The Way it Was (Pre-Roe v Wade)

[Dragonlady]

We are already doing that and have been doing it for years, yet abortions go up every year. Plain and simple, it's used for birth control, which is unacceptable. When there are no consequences to deter behavior, the behavior will continue, not only continue but expand and flourish. The further this country moves to the left, the more consequences are taken away. It's not a good thing, and we will pay for it down the road.

Do I understand you correctly? You want girls and women to be forced to carry children they don't want to term simply to punish them for not using birth control? Well at least you're honest about it.

So are you prepared to force the men who fathered these children to pay child support for them as their part in these consequences? Or do the boys get off scott free because boys will be boys. Why should the boys be allowed to have sex without consequences if the girls can't?

Unwanted children have lower IQ's, and higher rates of juvenile delinquency than children who are loved and wanted. Even in the womb, it appears that children can sense if they're loved and wanted. As much as I wish there were no abortions, I would rather a child grow up knowing he or she was always loved and wanted.

But yes, by all means, lets force women to bear unwanted children. That worked really well in the era before legal abortions.

 

[Noomi]

No offense, Delia, but I found the article just another endless excuse for why women should be allowed to murder their unborn children. Especially disgusting is that she's trying to rationalize partial birth abortions, we all know that if they weren't illegal, it wouldn't be '12 year olds raped by their uncle' that would be getting them. Just like it isn't '12 year olds raped by their uncles' that are responsible for the millions of babies killed every year in this country, and the millions of dollars in literal blood money the abortion industry makes off of these 'poor women who are just victims'. Just so tired of hearing it.

Fetuses aren't babies.

They aren't?

Please point to a single human being who was never a fetus. Please point to any stage in the process of the fertilized egg dividing and developing into a functioning human being that is any less important than any other stage.

Please point to a single woman who has said to you: "I am pregnant with a zygote. Or I am pregnant with a fetus. I never was. I was pregnant with my child, my baby, precious, important, loved, and with all the potential to be a great addition to the human race.

When a woman is pregnant, she says 'I am going to have a baby'. That implies a baby doesn't yet exist.

 

[sealadaigh]

Fetuses aren't babies.

They aren't?

Please point to a single human being who was never a fetus. Please point to any stage in the process of the fertilized egg dividing and developing into a functioning human being that is any less important than any other stage.

Please point to a single woman who has said to you: "I am pregnant with a zygote. Or I am pregnant with a fetus. I never was. I was pregnant with my child, my baby, precious, important, loved, and with all the potential to be a great addition to the human race.

When a woman is pregnant, she says 'I am going to have a baby'. That implies a baby doesn't yet exist.

c'mon noomi. that's a stretch. you're better than that.

i am opposed to abortion for one reason and one reason only. a human fetus is human life and i am not quite ready to arbitrarily decide when that life is or isn't valuable.

also, i am a man who has always very strongly advocated for equal rights for men and women completely and until those people who are pro-choice consider the father's wishes in the matter...well...that offends me.

it is a can of worms and i think people are standing on their positions with no consideration being given to the parties directly involved, as a whole, and one of those parties is the fetal child.

what if the father wants the mother to have the child and the mother wants to have an abortion?

what if the mother wants the child and the father wants her to have an abortion?

i do know many men who are or have raised their child)ren) on their own. that includes me.

 

[Underhill]

They aren't?

Please point to a single human being who was never a fetus. Please point to any stage in the process of the fertilized egg dividing and developing into a functioning human being that is any less important than any other stage.

Please point to a single woman who has said to you: "I am pregnant with a zygote. Or I am pregnant with a fetus. I never was. I was pregnant with my child, my baby, precious, important, loved, and with all the potential to be a great addition to the human race.

