The U.S. NOT founded upon Christianity

[bodecea]

Uh...wrong again.

Uh...tell us again how Patrick Henry was a ratifier of the U.S. Constitution.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

It is true that Patrick Henry opposed the Constitution as presented for ratification because he thought it would create too strong a central government. As an anti-Federalist he was much more a libertarian/Classical Liberal than even those who approved the Constitution. And he refused elective public office on the same principle.

He WAS instrumental in the adoption of the Bill of Rights, however, and we can thank him and others like him for attention to protecting unalienable rights to a greater degree than the initial Framers.

And he was absolutely 100% convinced that the nation was founded on Christian principles and the Constitution as framed supported that concept.

From AllieBaba's post:

It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here. —Patrick Henry​

Regardless of Henry's position on the Constitution, the point that has been made over and over again is that the Republic was founded on the socio-political ramifications of Judeo-Christianity, not on the imperatives of any other religious system of thought, not on the collectivist political theory of Continental Europe or any other statist paradigm.

bodecea just likes to avoid the idea of the founding and jump to the Constitution, as if the latter could rightly be interpreted without the founding principle anyway. But, of course, the theory upon which the nation was founded is irrefutable, so bodecea keeps trying to jump the shark.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.​

Of course, "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is Jefferson's paraphrase of Locke's triadic construct of life, liberty and property.

On another thread I explained to The Rabbi, who had no idea what I was talking about, btw, and pretended to know things about that which he is clueless (LOL!):

John Locke extrapolated his political theory of natural law in the Two Treatises of Government from the Judeo-Christian ethical system of thought, i.e., the socio-political ramifications of the Judeo-Christian construct of free will and the preeminence of the Creator over the State; these entail the self-determination and free-association of the Anglo-American tradition of classical liberalism predicated on (1) the sanctity of human life, (2) unbridgeable rights and (3) the notion that the family of nature is the first principle of private property, you know, as in the Declaration of Independence.​

LINK

Was Locke's political theory derived from the moral imperatives of biblical doctrine as they pertain to civil government?

Yes. Absolutely!

Did the Founders of this country prize the Lockean construct of natural law above all others?

Yes. Absolutely!

Do the political aspects of any other religious or secular system of thought provide for universal ideological liberty—for the theist of every stripe, the atheist and the agnostic? Did any others recognize the preeminence of individual free will above that of the collective will?

Hell no! They are all the stuff of statist theocracies or secular collectivisms, the people ruled by the few or by the mob, the individual trampled beneath their feet.

 

[bodecea]

It is true that Patrick Henry opposed the Constitution as presented for ratification because he thought it would create too strong a central government. As an anti-Federalist he was much more a libertarian/Classical Liberal than even those who approved the Constitution. And he refused elective public office on the same principle.

He WAS instrumental in the adoption of the Bill of Rights, however, and we can thank him and others like him for attention to protecting unalienable rights to a greater degree than the initial Framers.

And he was absolutely 100% convinced that the nation was founded on Christian principles and the Constitution as framed supported that concept.

From AllieBaba's post:

It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here. —Patrick Henry​

Regardless of Henry's position on the Constitution, the point that has been made over and over again is that the Republic was founded on the socio-political ramifications of Judeo-Christianity, not on the imperatives of any other religious system of thought, not on the collectivist political theory of Continental Europe or any other statist paradigm.

bodecea just likes to avoid the idea of the founding and jump to the Constitution, as if the latter could rightly be interpreted without the founding principle anyway. But, of course, the theory upon which the nation was founded is irrefutable, so bodecea keeps trying to jump the shark.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.​

Of course, "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" is Jefferson's paraphrase of Locke's triadic construct of life, liberty and property.

On another thread I explained to The Rabbi, who had no idea what I was talking about, btw, and pretended to know things about that which he is clueless (LOL!):

John Locke extrapolated his political theory of natural law in the Two Treatises of Government from the Judeo-Christian ethical system of thought, i.e., the socio-political ramifications of the Judeo-Christian construct of free will and the preeminence of the Creator over the State; these entail the self-determination and free-association of the Anglo-American tradition of classical liberalism predicated on (1) the sanctity of human life, (2) unbridgeable rights and (3) the notion that the family of nature is the first principle of private property, you know, as in the Declaration of Independence.​

LINK

Was Locke's political theory derived from the moral imperatives of biblical doctrine as they pertain to civil government?

Yes. Absolutely!

Did the Founders of this country prize the Lockean construct of natural law above all others?

Yes. Absolutely!

