The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[bodecea]

Nice revision of history.

What is the revision you refer to?

A little bit of truth thrown in to make it more palatable...I like that.

What part is not true....be specific.

 

[AllieBaba]

"

[SIZE=-1]Granted, God is not mentioned in the Constitution, but He is mentioned in every major document leading up to the final wording of the Constitution. For example, Connecticut is still known as the "Constitution State" because its colonial constitution was used as a model for the United States Constitution. Its first words were: "For as much as it has pleased the almighty God by the wise disposition of His Divine Providence…"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians. The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: "...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". Sounds Christian to me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Ben Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, said: "...God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]John Adams stated so eloquently during this period of time that; "The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were ... the general principles of Christianity ... I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Later, John Quincy Adams answered the question as to why, next to Christmas, was the Fourth of July this most joyous and venerated day in the United States. He answered: "...Isit not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?" Sounds like the founding of a Christian nation to me. John Quincy Adams went on to say that the biggest victory won in the American Revolution was that Christian principles and civil government would be tied together In what he called an "indissoluble" bond. The Founding Fathers understood that religion was inextricably part of our nation and government. The practice of the Christian religion in our government was not only welcomed but encouraged.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The intent of the First Amendment was well understood during the founding of our country. The First Amendment was not to keep religion out of government. It was to keep Government from establishing a 'National Denomination" (like the Church of England). As early as 1799 a court declared: "By our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing." Even in the letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Baptists of Danbury Connecticut (from which we derive the term "separation of Church and State") he made it quite clear that the wall of separation was to insure that Government would never interfere with religious activities because religious freedom came from God, not from Government.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Even George Washington who certainly knew the intent of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, since he presided over their formation, said in his "Farewell Address": "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars." Sure doesn't sound like Washington was trying to separate religion and politics.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, and one of the three men most responsible for the writing of the Constitution declared:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty-as well as privilege and interest- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." Still sounds like the Founding Fathers knew this was a Christian nation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]This view, that we were a Christian nation, was hold for almost 150 years until the Everson v. Board of Education ruling in 1947. Before that momentous ruling, even the Supreme Court knew that we were a Christian nation. In 1892 the Court stated:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people...This is a Christian nation." There it is again! From the Supreme Court of the United States. This court went on to cite 87 precedents (prior actions, words, and rulings) to conclude that this was a "Christian nation".[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In 1854, the House Judiciary Committee said: "in this age, there is no substitute for Christianity...That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.'[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]It should be noted here that even as late as 1958 a dissenting judge warned in Baer v. Kolmorgen that if the court did not stop talking about the "separation of Church and State", people were going to start thinking it was part of the Constitution.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]It has been demonstrated in their own words: Ben Franklin, George Washington and John Adams, to the House of Representatives and the Supreme Court, how our founding fathers felt about the mix of politics and religion.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]When we read articles such as "What's God got to do with it?" (Primack, 5/4) and "The wall between state and church must not be breached" (Tager, 5/7) it just reaffirms how little, even intelligent people, understand about the founding of our great Republic. To say that this nation was not founded as a Christian nation or that the Constitution was not founded on Christian principles is totally at odds with the facts of history."[/SIZE]

Was the USA Founded as a Christian Nation?

 

[bodecea]

"