When a woman is pregnant, she says 'I am going to have a baby'. That implies a baby doesn't yet exist.

c'mon noomi. that's a stretch. you're better than that.

i am opposed to abortion for one reason and one reason only. a human fetus is human life and i am not quite ready to arbitrarily decide when that life is or isn't valuable.

also, i am a man who has always very strongly advocated for equal rights for men and women completely and until those people who are pro-choice consider the father's wishes in the matter...well...that offends me.

it is a can of worms and i think people are standing on their positions with no consideration being given to the parties directly involved, as a whole, and one of those parties is the fetal child.

what if the father wants the mother to have the child and the mother wants to have an abortion?

what if the mother wants the child and the father wants her to have an abortion?

i do know many men who are or have raised their child)ren) on their own. that includes me.

I give consideration to the potential child. But I weigh those considerations against those of the mother who has to carry him for 9 months and pay for him for another 20. I love my kids. But I would not force anyone into having them.

There are too many bad parents out there already, we really don't need more. I think that when you weigh the partially formed life against that of the mother, yes the father, the cost, the potential for a miserable life for an unwanted child...

The picture is not as clear as some on your side want to paint it.

 

[Newby]

Depends. For adults, yes the corner drugstore is adequate. For teens, not so much. Personally I think it should be available at the school nurse. Hell, make it mail order. Anything we can do to make it easier...

So to hell with the parents and any authority they should have over their own children? They are still children, and the parents should be notified of anything that is given to their kids from a medical standpoint, or even a standpoint of where their children could be in emotional or psychological danger. You're just willing to get out of the way and let the government raise your daughter? You want some stranger handing her potentially harmful medication for free without your knowledge?

Yes to hell with parental authority. I realize it isn't a popular thought, but I would rather a teen receive contraceptives if needed than be too afraid to go get them because they are required to tell daddy.

Think about the teens who end up moms at 13-16. I think it's fair to say many, if not most, do not come from the best homes.

Parental authority can be wonderful if you have responsible, reasonable and well educated parents. But way, way ,way too often that is not the case.

Wow, that's a pretty sad point of view you have there. If you want to give up your rights as a parent to the state to raise your child as they see fit, more power to you, but it will happen to me over my dead body. Do you even realize what you're saying you're in favor of here? Why stop at birth control? Maybe you don't feed them well enough? Maybe you leave them alone too much, so they should removed from your care? The power you're willing to relinguish to the state over your own children is never ending once you start to give it away. Very sad.

Who decides who is 'responsible' and 'reasonable'? The state? Then when they decide that you're neither, they get to take over? Scary road you're going down. It always starts with something small, like birth control, then the rationalizations start for the next thing, and the next..

 

[Katzndogz]

We are already doing that and have been doing it for years, yet abortions go up every year. Plain and simple, it's used for birth control, which is unacceptable. When there are no consequences to deter behavior, the behavior will continue, not only continue but expand and flourish. The further this country moves to the left, the more consequences are taken away. It's not a good thing, and we will pay for it down the road.

Do I understand you correctly? You want girls and women to be forced to carry children they don't want to term simply to punish them for not using birth control? Well at least you're honest about it.

So are you prepared to force the men who fathered these children to pay child support for them as their part in these consequences? Or do the boys get off scott free because boys will be boys. Why should the boys be allowed to have sex without consequences if the girls can't?

Unwanted children have lower IQ's, and higher rates of juvenile delinquency than children who are loved and wanted. Even in the womb, it appears that children can sense if they're loved and wanted. As much as I wish there were no abortions, I would rather a child grow up knowing he or she was always loved and wanted.

But yes, by all means, lets force women to bear unwanted children. That worked really well in the era before legal abortions.

Actually you'd rather they were dead than grow up at all. But how about this. A compromise. We permit women to have abortions and if they do, start prosecuting the fathers for murder. After all, it was their act that ended up with a dead baby.

 

[Underhill]

So to hell with the parents and any authority they should have over their own children? They are still children, and the parents should be notified of anything that is given to their kids from a medical standpoint, or even a standpoint of where their children could be in emotional or psychological danger. You're just willing to get out of the way and let the government raise your daughter? You want some stranger handing her potentially harmful medication for free without your knowledge?