Do the political aspects of any other religious or secular system of thought provide for universal ideological liberty—for the theist of every stripe, the atheist and the agnostic? Did any others recognize the preeminence of individual free will above that of the collective will?

Hell no! They are all the stuff of statist theocracies or secular collectivisms, the people ruled by the few or by the mob, the individual trampled beneath their feet.

Tell me more about John Locke getting his ideas of Natural Rights from Judeo-Christian systems of thought.

 

[Foxfyre]

M.D.R. be assured that question has been answered again and again and again in this thread. Bodecea won't debate you but will just keep repeating the questions and when everybody is finally sick of them will declare victory.

I am on the record that those arguing opposite Bodecea, Gadawg, and others here have adequately made their case and have not been rebutted with anything credible or verifiable.

Those for the USA being founded on Christian principles - WIN
Those opposed - LOSE

 

[AllieBaba]

M.D.R. be assured that question has been answered again and again and again in this thread. Bodecea won't debate you but will just keep repeating the questions and when everybody is finally sick of them will declare victory.

I am on the record that those arguing opposite Bodecea, Gadawg, and others here have adequately made their case and have not been rebutted with anything credible or verifiable.

Those for the USA being founded on Christian principles - WIN
Those opposed - LOSE

You can't win against people who don't understand what truth, fact and knowledge are. They don't get humanity, they don't understand honor, and their whole existence is facile. I just can't figure out if they know that and like it, or if they're just so pathetic they can't move off that plane....

 

[Gadawg73]

Christianity and it's principles are RELIGION.
The United States of America was not founded on religion.

 

[Gadawg73]

M.D.R. be assured that question has been answered again and again and again in this thread. Bodecea won't debate you but will just keep repeating the questions and when everybody is finally sick of them will declare victory.

I am on the record that those arguing opposite Bodecea, Gadawg, and others here have adequately made their case and have not been rebutted with anything credible or verifiable.

Those for the USA being founded on Christian principles - WIN
Those opposed - LOSE

You can't win against people who don't understand what truth, fact and knowledge are. They don't get humanity, they don't understand honor, and their whole existence is facile. I just can't figure out if they know that and like it, or if they're just so pathetic they can't move off that plane....

Sticks and stones with the white towel thrown in behind it.
I like it!

 

[bodecea]

M.D.R. be assured that question has been answered again and again and again in this thread. Bodecea won't debate you but will just keep repeating the questions and when everybody is finally sick of them will declare victory.

I am on the record that those arguing opposite Bodecea, Gadawg, and others here have adequately made their case and have not been rebutted with anything credible or verifiable.

Those for the USA being founded on Christian principles - WIN
Those opposed - LOSE

I'd like to hear more on his thoughts on John Locke using Judeo_Christian thought in his Treatises.....

So, why do you want to stop all debate at this point...and declare an unproven victory? Do you sense failure if you do not stop debate now?

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

M.D.R. be assured that question has been answered again and again and again in this thread. Bodecea won't debate you but will just keep repeating the questions and when everybody is finally sick of them will declare victory.

I am on the record that those arguing opposite Bodecea, Gadawg, and others here have adequately made their case and have not been rebutted with anything credible or verifiable.

Those for the USA being founded on Christian principles - WIN
Those opposed - LOSE

I see.

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Christianity and it's principles are RELIGION.
The United States of America was not founded on religion.

You haven't understood anything. Your statement is nonsensical, your ignorance, astounding.

 

[bodecea]

Christianity and it's principles are RELIGION.
The United States of America was not founded on religion.

You haven't understood anything. Your statement is nonsensical, your ignorance, astounding.

His statement is nonsensical? Wait....are you saying that the United States WAS founded on religion? Seriously? Please clarify.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Christianity and it's principles are RELIGION.
The United States of America was not founded on religion.

You haven't understood anything. Your statement is nonsensical, your ignorance, astounding.

His statement is nonsensical? Wait....are you saying that the United States WAS founded on religion? Seriously? Please clarify.

Are you saying religion had nothing at all to do with the founding of this nation?

 

[AllieBaba]

Sometimes she says that. Sometimes she doesn't. Sometimes she pretends "found" is the same thing as "create a theocracy".

Here's what Bod does in a nutshell. You make a point, and it's a good point. This usually happens about 2 minutes after she's posted some ridiculous statement about something she knows nothing about.

Instead of addressing the statement you made, or even referring to her own statement, she will try to get you to make a completely different, unrelated statement.

