Vermont plans launch of ‘universal’ health care system: It’s a ‘right and not a privi

[LoneLaugher]

Canada did it one Province at a time in the beginning. Trial and error. We will get there.

And the result is a right to a waiting list, not healthcare.

Let's see: You take a desirable thing, in this case healthcare, and you make it free. As cost declines, demand rises. BUt as cost declines supply also declines. The result is called "shortage", dealt with by rationing.
Yup, basic Econ 101, the subject libs keep failing.

Flawed.

The need for medical attention does not rise with lowering costs. To think that people won't get sick or injured if the cost for treatment is too high is pretty much retarded.

Health care is not a commodity.

Fuck.

 

[percysunshine]

And the result is a right to a waiting list, not healthcare.

Let's see: You take a desirable thing, in this case healthcare, and you make it free. As cost declines, demand rises. BUt as cost declines supply also declines. The result is called "shortage", dealt with by rationing.
Yup, basic Econ 101, the subject libs keep failing.

Flawed.

The need for medical attention does not rise with lowering costs. To think that people won't get sick or injured if the cost for treatment is too high is pretty much retarded.

Health care is not a commodity.

Fuck.

Quick jump in drive by....my loony relative thinks she has lots of stuff wrong with her and is at the clinic all the time. It is mostly in her head. She doesn't need medical attention, but she gets it for free...so she gets it.

 

[paperview]

Holy crap. They have a freaking website to show the freaking waiting times?!

Well, at least they're up front about it. Not that most people have a ton of choices.

.

Did you bother to click? Generally, immediate needs are met.

That's for elective surgeries.

It's not like the wait line at the Emergency Hospital giving you out a number.

How is the data collected?

Yep, sure did click on it.

Example: Pedicatric Services, appendectomy for a kid, want that done right away. It says that 50% receive services within 6.9 to 9.3 weeks. Breast biopsy, want that done right away, 50% receive services within 2.0 to 16.1 weeks. Looked at several others, too.
...

.

I don't think you're reading that right.

http://www.health.gov.bc.ca/swt/faces/Wooden.jsp

In addition, that is for elective surgery.

 

[paperview]

I don't care what you link for BC says, it's got nothing to do with what my family is dealing with in Ontario.

Ontario Wait Times

Ontario Wait Times

Pretty much what I said above, 186 days is the provincial average, not counting the wait time to see the specialist before making the appt.

Thanks for proving my point.

Must be low priority in your mother in law's case.

Wait Times - Emergency Rooms - Ministry Programs - Health Care Professionals - MOHLTC

 

[LoneLaugher]

Holy crap. They have a freaking website to show the freaking waiting times?!

Well, at least they're up front about it. Not that most people have a ton of choices.

.

Did you bother to click? Generally, immediate needs are met.

That's for elective surgeries.

It's not like the wait line at the Emergency Hospital giving you out a number.

How is the data collected?

Yep, sure did click on it.

Example: Pedicatric Services, appendectomy for a kid, want that done right away. It says that 50% receive services within 6.9 to 9.3 weeks. Breast biopsy, want that done right away, 50% receive services within 2.0 to 16.1 weeks. Looked at several others, too.

My guess is that you're going to defend the system no matter what (I can only imagine your affection for and devotion to the federal government bureaucracy), so I won't burn a great deal of effort on this.

The answers to a good health care system are out there, but unfortunately they come from both "sides" of the debate and we continue to be paralyzed in a simplistic, binary way of looking at it. Like everything else.

.

Bullshit.

The defense of single payer is something you will get from majority of citizens from nearly every modern industrialized nation in the world. It is not some affection or devotion to authority or bureaucracy. The popularity of single payer systems Is not the result of peons submitting to the will of dictators. It is the result of representative governments submitting to the will of the people.

Your last paragraph is word salad. You suggest that the answers will be found in compromise between "both sides of the debate" and that these two sides are unwilling to consider the views of the other.

You seem to miss the fact that the ACA is exactly the result of compromise between the two sides.. It is hardly "the answer".

 

[LoneLaugher]

If we go down this street I hope they set up a medical innovation fund of a few billion/year.

We will need it to remain number one in research and devices.

We are going down this street. And "they" is "we".

 

[ba1614]

Ontario Wait Times

Ontario Wait Times

Pretty much what I said above, 186 days is the provincial average, not counting the wait time to see the specialist before making the appt.

Thanks for proving my point.

Must be low priority in your mother in law's case.

Wait Times - Emergency Rooms - Ministry Programs - Health Care Professionals - MOHLTC

Yes my Mom inlaw must be low priority, she can't hardly walk, so she can wait 6 months. It takes a slip and fall for a broken hip to get in quicker.

And that's a good thing to you? lol

EDIT keep going though and posting your endless defending of a failed system, it is entertaining.

 

[chikenwing]

You seem to miss the fact that the ACA is exactly the result of compromise between the two sides.. It is hardly "the answer".