Yes to hell with parental authority. I realize it isn't a popular thought, but I would rather a teen receive contraceptives if needed than be too afraid to go get them because they are required to tell daddy.

Think about the teens who end up moms at 13-16. I think it's fair to say many, if not most, do not come from the best homes.

Parental authority can be wonderful if you have responsible, reasonable and well educated parents. But way, way ,way too often that is not the case.

Wow, that's a pretty sad point of view you have there. If you want to give up your rights as a parent to the state to raise your child as they see fit, more power to you, but it will happen to me over my dead body. Do you even realize what you're saying you're in favor of here? Why stop at birth control? Maybe you don't feed them well enough? Maybe you leave them alone too much, so they should removed from your care? The power you're willing to relinguish to the state over your own children is never ending once you start to give it away. Very sad.

Who decides who is 'responsible' and 'reasonable'? The state? Then when they decide that you're neither, they get to take over? Scary road you're going down. It always starts with something small, like birth control, then the rationalizations start for the next thing, and the next..

Sorry to inform you, but you're a bit late to the party. Kids are taken from parents all the time for neglect.

Why would this be any different than school lunches? I can understand if it's morally ambiguous. But this isn't. Every teen who is having sex should have birth control. It's that simple. So no, I don't see it any different than feeding them at school without getting permission from the parents.

And I don't think the state needs to judge parent's. Simply make it available to all. As I said, what is the downside?

 

[regent]

Roe v Wade did not start abortions, they have probably been around for a long time, just not performed in medical centers by doctors, but rather by someone, with some kind of instruments and a safe place.

 

[Katzndogz]

When a woman is pregnant, she says 'I am going to have a baby'. That implies a baby doesn't yet exist.

c'mon noomi. that's a stretch. you're better than that.

i am opposed to abortion for one reason and one reason only. a human fetus is human life and i am not quite ready to arbitrarily decide when that life is or isn't valuable.

also, i am a man who has always very strongly advocated for equal rights for men and women completely and until those people who are pro-choice consider the father's wishes in the matter...well...that offends me.

it is a can of worms and i think people are standing on their positions with no consideration being given to the parties directly involved, as a whole, and one of those parties is the fetal child.

what if the father wants the mother to have the child and the mother wants to have an abortion?

what if the mother wants the child and the father wants her to have an abortion?

i do know many men who are or have raised their child)ren) on their own. that includes me.

I give consideration to the potential child. But I weigh those considerations against those of the mother who has to carry him for 9 months and pay for him for another 20. I love my kids. But I would not force anyone into having them.

There are too many bad parents out there already, we really don't need more. I think that when you weigh the partially formed life against that of the mother, yes the father, the cost, the potential for a miserable life for an unwanted child...

The picture is not as clear as some on your side want to paint it.

Except that those children ARE wanted! They might not be wanted by their parents, but they are still wanted. Otherwise we wouldn't have 60,000 babies adopted from Russia alone. Almost 5,000 more than that are adopted from China, every year.

The solution is, of course, to persuade women to delay sexual gratification or achieve it in ways other than by promiscuity. This means penalties, but not always legal penalties. There was a time when a girl getting pregnant could expect to be expelled from school, her family might go so far as to put her out on the street. She would be friendless and ostracized. The social penalties alone were enough to make girls think twice before spreading their legs. Today, girls feel obligated to have sex as early as possible, certainly pre menstrual, otherwise what kind of pictures would they be able to send to the kids who go to their school?

 

[Delia]

They aren't?

Please point to a single human being who was never a fetus. Please point to any stage in the process of the fertilized egg dividing and developing into a functioning human being that is any less important than any other stage.

Please point to a single woman who has said to you: "I am pregnant with a zygote. Or I am pregnant with a fetus. I never was. I was pregnant with my child, my baby, precious, important, loved, and with all the potential to be a great addition to the human race.

