul as Jesus says, or rejects it. There is no middle ground. Christ says He has one sheep fold, and that fold He will protect with out loss of one soul.

There is no middle ground with Mormonism either. Either Christ restored His Church or He didnt. Either the Book of Mormon is true or it isnt.

Why were Mormons persecuted? First of all the Mormons propounded to both Catholics, Protestant, and non-denominationa bible Christians that they were all "lost", and that he Smith, had the way or answer and true church.

Christ is the only way is He not? Do you honestly think you are not lost if you refuse to listen to what He says now?

Secondly, when local press in Illinois printed articles critical of his/Smith's band of followers and their beliefs and ways, he/Smith took it upon his own hands to break into the local news press office and attempt to destroy it. He was summarily jailed for it, and it is documented in offical records, that differ completely from the Mormon church's revised version.

This is just ridiculous. Mormons were persecuated for almost 15 years prior to this happening. He was also acquitted of any wrong doing by a non-mormon judge because the City Council had legal standing to destroy any nuisances. And stirring up a mob is a nuisance.

It is true that Smith Jr. was shot dead at the jail, but where the church goes off on it's revised romantic tale of martyrdom, the real report at the scene as documented was that Smith was slipped a gun to fight off the angry mob that came to his jail to do to him, who knows what. The ensuing gun battle between smith and the mob, resulted not only in Smith being shot, but in Smith also shooting some folks.

He was a martyr. I suggest you actually look up the definition of a martyr. blindly shooting into a hall way to bide enough time to jump out the window and save his friends is hardly a gun battle. One gun that misfires is hardly going to be effective against a mob of fifty with rifles.

Now Truthspeaker, you have tried in vain to redefine what a martyr is so that J.S. Jr. will fill the role, but sadly, you are in conflict with all know english definitions or vernacular of what Martyrdom means.

You mean he used the dictionaries definition.

Smith Jr. did not go quietly to his death, being lynched or shot for his beliefs, but instead, fought for his dear life. If Smith's death was martyrdom, then it is a slap in the collective faces of every Christian that Nero, and many other dictators, have executed.

Conclusion: Truthspeaker, if you bow out of this thread cause folks question the validity of your churchs' beliefs, and it's foundations of doctrine, and the people who established these doctrines, by taking the "persecuted" role, you will have completely fullfilled the tenents of what your church teaches you.

We want people to question! That's the whole point of the thread! That's the whole point of going out there and sharing what we believe.

And contrary to your opinions. We arent taught to be victims. we are taught to act, not be acted upon. We are taught to follow Christ.

The amount of persecution that your church has endured is but a smidgeon of what Christians endured for nearly 2000 years. Many folks have done terrible things in the name of Christ, yet they only proved that they were not Christians by relationship with God, but by man's traditions, and familial connections; all of which are not trully converted people, or true Christian.

Its a given that the amount of persecution our church has endured is a smidgeon of what Christians have endured for nearly 2000 years. First, 200 years is alot shorter than 2000. Second, it's a subset of Christianity. Any persecution we suffer adds to the aggregate persecution all Christians have suffered. It seems a no brainer.

Can't you see that your doctrine is the hatchings of a very smart, con job, of a man who needed to control a group of people, and was most likely deluded himself? Your doctrine has little bits of Islamic heaven, with celestial sexual intercourse, mixed with Ron Hubbard's planetary races of humans with their own Jesus's and saviours for each planet. It is a regular mishmash of so many beliefs, topped off with a big does of legalistic do's and don'ts in order to be pleasing to your god.

So you're claiming its a smart con. The last guy was complaining that its an obvious con. I wish you people would stay consistant.

And this probably isnt the last time ill say this, but it isnt about do's and don'ts. It's about becoming more than the natural man through the Atonement. It's about changing human nature through Christ and building a community of Saints to be prepared for the Lord's coming.

But you probably wont read a thing I just said. Its probably just going to be another cut and paste job.

 

[Avatar4321]

hehehe.. whatever you say, dude.

Mountain Meadows massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Whats your point? a bunch of people disobeyed Brigham Young and got excommunicated and some executed for it. Seriously, what does this prove?

 

[Sunni Man]

Brigham Young second President and Prophet:

You see some classes of the human family that are Black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another cursed is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree (Journal of Discourses, 7:290

 

[Shogun]

hehehe.. whatever you say, dude.

Mountain Meadows massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Whats your point? a bunch of people disobeyed Brigham Young and got excommunicated and some executed for it. Seriously, what does this prove?