For example, Bod says "The tribe of the Torrance was tortured by Reagan during an expedition to Galadar in 1585."

You say "Reagan wasn't alive in 1585."
Bod: "Are you saying that in 1585 there was no Torrance Tribe in Galadar???!!"

Puzzled, you say, "What?"
Bod says "I WIN!!"

 

[AllieBaba]

Followed by, "You must really think about me a lot!"

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

I'd like to hear more on his thoughts on John Locke using Judeo_Christian thought in his Treatises.....

So, why do you want to stop all debate at this point...and declare an unproven victory? Do you sense failure if you do not stop debate now?

It's not a matter of winning or losing. It's a matter of knowing or not knowing your history and understanding the nature of the Republic's political heritage.

It's not my treatise. LOL! It's a simple historical factoid. Apparently, you are strictly a product of the public education system.

During the colonial era the works of three thinkers above all others owned the ideological terrain of the Anglo-American ethos: Newton (the order and mechanics of heavenly bodies), Locke (political theory) and Bacon (scientific theory).

The revolutionaries argued Locke, the Founders argued Locke, the Framers argued Locke.

Locke, Locke, Locke.

Where have you been? Indeed, up until the last forty years or so, this was common knowledge, an every-day-walk-in-the-park aspect of an American education.

Sad. Tragic. Decline and Fall.

Start with the Two Treatises of Government and the Essay Concerning Toleration. Then study the works of the revolutionaries, the Founders and the Framers concerning the works of Locke.

I see that any further discussion is otherwise futile. Get back to me in a month.

 

[bodecea]

You haven't understood anything. Your statement is nonsensical, your ignorance, astounding.

His statement is nonsensical? Wait....are you saying that the United States WAS founded on religion? Seriously? Please clarify.

Are you saying religion had nothing at all to do with the founding of this nation?

Some...most of our founders practiced various versions of Christianity....but they were extremely wise and left that out of the creation of our government. They made the FIRST country truely secular in nature with no one religion influencing thought. They are to be greatly honored for their innovation and brilliance. Our Constitution is the greatest blueprint for government ever written...ever. And it is completely secular in nature.

Edited to add: There were those at the Constitutional Convention that wanted Christianity injected into our Country's foundation...they lost the argument.

 

[bodecea]

I'd like to hear more on his thoughts on John Locke using Judeo_Christian thought in his Treatises.....

So, why do you want to stop all debate at this point...and declare an unproven victory? Do you sense failure if you do not stop debate now?

It's not a matter of winning or losing. It's a matter of knowing or not knowing your history and understanding the nature of the Republic's political heritage.

It's not my treatise. LOL! It's a simple historical factoid. Apparently, you are strictly a product of the public education system.

Ah, I love those little personal shots of Christian principle.

During the colonial era the works of three thinkers above all others owned the ideological terrain of the Anglo-American ethos: Newton (the order and mechanics of heavenly bodies), Locke (political theory) and Bacon (scientific theory).

The revolutionaries argued Locke, the Founders argued Locke, the Framers argued Locke.

Locke, Locke, Locke.

Where have you been? Indeed, up until the last forty years or so, this was common knowledge, an every-day-walk-in-the-park aspect of an American education.

Sad. Tragic. Decline and Fall.

Start with the Two Treatises of Government and the Essay Concerning Toleration. Then study the works of the revolutionaries, the Founders and the Framers concerning the works of Locke.

I see that any further discussion is otherwise futile. Get back to me in a month.

Actually I totally agree that Locke is the primary foundation of our Founders ideas. Locke is the PREMIER political science philosopher of the Enlightenment. My question is on your stating that HE was restating already established judeo-christian principles. I was hoping you could provide a distinct connection....and not be insulting about it.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

His statement is nonsensical? Wait....are you saying that the United States WAS founded on religion? Seriously? Please clarify.

Are you saying religion had nothing at all to do with the founding of this nation?

Some...most of our founders practiced various versions of Christianity....but they were extremely wise and left that out of the creation of our government. They made the FIRST country truely secular in nature with no one religion influencing thought. They are to be greatly honored for their innovation and brilliance. Our Constitution is the greatest blueprint for government ever written...ever. And it is completely secular in nature.

You still don't get it.

What part of founding this nation do you not understand?

The creation of the government was AFTER this country was founded as was the Constitution.

 

[Uncensored2008]

what god?

If he said "Gaia" would you suddenly agree?

 

[Uncensored2008]

And does that make me in some way.....less?

No, of course not.















Voting for Barack Obama does, though.......