When a woman is pregnant, she says 'I am going to have a baby'. That implies a baby doesn't yet exist.

c'mon noomi. that's a stretch. you're better than that.

i am opposed to abortion for one reason and one reason only. a human fetus is human life and i am not quite ready to arbitrarily decide when that life is or isn't valuable.

also, i am a man who has always very strongly advocated for equal rights for men and women completely and until those people who are pro-choice consider the father's wishes in the matter...well...that offends me.

it is a can of worms and i think people are standing on their positions with no consideration being given to the parties directly involved, as a whole, and one of those parties is the fetal child.

what if the father wants the mother to have the child and the mother wants to have an abortion?

what if the mother wants the child and the father wants her to have an abortion?

i do know many men who are or have raised their child)ren) on their own. that includes me.

To the bolded; yes. Did you read the entire article? Did you watch the video.

 

[Foxfyre]

Fetuses aren't babies.

They aren't?

Please point to a single human being who was never a fetus. Please point to any stage in the process of the fertilized egg dividing and developing into a functioning human being that is any less important than any other stage.

Please point to a single woman who has said to you: "I am pregnant with a zygote. Or I am pregnant with a fetus. I never was. I was pregnant with my child, my baby, precious, important, loved, and with all the potential to be a great addition to the human race.

When a woman is pregnant, she says 'I am going to have a baby'. That implies a baby doesn't yet exist.

Not to me it doesn't. My children expressed personality even within the womb. Each very different. But the fact remains, there is no stage of human development that is any less important than any other stage of human development in any of our lives.

I am not saying there is never a valid reason for abortion. I will not judge the woman who is pregnant via rape or incest or who has no hope of giving birth to a healthy baby. I am all for the woman making a decision with her doctor early in the pregnancy and that should be none of our business.

But unless we as a people regain a sense of the sanctity of life and an appreciation that each life is precious--you don't have to be religious to understand that--I fear for our future. The unborn is a life as much as you and I are a life. And it should never be casually thrown away just because it is inconvenient to the mother.

At the same time, every one of us should take responsibility for the life we help create, and if we are not ready to be a mother or father, we can either wait on the sex or take proper precautions to prevent a pregnancy.

And yes, the man who helps create that new life should be required to be every bit as responsible for its care, well being, education, etc. as the mother. The guys are just as capable of being responsible as the women are. And no man should ever have the right to demand that the woman kill that life they created together or he will have nothing to do with it.

 

[Delia]

So to hell with the parents and any authority they should have over their own children? They are still children, and the parents should be notified of anything that is given to their kids from a medical standpoint, or even a standpoint of where their children could be in emotional or psychological danger. You're just willing to get out of the way and let the government raise your daughter? You want some stranger handing her potentially harmful medication for free without your knowledge?

Yes to hell with parental authority. I realize it isn't a popular thought, but I would rather a teen receive contraceptives if needed than be too afraid to go get them because they are required to tell daddy.

Think about the teens who end up moms at 13-16. I think it's fair to say many, if not most, do not come from the best homes.

Parental authority can be wonderful if you have responsible, reasonable and well educated parents. But way, way ,way too often that is not the case.

Wow, that's a pretty sad point of view you have there. If you want to give up your rights as a parent to the state to raise your child as they see fit, more power to you, but it will happen to me over my dead body. Do you even realize what you're saying you're in favor of here? Why stop at birth control? Maybe you don't feed them well enough? Maybe you leave them alone too much, so they should removed from your care? The power you're willing to relinguish to the state over your own children is never ending once you start to give it away. Very sad.

Who decides who is 'responsible' and 'reasonable'? The state? Then when they decide that you're neither, they get to take over? Scary road you're going down. It always starts with something small, like birth control, then the rationalizations start for the next thing, and the next..

To the bold in red; are you really that bad a parent that your child would not turn to you in their time of need?