It proves that you people are no more inherently righteous than anyone else. You bitch and cry like a bleeding pussy about your treatment in Missouri after moving here from the east coast.... and then, IRONICALLY, have yourself a nice "kill the settlers" fest by killing your OWN westward moving easterners. And no, we didn't see ANYTHING other than LDS denial from day fucking one until it eventually dawned on you silly bastards that you were wrong. Sure, NOW you admit it.. but it's the immediate denial and eventual admission that is like the calling card of dogma junkies on a self-righteous kick.


so, i'll say it again: IM GLAD YOU MORMON MOTHERFUCKERS WERE KICKED OUT OF THE SHOW ME STATE SO I DONT HAVE TO LIVE AMONGST YOUR LITTLE BASTARDIZED, INBRED, DOGMA JUNKIE CULTURE.

 

[Eightball]

Again, your playing the typical Mormon role of the "victim" or the "martyr" for your beliefs.

People have brought up legitimate critiques of your system of beliefs, and in most cases you blew them off by saying you answered that question.

Um we have answered the question. For example, the question of the doctrine of Diefication which you keep bringing up as some blasphemy we've answered about a dozen times using the Bible and other sources. You keep ignoring it pretending as though we have no accusation for the doctrine that men can become gods through the Atonement of Christ.

The atonement of Christ was not for men and women to attain godhood.....that is a crock, and not found in the bible. That's a manmade desire, that comes from the very fallen nature of man.

There are so many unanswered questions about Mormonism, and it especially goes back to it's founders who either make or break your church.

Which is why you havent really come up with any question that hasnt been answered multiple times by multiple people decades ago.

Your answers and the answers of the past fall back on questionable sources from people of questionable character.



He was a martyr. He was slaughtered for his belief. Here is an eye witness account of what happened. Go to any common dictionary and you will find it clearly fits the definition of Martyr.

He was accused of crimes repeatedly but never convicted. However, I cant help but notice our Lord and Savior was condemned and sentenced to death for a crime. That doesnt stop you from professing faith in Him. And why should it? Should we dismiss Christ simply because He was accused and convicted? If the only perfect man to ever walk the earth was convicted of a crime, do you think anyone else can escape accusation?

Yep, Jesus Jumped off that cross and killed all those Roman soldiers, and those mean old Jews that railed and spit at Him. He was scared and didn't want to die, and He made every attempt to escape, as J.S. Jr. did. Yep, J.S. jr. is a picture perfect copy of true martyrdom.

As for being a bible plagarist: Plagarism is impossible when you cite the sources.

"Word for word sentences/verses from the bible are in the BOM. Yep, new revelations. Then the books are even renamed."



What Christian Church? There are thousands of Christian Churches! All of them teaching different doctrine. Most of them denying Divine revelation. If Christ appeared to half of them and proclaimed His Gospel, they would declare Him of the devil.

That's presumption and opinion. Paul said their would be many anti-christs, before the second coming........That's false Jesus's. Appears that your founding prophet met up with one of the false ones before the next coming of Christ to judge the world.

Devine revelations? From treasure digger, con man J.S. Jr.?

This is what we get when man trust in their understanding of the Bible rather than listen to the Revelations of God. This is precisely why God would provide multiple witnesses for His Gospel. Because He knew in the last days that people would disbelieve the Bible alone because of all the confusion found in modern Christianity.

That's the weakness of your rebuttal.......Revelations. Paul said, "stick to the scriptures and you won't be mislead, by false prophets claiming......"I saw Jesus", or " I had a visitation, and thus sayeth the Lord from that visitation.".

Your church falls right in to Satan's trap; relying on dreams, visitations, etc.. and going head-strong ahead and claiming them to be divine revelations. That is the pitfall of straying from Gods Word. Many will say, "Here He is!" and if possible even fool the Elect(true Christians).

Systems of faith or religion that depend solely upon personal divine revelations are walking towards a nasty bear trap.

This is no different that those that see a cloud formation or a shadow on a building that looks like some biblical personality, and claims this is a message from God. Whats the message.

Burning bosom experiences are most suspect, because when they validate Mormonism, it is often a dream of some long dead relative that says, "Mormonism is the truth". Paul would lamblast anyone that decided to just pray to find out if something is the truth, and disregard God's Word for validation of whatever supposed answer came out of that prayer.


