Zone1 Which came first, Christianity or Judaism?

[hobelim]

oh

Oh ---so you admit the FACT that Jesus was not a HATED man that big shots wanted to
KILL------he was just a tolerated local nut. That's interesting. Historically it WAS noted
that Caiaphas was a Roman shill and despised

Jesus wasn't denounced by the religious authorities because he was hated. He was ridiculed, slandered, despised, persecuted, rejected, and crucified because he was loved, by the people.

"If this guy isn't stopped he will win over the entire nation, if we arrest him the people will revolt."

But yes, at first Jesus was just a tolerated nut job by the Jewish authorities just like every Jew were tolerated nut jobs by the Roman authorities until they figured out the complicated metaphors that Jesus was using like John the baptist who called the religious elite a brood of vipers.

And at the time the hidden meaning of the law was kept secret by those same religious authorities from everyone including the Jewish laity so when they realized that Jesus wasn't coo coo for coco puffs and started 'opening the eyes of the blind', 'curing the paralyzed', and 'raising the dead' they understood that their smooth and easy lives were threatened. If everyone knew the secrets of the kingdom of Heaven there was no need for the religious elite or the corruption of temple worship.

To the Romans the whole opera was just funny. People who were afraid of bacon arguing with a guy who claimed to come down from the sky. Hysterically funny until the social disruptions and their own realization that no Jew crazy or respected was ever going to pay homage to Caesar.

Just like the Jewish authorities realized that the only way to stop the social movement was to kill Jesus, when the Romans realized they could never control the Jewish nation they destroyed it.

Even though once they were all just tolerated nut jobs of no account......

 

[hobelim]

the talmud which ignores the event and
Jesus, COMPLETELY

"The rabbis of the talmud had a hazy memory of Jesus and embellished upon it in order to villainize him."

Some 50 to 60 years after the great Pharisaic victory of the Hasmoneans, in which Pharisees rebelled against the Greek-Syrians and gained the monarchy, these Pharisee rabbis returned to a country full of heretical sects that had either integrated aspects of Hellenist paganism into their religion or had, in an attempt to repel all unproven influence, rejected the traditions of the rabbis. The Pharisees who remembered the prominence in which they had so recently been held were now witnesses to the disintegration of their religious society.

While returning, Yeshu misunderstood one of his teacher's remarks and said something that demonstrated that he was interested in and looking at married women. As sexual promiscuity was a sign of many of the Hellenist sects, R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah suspected his student of being yet another leader influenced by Hellenism and had him excommunicated [this hasty conclusion was condemned by the Talmud a few lines before our passage].

After many attempts by Yeshu to reconcile with his mentor, R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah was finally ready. However, Yeshu approached him while he was reciting Shema, the most important part of the morning prayer during which he could not stop to speak. He motioned to Yeshu with his hand which was misinterpreted as a signal to go away. Yeshu finally gave up and fulfilled his teacher's suspicion. He adopted a pagan religion and went on to create his own sect of Judaism and lead many Jews astray.

The Jesus Narrative In The Talmud

There are four main passages in the Talmud that are alleged by some to discuss the story of Jesus' life and death. Let's find out more in this post.

jewsforjudaism.org

 

[rosends]

"The rabbis of the talmud had a hazy memory of Jesus and embellished upon it in order to villainize him."

Some 50 to 60 years after the great Pharisaic victory of the Hasmoneans, in which Pharisees rebelled against the Greek-Syrians and gained the monarchy, these Pharisee rabbis returned to a country full of heretical sects that had either integrated aspects of Hellenist paganism into their religion or had, in an attempt to repel all unproven influence, rejected the traditions of the rabbis. The Pharisees who remembered the prominence in which they had so recently been held were now witnesses to the disintegration of their religious society.

While returning, Yeshu misunderstood one of his teacher's remarks and said something that demonstrated that he was interested in and looking at married women. As sexual promiscuity was a sign of many of the Hellenist sects, R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah suspected his student of being yet another leader influenced by Hellenism and had him excommunicated [this hasty conclusion was condemned by the Talmud a few lines before our passage].

After many attempts by Yeshu to reconcile with his mentor, R. Yehoshua Ben Perachiah was finally ready. However, Yeshu approached him while he was reciting Shema, the most important part of the morning prayer during which he could not stop to speak. He motioned to Yeshu with his hand which was misinterpreted as a signal to go away. Yeshu finally gave up and fulfilled his teacher's suspicion. He adopted a pagan religion and went on to create his own sect of Judaism and lead many Jews astray.

The Jesus Narrative In The Talmud

There are four main passages in the Talmud that are alleged by some to discuss the story of Jesus' life and death. Let's find out more in this post.

jewsforjudaism.org

I like how you led with a quote from the website that is filed under "theories" but not the part which shows that the Yeshu character in the text cannot be Jesus.

 

[hobelim]

I like how you led with a quote from the website that is filed under "theories" but not the part which shows that the Yeshu character in the text cannot be Jesus.

It shows a discrepancy in the timeline but it does not say that it cannot be Jesus, it says that "Other than the name it does not fit into anything we know about Jesus" which is patently false.

except if 'we', whoever we is, never read or understood the gospels...

I like how you had nothing to say about what I posted about kosher law, but responded to this..lol

Did you know that the Jerusalem Talmud was redacted in about the year 350 by Rav Muna and Rav Yossi in the Land of Israel under the watchful eyes of roman authorities. Just 25 years after Rome unleashed on the world a false Jesus, a god made man made matzo made by human hands.

It doesn't take a genius to know that they would have obscured or edited out, for national security reasons, lol, anything good or bad that showed that Jesus was just an extraordinary Jewish man.