[SIZE=-1]Granted, God is not mentioned in the Constitution, but He is mentioned in every major document leading up to the final wording of the Constitution. For example, Connecticut is still known as the "Constitution State" because its colonial constitution was used as a model for the United States Constitution. Its first words were: "For as much as it has pleased the almighty God by the wise disposition of His Divine Providence…"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians. The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: "...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". Sounds Christian to me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Ben Franklin, at the Constitutional Convention, said: "...God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]John Adams stated so eloquently during this period of time that; "The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were ... the general principles of Christianity ... I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Later, John Quincy Adams answered the question as to why, next to Christmas, was the Fourth of July this most joyous and venerated day in the United States. He answered: "...Isit not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?" Sounds like the founding of a Christian nation to me. John Quincy Adams went on to say that the biggest victory won in the American Revolution was that Christian principles and civil government would be tied together In what he called an "indissoluble" bond. The Founding Fathers understood that religion was inextricably part of our nation and government. The practice of the Christian religion in our government was not only welcomed but encouraged.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The intent of the First Amendment was well understood during the founding of our country. The First Amendment was not to keep religion out of government. It was to keep Government from establishing a 'National Denomination" (like the Church of England). As early as 1799 a court declared: "By our form of government the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing." Even in the letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Baptists of Danbury Connecticut (from which we derive the term "separation of Church and State") he made it quite clear that the wall of separation was to insure that Government would never interfere with religious activities because religious freedom came from God, not from Government.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Even George Washington who certainly knew the intent of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, since he presided over their formation, said in his "Farewell Address": "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars." Sure doesn't sound like Washington was trying to separate religion and politics.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court, and one of the three men most responsible for the writing of the Constitution declared:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty-as well as privilege and interest- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." Still sounds like the Founding Fathers knew this was a Christian nation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]This view, that we were a Christian nation, was hold for almost 150 years until the Everson v. Board of Education ruling in 1947. Before that momentous ruling, even the Supreme Court knew that we were a Christian nation. In 1892 the Court stated:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]"No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people...This is a Christian nation." There it is again! From the Supreme Court of the United States. This court went on to cite 87 precedents (prior actions, words, and rulings) to conclude that this was a "Christian nation".[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In 1854, the House Judiciary Committee said: "in this age, there is no substitute for Christianity...That was the religion of the founders of the republic, and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.'[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]It should be noted here that even as late as 1958 a dissenting judge warned in Baer v. Kolmorgen that if the court did not stop talking about the "separation of Church and State", people were going to start thinking it was part of the Constitution.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]It has been demonstrated in their own words: Ben Franklin, George Washington and John Adams, to the House of Representatives and the Supreme Court, how our founding fathers felt about the mix of politics and religion.[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]When we read articles such as "What's God got to do with it?" (Primack, 5/4) and "The wall between state and church must not be breached" (Tager, 5/7) it just reaffirms how little, even intelligent people, understand about the founding of our great Republic. To say that this nation was not founded as a Christian nation or that the Constitution was not founded on Christian principles is totally at odds with the facts of history."[/SIZE]

Was the USA Founded as a Christian Nation?

So.....you are saying that in all the preparation, rough drafts, examples, etc. leading up to the FINAL DRAFT of the Constitution, god is mentioned....but is LEFT OUT of the Final Draft.......and you call that evidence for YOUR SIDE?

Why do you try so hard to denigrate the genius and wisdom of our Founding Fathers? Why do you try to put them on the Trash Heap of all those others thru out history who cannot or will not remove the baggage of religious superstition from their governing of each other?

They left god out of the Final Draft of the Constitution FOR A PURPOSE. They made a conscious decision at the end that it was the BEST (and bravest) thing to do. And I applaud them for it. You....you try to change history because you cannot deal with it.

 

[AllieBaba]

Yup. I know the founding fathers didn't suddenly decide on the eve of drafting the constitution that their belief in God was no longer a motivating factor.

Again, you really need to study what "found" means. The consistution is not our only foundation document.

 

[AllieBaba]

John Adams:


“The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

 

[AllieBaba]

John Q. Adams:

"
“In the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior. The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.”

 

[Gadawg73]

Nice revision of history.

A little bit of truth thrown in to make it more palatable...I like that.

Point out ANY your claims with specifics.
Are you denying that the Federalists in the election DID NOT call Jefferson an infidel, published pamphlets printed with such language and most churches and preachers of the day then publicly scolded Jefferson for not being Christian enough?
Is that your claim?

 

[Gadawg73]

Allie and her friends here have no clue what a Federalist or anti Federalist was much less what they believed in. They claim that anyone that mentions those facts is a "revisionist".
They believe all of the Founders believed in the same thing, all had the same relgious beliefs, attended and tithed in church weekly and had fire side chats patting each other on the back praising God singing Kum ba ya.
They are the product of government schools.

 

[Gadawg73]

Allie and others here believe that there was no such thing as Federalists and Anti Federalists.
These folks here know nothing of history, the politics of that era and what happened during the revolution, why it was fought and the stuggles in The Continental Convention.
They believe all of the Founders believed exactly the same thing, went to church weekly, tithed all the time and had fire side chats singing

 

[Gadawg73]

Where has ANYONE DISPUTED ANYWHERE THE FOUNDERS BELIEVED IN GOD????
Beliefs do not found nations.
You are a closet liberal Allie.
Rely on beliefs instead of actions just like the liberals do.

 

[bodecea]

Yup. I know the founding fathers didn't suddenly decide on the eve of drafting the constitution that their belief in God was no longer a motivating factor.

Again, you really need to study what "found" means. The consistution is not our only foundation document.

But it IS the foundation of our country, our laws, our government......no matter how much you may want to pretend it is not.


Why do you try to denigrate the wisdom, the innovation of our Founders?

 

[bodecea]

John Adams:


“The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

That is what John Adams SAID.


This is what he DID:

Signed the Treaty of Tripoli.