You are absolutely right, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. In every age of man, He has spoken through revelation. He has called Prophets, sent Apostles, Ordained Priests. He has spoken to them through the power of the Holy Ghost. They havent had a Bible. Yes indeed, the Mormons who have been called didn't need a bible. Their Santa Claus(Satan) fullfilled there deepest fleshly desires.

Yet, we are blessed with the historical interactions with God and you want to claim that God is now silent. There can be no more Word of God, for we have enough. This while claiming God is the same? How can God be the same while at the same time you claim He was talkative in the past and is now completely silent in these last days. Especially when we need Him to speak more than ever before?

God had never been silent. He speaks clearly through His Word, the bible, and confirms His presence and truth in true believers through the H.S. that agrees with God's Word the bible.
You claim the Bible is enough. We point out that the Bible never makes that claim and God has given us more. So who the heck are we to tell God He cant do whatever He pleases? If He wants to reveal more information, if He wants to clarify doctrines people misunderstand, we should be grateful God is willing to share this knowledge with us, not telling Him to go to hell.

If God wanted to reveal additional information, what makes you think that your church has exclusive rights to divine revelation? That is extremely prideful and very presumptuous, and that's what irks people when talking to your door to door missionarys and even you and Truthspeaker. You exude this prideful......"I have the truth", "Sorry, but you have to believe that J.S. Jr. is a legitimate prophet of God" or your out of the loop.

What makes your church correct? So far it's based on crazy, revelations of Jesus visitations to the American Indians, a strange visitation by an angel to a man why was hardly seeking God, but was living a life of personal, monetary gain. Your BOM lacks even 1 smidge of archeological validation.........

If you want to know what they said in English, you can pick up a Book of Mormon anywhere for absolutely free. Its not exactly being hid from you. In fact, we are encouraging you to study it out.

Yeah, well, Moroni and your god seemed to think that J.S. Jr. was an Egyptologist, and expert in ancient Egyptian language/writing. A most strange, way to communicate to American mankind in the 19th century. God doesn't communicate His revelations through mystical rites, handshakes, and magic underware. This is all very bazaar to a world that needs the simplicity of the Gospel. Man is the author of secret words, secret societies, and exclusivity of one group over another. Joseph S.'s Freemason occult background is totally plagarized in your temple rites/ceremonies.

True Christians know that with God it is a "level" playing field. Those that teach or preach are no higher on the "God's special child" scale than the Christian that mops up bathrooms at his church. In fact those that aspire to lead or teach will be held to an even greater accountability than ever.



Now that couldnt possibly be because the Spanish came in, melted everything down and shipped it all to Europe, could it? I mean its not like we have countless records of them doing such things. That couldnt possibly account for the lack of metal items found.

What exactly were the Spanish melting down and shipping back to Europe if it wasnt precious metal?

Again, you stumble and give half answers to full questions. There are no evidences of any metal forging, refining in the America's before European man stepped on the N. American continent. How hard is that, to comprehend?

Before the time of European man, indigenous N. Americans found gold in it's pure, form, and fashioned jewlry, funerary masks, and other implements for royalty and rituals. They did not have foundrys, nor any industry to smelt gold.

However you overlook the lack of copper, bronze, and iron, in N. America, yet your church espouses that these N. American civilizations were advance..........but conveninently lost or gone now.

That is the case with myriads of ancient Asian, European, and African societies, yet evidences of their existence is readily found in the form of metalurgy, swords, pots, spears, etc.... Not so in N. America. Why would God hide these evidences from us in N. America and not in the rest of the world?

Id provide news links but apparent my links are out of date. See the information was on abc, cbs, and other news sources, about 7 years ago. They dont keep the information on indefinitely.

Well looks like there is some progress being made. You are at least admitting that there are eye-witnesses. I wonder how it must have sounded when 12 men preached that they saw someone raised from the dead. Somehow, it's easy to believe that, and yet to believe that God could show them a metal book is unbelievable.

Sadly, you overlook Pauls statement in his epistle that hundreds saw the ressurrected Christ.........not just his 12 Apostles. Hundreds saw Him......... Thats not 12.

Your eye witness is a very questionable person indeed(J.S. Jr.). That's your witness.........Yep..........Your witness.

I am completely confident that the more we learn the more the Book of Mormon and the Gospel of Jesus Christ will be verified. Because the more we do learn the more it is verified. If it's all some hoax, if Joseph made it all up, there should be absolutely zero evidence.