 

[rosends]

It shows a discrepancy in the timeline but it does not say that it cannot be Jesus, it says that "Other than the name it does not fit into anything we know about Jesus" which is patently false.

except if 'we', whoever we is, never read or understood the gospels...

I like how you had nothing to say about what I posted about kosher law, but responded to this..lol

It does say it cannot be Jesus. Did you not read item #1 under "problems"?

It reads, "Yeshu lived about a century before Jesus." You still want to insist it is Jesus? There are other problems listed which preclude this as referring to Jesus.

You object to the "what WE know" -- so are you saying that you know that "Yeshu practiced magic and deceived and led Israel astray" so the description fits?

Your claim about kosher laws having to do with something beyond food is not only irrelevant and a creation of your personal theology, but it is also silly and has no basis in anything real beyond your beliefs. What specific question did you ask me that you expected I would answer?

 

[hobelim]

so are you saying that you know that "Yeshu practiced magic and deceived and led Israel astray" so the description fits?

I do know thats exactly what his philosophical enemies said, according to the gospels which fits perfectly with what you say doesn't fit.

 

[rosends]

I do know thats exactly what his philosophical enemies said, according to the gospels which fits perfectly with what you say doesn't fit.

so his "enemies" spoke of someone alive 100 years before he was and ascribed to him a set of behaviors that is NOT what you see in his behavior and from this you decide that it is speaking of him.

Got it.

 

[hobelim]

Your claim about kosher laws having to do with something beyond food is not only irrelevant and a creation of your personal theology, but it is also silly and has no basis in anything real beyond your beliefs.

What is silly is the teaching that 'believers' can eat their way into righteous....its as silly a christianity believing they will receive eternal life, the reward of the righteous, by eating Jesus.

 

[rosends]

What is silly is the teaching that 'believers' can eat their way into righteous....its as silly a christianity believing they will receive eternal life, the reward of the righteous, by eating Jesus.

Good thing Judaism doesn't teach that anyone can "eat their way into righteous".

 

[hobelim]

so his "enemies" spoke of someone alive 100 years before he was and ascribed to him a set of behaviors that is NOT what you see in his behavior and from this you decide that it is speaking of him.

Got it.

No, his contemporary enemies spoke of the guy who was publicly humiliating them for the edification of the people, by ridiculing the irrational practice and gross misunderstanding of the words and subjects in divine Law by teaching and considering it a religious duty to eat or abstain from certain food, according to the gospels, which predate by centuries the redacted Talmud

Jesus was publicly slaughtering he goats without blemish for the expiation of sin. No farm animals, no corrupt priesthood, no fancy butchers in fancy clothes, no lawyers, no police, no executioners, no judges, no tithing, no taxes, no fees, no fines, no blood, no deception, no temple required.

 

[rosends]

No, his contemporary enemies spoke of the guy who was publicly humiliating them for the edification of the people, according to the gospels, which predate by centuries the redacted Talmud

This is indeed your belief. It has no bearing on what the talmud actually is, but have fun with that belief.

 

[rosends]

Of course you do. If someone ate a pork roast, and never apologized, would any Orthodox Jew consider them righteous? If they continued to do that every Saturday what would happen?

The word "righteous" would be irrelevant. The question might be whether one would say the person as "having sinned". But that doesn't mean that one eats his "way into righteous." Does driving the speed limit make someone "drive his way into righteous"?

 

[AsherN]

Of course you do. If a member ate a pork roast, and never apologized, would any Orthodox Jew consider them righteous? If they continued to do that every Saturday what would happen?

Nothing would happen. That would be a transgression between that person and G-d.

 

[hobelim]

Good thing Judaism doesn't teach that anyone can "eat their way into righteous".

Of course you do. If a member ate a pork roast, and never apologized, would any brach or sect of Orthodox Jews consider them righteous? If they continued to do that every Saturday, and taught others to do the same because kosher law is not about food, what would happen?

Would they make him the top dietician? Promote him to grand rabbi? Change their ways? pft.

 

[hobelim]

Nothing would happen. That would be a transgression between that person and G-d.

Nothing would happen? lol.... would they be considered righteous? Ritually impure? Nothing?

 

[rosends]

Of course you do. If a member ate a pork roast, and never apologized, would any brach or sect of Orthodox Jews consider them righteous? If they continued to do that every Saturday, and taught others to do the same because kosher law is not about food, what would happen?

Would they make him the top dietician? Promote him to grand rabbi? Change their ways? pft.

Why are you telling me what I teach? Since when are you an expert on my beliefs and practices? Why do you think you know Judaism better than I?

Asking the same question again about the word "righteous" (while ignoring what I wrote in the previous answer) doesn't advance understanding.

If someone ate non-kosher food no one would stop him. How would he be a "grand rabbi"? Is he a rabbi in the first place?

 

[AsherN]

Nothing would happen? lol.... would they be considered righteous?

What do you think would happen if ate a pork roast?

 

[hobelim]

What do you think would happen if ate a pork roast?

You would like it? It certainly isn't vile and loathsome. It certainly doesn't defile and contaminate anyone. Unclean teaching and degrading practices are vile and loathsome, defile and contaminate the mind. The question is would a member of an orthodox community who constantly violates the common literal understanding of Kosher law be considered righteous by an orthodox community?

Its a simple question.

 

[AsherN]

You would like it? Would a member of an orthodaox community who unrepentantly violates the common understanding of Kosher law be considered righteous by an orthodox community.

Its a simple question.

Considering we don't really have this concept of "righteous" like Christians do, it's a moot point.

 

[hobelim]

Considering we don't really have this concept of "righteous" like Christians do, it's a moot point.

No concept of righteous? I thought the next world is the reward of the righteous.

Are you an antisemite pretending to be Jewish to make them look bad?