 

[AllieBaba]

Yes. He signed it when Article 11 was Arabic scribble between two Moslem leaders that meant absolutely nothing.

The Article 11 that you keep crowing about (as if even if it wasn't a fraud it would sideline all the real foundation documents) was added later, by an unknown felon, who, like yourself, wanted to change history.

 

[bodecea]

Yes. He signed it when Article 11 was Arabic scribble between two Moslem leaders that meant absolutely nothing.

The Article 11 that you keep crowing about (as if even if it wasn't a fraud it would sideline all the real foundation documents) was added later, by an unknown felon, who, like yourself, wanted to change history.

Talk about revisionist history, Allie.

Article 11 isn't even in the Arabic copy.


And then, people like you, who cannot or will not face that our Founders were genius' for making the first truely secular country, tried to debunk a document WITH Article 11 in our National Archives. You might want to ask yourself why was and is there such an EFFORT to debunk an actual Treaty in our National Archives.........

Let me help you a little bit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

with this: (bold mine)

The treaty was a routine diplomatic agreement but has gained attention because the English version included a clause about religion in America:[3]
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

and this:

The official treaty was in Arabic text, and a translated version by Consul-General Barlow was ratified by the United States on June 10, 1797. Article 11 of the treaty was said to have not been part of the original Arabic version of the treaty; in its place is a letter from the Dey of Algiers to the Pasha of Tripoli. However, it is the English text which was ratified by Congress. The ratification, though, was merely a token gesture, as it was the product of an ambassador with plenipotentiary powers; and the Treaty was bought at a negotiated price prior to its arrival in Congress.[16]

and more on whether Article 11 was in the Treaty at vote and signing:

However the Arabic and English texts differ, the Barlow translation (Article 11 included) was the text presented to, read aloud in, and ratified unanimously by the U.S. Senate.

 

[AllieBaba]

"The U.S. ratified Treaty of Tripoli cited today as “the original” was an Englishversion copy of an Arabic version copy of the Arabic original (now missing).
3) There is NO Article 11 in the Arabic version of that treaty, experts now agree thatArticle 11 was spuriously inserted into the English copy, and most probably bythe America diplomat Joel Barlow, who helped negotiate the treaty and who washimself a skeptic of Christianity.
4) When the tampered English translation version was presented to Congress forratification in 1797, in spite of Article 11 inserted and included, they had to passthe treaty anyway out of political expedience and immediate urgency to quicklystop the carnage of militant pirate attacks upon American merchant ships in theMediterranean Sea. Because of the situation at hand, there would be no time tore-draft such a treaty and run it through the diplomatic channels again.
5) Eight years later when America gained a military upper hand on the situation, thisTreaty was renegotiated in 1805-6, and the “non-Christian” Article 11 phrase wasconspicuously removed and absent!
6) Those who attempt to use the Treaty of Tripoli as so called evidence proposingthat this nation was not founded on the Christian religion, typically ignore theTreaty of Paris of 1783, which formally ended the Revolutionary War. "

Treaty of Tripoli, Not the 'BARLOW FRAUD' but the TRUE CHRISTIAN Treaty Story

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

On the one hand, it is SWEET that our Founders were so wise as to create the FIRST truely secular government in history not saddled with any of that religious claptrap even tho they themselves were mostly of the Christian persuasion.

I applaud our Founders for the wonderful thing they did DESPITE the christian baggage of over 1500 years.

It's not an issue of "religious baggage". It's an issue of the ideological liberty that the principles of natural law and the God of nature provide in classical theory—for all, the theist, atheist and agnostic alike. Judeo-Christianity proper and the founding principles of this nation are not synonymous, but the latter are derived from the former.

You don't know what you're talking about. Most likely you're just another brainwashed product of the public education system. You're derision is absurd. You're the ignorant fool.

The bottom line: this nation was founded on the socio-political ramifications of the Judeo-Christian ethical system of thought. That is the essence of the Anglo-American tradition of natural law. That is the essence of the principles enunciated in the Declaration of Independence, the document through which the Constitution is to be understood and interpreted.

Those who argue otherwise are either ignoramuses, liars or both. They are ideologues whose agenda is that of statist swine.

 

[AllieBaba]

ThisTreaty, negotiated by Benjamin Franklin and John Adams among others, is truly afoundational document for America, because by this treaty Britain recognizedthe independence of the United States as a nation. The Treaty of Paris of 1783begins with the words, "In the Name of the most holy and undivided Trinity... Ithaving pleased the Divine Providence” *
No qualified historian or explanatory references of any Congressional records have ever questioned, in the least, the validity of those revealing words of that treaty, as they do concerning the falsifiedArticle 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli. *(Treaty of Paris, 1783; International Treatiesand Related Records, 1778-1974; General records of the United StatesGovernment, Record group 11; National Archives)
7) The Treaty of Tripoli argument used against Christian America on the part ofsecular humanists (their “strongest” isolated claim that America was notestablished upon Christianity) is one based on a shallow examination of a thedocument. Its claimed “non-Christian part” is readily admitted by non biasedexperts to have either been fraudulent or some entry that is unaccounted for. Byany standard, the argument lacks credibility due to its obviously spurious nature."