You are confident, based on what? Your hope? Your need to be right? Your hope that Joseph Smith isn't what thousands of pieces of evidence says that contridicts the LDS churchs' take?

But there is evidence. and unlikely evidences. Joseph got lots of obscure facts absolutely correct. Now we could expect a con man to maybe by luck get one or two unknown facts right. But at what point do we have to start taking the evidence seriously? Especially considering there shouldnt be any.

Oh, we have a prophet here that got some things right.......Well, lets check and see what happens alleged prophets that prophesy just one false prophesy............God says their false prophets........Flee from them. Also the Israelites were told to execute them. God isn't sometimes right, nor will he allow His spokesman to be sometimes correct.

Its the details that proclaim the truth of the matter.

God doesn't communicate in little details........He makes Himself and His attributes and desires for mankind very clear, and He repeats it over and over so that there is no doubt as to what He communicates.

If you have to search the details to prove that your on the right track then you are missing the big, big, giant picture that God had given you. Romans Chapter 1 clearly states that man is without excuse, because all he has to do is just look at the heavens, and all of creation and realize that there is a Creator. He doesn't need a con man from New York to lead the flock, although Satan can sure use folks like J.S. Jr. to good measure.

No, it's been pretty obvious. The idea that God speaks scares the crap out of alot of people. And some of the early saints were a bit cocky. Course, that doesnt justify murder, rape, and persecution.

Man wants to hear God speak to him. Sadly, man trips over one of the greatest jewels of knowledge about God, His message, and attributes, the bible.

Joseph Smith Jr. fed into the humanistic, fleshly side, of fallen man's nature, by giving/duping people into believing that he had the new and improved message, replacing God's antequated, and inept communications.

Can you get it into your parameters of thinking that "It is finished!" proclaimed at Calvary, was the completion of God's redemptive work for mankind? There is not extra attonement beyond Christs. No man is ordained or directed to spill another man's blood and do what Christ did 2,000 years ago. That is a mockery and a lie being taught by the LDS church. It totally negates Christ's complete, redemptive work on the Cross. If Christ wasn't capable of complete attonement for mankind's sins past, present, future, how could sinful man ad or complete the work. That is utter nonsense to the clear thinking mind!

There is no middle ground with Mormonism either. Either Christ restored His Church or He didnt. Either the Book of Mormon is true or it isnt.

It is so easy to separate the BOM from the bible, and also the LDS church from mainstream biblical Christianity. The middle ground with the LDS church is that the bible is not enough. That creates an exclusivity with your church, and flies in the face of great theologians, Martin Luther, Wesley, Spurgeon, Towser, etc...

Your church has built a massive religion on half truths, and lousy homeletics.

One can make the bible say whatever they want it to say in order to prove their side or orthodoxy. That is when we pick and pull scriptures out of context, or lack understanding of the cultural implications that also influenced scripture.

To just let the bible speak, in context, and accept what it says, and trust God to reveal what He deems one should hear, is not man's way of thinking. If man wants polygamy to be validated, he can open the bible and say, "Abraham had a slave for a second wife/concubine" or "Solomon had a fistful of wives" or even David and his many wives. The bible, when misused can be a used as Satans tool. To look at the whole picture presented in scripture is to go back to the very nature of God..........The 10 commandments is a good starting point, yet, even in the garden of Eden, God made very clear is nature. God didn't give Adam, several female partners, did He?

Christ is the only way is He not? Do you honestly think you are not lost if you refuse to listen to what He says now?

Your doctrine of blood attonement by man's hands, negates your above statement; clear and simple.



This is just ridiculous. Mormons were persecuated for almost 15 years prior to this happening. He was also acquitted of any wrong doing by a non-mormon judge because the City Council had legal standing to destroy any nuisances. And stirring up a mob is a nuisance.

His life was not Godly in any sense, as we observe with the prophets of the bible.......Samuel, Elijah, Guideon, etc.....

He was a martyr. I suggest you actually look up the definition of a martyr. blindly shooting into a hall way to bide enough time to jump out the window and save his friends is hardly a gun battle. One gun that misfires is hardly going to be effective against a mob of fifty with rifles.

One gun, defective or not, to defend one from death is hardly the life of a martyr when we used the Jesus's death as the template.

You mean he used the dictionaries definition.

Smith Jr. did not go quietly to his death, being lynched or shot for his beliefs, but instead, fought for his dear life. If Smith's death was martyrdom, then it is a slap in the collective faces of every Christian that Nero, and many other dictators, have executed.