Do you honestly believe that all parents are fit to be included in that decision? I can say with certainty that somebody forced to carry a child to term is not going to be a great parent. Fortunately, at this point we don't have to let them prove it. You don't want to wear the mom title? Fine. You don't have to.

Within this thread, all I hear is "she has to stay pregnant. The ZEF has a 'right to life'" *unless the church attorney's decide for the winning of their case that life begins at birth* - but after that? Utter silence. Not a blessed peep.

 

[Delia]

Yes to hell with parental authority. I realize it isn't a popular thought, but I would rather a teen receive contraceptives if needed than be too afraid to go get them because they are required to tell daddy.

Think about the teens who end up moms at 13-16. I think it's fair to say many, if not most, do not come from the best homes.

Parental authority can be wonderful if you have responsible, reasonable and well educated parents. But way, way ,way too often that is not the case.

Wow, that's a pretty sad point of view you have there. If you want to give up your rights as a parent to the state to raise your child as they see fit, more power to you, but it will happen to me over my dead body. Do you even realize what you're saying you're in favor of here? Why stop at birth control? Maybe you don't feed them well enough? Maybe you leave them alone too much, so they should removed from your care? The power you're willing to relinguish to the state over your own children is never ending once you start to give it away. Very sad.

Who decides who is 'responsible' and 'reasonable'? The state? Then when they decide that you're neither, they get to take over? Scary road you're going down. It always starts with something small, like birth control, then the rationalizations start for the next thing, and the next..

Sorry to inform you, but you're a bit late to the party. Kids are taken from parents all the time for neglect.

Why would this be any different than school lunches? I can understand if it's morally ambiguous. But this isn't. Every teen who is having sex should have birth control. It's that simple. So no, I don't see it any different than feeding them at school without getting permission from the parents.

And I don't think the state needs to judge parent's. Simply make it available to all. As I said, what is the downside?

The downside is kids might start thinking for themselves, rather than blindly following the path their parents placed them on.

 

[Delia]

c'mon noomi. that's a stretch. you're better than that.

i am opposed to abortion for one reason and one reason only. a human fetus is human life and i am not quite ready to arbitrarily decide when that life is or isn't valuable.

also, i am a man who has always very strongly advocated for equal rights for men and women completely and until those people who are pro-choice consider the father's wishes in the matter...well...that offends me.

it is a can of worms and i think people are standing on their positions with no consideration being given to the parties directly involved, as a whole, and one of those parties is the fetal child.

what if the father wants the mother to have the child and the mother wants to have an abortion?

what if the mother wants the child and the father wants her to have an abortion?

i do know many men who are or have raised their child)ren) on their own. that includes me.

I give consideration to the potential child. But I weigh those considerations against those of the mother who has to carry him for 9 months and pay for him for another 20. I love my kids. But I would not force anyone into having them.

There are too many bad parents out there already, we really don't need more. I think that when you weigh the partially formed life against that of the mother, yes the father, the cost, the potential for a miserable life for an unwanted child...

The picture is not as clear as some on your side want to paint it.

Except that those children ARE wanted! They might not be wanted by their parents, but they are still wanted. Otherwise we wouldn't have 60,000 babies adopted from Russia alone. Almost 5,000 more than that are adopted from China, every year.

The solution is, of course, to persuade women to delay sexual gratification or achieve it in ways other than by promiscuity. This means penalties, but not always legal penalties. There was a time when a girl getting pregnant could expect to be expelled from school, her family might go so far as to put her out on the street. She would be friendless and ostracized. The social penalties alone were enough to make girls think twice before spreading their legs. Today, girls feel obligated to have sex as early as possible, certainly pre menstrual, otherwise what kind of pictures would they be able to send to the kids who go to their school?

Of course! Because the children from Russia are white. Now: What's the adoption rate for black children in America. Hispanic? Special needs?