And not one vote was cast buy anyone BUT the Dems to get this turd past????!!!!!


How could compromise be an appropriate descriptor in a rational world?

 

[ba1614]

So just so I understand this correctly, the folks who put Canada up as a bastion of healthcare are ok with waiting for 6 months for a hip replacement if you can't walk, (not counting the approx 3 month wait to see a specialist before even making the apt), just so long as you get in quick if you fall and break your hip?

That is what you parrot as "great"?

 

[OODA_Loop]

Canada did it one Province at a time in the beginning. Trial and error. We will get there.

And the result is a right to a waiting list, not healthcare.

Um........that is not true.

I know that you have heard that many, many times. I know that you believe it to be true. However, if you were to spend an honest hour researching the matter, you would no doubt discover that Canadians are very satisfied with their health care system. You would learn that the talking point about waiting times is largely without substantiation. You would also find out that Candians do not, as is widely believed in your circles, flock to America for medical attention because they cannot get it at home.

I know......this is something that you are not interested in checking out. I understand.

The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought
medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011, as wait times increased 104
percent — more than double — compared with statistics from 1993.

Report: Thousands fled Canada for health care in 2011 | The Daily Caller

 

[Mac1958]

.

No waiting times matter, no amount of people seeking outside treatment matters.

Some just love them some government, the more the better, the government provides them with a warm, loving feeling, and they will defend it like they would defend any other loved one, like a beloved member of the family.

Period.

.

 

[ba1614]

.

No waiting times matter, no amount of people seeking outside treatment matters.

Some just love them some government, the more the better, the government provides them with a warm, loving feeling, and they will defend it like they would defend any other loved one, like a beloved member of the family.

Period.

.

Amen brother, the answer to these nuts is always more government, and that's sad.

 

[LoneLaugher]

So just so I understand this correctly, the folks who put Canada up as a bastion of healthcare are ok with waiting for 6 months for a hip replacement if you can't walk, (not counting the approx 3 month wait to see a specialist before even making the apt), just so long as you get in quick if you fall and break your hip?

That is what you parrot as "great"?

Waiting 6 months beats not getting it at all because you do not have the money to pay for it.

There are Americans who need a hip replacement and cannot get one at all without this law. This is where you guys fuck up. It is a flawed argument.

 

[ba1614]

So just so I understand this correctly, the folks who put Canada up as a bastion of healthcare are ok with waiting for 6 months for a hip replacement if you can't walk, (not counting the approx 3 month wait to see a specialist before even making the apt), just so long as you get in quick if you fall and break your hip?

That is what you parrot as "great"?

Waiting 6 months beats not getting it at all because you do not have the money to pay for it.

There are Americans who need a hip replacement and cannot get one at all without this law. This is where you guys fuck up. It is a flawed argument.

What Americans need one who can't get one?

EDIT: Not to mention you called me out saying my wait time statement was wrong, now you say "it's better than nothing" lol

 

[Seawytch]

I'm quite confident that when we finally switch to a single payer system like the rest of the developed world, we'll do it better. We are Americans after all. I'm sure our universal healthcare system will leave plenty of room for insurance companies that offer supplemental plans.

 

[ba1614]

I'm quite confident that when we finally switch to a single payer system like the rest of the developed world, we'll do it better. We are Americans after all. I'm sure our universal healthcare system will leave plenty of room for insurance companies that offer supplemental plans.

lol yes because everything the American government does is so damned efficient. lmfao,

 

[Seawytch]

I'm quite confident that when we finally switch to a single payer system like the rest of the developed world, we'll do it better. We are Americans after all. I'm sure our universal healthcare system will leave plenty of room for insurance companies that offer supplemental plans.

lol yes because everything the American government does is so damned efficient. lmfao,

Not everything, but Medicare works pretty great. Medicare for all and the insurance companies will survive...selling supplements.

 

[ba1614]

I'm quite confident that when we finally switch to a single payer system like the rest of the developed world, we'll do it better. We are Americans after all. I'm sure our universal healthcare system will leave plenty of room for insurance companies that offer supplemental plans.

lol yes because everything the American government does is so damned efficient. lmfao,

Not everything, but Medicare works pretty great. Medicare for all and the insurance companies will survive...selling supplements.

Then why didn't we just expand Medicare to cover the few who couldn't get healthcare and save ourselves revamping the entire system, that worked for the vast majority?

 

[thanatos144]

First if Vermont wants to spend that kind of money on shity care let them. We are the United STATES of America meaning states have the power to do this for themselves. Second only fucking idiots who ignore stats think single payer works. In order for the USA to use it we would have to cut spending like Canada did and still we cant afford it. Hell Canada cant afford their single payer.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Canada did it one Province at a time in the beginning. Trial and error. We will get there.

And the result is a right to a waiting list, not healthcare.

You are entitled to your wrong opinion. I suspect you are not telling us the whole story. Refer to #8 above, then tell us what is really going on.