We want people to question! That's the whole point of the thread! That's the whole point of going out there and sharing what we believe.

Share away my friend. Expect questions and critiques, and don't align yourselves with the persecuted of the Christian church, because you get flak in this thread. This is hardly persecution, but definitive questions, and information thrown back at you that you summarily refuse to accept.

And contrary to your opinions. We arent taught to be victims. we are taught to act, not be acted upon. We are taught to follow Christ.

One big misconception. Your are taught that we, the secular in your opinion have rewritten history about your churchs' founders because we are mislead by the unrestored church. We are the duped, and you are the elect. It's ok to believe that, but expect scrutiny, and expect that we want solid answers that make sense, and aren't flippant, and ignored for the most part.

And yes all of your missionarys when pressed to answer for their churchs' stance often fall back on previous alleged persecutions while traveling Westward to Utah.

Sadly, many persecutions are only onsided.....i.e. Sadaam and his Republican Army no doubt felt persecuted during the Gulf war.

Persecution is not necessarily the sign that one is suffering for righteousness.

The amount of persecution that your church has endured is but a smidgeon of what Christians endured for nearly 2000 years. Many folks have done terrible things in the name of Christ, yet they only proved that they were not Christians by relationship with God, but by man's traditions, and familial connections; all of which are not trully converted people, or true Christian.

Its a given that the amount of persecution our church has endured is a smidgeon of what Christians have endured for nearly 2000 years. First, 200 years is alot shorter than 2000. Second, it's a subset of Christianity. Any persecution we suffer adds to the aggregate persecution all Christians have suffered. It seems a no brainer.

Please don't align your persecution with the 2,000 years of persecution of the church. Remember, they are mislead and not correct. Only your persecution is for the right reasons. As a Christian, I find it appalling and do not invite or want any Mormon church persecution added to what Christ's church has endured. It is a blasphemy. As stated above, your church was persecuted for it's unbiblical stances that went cross grain with 19th century Christian America,.. that included Catholics, Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Pentacostals, etc.....

By attempting to include your church's suffering with the 2,000 years of biblical church suffering, is to go against your own doctrine. Now you are trying to be inclusive with the biblical church that started in 33 A.D. (book of Act - author Luke)

Can't you see that your doctrine is the hatchings of a very smart, con job, of a man who needed to control a group of people, and was most likely deluded himself? Your doctrine has little bits of Islamic heaven, with celestial sexual intercourse, mixed with Ron Hubbard's planetary races of humans with their own Jesus's and saviours for each planet. It is a regular mishmash of so many beliefs, topped off with a big does of legalistic do's and don'ts in order to be pleasing to your god.

So you're claiming its a smart con. The last guy was complaining that its an obvious con. I wish you people would stay consistant.

Seems very consistent; a smart and obvious con to those that want to see for what it was.

And this probably isnt the last time ill say this, but it isnt about do's and don'ts. It's about becoming more than the natural man through the Atonement. It's about changing human nature through Christ and building a community of Saints to be prepared for the Lord's coming.

You don't become more than a natural man through your LDS definition of attonement. It is God who takes the soul of natural man and makes him a new creature/creation in Christ Jesus. All the attoning was done and completed by Christ. To continue to attone is to covertly or overtly tell the world that Jesus' death was not enough.
But you probably wont read a thing I just said. Its probably just going to be another cut and paste job.

I've done very little cut-paste, and have cramped my fingers typing my thoughts based on the bible, and or Christian doctrine. I've attempted to reason with you, and show you blatant inconsistencies in your churchs' doctrine.

And all you can do is tell me that I cut and paste too much. Sadly that's a convenient cop-out from facing my rebuttals.

Also find that contrary to what the bible says is Jesus-like attributes, you and your tag-team buddy Truthspeaker, go for the personal when rebuttalling, when pressed about your belief system.

There is nothing personal that I harbor towards Mormons. In fact I worked with ex-Mormons for Jesus while in bible college. I have extensive Mormon background on my father's side.

God loves Mormons, buddists, agnostics, atheists alike. He desires that they will all come before the cross, and kneel in total surrender to the Lord of Lords, and spill out their guts, in repentance, and call out to Jesus for mercy. God meets all who seek Him with total contrite hearts, not those with stipulations, disclaimers, and no transparency of their souls. God is a gentleman. He doesn't force Himself on anyone's soul. He does however receive all who come to Him that have relinquished their rights to govern/control their own destinys or lives.