Treaty of Tripoli, Not the 'BARLOW FRAUD' but the TRUE CHRISTIAN Treaty Story

 

[AllieBaba]

"With the culminating events13and ending treaties with the Muslim states of North Africa, there was no mention in anydocument whatsoever, or even close to it, that America was not a Christian nation. For aperson to present a claim that America is not a Christian nation under the Constitution bybasing that deduction upon Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli of 1797 only reveals theirignorance in extreme haste in not knowing the history of the subject matter.At best, the “Article 11 argument” is a shaky fragile reed in trying to build a frameupon which to stand. There are so many holes in the Tripoli Treaty Article 11 theory, allcentered around speculation, distortions, mistranslations, mistrust, and cleric error, thateven a trained and schooled atheist should know better than to rest his anti-Christian/American claim upon such a single clouded piece of history. Evidently, tosome of these blind diehards it doesn’t seem to matter. But for the seeker of truth, let therecords of history speak for themselves. Christians need not apologize to anyone forAmerica being what it is -- God’s Kingdom Nation that will prevail in the end, over allconflicts to derail it from its divine destiny. "
COPYRIGHT (c) 1977 Cambridge Theological Seminary

 

[bodecea]

On the one hand, it is SWEET that our Founders were so wise as to create the FIRST truely secular government in history not saddled with any of that religious claptrap even tho they themselves were mostly of the Christian persuasion.

I applaud our Founders for the wonderful thing they did DESPITE the christian baggage of over 1500 years.

It's not an issue of "religious baggage". It's an issue of the ideological liberty that the principles of natural law and the God of nature provide in classical theory—for all, the theist, atheist and agnostic alike. Judeo-Christianity proper and the founding principles of this nation are not synonymous, but the latter are derived from the former.

You don't know what you're talking about. Most likely you're just another brainwashed product of the public education system. You're derision is absurd. You're the ignorant fool.

Ah, some more of that Christian principle, I see.

The bottom line: this nation was founded on the socio-political ramifications of the Judeo-Christian ethical system of thought. That is the essence of the Anglo-American tradition of natural law. That is the essence of the principles enunciated in the Declaration of Independence, the document through which the Constitution is to be understood and interpreted.

The bottom line is THIS...our nation was UNIQUE at the time it formed. Our Founders went completely 180 degrees from the Judeo-Christian rigamarole that Europe ran on for over 1500 years. Our principles come from the Enlightenment movement, a philosophy at odds with Judeo-Christian principles that European monarchs and governments used for their own benefit and for the abuse of the natural rights of their people.

Why some people want to deny the beauty of what our Founders did is a puzzlement.

Those who argue otherwise are either ignoramuses, liars or both. They are ideologues whose agenda is that of statist swine.

Ah, more Christian principles....

 

[bodecea]

ThisTreaty, negotiated by Benjamin Franklin and John Adams among others, is truly afoundational document for America, because by this treaty Britain recognizedthe independence of the United States as a nation. The Treaty of Paris of 1783begins with the words, "In the Name of the most holy and undivided Trinity... Ithaving pleased the Divine Providence” *
No qualified historian or explanatory references of any Congressional records have ever questioned, in the least, the validity of those revealing words of that treaty, as they do concerning the falsifiedArticle 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli. *(Treaty of Paris, 1783; International Treatiesand Related Records, 1778-1974; General records of the United StatesGovernment, Record group 11; National Archives)
7) The Treaty of Tripoli argument used against Christian America on the part ofsecular humanists (their “strongest” isolated claim that America was notestablished upon Christianity) is one based on a shallow examination of a thedocument. Its claimed “non-Christian part” is readily admitted by non biasedexperts to have either been fraudulent or some entry that is unaccounted for. Byany standard, the argument lacks credibility due to its obviously spurious nature."

Treaty of Tripoli, Not the 'BARLOW FRAUD' but the TRUE CHRISTIAN Treaty Story

Someone sure is trying hard to debunk the FACT that the Treaty of Tripoli says what it says IN ENGLISH...and that ENGLISH version is what was unanimously voted on by the Senate and signed by the same John Adams you like to quote. Nothing you try to fake changes that.