 

[Underhill]

c'mon noomi. that's a stretch. you're better than that.

i am opposed to abortion for one reason and one reason only. a human fetus is human life and i am not quite ready to arbitrarily decide when that life is or isn't valuable.

also, i am a man who has always very strongly advocated for equal rights for men and women completely and until those people who are pro-choice consider the father's wishes in the matter...well...that offends me.

it is a can of worms and i think people are standing on their positions with no consideration being given to the parties directly involved, as a whole, and one of those parties is the fetal child.

what if the father wants the mother to have the child and the mother wants to have an abortion?

what if the mother wants the child and the father wants her to have an abortion?

i do know many men who are or have raised their child)ren) on their own. that includes me.

I give consideration to the potential child. But I weigh those considerations against those of the mother who has to carry him for 9 months and pay for him for another 20. I love my kids. But I would not force anyone into having them.

There are too many bad parents out there already, we really don't need more. I think that when you weigh the partially formed life against that of the mother, yes the father, the cost, the potential for a miserable life for an unwanted child...

The picture is not as clear as some on your side want to paint it.

Except that those children ARE wanted! They might not be wanted by their parents, but they are still wanted. Otherwise we wouldn't have 60,000 babies adopted from Russia alone. Almost 5,000 more than that are adopted from China, every year.

The solution is, of course, to persuade women to delay sexual gratification or achieve it in ways other than by promiscuity. This means penalties, but not always legal penalties. There was a time when a girl getting pregnant could expect to be expelled from school, her family might go so far as to put her out on the street. She would be friendless and ostracized. The social penalties alone were enough to make girls think twice before spreading their legs. Today, girls feel obligated to have sex as early as possible, certainly pre menstrual, otherwise what kind of pictures would they be able to send to the kids who go to their school?

So far as I'm concerned that is a separate problem. One I am willing to talk about. But I am dealing with the reality we live in. Where 80% of high school kids are sexually active.

And in that reality doing anything other than preparing them, is morally reprehensible.

As for adoption... sounds good. But it also sounds unrealistic. How many woman actually give up their babies for adoption? Very few. And this was true even before Roe v Wade. Getting rid of abortion will mean more adoptions, but it will also mean a lot more kids in poor homes, unfit homes, single mother homes... not to mention on the street.

 

[Dragonlady]

Actually you'd rather they were dead than grow up at all. But how about this. A compromise. We permit women to have abortions and if they do, start prosecuting the fathers for murder. After all, it was their act that ended up with a dead baby.

First off, an aborted fetus is NOT a dead baby. The father gets no say in this decision, because he is NOT pregnant.

This whole idea that people who favour choice, hate children is also false and ridiculous. I have three children who I love dearly. I chose to have these children and to raise them. My children know they are loved and wanted, as should all children. That gives them the confidence to succeed in the world.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

I'm pro-choice, though that is not a choice I would ever make for myself.

Really? So if you become pregnant who will make the decision if not you?

 

[Delia]

I'm pro-choice, though that is not a choice I would ever make for myself.

Really? So if you become pregnant who will make the decision if not you?

In honor of the fact that pregnancy must not happen due to my health issues, both my husband and I have taken medical steps to ensure said decision will never need to be made.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

I'm pro-choice, though that is not a choice I would ever make for myself.

Really? So if you become pregnant who will make the decision if not you?

In honor of the fact that pregnancy must not happen due to my health issues, both my husband and I have taken medical steps to ensure said decision will never need to be made.

You never know. My youngest sister should have never been possible.

 

[Delia]

Really? So if you become pregnant who will make the decision if not you?

In honor of the fact that pregnancy must not happen due to my health issues, both my husband and I have taken medical steps to ensure said decision will never need to be made.

You never know. My youngest sister should have never been possible.

I'm not saying it's not possible. I'm saying a pregnancy would kill me. Therefore, he had a vasectomy six months before the wedding, and I had my tubes cut and cauterized.